The Energon Pub

Rated X wrote:Ag...

This debate could go on all year because we both have different viewpoints and stances. Sometimes people cast off the cold reality of things as "generalizations" to appear as the optimist. Am I pessimistic about this project ? Yes. Ive stated why already. If your mindset doesnt allow you to see things from my view (even if you dont agree with it) theres not much more to say. Im prepared to eat my words if this project succeeds. But if it flops I will say I told you so. And if you want to know what my definition of a "flop" is look no further than BMOG...

I'm not saying you are wrong to believe the projects will flop. In fact, I have no idea whether they will flop or not. I have enough passing interest in a couple of the figures to pledge some money when the Kickstarters go live.

And, indeed, there is an obvious differing of approach in your pessimistic view versus my optimistic. But, I'd ask that care is taken to both offer up commentary that puts one on the defensive and then ask that one not get so defensive, or wonder why that happened. I think that should be obvious.

For the rest, I am just pointing out the flaw in your logic. If you think that these will fail because you don't believe in the Kickstarter model, or whether they will appeal to an audience that will spend the money, that's fine. But that has never been your reasoning. Are you hoping to talk them out of doing the Kickstarter? Are you hoping to see these at regular retailers? What's your end game?

I think it's pretty clear, by Scaleface's information and the kickstarter model, that this is a very realistic and well reasoned way of proceeding. I'd like to see it succeed, sure. I also think it is far less risky than going the more traditional route like you mentioned and put up or borrow the money privately.

Ultimately, time will tell.

Agamemnon wrote:

Rated X wrote:Ag...

This debate could go on all year because we both have different viewpoints and stances. Sometimes people cast off the cold reality of things as "generalizations" to appear as the optimist. Am I pessimistic about this project ? Yes. Ive stated why already. If your mindset doesnt allow you to see things from my view (even if you dont agree with it) theres not much more to say. Im prepared to eat my words if this project succeeds. But if it flops I will say I told you so. And if you want to know what my definition of a "flop" is look no further than BMOG...

I'm not saying you are wrong to believe the projects will flop. In fact, I have no idea whether they will flop or not. I have enough passing interest in a couple of the figures to pledge some money when the Kickstarters go live.

And, indeed, there is an obvious differing of approach in your pessimistic view versus my optimistic. But, I'd ask that care is taken to both offer up commentary that puts one on the defensive and then ask that one not get so defensive, or wonder why that happened. I think that should be obvious.

For the rest, I am just pointing out the flaw in your logic. If you think that these will fail because you don't believe in the Kickstarter model, or whether they will appeal to an audience that will spend the money, that's fine. But that has never been your reasoning. Are you hoping to talk them out of doing the Kickstarter? Are you hoping to see these at regular retailers? What's your end game?

I think it's pretty clear, by Scaleface's information and the kickstarter model, that this is a very realistic and well reasoned way of proceeding. I'd like to see it succeed, sure. I also think it is far less risky than going the more traditional route like you mentioned and put up or borrow the money privately.

Ultimately, time will tell.

If PWTT would just start off small with Skullgrin and test the waters, I wouldn’t be bashing them for using the kickstarter model. But the fact that they put out so much artwork promising all these molds and all these repaints seems unrealistic at such an early test stage. They seem to be extremely over-ambitious for a company that expects the fans to fund everything. Have you watched the latest Retro Robot podcast ? Scaleface spent 9 out of the 21 minutes showing off PWTT artwork. I literally finished drinking an entire bottle of beer before he finished his PWTT segment. They already have 7 different head expansion sets WTF ? They don’t even have a body molded yet but they have promised 21 different heads ranging from a tree stump to a dinosaur. They haven’t even got the funding yet. Heck, they haven’t even started the kickstarter yet. Can PWTT please put down the pen and sketch pad and show us some plastic? I admit, they did say they were getting close to producing a 3-D printing of the Skullgrin figure. But that doesn’t mean people are going to pledge to buy all their weird non TF variants to help fund the money needed to make the Skullgrin mold. In a best cases scenario BBTS will secretly pledge a huge amount of money under the names of various “donors” to get the mold kickstarted lol. Then they will sell the final product to picky TF collectors who demand an in hand video review before buying. You never know, I might be among those buyers if the figure is Skullgrin enough to impress me. But I won’t be pledging. Show me the plastic.

Rated X wrote:If PWTT would just start off small with Skullgrin and test the waters, I wouldn’t be bashing them for using the kickstarter model. But the fact that they put out so much artwork promising all these molds and all these repaints seems unrealistic at such an early test stage. They seem to be extremely over-ambitious for a company that expects the fans to fund everything.

I had promised myself I would stop debating this nonsense, but I think I have to point out that they ARE doing exactly what you request.

They said in interviews their Kickstarter starts as couple figures... the others are going to be stretch goals for if the Kickstarter does extreemly well before it closes.

This is exactly what Virtruvian Hacks did. They had 4 action figures as their basic Kickstarter. The four got funded early on, so they kept adding figures as stretch goals, and eventually made dozens of figures.

PWTToo are NOT going in with 40 figures as their base Kickstarter and asking a million dollars to make all 40 at once. That would be insane.

So now you know they are doing exactly as you suggested, I'm sure you are happy, right?

Scaleface wrote:

Rated X wrote:If PWTT would just start off small with Skullgrin and test the waters, I wouldn’t be bashing them for using the kickstarter model. But the fact that they put out so much artwork promising all these molds and all these repaints seems unrealistic at such an early test stage. They seem to be extremely over-ambitious for a company that expects the fans to fund everything.

I had promised myself I would stop debating this nonsense, but I think I have to point out that they ARE doing exactly what you request.

They said in interviews their Kickstarter starts as couple figures... the others are going to be stretch goals for if the Kickstarter does extreemly well before it closes.

This is exactly what Virtruvian Hacks did. They had 4 action figures as their basic Kickstarter. The four got funded early on, so they kept adding figures as stretch goals, and eventually made dozens of figures.

PWTToo are NOT going in with 40 figures as their base Kickstarter and asking a million dollars to make all 40 at once. That would be insane.

So now you know they are doing exactly as you suggested, I'm sure you are happy, right?

That sounds more reasonable. The barrage of artwork gives the impression that there will be a barrage of figures coming. They should slow down on the concept art and take time to breathe. I understand they are mostly artists and not toy designers, but they got enough concept art to last for years.

Except that if they are going to do the stretch goals, they need to have stuff ready. I'm still curious why you, X, are pressing this so much. Is it that you don't want to see the barrage of images?

Personally, I love the artwork that is coming out. Even though I have no interest in the whole Pretender concept, I do appreciate the work that is going into this and like seeing the images and updates. Heck, I enjoy seeing the whole process. I have aspirations of getting my own 3D printer some day and what organizations like PWTToo are doing can help in both understanding the business model and the creation of original characters.

It'd be cool to have my hobby potentially pay me a little money.

Agamemnon wrote:Except that if they are going to do the stretch goals, they need to have stuff ready. I'm still curious why you, X, are pressing this so much. Is it that you don't want to see the barrage of images?

I find the barrage of images to be quite annoying because at this stage theres no proof they will all see plastic form. They should just keep the concept art in the vault and surprise us with releases as they test the waters. PWTT is like the Igear of Kickstarter.

Play With This Too has existed for about 4 months now, and most of that art is under 2 months old. If things go well people will be ordering the toys associated with that art in under a month and they will be delivered to people's doors within a year after that. Hardly like iGear's Presser, which was teased about 4 years ago.

Scaleface wrote:Play With This Too has existed for about 4 months now, and most of that art is under 2 months old. If things go well people will be ordering the toys associated with that art in under a month and they will be delivered to people's doors within a year after that. Hardly like iGear's Presser, which was teased about 4 years ago.

My Igear comparison was strictly hypothetical and based on an assumption that most PWTT concept art wont see the light of day as a final product. Too much unreleased art didn't help Igears reputation in the long run. PWTT could suffer similar damage if they don't deliver as planned. People would say "all that art for nothing". Showing less art would mean less criticism in the event things don't work out. I wasn't really trying to continue this debate or purposely annoy you. Ag asked me a question and Ive felt he deserved an answer because we have always gotten along well on these forums.

Scaleface wrote:Play With This Too has existed for about 4 months now,

Think PWTT existed for longer than Four months. Remember hearing about PWTT Before Botcon 2014 started.

Think PWTT already had most of it's talent on board since 2013. Guessing, Including most of the Hasbro guys in 2013. who probably wanted to remain secret up until the last minute.

Scaleface wrote:and most of that art is under 2 months old.

Remember reading some PWTT panels that stated they were working on stuff a year in advance. would would be in 2013, Since that PWTT statement was said in 2014.

Scaleface wrote:If things go well people will be ordering the toys associated with that art in under a month and they will be delivered to people's doors within a year after that.

So, the whole 2015 year will be full of nothing but art sketches and teases. While sometime in 2016, PWTT will finally make it's first few toys.

Heavily guessing PWTT will not reveal the price of their toys up until the last minute of release. Guessing because each toy will cost over $60 each. If BMOG's prices are anything to go by.

Still think it's unwise trying to compete with the 6 inch action figure market. It's going to be hard competing with the newer MOTU, Super heroes, WWE, Spawn and so on market that has products that cost regular retail prices. and PWTT then being bold enough to charge exspensive 3rd party prices for products. To break it down in simpler terms. It's the equivalent of Hasbro competing with lego with their sales failure kreo toy line.

Tsutsukakushi wrote: Think PWTT existed for longer than Four months. Remember hearing about PWTT Before Botcon 2014 started.

Not that anyone else has ever heard. If you have some sort of insider information, please share.

Tsutsukakushi wrote: So, the whole 2015 year will be full of nothing but art sketches and teases. While sometime in 2016, PWTT will finally make it's first few toys.

Prototypes until the crowd funding starts, then if successful they go into production.

If you know a way to go from prototype to finished product in less time please let us know! There is nothing spectacular here, that's how long it takes.

Just look at similar examples.

BMOG ended in December and started shipping in June, and it was unassempled and unpainted, in a simple plastic sleeve.

IAmElemental ended in June 2014 and shipped in December, and that was a simple action figure, with some paint and packaging.

Vitruvian H.A.C.K.S. ended in July 2014 still is showing decos as they make last minute adjustments to fans.

I can only guess on shipping time, but I'd say more than a half year, less then a whole year is safe for PWTT.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Heavily guessing PWTT will not reveal the price of their toys up until the last minute of release. Guessing because each toy will cost over $60 each. If BMOG's prices are anything to go by.

Still think it's unwise trying to compete with the 6 inch action figure market. It's going to be hard competing with the newer MOTU, Super heroes, WWE, Spawn and so on market that has products that cost regular retail prices.

What does a new MOTU Classic figure cost to preorder? About $30-40?

You know what PWTT should release? Unpainted, unassembled "kit" versions of the figures (physically identical to the standard release except where necessary to make self-assembly possible) that the buyers could paint themselves in whatever colours they wanted. Some unpainted head shots would be cool too. I dunno, I've always liked "DIY" toys and I think it could open the avenue for action figure customizing to a lot of people.

Delta Magnus wrote:You know what PWTT should release? Unpainted, unassembled "kit" versions of the figures (physically identical to the standard release except where necessary to make self-assembly possible) that the buyers could paint themselves in whatever colours they wanted. Some unpainted head shots would be cool too. I dunno, I've always liked "DIY" toys and I think it could open the avenue for action figure customizing to a lot of people.

I agree with you on that. They should scrap the plans for all the characters and fiction and just sell white body parts instead. Buy only the parts you want, custom build and paint it, and create your own character in the colors you want it to be. PWTT would probably cringe at the idea though.

Delta Magnus wrote:You know what PWTT should release? Unpainted, unassembled "kit" versions of the figures (physically identical to the standard release except where necessary to make self-assembly possible) that the buyers could paint themselves in whatever colours they wanted. Some unpainted head shots would be cool too. I dunno, I've always liked "DIY" toys and I think it could open the avenue for action figure customizing to a lot of people.

There have been mentions of a kit called Play With Yourself, a box of uncolored parts for customizers. Probably just what you want.

Scaleface wrote:

Delta Magnus wrote:You know what PWTT should release? Unpainted, unassembled "kit" versions of the figures (physically identical to the standard release except where necessary to make self-assembly possible) that the buyers could paint themselves in whatever colours they wanted. Some unpainted head shots would be cool too. I dunno, I've always liked "DIY" toys and I think it could open the avenue for action figure customizing to a lot of people.

There have been mentions of a kit called Play With Yourself, a box of uncolored parts for customizers. Probably just what you want.

I love it! I just got done reading the Takara Legends thread with all the debate over objectifying poses and then I come across this one.

It's a poor business model, but it would also be cool to have the CAD files to use with a home 3D printer...

Agamemnon wrote:

Scaleface wrote:

Delta Magnus wrote:It's a poor business model, but it would also be cool to have the CAD files to use with a home 3D printer...

There have been Kickstarters for 3D figure creation apps that can print off. I know there is one for fantasy figures, and another for mecha. You run the app, customize the figures, colors, size, pose, then print a figure. These are all tabletop miniatures, not action figures, but I'd guess it's only time before you can print an action figure.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/he ... miniatures

Scaleface wrote:

Agamemnon wrote:

Scaleface wrote:

Delta Magnus wrote:It's a poor business model, but it would also be cool to have the CAD files to use with a home 3D printer...

There have been Kickstarters for 3D figure creation apps that can print off. I know there is one for fantasy figures, and another for mecha. You run the app, customize the figures, colors, size, pose, then print a figure. These are all tabletop miniatures, not action figures, but I'd guess it's only time before you can print an action figure.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/he ... miniatures

That. Is. AWESOME!! Now I just need to get the accountant to approve the 3D printer. And find a place to put it...

Tons of prototype pictures of Desolataur and D-Mon just went up!

https://www.facebook.com/PWTToo#!/PWTToo/photos_stream

Im not really digging the WWE wrestler physique on Skullgrin. I know in the marvel comic he was like that, but I much prefer the fat beer bellied troll look that the vintage G1 toy had. But it's nice to see PWTT show off some plastic.

The character model really did depart from the toy. In fact I notice the alternate head for Desolataur is basically the Marvel Comics head for Skullgrin.

While Skullgrin was my favorite regular Pretender. Due to his Marvel comics issue. Don't like him enough to spend $50 to $70 buying a PWTT version.

Maybe if Hasbro create a Hero Smashers Skullgrin toy for $10. Then i'll buy it.

That is some nice sculpting. I just hope articulation isn't limited.

Here is a video first look at he Desolataur prototype:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbJwPMai_2I

Scaleface wrote:Here is a video first look at he Desolataur prototype:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbJwPMai_2I

Do we know when the Kickstarter goes up?

This is the most intriguing 3rd Party concept I've seen in a while, and will probably end up going for it.

February 27th, 2015, 9am eastern time.

Yep, definitely gonna contribute to the Kickstarter.