The Energon Pub

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:Ah yes, TOR, I don't know what to think of what that's all about.

It's an MMO sequel to KOTOR, from BioWare, set a few hundred years after KOTORII, using storytelling methods from Mass Effect. Every word I just said after "MMO" makes me giddy enough that I forget that I don't like playing MMOs.

OH I know, I've kept track of it since its announcement, I'm on for beta testing for it

Slayershoop wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:Ah yes, TOR, I don't know what to think of what that's all about.

It's an MMO sequel to KOTOR, from BioWare, set a few hundred years after KOTORII, using storytelling methods from Mass Effect. Every word I just said after "MMO" makes me giddy enough that I forget that I don't like playing MMOs.

OH I know, I've kept track of it since its announcement, I'm on for beta testing for it

Wait, do you mean you signed up for Beta, or you actually got into beta? The former is not that impressive, everyone's sign up for beta, even me. The latter means I have to find you, dispose of you, and then assume your identity.

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:And look where #2 got us... *cough* Phantom Menace *cough*

Traviss just about raped #1, but other authors should have more priority than Lucas, cause IMO, they can write and he can't, but he created it so nothing I can do about it.

No, they shouldn't have priority over Lucas. He created Star Wars, it's his universe, and we're all just guests. How would you feel if you created some great, big, multifaceted universe, but it was decided because you weren't a good enough writer, you were no longer allowed to decide how your universe should play out, and it was left in the hands of what amounts to fanfiction?

Depends... If I would have waited 10 years to even touch the stories, while a world-wide fanbase was formed around what I've wrote, and made it into a much larger-scale universe, I would have at least read the stuff and consulted with the galaxy-forming writers.

A similar universe-split happened in the Stargate universe, before SG-1 was out (and some published after), there were sequels written purely based on the movie, and they don't fit into the SG-1 universe at all. The difference? The number of years and novels between the movie sequels.

Slayershoop wrote:

Cyberstrike wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Cyberstrike wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:However, there are a few jedi who hated the clones with a passion, Kota and Vos being prominent ones.

I don't know about Quinlan Vos, but I think Rahm Kota is a complete moron. Starkiller could have ended the Empire right there and then and Kota stopped him. Nevermind that Palpatine killed Starkiller almost immediately after that and the Civil War raged for another six years costing countless lives and the destruction of Alderaan, because one idiot Jedi thought they shouldn't kill the most evil and powerful bastard the Galaxy has ever seen.

IMHO I think Kota wanted to kill Palpatine himself and he was mad that he couldn't do it, because he was blind and cut off from the Force.

He stopped Starkiller because Starkiller was about to kill Palpatine out of anger. In any case, Kota was an idiot who screwed the Galaxy into the Galactic Civil War, doing the exact same thing Anakin did immediately before Order 66. (Well, okay, he didn't cut anyone's arm off, but the rest pretty closely mimics the lead-in to the Purge)

Totally agree, Kota pretty much screwed everything up and then expected that everyone was fine with him.

Anyway, I'm interested to hear Cyberstrike's opinion on the original matter.

But yeah, I hate Kota >.>

It's pretty much the same as Shadowman's I just think Kota is still bitter old drunken former Jedi would wanted to kill the Emerpror and/or Vader for personal glory.

Is your opinion the same as Shadowman's on the Mandos?

I honsetly don't have much opinion on them because my knowledge on them is limited to what is stated in both of the KOTOR games. I haven't read any of the Star Wars novels and my collection Star Wars comics pretty much consist of Star Wars: Dark Empire, Star Wars: Dark Empire II, and Star Wars: Empire's End which was the first time I read about the Mandalorians (and it was basically a statement that Boba Fett was one) and learned that the Emperor's name was Palpatine.

Lucas' problem is two-fold:
One, while he's a great big picture and idea man, but he cannot write, especially dialog, and he can't direct.
- Look at ESB. It's arguably the best of the six movies, and he didn't write or direct it.

Two, he gotten so big and surrounded himself with so many Yes-men that there's no one around to say "No, that's stupid!" when he comes up with stupid things.
- Jar-Jar, the Nemodian's speech patterns, Anakin being 10 in TPM, midichlorians. The list goes on.

My biggest complaint though, was the whole "Chosen One" subplot. Okay, so the Jedi, who must number in the hundred and range the entire galaxy, have a prophesy that one will come to "bring balance to the Force". Now, since Yoda points out the Sith number "Always two, there are. No more, no less. A master, and an apprentice" and Ki-Adi says they're actually thought to be long extinct, WHY did the Jedi think this 'balancing' would work out in their favor?

Skyfire77 wrote:My biggest complaint though, was the whole "Chosen One" subplot. Okay, so the Jedi, who must number in the hundred and range the entire galaxy, have a prophesy that one will come to "bring balance to the Force". Now, since Yoda points out the Sith number "Always two, there are. No more, no less. A master, and an apprentice" and Ki-Adi says they're actually thought to be long extinct, WHY did the Jedi think this 'balancing' would work out in their favor?

Because there is no balance when the Sith are involved. The Force is not some Yin-Yang sort of deal, even though being double-sided makes it look like it. The Light Side is peace and justice, the Dark Side is unchecked power. "Balance" means the Dark Side does not exist.

It stands to reason that many Jedi didn't believe Anakin was the Chosen One.

I agree with Skyfire77, the guy is surrounded by yes-men, and the Chosen one BS Still makes absolutely no sense, Shadowman's explanation helps, but it is still convoluted. Problem is, the movies were made for kids (mostly), but then they try and throw violence and political intrigue in, and then you alienate everyone, the kids find it confusing, and the adults find it too cheesy.

Slayershoop wrote:and the Chosen one BS Still makes absolutely no sense, Shadowman's explanation helps, but it is still convoluted.

How is it convoluted? Light Side is Balance, Dark Side is Chaos. The Chosen One is meant to bring an end to the Dark Side and the Sith, thus bringing balance to the Force. It's extremely uncomplicated.

Slayershoop wrote:Problem is, the movies were made for kids (mostly), but then they try and throw violence and political intrigue in, and then you alienate everyone, the kids find it confusing, and the adults find it too cheesy.

Did you notice all the violence in the original trilogy? Vader's tendency to strangle every around him to death, the gun fight in the first five minutes of A New Hope, every movie featuring someone or something getting it's limbs cut off, Han being tortured than frozen in Carbonite. The prequels feature more fighting, the the original trilogy featured a lot more brutality.

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:and the Chosen one BS Still makes absolutely no sense, Shadowman's explanation helps, but it is still convoluted.

How is it convoluted? Light Side is Balance, Dark Side is Chaos. The Chosen One is meant to bring an end to the Dark Side and the Sith, thus bringing balance to the Force. It's extremely uncomplicated.

Slayershoop wrote:Problem is, the movies were made for kids (mostly), but then they try and throw violence and political intrigue in, and then you alienate everyone, the kids find it confusing, and the adults find it too cheesy.

Did you notice all the violence in the original trilogy? Vader's tendency to strangle every around him to death, the gun fight in the first five minutes of A New Hope, every movie featuring someone or something getting it's limbs cut off, Han being tortured than frozen in Carbonite. The prequels feature more fighting, the the original trilogy featured a lot more brutality.

Balance means equal parts one and the other, light side is not balance, but rather, tranquility and diplomacy (Hell, the jedi were anything but balance, any force user that wasn't a jedi was shunned, no understanding ever took place. Basically, if you're not a jedi, you're a sith type of thinking). The dark side is chaos, neither can exist without the other, chaos cannot be eliminated, thus bringing balance, is essentially equalizing the numbers between the factions.

I was talking about the prequels, the original trilogy was very much gear towards adults, and kids just happened to like it.

Slayershoop wrote:Balance means equal parts one and the other, light side is not balance, but rather, tranquility and diplomacy (Hell, the jedi were anything but balance, any force user that wasn't a jedi was shunned, no understanding ever took place. Basically, if you're not a jedi, you're a sith type of thinking). The dark side is chaos, neither can exist without the other, chaos cannot be eliminated, thus bringing balance, is essentially equalizing the numbers between the factions.

I already explained the Force is not a matter of Yin and Yang. The Light Side is Balance, the Dark Side is Imbalance. The Dark Side does not balance out the Light Side, it corrupts it and breaks the natural order of things. This is how the Force is officially explained.

It's not complicated, you're just comparing it to the wrong philosophy.

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:Balance means equal parts one and the other, light side is not balance, but rather, tranquility and diplomacy (Hell, the jedi were anything but balance, any force user that wasn't a jedi was shunned, no understanding ever took place. Basically, if you're not a jedi, you're a sith type of thinking). The dark side is chaos, neither can exist without the other, chaos cannot be eliminated, thus bringing balance, is essentially equalizing the numbers between the factions.

I already explained the Force is not a matter of Yin and Yang. The Light Side is Balance, the Dark Side is Imbalance. The Dark Side does not balance out the Light Side, it corrupts it and breaks the natural order of things. This is how the Force is officially explained.

It's not complicated, you're just comparing it to the wrong philosophy.

"The light side of the Force was the facet aligned with compassion, selflessness, self-knowledge and enlightenment, healing, mercy and benevolence, while the dark side of the Force was the element aligned with hatred, fear, covetousness, anger, aggression, jealousy and malevolence.Traditional Jedi were keen to keep the Force "in balance"...and the splitting of the Force into light side and dark sides echoes the concept of "Yin" and "Yang" in Eastern philosophy"

The Light Side cannot be balance without the emotions that the sith use, what I'm saying is that the way the force is explained is nonsensical and illogical, and part of the reason why I find the chosen one stuff utter crap.

Slayershoop wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:Balance means equal parts one and the other, light side is not balance, but rather, tranquility and diplomacy (Hell, the jedi were anything but balance, any force user that wasn't a jedi was shunned, no understanding ever took place. Basically, if you're not a jedi, you're a sith type of thinking). The dark side is chaos, neither can exist without the other, chaos cannot be eliminated, thus bringing balance, is essentially equalizing the numbers between the factions.

I already explained the Force is not a matter of Yin and Yang. The Light Side is Balance, the Dark Side is Imbalance. The Dark Side does not balance out the Light Side, it corrupts it and breaks the natural order of things. This is how the Force is officially explained.

It's not complicated, you're just comparing it to the wrong philosophy.

"The light side of the Force was the facet aligned with compassion, selflessness, self-knowledge and enlightenment, healing, mercy and benevolence, while the dark side of the Force was the element aligned with hatred, fear, covetousness, anger, aggression, jealousy and malevolence.Traditional Jedi were keen to keep the Force "in balance"...and the splitting of the Force into light side and dark sides echoes the concept of "Yin" and "Yang" in Eastern philosophy"

The Light Side cannot be balance without the emotions that the sith use, what I'm saying is that the way the force is explained is nonsensical and illogical, and part of the reason why I find the chosen one stuff utter crap.

"The idea of balance of the Force, a central tenet of the Jedi Order, refers to the ideal state in which the Force exists in nature, i.e. as the light side. The presence of the dark side corrupts and destroys this natural balance,[3] and the Jedi viewed it as their duty to restore it. "

And from the commentary for A New Hope by George Lucas himself.

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.

There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...

Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

It's only complicated to you because you keep comparing it to Yin and Yang which is, as we have previously established repeatedly, absolutely wrong.

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:Balance means equal parts one and the other, light side is not balance, but rather, tranquility and diplomacy (Hell, the jedi were anything but balance, any force user that wasn't a jedi was shunned, no understanding ever took place. Basically, if you're not a jedi, you're a sith type of thinking). The dark side is chaos, neither can exist without the other, chaos cannot be eliminated, thus bringing balance, is essentially equalizing the numbers between the factions.

I already explained the Force is not a matter of Yin and Yang. The Light Side is Balance, the Dark Side is Imbalance. The Dark Side does not balance out the Light Side, it corrupts it and breaks the natural order of things. This is how the Force is officially explained.

It's not complicated, you're just comparing it to the wrong philosophy.

"The light side of the Force was the facet aligned with compassion, selflessness, self-knowledge and enlightenment, healing, mercy and benevolence, while the dark side of the Force was the element aligned with hatred, fear, covetousness, anger, aggression, jealousy and malevolence.Traditional Jedi were keen to keep the Force "in balance"...and the splitting of the Force into light side and dark sides echoes the concept of "Yin" and "Yang" in Eastern philosophy"

The Light Side cannot be balance without the emotions that the sith use, what I'm saying is that the way the force is explained is nonsensical and illogical, and part of the reason why I find the chosen one stuff utter crap.

"The idea of balance of the Force, a central tenet of the Jedi Order, refers to the ideal state in which the Force exists in nature, i.e. as the light side. The presence of the dark side corrupts and destroys this natural balance,[3] and the Jedi viewed it as their duty to restore it. "

And from the commentary for A New Hope by George Lucas himself.

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.

There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...

Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

It's only complicated to you because you keep comparing it to Yin and Yang which is, as we have previously established repeatedly, absolutely wrong.

If they hadn't called it balance, that would have made more sense, they seem to create meanings for words just so they can use it. The whole concept makes sense, but not the fact that they called it balance.

But I digress, this is getting pretty far off topic, but oh well.

Slayershoop wrote:If they hadn't called it balance, that would have made more sense, they seem to create meanings for words just so they can use it. The whole concept makes sense, but not the fact that they called it balance.

But I digress, this is getting pretty far off topic, but oh well.

Fun fact, in English, words have many different meanings.

"3. mental steadiness or emotional stability; habit of calm behavior, judgment, etc."

And one of them happens to be the exact definition Lucas was using.

Shadowman wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:If they hadn't called it balance, that would have made more sense, they seem to create meanings for words just so they can use it. The whole concept makes sense, but not the fact that they called it balance.

But I digress, this is getting pretty far off topic, but oh well.

Fun fact, in English, words have many different meanings.

"3. mental steadiness or emotional stability; habit of calm behavior, judgment, etc."

And one of them happens to be the exact definition Lucas was using.

and that is why english is so hard to learn , anyway...

ESB FTW, Lucas really needs to step back a little, btw Shadowman, watch those reviews I linked, they explain it better than I do.

IMHO the best version of the difference between Jedi and the Sith came from the first Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic video game.

The Jedi see the mastery and the use of the Force as a hard burden to be carried and seldom ever used and the Sith see the mastery and the use of the Force as a great gift to be used when and how one wishes.

Or something to that effect.

Cyberstrike wrote:IMHO the best version of the difference between Jedi and the Sith came from the first Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic video game.

The Jedi see the mastery and the use of the Force as a hard burden to be carried and seldom ever used and the Sith see the mastery and the use of the Force as a great gift to be used when and how one wishes.

Or something to that effect.

Sort of. The Jedi view the Force as sort of a guide and a tool to help other people. The Sith view it as a weapon to obtain power, power, and more power.

Cyberstrike wrote:IMHO the best version of the difference between Jedi and the Sith came from the first Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic video game.

The Jedi see the mastery and the use of the Force as a hard burden to be carried and seldom ever used and the Sith see the mastery and the use of the Force as a great gift to be used when and how one wishes.

Or something to that effect.

Agreed, it seems that Bioware tells the story a lot better than some other people involved. This is the version that makes the most sense... then again we are talking about Star Wars, heh heh, what is realism in Sci-fi anyway