The Energon Pub

First of all, I'm not a necromancer

I've just joined a Waffen SS re-enactment group that portrays the 12th SS Division "Hitlerjugend". I've always had a strong interest in World War Two, especially the Axis side as I have more family on that side than on the Allied.

Now, I've only had one person accuse me of being a Nazi so far (not on this site), and I would like to emphasise that I am nota follower of National Socialism or seeking to spread or promote their ideas. I simply believe that the German soldier has a right to history just as much as the Allied one.

What do you guys think? Should the Waffen SS be re-enacted or is it best left in history?

Well, since you understand the ramifications of what happened, and I assume that you're not doing this out of some sick idolization thing, I don't see what's wrong with it. Lots of respectable people have played Nazis before.

I'd say it depends what sort of thing you're reinacting and how seriously it's being taken by those involved.

I understand your point ,but there were many German units in WWII that weren't SS. Is there re-enactment groups for any of those units?

High Command wrote:I'd say it depends what sort of thing you're reinacting and how seriously it's being taken by those involved.

Well, our group aims to portray the front-line soldier, i.e. we do front-line combat and milling around in the rear. No roundups or executions or anything.

I understand your point ,but there were many German units in WWII that weren't SS. Is there re-enactment groups for any of those units?

Quite right, there were plenty of WW2 German units that were not comprised of SS members. There are re-enactment groups that deal with those, but I wanted to join this one. What swung me was the working half-track

Ah, so you joined that group for the toys.

In that case I recoment that you take G1 Megatron with you next time since the walther p38 was a sidearm used by the Germans in WW2 along with the more recognisable luger.

doomboy536 wrote:

High Command wrote:I'd say it depends what sort of thing you're reinacting and how seriously it's being taken by those involved.

Well, our group aims to portray the front-line soldier, i.e. we do front-line combat and milling around in the rear. No roundups or executions or anything.

I understand your point ,but there were many German units in WWII that weren't SS. Is there re-enactment groups for any of those units?

Quite right, there were plenty of WW2 German units that were not comprised of SS members. There are re-enactment groups that deal with those, but I wanted to join this one. What swung me was the working half-track

What would really have my eyeballs popping: a working King Tiger tank.

doomboy536 wrote:

High Command wrote:I'd say it depends what sort of thing you're reinacting and how seriously it's being taken by those involved.

Well, our group aims to portray the front-line soldier, i.e. we do front-line combat and milling around in the rear. No roundups or executions or anything.

I think if you're going to do it, you have to do it accurately.

This will of course mean showing just how frontline executions were done as Germany moved through Europe, exactly what the effects were of border aggression on the ability of Germany's neighbors to supply food, and the training required to put down unrest from civilians who were having their land taken from them.

otherwise, it's just an excuse to dress up and play Nazi. Really, don't take my statement as a personal affront to you. I'm not anti-war or anything of the such. Even you can admit, there are assuredly sympathizers in the ranks of every war-reinactment group. Not giving the full story, who the soliders were, why they were there, and what they were doing means representing something historically slanted.

Must admit, Counterpunch does have a point, but with the current notions of Political correctness, we cannot portray things accurately.

In an ideal world, we would be able to accurately portray the Nazis, the people involved would understand that what they are inacting is history, and that morally it is wrong. Those that would watch it would understand that those doing it would be doing it out of a genuine love of history, both good and bad and not some sense of National socialistic pride or anything like that.

But unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

Kudos for you having the balls to do it doomboy, i understand why you're doing it but you'll have to understand that no matter what, there WILL be people who think you're doing it for all the wrong reasons..

Lol, just be glad you're not poor prince Harry :p

HC, and the rest of the Britianians, did you see that thing on the TV last year, the docu-dramary thing about hitler's last 3(or 5?) days, it really was very moving(at least for me),and left a rather poingent message, that just becuase a man can commit atrocities doesn't make him less of a human being. just becuase a man is a monster doesn't mean he's a no longer a man.

doomboy536 wrote:First of all, I'm not a necromancer

I've just joined a Waffen SS re-enactment group that portrays the 12th SS Division "Hitlerjugend". I've always had a strong interest in World War Two, especially the Axis side as I have more family on that side than on the Allied.

Now, I've only had one person accuse me of being a Nazi so far (not on this site), and I would like to emphasise that I am nota follower of National Socialism or seeking to spread or promote their ideas. I simply believe that the German soldier has a right to history just as much as the Allied one.

What do you guys think? Should the Waffen SS be re-enacted or is it best left in history?

Those that do not learn history, are doomed to repeat it.

My interest in WWII lies in the technology developed during the era: jet engines, radar, stealth technology, rocket engines, etc.

It was a terrible thing, war. But, for me, utterly fascinating, and well worth our memory.

YouFearGalvatron wrote:

doomboy536 wrote:First of all, I'm not a necromancer

I've just joined a Waffen SS re-enactment group that portrays the 12th SS Division "Hitlerjugend". I've always had a strong interest in World War Two, especially the Axis side as I have more family on that side than on the Allied.

Now, I've only had one person accuse me of being a Nazi so far (not on this site), and I would like to emphasise that I am nota follower of National Socialism or seeking to spread or promote their ideas. I simply believe that the German soldier has a right to history just as much as the Allied one.

What do you guys think? Should the Waffen SS be re-enacted or is it best left in history?

Those that do not learn history, are doomed to repeat it.

My interest in WWII lies in the technology developed during the era: jet engines, radar, stealth technology, rocket engines, etc.

It was a terrible thing, war. But, for me, utterly fascinating, and well worth our memory.

You'll find as a species our greatest thoughts come to us when we are trying to invent better ways of killing each other.

Do you get to meet Erwin Rommel? Because everyone likes Erwin Rommel, despite the fact that he was a Nazi. (A Nazi that hated Hitler and the Holocaust, but a Nazi nonetheless)

Hell, Patton liked Rommel, and Patton hated everybody!

I think you meant bringing Starscream back to life.

doomboy356 wrote:First of all, I'm not a necromancer

I've just joined a Waffen SS re-enactment group that portrays the 12th SS Division "Hitlerjugend". I've always had a strong interest in World War Two, especially the Axis side as I have more family on that side than on the Allied.

Now, I've only had one person accuse me of being a Nazi so far (not on this site), and I would like to emphasise that I am nota follower of National Socialism or seeking to spread or promote their ideas. I simply believe that the German soldier has a right to history just as much as the Allied one.

What do you guys think? Should the Waffen SS be re-enacted or is it best left in history?

As long as it's historically accurate and not pertaining to a particular context in which you're praising the soldiers for the ideals they stood behind, why not?

Though, it's to be expected there will be certain people who have an problem with it due to that automatic knee-jerk reaction to the prescence of Nazi soldiers possibly being percieved in a positive light.

It's not the Nazi thing that puzzles me, but the whole reenactment of war in general. Why go to any length or expense to reenact a war from decades ago? If you're jonesing for war, there are several actual armed conflicts going on right now that you could enlist in to scratch that itch. War isn't exactly a pleasant thing that most people who lived through them relish reliving the memories of, much less recreating them.

Joking Saint wrote:It's not the Nazi thing that puzzles me, but the whole reenactment of war in general. Why go to any length or expense to reenact a war from decades ago? If you're jonesing for war, there are several actual armed conflicts going on right now that you could enlist in to scratch that itch. War isn't exactly a pleasant thing that most people who lived through them relish reliving the memories of, much less recreating them.

I cannot give you a definite answer, only the way I feel about it. I my case I find old wars, WWII and previous, as far back as history goes, fo the strategies and developments.

Unlike modern conflicts where the individual batalions' actions hardly influenced the outcome, the further back you go the heavier the role played by the individuals become.

Both my grandfathers fought in WWII, one in Europe and the other in South America. And both would tell stories of the conflict, from both sides -Allies and Axis-. I guess I canot help but be drawn to try to know more about it, now that they oth passed away.

History is moved by War. The cruelest the war, the more spinoff progress it brings. It cannot be dismissed, much less ignored.

My grandad lost half of his family in the WWII even if he was brought up as a NAZI he hates everithing that has something to do with it. He has seen wat efekt it had, he has witnesst the execution of his older brother, his cousing and his uncle by Sovijet solgers just becows they were Germans. The rape and murder of his jungest sister, he had to cary they'r corpsis away and clean the place bevor they true him and teh rest of his family out of ther home. And wy? Becows they were Germans, becows his dad was a solger. They had lost the war the SS just folowed orders most of them didn't even like wat they wer doing, but they had to, ore els.... Wat you'r doing, youst brings shame upon you'r ancestors, do you think they wanted that to happen? Do you think they were praude for the things they did? do you realy think so? I detest war just as my grandfather, everybody who glorifies war and and want's to recreate it for fun disgusts me.

As a fellow re-enactor in both Kompanie 1 and La Columna - 12th SS Hitlerjugend and Spanish Civil War republicans respectively - allow me to present a defense of re-enactment.

Firstly, it performs a vital educative role. The number of people who attend events with re-enactors and learn things is really quite large. This is good. People are not aware of even the immediate history of their own nations, and the ins and outs of 20th century history is lost on many. Us re-enactors can help redress that balance in a manner which is much more engaging and interesting than school, books, or university.

Secondly, when I put on my Italian camouflage panzer overalls, my M43 oakleaf palm-overprint field cap, my SS belt with its 'Meine Ehre Heisst Treue' motto, and step out as a member of the 25. PzGrn Rgt, 12. SS (HJ)... I'm pretending. I'm no more a National Socialist than the next person. From the Pike and Shot of the Sealed Knot, to the men of the 18th Century Redcoats and the squaddies in Forces 80, we're all pretending. It's a masquerade, representing periods in military history which interest us and provide us with hours of relaxation and amusement.

Thirdly, we are no more glorifying war than Erich maria Remarque did. If anything, we're showing people a little of the horrors; after all when you're sitting in the pissing rain with no cover and trying to keep warm around a fire while the public comes round in gore-tex and umbrellas... well. Then there's the discussions I have as part of La Columna that talk about the effects of bullets on the human body (we have an aid post, you see).

Finally, when it comes to 'scratching the war itch', that's probably a big part of it. I would LOVE to join the armed forces and go to Iraq, in fact I want to, but they won't let me because of my anaphylaxis. Apparently not being able to eat ration packs is some sort of issue... rubbish. Anyway, re-enactment has, like wargaming, a considerable minority of soldiers and ex-soldiers involved.

Certainly re-enactment is an odd hobby, but at heart it is just that - a hobby. We are a harmless bunch of men and women who enjoy dressing up and bringing history to life; from the Romans of the 1st Century AD to the Falklands War, you'll find re-enactment.

What's so bad about that?

As far as asking if the Waffen-SS were proud of their military record... yes, they were. You only have to read works of oral history like 'My Honour Is My Loyalty'. Soldiers are justly proud of their acts of heroism, regardless of the side they're on. Acts of atrocity - on any side - not so much, after the fact. At the time, however, soldiers' feelings are different. Just look at the oral history to come out of Vietnam, for example.

Dead Metal wrote:My grandad lost half of his family in the WWII even if he was brought up as a NAZI he hates everithing that has something to do with it. He has seen wat efekt it had, he has witnesst the execution of his older brother, his cousing and his uncle by Sovijet solgers just becows they were Germans. The rape and murder of his jungest sister, he had to cary they'r corpsis away and clean the place bevor they true him and teh rest of his family out of ther home. And wy? Becows they were Germans, becows his dad was a solger. They had lost the war the SS just folowed orders most of them didn't even like wat they wer doing, but they had to, ore els.... Wat you'r doing, youst brings shame upon you'r ancestors, do you think they wanted that to happen? Do you think they were praude for the things they did? do you realy think so? I detest war just as my grandfather, everybody who glorifies war and and want's to recreate it for fun disgusts me.

To simply say, to forget the past is to make the mistakes of the past. So to remember is vital of progress, which is what reenactments do.

As well, I'm not necessarily against war-- I would certainly take it over a violent, suppressive, stagnating peace, but I would say that, with such experience, to hate the things that usually come with war is quite reasonable. I would say that what those soldiers did to your family was outside any bounds of honor.

But I believe that most like the idea of war as the embodiment of the ultimate challenge-- the ultimate conflict-- which is merely something for man to overcome; life in itself strives to efficate the world, and thus conflict comes to be exhilaration. Though romantisizing is not great for rational though, it is understandable in that term of context.

An aside: it's interesting to see you back, KTB 9000-- not sure how to define that 'interesting', but conflict in itself is something mankind generally thrives upon, which you certainly provide. Welcome back.

Dead Metal wrote:Wat you'r doing, youst brings shame upon you'r ancestors, do you think they wanted that to happen? Do you think they were praude for the things they did? do you realy think so? I detest war just as my grandfather, everybody who glorifies war and and want's to recreate it for fun disgusts me.

I hardly think that re-enactment brings shame upon my ancestors. My Grandad saw action in Palestine in 1946-7, and my Sienar was in the Merchant Navy and had three ships sunk under him on the Atlantic Convoys. My great-grandad was captured at the Somme and later gassed, and like most Britons I'm fairly sure I've got quite a lengthy military history. However, the wishes of soldiers tend to run along the lines of "Christ, I hope this doesn't happen again" - and re-enactment certainly isn't the same thing. For one, if it was, we'd use live rounds and shoot people for real.

I, too, detest war - yes, despite wanting to go to Iraq, that's for another thread if you don't mind - and have protested against them since I was a wee mite. Re-enactment is not war. War is bloody, unreasonable, vast, painful, destructive, smelly, and horrific. Re-enactment is done for fun and relaxation, by and large by members of the working class, and you'd be hard pushed to find any who glorify the stuff that the people we recreate went through.

The Avatar of Man wrote:I'm not necessarily against war-- I would certainly take it over a violent, suppressive, stagnating peace, but I would say that, with such experience, to hate the things that usually come with war is quite reasonable. ... I believe that most like the idea of war as the embodiment of the ultimate challenge-- the ultimate conflict-- which is merely something for man to overcome

The romanticisation of war as challenge, as the ultimate test of manhood and of a culture, is not a new idea and it is one of the reasons that many people continue to join the armed forces. War is never just, but sometimes necessary; and is always hideously violent by its very nature. Re-enactment is simply a method of trying to understand the way people who were involved lived and died - albeit with the knowledge that at 5 o' clock when the public have gone home we can break out the beer and the raincoats and return to the 21st Century. To equate the two as Dead Metal has is to miss the point by a considerable distance.

The Avatar of Man wrote:An aside: it's interesting to see you back, KTB 9000-- not sure how to define that 'interesting', but conflict in itself is something mankind generally thrives upon, which you certainly provide. Welcome back.

I was wondering if anyone would remember me.

And here I thought you were banned.

I can't wait to see how you'll piss someone off next, KTB.

Banned? Moi? Never!

Joking Saint wrote:It's not the Nazi thing that puzzles me, but the whole reenactment of war in general. Why go to any length or expense to reenact a war from decades ago? If you're jonesing for war, there are several actual armed conflicts going on right now that you could enlist in to scratch that itch. War isn't exactly a pleasant thing that most people who lived through them relish reliving the memories of, much less recreating them.

Agreed. Being German, I have a hard time understanding your fascination with that thing.