The Energon Pub

Hey, y'all, leave Sweden out of this.


Norway is fair game, though.

1) Why should I be the one to have to prove it and cite statistics? You're all the ones who want to make the change, you are all the ones who have to prove your way is better

No, you're the ones forcing disgusting situations on people because they can't afford/aren't covered properly by insurance. Don't try to be clever here. YOU are the one that needs to defend these acts. Just because they are common practice does not mean they do not have to be defended, not that logical fallacy means anything to you, no doubt.

It's not my fault you can't see what's perfectly obvious.

What in the hell was the point of this comment? No, it's not obvious. I shouldn't need to point out that intellectuals, scientists etc. tend to be more left than right leaning.

So yes, it's "obvious", on the level of the commoner, in that it's simple and does not require a lot of intelligence to be firm with.

2) When the F-bomb did I ever pull up Sweden? I don't give a rat's ass about Sweden. Is this is the gist of all you're people's arguements? You don't like what you hear so you throw a below the belt fastball? Jesus, you people are f'in idiotic scary, you know that? So far I've been called a gay-basher, and I look down on Sweden, and I've never once mentioned either one.
Maybe if you can put together an intelligent arguement for once then maybe people will look past your views as something more than a 10 year olds rant.

You really are a complete **** idiot, you know that? You say socialisation doesn't work, Sweden socialises the health care system among many other things and most certainly works. You can't ignore working proof if you're claiming something is "obvious".

You may find the reason people keep bringing Sweden up is that it proves you wrong.

And then you throw a flipsy rant trying to make it look like your opponent is using Red Herrings. You really are a pathetic debater. And you throw in a jab at someone's maturity just for good measure, since actually appealing to someone on rational grounds is beyond your capabilities.

3) Despite what most people my thing, I'm not a right wing nut. If anything, I'm a libertarian,

I hate libertarians with a passion. You smell too much of right wingers with slightly better social policies. You remind me of Objectivists, or Randians.

who just wants government to stay out his home as much as possible.

That's a typical right wing nutjob sentiment.

Ultimately, your way of thinking is very thinking. It goes to one level of a "cunning reversal" to make itself feel smart, but that's about it.

Without the centralised control of a government, a large government, there can be real overall improvement. Without universal standards of healthcare that can only be offered through socialisation, there will always be serious problems. You say you want the government to stay the hell out of your business, but you don't even know what that means, or why. It just sounds like a clever thing to say in the name of FREEDOM.

But it's bullshit. How are people in general supposed to improve without the government interfering? Why should the government not counter injustice? Should the government not do anything about a new horrid plague because it would be butting into people's life?

You have no love for context, or do not have the power of thought to consider it. You can't comprehend the situations that a libertarian government could never survive in.

The US government's corruption is mostly down to it being so heavily tied with corporations to begin with - you could even look upon it as being partially privatised. A Government that actually gives a toss, like some european ones, do a much better job.

You're putting bullshit principles over the wellbeing of people.

Socialization doesn't give you anything for free, if forces others to pay what you take for granted, and it takes away your personal liberties of choice.

I'll say this just once. I think you're a sickening human being. You only really care about nice sounding little trites, and your opinions, not how they ultimately affect others. You'll claim otherwise, but there's a reason why right wing economics and right wing social policies so often cling together - they're both about being immensely poor at understanding people in differing situations.

Socialisation means people that wouldn't have access to the health care they need, do. Why should they have to suffer, and it will ALWAYS happen, right wingers don't understand that it is their model that relies on an "Ideal" state, not socialism - people are simply not always going to be able to work themselves out of anything, just to uphold your ideals?

Because all you care about are your ideals. Not people. All this rambling about the economy amounts to zilch if many people simply can't get the basic health care they need. People die because of privatised medicine. If people die under socialised medicine, at least it's not because they didn't have enough money, everyone is being treated fairly.

Spark Light wrote:I'll say this just once. I think you're a sickening human being. You only really care about nice sounding little trites, and your opinions, not how they ultimately affect others. You'll claim otherwise, but there's a reason why right wing economics and right wing social policies so often cling together - they're both about being immensely poor at understanding people in differing situations.

Let's get another things straight, I don't really care about you and your thoughts about me. There is not one thing you've said in your posts that hasn't been hate spewing drivel from the word go. You have no point other than to be vicious because someone holds a different viewpoint than yourself. You haven't presented one piece of evidence to support your views and you haven't once made a coherent arguement otherwise. I couldn't care less if you hate libertarians, I for one hate liberals. There, we're even. At least I don't hide freedom curtailing views behind a sentiment of "greater good". You have no idea what that really means, and sounds more like Nazi propaganda than true sentiment towards people.

You can't make a argument without hate spewing and downright lies, and your comments from this point forward, shall be ignored. Maybe if you grow up a bit you'll realize what's really at stake.

Hey now.... I don't particualarly agree w/ people in debates but you need to be CIVIL. don't attack and go for the throat.No need to call names!!! I am a dyed in the wool Progressive but I beleive in peoples right to their opinion. Save the vitriol for the politicians. We're all just people!

Spark Light wrote:I don't buy this argument. The people that are in charge of socialising health care won't be the same making the idiotic decisions that bizarrely many right wingers who use this line of illogical argument support anyway. A government is not necessarily a singular entity.

It doesn't matter. Just look at the government organizations which are complete failures. FEMA. ICE, Border Patrol, Medicare, et cetera. America can't even win military conflicts anymore. To be honest, what is the one single government agency which is actually efficient? The IRS. That's it. Everything else is pretty much broken or a total failure.

No, the government is not capable. Plus socialization means lesser pay for doctors. A lot less. It'll be just like the educational system. The best and brightest want nothing to do with it because they can't control their monetary fate. So you attract people who aren't as capable and will likely be less skilled.

Would you rather trust soulless corporations to do it, who's only interest in profit? Governments have some vested interest in keeping their people happy - they are under scrutiny constantly. Corporations can get a way with a lot more in the world of health care.

YES, I honest to god do trust corporations over the government. It's not even close. Corporate motivation (profit) is a wonderful atmosphere to foster efficiency whereas the government is the unrivaled master of inefficiency. Do you actually dispute that?

Not to mention which is better, good health care for some, or decent health care for all? Where are all the doctors going to flee to like when they supposedly fled Canada, also? Mexico? Come on.

Pfff, if you don't have health care go work part time at Wal Mart. How hard is that? I already mentioned that someone can pick up full health coverage for themselves and their children for $11.00 a month there. Or would you rather steal 15% of every citizen's income to fund nationalized health care?

The doctors are going to where they can actually get decent pay and not have the government lording over them and their entire careers.

Spark Light wrote:Would you privatise the police, the fire brigade? No. So why Health care?

Ummm, actually I would privatize police and firemen. The Minute Men already proved that they're light years ahead of Border Patrol when it comes to protecting our borders and they're just a bunch of senior citizens living out of RVs.

Next.

Actually, the IRS is inefficient as well. Something along the lines of $2,000,000,000 dolars of taxes not collected or some such, I forget the exact figure, but I'll try and look it up. Edit: I'm sorry, I was wrong. It's more like $345,000,000,000 a year. See link: http://marketplacemoney.publicradio.org ... e_tax_gap/

As for the topic at hand, oddly enough, people can go to the emergency room at any time and not be refused treatment regardless of insurance or ability to pay. Which many people do in this country, quite a few of them being illegal immigrants. Which causes my costs to be higher even with insurance.
http://www.legal-immigration.com/medica ... rants.html

Then we have the trial lawyers who sue for any given reason, causing malpractice insurance to go up. Which in turn raises the doctor's cost. As far as I recall, creating income out of thin air isn't a course in medical schools, so those costs have to be deferred somewhere, what are they called, paying customers. Like me.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=4968&type=0

Medical school is expensive as well, the doctor must repay his student loans, so there goes even more costs that he has to cover.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/becoming-a-doctor11.htm

Americans do not have a right to health care. They have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There are no guarantees as to the forms these may take. The field is set for anyone to raise themselves up and become better. Anyone can get an education if they want it. Anyone can get health care if they want it. Want health insurance, don't buy the 30,000 car and buy the 15,000 car, use the money you save on car payments to pay for it. Don't buy houses you can't afford logically. Don't eat out twice o three times a week. Be smart with your money.

Get an education and get a better job. Shut your legs and stop having babies you can't afford and expect my tax dollars to pay for. Learn to speak English and learn a trade. Become productive members of society.

And another thing, capitalism is not a zero-sum equation. As the rich make more money, they invest more money. More investments equal more jobs. More jobs equal more money for the lower classes. Those people spend money on products and services, creating a return on the initial investment. That money is then re-invested in more areas, creating more opportunity, and so forth. So yes, the rich get richer under capitalism, but so to do the poor.

Sorry for the rant, but the idea that people want the same government that can't even get them on an airplane in a decent hour or get them through the DMV in an efficient fashion is supposed to be able to get me through an emergency situation in a timely manner so that I don't die. Sorry, but I'll take my chances with the guys that make me pay, but will do as good a job as I pay them for.

BTW, I'm a proud Libertarian, who supports the Fair Tax, kicking illegals out, commonsense and government getting the hell out of my life and wallet as much as flarking possible! And I make around 35,000 a year, so it's not like I'm someone who has money flying all over the place.

One more thing, any of you guys that support government health care, the next time you guys get sick, go to the health department instead of your family doctor. That will really open your eyes to some things.

Emperor Galvatron wrote:Actually, the IRS is inefficient as well. Something along the lines of $2,000,000,000 dolars of taxes not collected or some such, I forget the exact figure, but I'll try and look it up. Edit: I'm sorry, I was wrong. It's more like $345,000,000,000 a year. See link: http://marketplacemoney.publicradio.org ... e_tax_gap/

As for the topic at hand, oddly enough, people can go to the emergency room at any time and not be refused treatment regardless of insurance or ability to pay. Which many people do in this country, quite a few of them being illegal immigrants. Which causes my costs to be higher even with insurance.
http://www.legal-immigration.com/medica ... rants.html

Then we have the trial lawyers who sue for any given reason, causing malpractice insurance to go up. Which in turn raises the doctor's cost. As far as I recall, creating income out of thin air isn't a course in medical schools, so those costs have to be deferred somewhere, what are they called, paying customers. Like me.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=4968&type=0

Medical school is expensive as well, the doctor must repay his student loans, so there goes even more costs that he has to cover.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/becoming-a-doctor11.htm

Americans do not have a right to health care. They have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There are no guarantees as to the forms these may take. The field is set for anyone to raise themselves up and become better. Anyone can get an education if they want it. Anyone can get health care if they want it. Want health insurance, don't buy the 30,000 car and buy the 15,000 car, use the money you save on car payments to pay for it. Don't buy houses you can't afford logically. Don't eat out twice o three times a week. Be smart with your money.

Get an education and get a better job. Shut your legs and stop having babies you can't afford and expect my tax dollars to pay for. Learn to speak English and learn a trade. Become productive members of society.

And another thing, capitalism is not a zero-sum equation. As the rich make more money, they invest more money. More investments equal more jobs. More jobs equal more money for the lower classes. Those people spend money on products and services, creating a return on the initial investment. That money is then re-invested in more areas, creating more opportunity, and so forth. So yes, the rich get richer under capitalism, but so to do the poor.

Sorry for the rant, but the idea that people want the same government that can't even get them on an airplane in a decent hour or get them through the DMV in an efficient fashion is supposed to be able to get me through an emergency situation in a timely manner so that I don't die. Sorry, but I'll take my chances with the guys that make me pay, but will do as good a job as I pay them for.

BTW, I'm a proud Libertarian, who supports the Fair Tax, kicking illegals out, commonsense and government getting the hell out of my life and wallet as much as flarking possible! And I make around 35,000 a year, so it's not like I'm someone who has money flying all over the place.

Quoted for Absolute Truth. This is why I like this board. When I can't express my opinions elequently, someone else comes out of left field and says it exactly right.

One more thing, any of you guys that support government health care, the next time you guys get sick, go to the health department instead of your family doctor. That will really open your eyes to some things.

Try and do anything through the government. It took me over a month to get my unemployment filed. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like waiting over a month for any health related treatment.

I have kind of mixed feelings about all of this. See, my husband is in the military, which means our entire family has full coverage health insurance. My prenatal care for two babies were free, as well as a year's worth of TB medicine my husband took, an otherwise $4500 MRI for my child, etc. It is one less thing for my family to worry about, which is great because our pay is absolute sh*t. Our health care quality is pretty good. In the hospital I had a two-day stay in the ICU, and was treated very well and had everything I needed. This is in a military hospital, and fortunately it wasn't Walter Reed.

However....for the rest of the country...when a middle-class family goes bankrupt for one visit to the emergency room, there is something seriously wrong with that. The fire dept doesn't send you a bill if they have to hose your house down, so why should you get one if an ambulance comes to get you after you've suffered a heart attack? Why should it destroy your family finances? My boyfriend died five years ago and his parents were sent the incredible bill for his trip in the ambulance and the work they did on him. His elderly parents are supposed to foot the bill for their child's death??? Bad enough they could only get the cheapest funeral possible, but a hospital bill as well...

I understand that without corporate competition there aren't the advances necessary for state-of-the-art healthcare. We only had space travel and moon landings to compete (and win) against the Soviets. We needed a push to progress. And when it comes to corporate America to make better products every year, they require people to spend the $$$. That is what healthcare is about. If you want a slick cell phone, that is fine. But when you need a liver transplant...eh, not so hot, is it?

However, when the govt runs the show in public healthcare, such as your local free clinic, it's crap. Personally, I do believe that prejudice against the lower class plays a part (as well as against minorities....and please consider that this is coming from someone who is basically a former nazi, so imagine how my eyes have opened), that the govt simply doesn't care. I believe in my heart of hearts that Katrina would not have been the blunder it was had it been mostly middle class or white citizens in trouble down there.

So health care here is among the best available in the world, because of competition...but only if you can pay the price.

My boyfriend died five years ago and his parents were sent the incredible bill for his trip in the ambulance and the work they did on him. His elderly parents are supposed to foot the bill for their child's death???

Stuff like this is incredibly tragic, and I can certainly understand that question. Unfortunately, you have the take the good with the bad, and in my opinion, socialization of the healthcare isn't the appropriate answer to that. The bad FAR outweighs the good. These types of moral question tend to get harder when heart strings are tugged instead of looking at the situation with clear perspective.

Bad enough they could only get the cheapest funeral possible, but a hospital bill as well...

The funeral industry is a totally different kettle of fish. There isn't a more ruthless, morally depleted industry to delve into the the funeral business.

Moonbase2 wrote:However....for the rest of the country...when a middle-class family goes bankrupt for one visit to the emergency room, there is something seriously wrong with that.

This is quite the hyperbole. You used a socialized system of medicine as your example in your first paragraph but then you specifically mentioned that military pay is pretty poopy. Which it is, I'm active duty army myself. However, the pay is crap but the other stuff makes up for it. A lot of it. Free medical care. Free food. Commissary discounts. Space A travel. Basic Housing Allowance. You can go on and on. An E7 with over 8 years in only gets just under three grand a month before taxes. Account for taxes and it's probably $2200 take home. $2200 take home for a four member family is nearly below the poverty level. You tack on the other benefits and all of the sudden that $2200 becomes nothing but disposable income.

An average middle class family pulls in a much larger amount of cash than what you would call a "middle class military family." You can't compare the two in the manner you described and than decry privatized medicine from that conclusion. So while a middle class military family is lucky to get 30k a year a middle class civilian family pulls in 45-70k. That's a big difference. At that rate people can afford decent insurance. In fact, when pulling in that kind of scratch a good insurance policy from the employer is pretty much standard and the average policy covers a family, not just an individual, which the socialists on this board either don't understand or refuse to admit.

When a hospital visit costs in the tens of thousands, even a fairly well-to-do middle class family will be severely taxed for funds to pay for it. THAT is what is wrong.

We're E-5, and after our car payment (and for a used car, mind you) and savings allotment (which we refuse to give up) we have enough to pay our bills and get food, but not for a whole lot more. Considering the hours and sheer work my husband puts in, we deserve much better. We're about to move to Ft. Benning, and we're going to be living in the same housing as E-1s!!!! And it's a dump!

But we get free healthcare, for stuff that shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg in the first place. Middle class civilians were obviously smarter than we were by choosing careers that make more money, but that doesn't mean they should have to pull money out of their rear ends should an emergency occur, or pay hundreds a month in health insurance that probably wouldn't even cover what it is supposed to, such as a chronic condition. It's all a crock of ****.

Yeah, but socialized health care isn't going to stop that. Socialization will cause healthcare costs to go up and that money is just coming from out of nowhere. Seeing the doctor isn't going to cost you anything, but be prepared to pay more in taxes for that privilge.

More taxes.
Less quality.
More government control.

It's a loser all around.

I think the ideal solution would be to have private hospitals, properly regulated, with health insurance provided by the government.

If made to work it could potentially combine the best parts of both systems by giving patients more choice and providing competition, whilst also retaining the rather more benevolent treatment policies that you tend to get with a socialised system.

I think it would also serve to prevent the frivolous usage of the service(s), which is a drain on socialised systems, by potentially inflating people's contributions for things that they don't need doing, or that don't require a diagnosis. (eg: there are always a few hypocondriacs or someone who needs to know that they're double-jointed)

Additionally, the government would be making revenue more efficiently, because out of everything it collects, it's only spending what need be for treatments that actually take place.