The Energon Pub

Dark Zarak wrote:What is that picture of?

Bison skulls?


It's sad, but they're on the rise again. Go to Montana, one of the reddest states of the union, they have buffalo preserves, where they're protected. Some of them are killed though, but it's all controled to ensure that they come back again. They could have been lost. It's frightening to think how close they came.

Oh, and Buffalo burgers are soooo damn good. I don't see any hypocrisy there because of the situation with the preserves.

Yep. They're now up to 350,000, all descended from exactly 2 males, though 250,000 are reserved for human consumption, which isn't too bad-- I enjoy the burgers. Meatier taste.

Dark Zarak wrote:

Bruciarsi wrote:On thing thats gets me is eating animals to the point of extinction. For me as long as the population is sustained then eat the thing. To many species have meet their ends at the hands humans whos foresight is blinded by greed.
Personally there are animals i would perfer not to eat but i dont hold that against those who do.
In my view you either are ok with eating them all or none. And your reasons for not eating meat cant be because you cant kill a living thing and then go out and kill and eat other living organisms like plants and feel high and mighty just because it didnt scream.

So if you were in Vietnam, would you eat dog, and then go home and pet your new puppy?

You have to have standards about what to eat and not eat. Some animals are too close to us to eat. Dogs, Cats, Pork perhaps, primates, whales, dolphins...

Sentence in bold answers most of that.

I do draw the line on what meat i eat however but i dont think you can go eating one animal and condem someone eating another.
As stated above i object to eating a species to the point of extinction. Thats the only time i really have a go at someone. And i believe on siding with caution. If it be proved or disproved that a species is in danger then play it safe.

Bruciarsi wrote:

Dark Zarak wrote:

Bruciarsi wrote:On thing thats gets me is eating animals to the point of extinction. For me as long as the population is sustained then eat the thing. To many species have meet their ends at the hands humans whos foresight is blinded by greed.
Personally there are animals i would perfer not to eat but i dont hold that against those who do.
In my view you either are ok with eating them all or none. And your reasons for not eating meat cant be because you cant kill a living thing and then go out and kill and eat other living organisms like plants and feel high and mighty just because it didnt scream.

So if you were in Vietnam, would you eat dog, and then go home and pet your new puppy?

You have to have standards about what to eat and not eat. Some animals are too close to us to eat. Dogs, Cats, Pork perhaps, primates, whales, dolphins...

Sentence in bold answers most of that.

I do draw the line on what meat i eat however but i dont think you can go eating one animal and condem someone eating another.
As stated above i object to eating a species to the point of extinction. Thats the only time i really have a go at someone. And i believe on siding with caution. If it be proved or disproved that a species is in danger then play it safe.

Well, I was going after your all or none statement right under your bolds. So you would, in fact, hold off eating certain animals. Yet it doesn't disgust you when other people eat those animals.

Dark Zarak wrote:Well, I was going after your all or none statement right under your bolds. So you would, in fact, hold off eating certain animals. Yet it doesn't disgust you when other people eat those animals.

How does arguing personal food preferences address whether or not it's cruel to kill animals for food?

Its the circle of life.

Of course it's cruel to slaughter a living, breathing animal just to merely consume it. There's just simply no way around that. At least in primal times it was somewhat a neccesity to survival to seek and hunt down big game.

Not to say that I myself don't consume meat but I personally do feel guilty about it especially in the horrific ways the animals are killed which is why I'm rather selective on what I eat these days (health ramifications would also come into play here.)

Having friends who are of the vegetarian and vegan persuasion, I have lately been exposed to much good food and cuisine that is "cruelty free." As much as it tastes good though sadly I don't think I could ever stop consuming poultry, fish or dairy products. Much of my respect goes out to those that can keep up that type of lifestyle though.

Ironhidensh wrote:Its the circle of life.

And it (bowel) moves us all?

Dark Zarak wrote:

Bruciarsi wrote:

Dark Zarak wrote:

Bruciarsi wrote:On thing thats gets me is eating animals to the point of extinction. For me as long as the population is sustained then eat the thing. To many species have meet their ends at the hands humans whos foresight is blinded by greed.
Personally there are animals i would perfer not to eat but i dont hold that against those who do.
In my view you either are ok with eating them all or none. And your reasons for not eating meat cant be because you cant kill a living thing and then go out and kill and eat other living organisms like plants and feel high and mighty just because it didnt scream.

So if you were in Vietnam, would you eat dog, and then go home and pet your new puppy?

You have to have standards about what to eat and not eat. Some animals are too close to us to eat. Dogs, Cats, Pork perhaps, primates, whales, dolphins...

Sentence in bold answers most of that.

I do draw the line on what meat i eat however but i dont think you can go eating one animal and condem someone eating another.
As stated above i object to eating a species to the point of extinction. Thats the only time i really have a go at someone. And i believe on siding with caution. If it be proved or disproved that a species is in danger then play it safe.

Well, I was going after your all or none statement right under your bolds. So you would, in fact, hold off eating certain animals. Yet it doesn't disgust you when other people eat those animals.

Ah yup not the best written line there. by that i ment either your ok with people eating any animal or none at all.
And yes there are creatures i wont eat for varying reason but i dont hold that against those that do. Unless the creature is being virtually wiped out to serve peoples hunger.

what about wiping out a creature becuase it's a danger to humankind?

MMMMMmmmmmmmmm......Cheetah steaks. Goooooood
Or Giant Panda Wellington or giraffe stew. To just get a hammer and whack one of them repeatedly til they are dead or at least knocked out enough to start carving up to toss on the grill. Oh that will be the day. A magnificent feast envious to the Romans of yesteryear.
If only Africa wasn't so far away. Man I'm hungry now. I wish they made hippodogs.

DISCHARGE wrote:MMMMMmmmmmmmmm......Cheetah steaks. Goooooood
Or Giant Panda Wellington or giraffe stew. To just get a hammer and whack one of them repeatedly til they are dead or at least knocked out enough to start carving up to toss on the grill. Oh that will be the day. A magnificent feast envious to the Romans of yesteryear.
If only Africa wasn't so far away. Man I'm hungry now. I wish they made hippodogs.

Sounds good to me. There was actually an "exotic meats" restaurant here in Chicago about 25 years back, but it closed. Shame, really.

I have had rattlesnake, eel, turtle buffalo, elk and a few other things plus a little bit of scorpion. The most exotic thing I have had ever were living earthworms.

Cruelty just adds more flavour.

Hmm... This one's gonna hurt but here goes...

Neko wrote:It's life and natural progerssion. Preditors in the wild rip their kill apart most of the time so I don't really think that us killing them is really cruel, though I do feel sympathetic that they're raised to be killed.

Zombie Starscream wrote:Animals kill and eat other animals to survive. Humans kill and eat animals to survive. Animals will kill and eat humans to survive. It is the way life is.

...

But I believe PETA sometimes has a romantized view of animals, that we should not eat them and so on, but some animals if given a chance will gladly eat us.

"Call of the wild." "Survival of the fittest." People bitch and complain about how we acquire, retain and consume our food all the time. But I rarely hear people moan and groan about the wild animals doing their natural and instinctual habits.

I italicized those words to make a point. It is natural and instinctual for humans to eat as well. I realize that the main discussion point of this thread is "Is it "cruel" to slaughter animals for food?" But when predatory animals in the wild slaughter their prey, no human watching bats an eyelash. As humans, we are simply following the same "rules of the wild...", if you will, to survive. This thread, obviously, is getting away from the slaughter factor of the animals to the treatment factor.

Read on...

Zombie Starscream wrote:I would eat an animal as long as it was killed humanely. A lot of the animals killed by other animals don't die painlessly. We at least offer the animal we're going to consume, a chance at having a painless death.

...and...

Neko wrote:As long as the animals are killed in a human manner (no shoving a rod up their ass and shocking them to death, that's horrible.) I'm good.

But... how would you know how it died? The places I've been to usually tell you how the meat is prepared and what it comes with, not how they killed it. If two indentical looking hamburgers were placed before you for your consumptional enjoyment (...what?!) and you were told that one was tortured to death and the other "humanely" killed, which would you choose? "Neither." is not an option. If they both look, smell, feel and taste the same, what do you do? Why, or how, does the method of death of an animal affect it's meat for your consumption?

Kjell wrote:I just eat what I want to eat and don't eat what I don't want to eat. I don't eat dog because the culture I grew up in does not incorporate the consumption of canine meat. Were I to go to, say, Vietnam as you suggest, I would not actively go to some restaurant and order dog. Would I eat it if offered? I'm not sure. It would depend on the circumstances.

...

The cultures that eat dogs do so because they don't care about dogs. We largely don't care about pigs despite them being as bright as dogs. So we eat 'em. The idea that dogs are the reincarnated form of someone who deserved it is silly, though.

Dark Zarak wrote:Yes, but do pigs endear themselves to us? Do they make good pets? My point is that dogs are more human than pigs

So what? Here's something to think about: what if you didn't know? What if they served you a meaty something-or-other but didn't tell you what the meat source was. If it looked, smelled and tasted good and then was revealed what the meat source was... how would you react?

There's one of two ways this taste test will turn out:
*CHOMP* "Mmmm... tasty!"
"Really? 'Cause that was a Rover-burger you just inhaled."
"No kiddin'?! Wow! I had no idea!"
(or)
"Ugh. Nasty." *BARF*
"Hmm. Time to rethink the doggy-hotdog... thing."

Next...

Dark Zarak wrote:Cannibalism is out the window because it is too far removed from my state of thinking to consider in an arguement in what can and cannot be eaten. Perhaps a tribesman that practices it can explain better than I can when it is and isn't appropriate to eat someone. I would say never, otherwise I would advocate eating whales and dogs as well, which I don't. I made the assumption that eating humans is wrong, and therefore based my entire arguement off that. Both my points relate back to how close to human they are.

Just to repeat once more what I'm getting at: Certain animals are very close to human in certain ways. Eating humans is wrong. Therefore, eating those animals is wrong.

Remember that movie "Alive"? It's not that they wanted to turn on each other and fire up the grill. It's more that they wanted to survive when faced with extreme circumstances. I certainly wouldn't want to chew on someone either, but, again it comes down to "survival of the fittest".

Dark Zarak wrote:

Tammuz wrote:so it's okay to eat very young babies? or sleeping people? or people with brain damage?

That would be cannibalism, so no. And if cannibalism were not wrong: I really can't say. Maybe some tribesman somewhere could tell you.

But I've heard babies are quite good with a light wine sauce.

That's just sick and wrong, but funny all the same!

Dark Zarak wrote:

Tammuz wrote:and i still don't get on what criteria you make humans the ore complex organism.

I'm going out on a limb and saying that one cell, no matter how complicated it may be inside, is still less so than an entire vast network of trillions of them, in different forms, working together.

Dark Zarak wrote:

DISCHARGE wrote:Hhmm... are all microorganisms single cell? It's been a while since any biology.

No. Protozoans like the amoeba are single-celled. Bacteria like salmonella and ecoli are multi-celled. The next level up is fungus, then plants, then animals. Virus's are less than one cell. They are mostly DNA (RNA?) bits in capsules that spread and "rewire" your existing cells to make more viruses instead of what it should be doing.

Where to you draw the distinction? You're getting into and arguement similar to the "Is a fetus a human or not?" debate.

DesalationReborn wrote:I could personally see maybe eating a vegan or a vegitarian-- they at least pay attention to what goes down their gullet.

Funny schtuff!


If you really sit down and think about it, is the method of how an animal dies really gonna affect whether you eat it or not? If you know or not?

I'm not supporting the torture of animals in any way, shape or form. It IS wrong. But I think it's far worse if that animal is tortured, abused, what have you, and then kept alive for whatever reason. There's no need, or justification, for that.

If the animal is killed, either "humanely" or not, how is it used then? Is it just left there to rot? Dumped in a pile of other animal carcasses and burned? Or is it cut up and served as steak, bacon, ham, burger, etc.? Are the organs used? The hide? The hooves, if applicable?

Is it "cruel" to torture animals for food? Yes.

Is it "cruel" to slaughter animals for food? No.

Sorry for the long read, but "...that- that's all I gotta say 'bout that right there."


B-)

If the Bible says its ok,its ok.

Cyclonus_3009 wrote:If the Bible says its ok,its ok.

Leviticus 20:9) "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

Luke 14:26) "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

The Bible seems a bit confused on what it really wants to me.

The Avatar of Man wrote:

Cyclonus_3009 wrote:If the Bible says its ok,its ok.

Leviticus 20:9) "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

Luke 14:26) "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

The Bible seems a bit confused on what it really wants to me.

no it's quite clear we can't be a christian unless you hate your life and family, and which point he should be killed

so the basic take home message is that we should kill christians.

Tammuz wrote:

The Avatar of Man wrote:

Cyclonus_3009 wrote:If the Bible says its ok,its ok.

Leviticus 20:9) "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

Luke 14:26) "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

The Bible seems a bit confused on what it really wants to me.

no it's quite clear we can't be a christian unless you hate your life and family, and which point he should be killed

so the basic take home message is that we should kill christians.

No, you must understand when Jesus Christ came many of the rules changed,If he didn't us christian would'nt be here.

oh, and when mohammed was visited by an angel the rules changed again did they not?

Tammuz wrote:oh, and when mohammed was visited by an angel the rules changed again did they not?

A better point would be that, if Jesus changed the rules, admitting the Old and New Testaments contradict, then not everything the Bible says is true.

I'm not totally against matters of conviction to a book or personal deity, but saying, "Because the Bible says so" is like saying "My neighbor said so"-- I'll ask for some actual reasoning to back it.

I beleive in evolution. And as such, I believe we have cainine teeth for a reason, or however its spelt. Regardless, pointy cainine teeth are for eating meat. Humans have pointy cainine teeth, therefore, we should be eating meat.

If those hippies don't like it, they can go jump. Heh.

But, I had a good LOL once at a vegetarian feminazi who'd had three abortions, she called me a murderer for having a steak!!! If society can look the other way on the deaths of over 4,000 uterine kiddies every day in the states then I'm going to enjoy my meat, the bluer the better!! Essentially if killing a human isn't murder, then killing a cow isn't.

I think people need to know more about where their meat comes from. My neice is almost 5 and she doesn't know that the chicken on her plate used to be running around a farmyard or whatever. When I was 7 I tricked some kids on a school feild trip to a farm to walk round the corner to see the "cute fluffy baby chickens" instead they saw a chicken getting the axe. Hahah!!

Granted, cruetly to animals, by teh way of of torturing them for the sake of torturing them, concerns me given that its a precursor to homicidal tendancies/behaviour.

Yes, I'm crabby today.

as much as I may like animals, I still like meat too, eating meat is natural, we're omnivores, not herbivores, tigers and sharks gotta eat to live so do we.
as far as only eating certain animals and not others, if i'm starving, I don't care if an animal is as smart as or even smarter than me, if he's been a decent pet companion whatever, I'm eating him rather than starve to death. it would be the same too with a person. (while i'm not going to go out and start practicing canniblism, too many legal issues, I mean more in a survival type of sense, if i'm gonna die of starvation, species is the last thing I'm gonna worry about)

Tammuz wrote:

The Avatar of Man wrote:

Cyclonus_3009 wrote:If the Bible says its ok,its ok.

Leviticus 20:9) "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

Luke 14:26) "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

The Bible seems a bit confused on what it really wants to me.

no it's quite clear we can't be a christian unless you hate your life and family, and which point he should be killed

so the basic take home message is that we should kill christians.

What?! I thought the topic of this thread was "Is it "cruel" to slaughter animals for food?" Where does killing your family, other Christians, etc. even come in to this discussion?!

If you want to get the Bible into this discussion, then at least do so with the right verses and use them in the right context! Regarding animal abuse, check out this link from Bible.com. Regarding the topic at hand, there's the following verses:

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

There are numerous other verses in the Bible talking about animals. Peruse at your leisure, if you want.


B-)

well we disagree that if the bible says it's ok, it is indeed ok, i.e just becuase the bible says it's ok to slaughter animals for food doesn't mean it is, as the bible clearly contains contradiction and can easily be misconstued.

hey, people are animals too, least we're not vegetables