The Energon Pub

And will ignore, shift blame, or otherwise excuse when presented with it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070821/ts_ ... ty_toys_dc


I'm guilty as well, but it's a relevant discussion since so many of us here make use of the products in question.


I hate to sound like the choir boy, but this is a huge reason why I haven't bought a single TF since RiD. I honestly can't bring myself to do it.

There are other reasons, but this is huge. And it pisses me off that it's so prevalent all over the world: so much of what we take for granted is dirty. You can't escape it.

Yeah, I know.

My bootleg collection is helping fuel this thing. However, I can't find any KO's made in the US.

Remember, when there was the big Nike boycott about a decade ago, or when some clothing line was boycotted, "Child Labor, unsafe working conditions, etc..."

No one cares anymore. There is no thing as social responsibility anymore with companies.

The worst thing ever, was when a company or corporation becomes LLC. No one's responsible, no one can get sued, "It's not me, I have to find cheaper products to make a profit." I can't make a profit in the US, too many laws."

So, go overseas, where you can make a profit on the backs of some other poor soul... Unfortunately, it's the American way, by that I mean Capitalism.

Ayup, China is a pretty poopy place to live in for a lot of people and multinational corporations are quick to take advantage of this. If they really cared about workplace standards I'm pretty sure they would have taken more care with who they contracted.

What we can do, is make a lot of fuss about it. What we should do is practically kick the asses of the corporations that do this. How, I'm not so sure. I guess that's something the US government will have to handle.

So go do something about it besides whining on the interwebs.

lkavadas wrote:So go do something about it besides whining on the interwebs.

Well the "interwebs" is a major forum for trading information (thus why we're here). If I wanted to start a movement, this would probably be the start... though I doubt a TF site will start a boycott of Hasbro...

But that takes effort and I'd need to move more than my fingers.

I'm actually pondering precisely what I, personally, could do to help. The easiest thing to do is to simply donate money to some manner of organisation. That does feel like a bit of a cop-out, but I dunno. I'll just have to look it up.

I could always become politically active but I'm not exactly convinced I'm quite cut out for it.

capitalism at it's worst

lkavadas wrote:So go do something about it besides whining on the interwebs.

Yeah.... um, this the philosophy forum, where we come to discuss issues. So, uh, that's kind of what I did.

At least I thought that was what this forum was for.


And I have been doing something. I mentioned it already. I haven't bought a single TF that has been released since RiD. I do actually watch what I buy.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you don't care about this predicament. In this forum, you can, you know, discuss that. Reasons why and whatnot.


Okay, I'm just gonna go stand over there now...

Hi!, Waves at DZ.

I think our best effort would be to write a letter of complaint to the companies/corporations in question.

My problem is KO's and since they are illegal anyway(copyright laws and all), i'm afraid, that I have no legs to stand on.

However, if one of yall get an address(e-mail or physical) to somewhere, I'll chime in.

I give you credit for not buying a single figure since RID. I'll admit I don't have that kind of power over myself to do such a thing. (Just like many others)

Problem is...everything's made in China these days. Even if it says "Made In The USA" there's a chance that it's not. We really have no idea what is and isn't made in the US or China...it's a gamble.

So what the hell are we supposed to do??

So, go overseas, where you can make a profit on the backs of some other poor soul... Unfortunately, it's the American way, by that I mean Capitalism.

You're complaining about the working conditions in China so you bitch about the "American Way"?

Moving a company oversea to take advantage of cheap labor I'm sure happens, but it's the exception, not the rule/

So don't buy things from Japan. Don't claim you have an addicition to action figures and cast a down turn look upon others when you won't do anything about it yourself. There are A LOT of companies that produce, distribute, sell American products right here in the US. EVERY company I've worked for has made product that's been one-hundred percent American produced, and therefore not produced under deplorable conditions.

But wait...that would be Capitalism. Best to switch to a socialist country were you can get those products at a higher costs and a lower paycheck. And while you're at it, hand over that paycheck, you don't want capitalism anyway, there's someone else out there who didn't make one (namely me) who deserves it more. Hypocrite much? There's nothing I hate more than people who claim they deplore how a system operates and then uses it anyway - all the while playing the holier-than-thou angle. Seriously, if you hate capitalism that much, move to Cuba.

As a Cuban I went to college with once said. Yeah, I could work here for five years and retire in Cuba a rich man...but then I would be living in Cuba.

Now, in now way do I condone the conditions of child labor, etc. But don't look down the nose at anyone until you take a good long look at yourself.

Now you're just being Naive.

The society that we are built upon is Capitalism. The whole point of capitalism is to make money. It is cheaper for a company to subcontract to another country and pay them less to gain a larger share amount.

Prime example: look at telemarketing and any company that has a call center.

The friggin' telephone was thought of, created, and employed here in the US. However, it is cheaper to pay someone in India with a degree less than they pay someone here in the US without a degree.

I'm not preaching the values of either of these options. However, that is way Capitalism works. To ignore it is to become blind.

Change has to come from the inside.

What are our options? Hasbro makes $ on products made in China. If they made them here in the US, they would cost more.

Am I hypocrite? Sometimes I am, however, we are discussing options. How are we to make the changes and still keep our toys? There is no easy answer, for everything to be made in the US, we would have to pay extravagant prices.

Let's work for a solution and not get egotistical on our high horses!

Is all of Hasbro's toys made in China, and have they all been made by child labor? I am just wondering, because if it is so, then I might just preorder Takara's new MP Starscream instead of Hasbro's.

Zombie Starscream wrote:Is all of Hasbro's toys made in China, and have they all been made by child labor? I am just wondering, because if it is so, then I might just preorder Takara's new MP Starscream instead of Hasbro's.

Those are most likely made in China too.
My encore Prime is stamped China

Loki120 wrote:

So don't buy things from Japan.

What do bad working conditions in China have to do with buying things from Japan?

Unfortunately, the reason we are able to get things so cheaply from China is because of the low wages, no benefits. Still no reason to treat your workforce like animals or worse, but we have to face the facts. Also, for some Chinese the children have to work to help support the family. It is horrid, but for them a fact of life. Even a century ago here in America our children were born to work.

Another sad truth is that in America (and I'm sure many, many other countries) we only care about what personally affects us. Or what we consider valuable. For instance, remember how many children died in the 2004 tsunami? Thousands and thousands. Yet who does People magazine show on its cover? A little blond boy named Hans from Sweden, who survived, by the way. We simply don't care enough about poor countries. And we don't have Madonna or Angelina Jolie showing the plight of the Chinese enough for us to pay any attention whatsoever.

Moonbase2 wrote:Unfortunately, the reason we are able to get things so cheaply from China is because of the low wages, no benefits. Still no reason to treat your workforce like animals or worse, but we have to face the facts. Also, for some Chinese the children have to work to help support the family. It is horrid, but for them a fact of life. Even a century ago here in America our children were born to work.

Another sad truth is that in America (and I'm sure many, many other countries) we only care about what personally affects us. Or what we consider valuable. For instance, remember how many children died in the 2004 tsunami? Thousands and thousands. Yet who does People magazine show on its cover? A little blond boy named Hans from Sweden, who survived, by the way. We simply don't care enough about poor countries. And we don't have Madonna or Angelina Jolie showing the plight of the Chinese enough for us to pay any attention whatsoever.

Madonna and Angelina might actually be doing some good, but we really don't know what the hell they're doing. The only reason they don't show us enough of the plight is because they're using the faces of these children and their races to bolster their popularity and make their names more important.

Stars may actually be people of conviction, but I seriously doubt it. It's called acting.

DISCHARGE wrote:

Zombie Starscream wrote:Is all of Hasbro's toys made in China, and have they all been made by child labor? I am just wondering, because if it is so, then I might just preorder Takara's new MP Starscream instead of Hasbro's.

Those are most likely made in China too.
My encore Prime is stamped China

Transformers are made in China.

Hasbro produces and sells toys that were made in China.

China is infamous for the horrible way it's citizens are treated.


That's all we really know, and it's enough for me.


And Loki, I agree with you. I used to bitch about capitalism as well. Maybe with this thread I still am. But I'm in it too deep at this point in my life to just up and leave. (Though I think I can get New Zealand citizenship because my father was born there, but that wouldn' happen for years, and I don't know how different it is over there.)


Drew, I honestly don't think a letter would work but I'd write it and mail it if I got enough signatures from people on this site. I don't know what a good number is, but I'm thinking over 100. Probably more, to have any kind of sway at all.

And let's imagine it worked. How much more expensive would it be? Why can't they be made by prisoners? You don't have to pay them anything.

Professor Smooth wrote:What do bad working conditions in China have to do with buying things from Japan?

Bah, I was thinking Japanese Transformers and said Japan instead of China. I think most people knew what I meant though.

DJDrew&ScoobyDoo wrote:
Now you're just being Naive.

The society that we are built upon is Capitalism. The whole point of capitalism is to make money. It is cheaper for a company to subcontract to another country and pay them less to gain a larger share amount.

Prime example: look at telemarketing and any company that has a call center.

The friggin' telephone was thought of, created, and employed here in the US. However, it is cheaper to pay someone in India with a degree less than they pay someone here in the US without a degree.

I'm not preaching the values of either of these options. However, that is way Capitalism works. To ignore it is to become blind.

Change has to come from the inside.

What are our options? Hasbro makes $ on products made in China. If they made them here in the US, they would cost more.

Am I hypocrite? Sometimes I am, however, we are discussing options. How are we to make the changes and still keep our toys? There is no easy answer, for everything to be made in the US, we would have to pay extravagant prices.

Let's work for a solution and not get egotistical on our high horses!

I don't think I'm being nieve.

1. I'm serious in saying that I outside of college, I have never worked for a company that has outsourced or used cheap labor from another country. I only say outside of college, because I have no idea about Burger King, and frankly, I didn't research that. Other than that, all of them have been multi-billion dollar companies (One was in the top 50 of the countries most profitable business in the US). Even the cable company I worked for didn't outsource it's tech to another country, after hours was outsourced to a company in Utah.

2. People are complaining that capitalism is the source of their woes. Yes, sometimes companies do things like this to keep costs down. However, capitalism can work in the other direction as well. Don't buy from companies that use cheap labor, it's that simple. And don't blame your toy addition as a reason why you can't do that. When enough people don't buy their product, they'll have no choice but to change their ways, or they'll go under...that's how it works.

Tammuz wrote:capitalism at it's worst

This further proove my theory!

Capitalism=Bad
Communism=Bad

Loki120 says,

2. People are complaining that capitalism is the source of their woes. Yes, sometimes companies do things like this to keep costs down. However, capitalism can work in the other direction as well. Don't buy from companies that use cheap labor, it's that simple. And don't blame your toy addition as a reason why you can't do that. When enough people don't buy their product, they'll have no choice but to change their ways, or they'll go under...that's how it works.

I agree with that, in principle. However, I haven't shopped at Wal*Mart since I quit back in 1999. They are still just as powerful a juggernaut as they have ever been, maybe even more so.

Has/Tak/Tom want to make money. If they produced toys here in the US, they would have to pay the price for the Petrol(for plastic) that we have here in the US. While in China, they pay their prices. Here in the US, they would have to pay the US wages, Healthcare, safety standards, etc... In China, HA!, like they have any of those.

So lets say a toy cost $10 after import from China, the same thing here in the US would be $15-20 without import. It's not economical.

Sure Has/Tak/Tom can pay more for toys, then the shareholders would b!tch, they want money. Who are the shareholders? Why us, with our 401K's, and investments for our future.

It's a friggin' catch 22, fueled by the Capitalism/Consumerism that makes our beautiful country.

One has to shop wisely. There are tradeoff's.

Would a letter make a difference? Prob. not, but at least there would be a voice in opposition. We need to find ways to work better for the country and the world.

'sides, if China actually adjusted their currency to the world rate, then they wouldn't be cheaper anyway. But hey, even the Communists want Capitalism.

Sorry for the doublepost.

I'm not completely against Capitalism, I'm not Anti-American.

However, we only have one world. With global commercialism, there really is only one Global Economy.

We need to work smarter.

To debate the plus and minus of Capitalism/Consumerism/Commercialism, we may need to start a new thread. But it is tightly wound around this thread. H&ll, we but TF's so, so are we.

DesalationReborn wrote:

lkavadas wrote:So go do something about it besides whining on the interwebs.

Well the "interwebs" is a major forum for trading information (thus why we're here). If I wanted to start a movement, this would probably be the start... though I doubt a TF site will start a boycott of Hasbro...

If the UK was by Japan, and so I had a much better access to TakaraTomy products, I know I might.

But as is, we're still at the heart...

*reads the thread*

I suppose this is where someone says, "Vote with your money"?

It's funny the way capitalism works.

We want stuff, but we don't like paying "too much" for it [definitions of "too much" will vary].

For me, having not a lot of disposable income, price is important. If I can get something cheaper from Source A as opposed to Source B, I choose Source A.

Of course, like pretty much everyone here, I like Transformers. I want to buy Transformers.

But I don't support the idea that some Lee Jong in China has to work 12+ hours for what comes to equal $5 US [or whatever wage he's getting]. And on top of that get no worker's benefits because that raises costs.

So. What do we do? Well, petitioning and letter-writing and not buying the things we covet have been proposed.

But, I suppose, in the end, whatever method we decide to use in regards to China [or wherever else cheap labour is an issue], the real strategy is to be persistent.

Be a social conscience nag [with good manners!], in a way. And influence others to join us.

And when we get together with a goal in mind and a battle plan devised, it is possible to make a change and have the things we want [like Transformers *smile*].

It is possible if we decide to make it possible.


[Hurray for idealism!]

Dark Zarak wrote:I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you don't care about this predicament. In this forum, you can, you know, discuss that. Reasons why and whatnot.

No, I don't care. And I never will. The plight of Chinese workers is a Chinese problem. They can deal with it themselves. It's called personal responsibility. I know that 80% of the people on this forum expect the government to do everything for them, and apparently for ill-treated workers in a foreign nation while they're at it, but this is not the responsibility of anyone besides the Chinese. It's not our fault they've been bred from birth to be completely subservient and basically work as slaves.

America didn't want it that way. We tried to avoid this with the nationalists under Kaishek. Hell, we didn't even recognize China until like when, 1972 was it?

At least you have the guts and fortitude to not buy any more toys made in these conditions. More than most can say, for sure.

And LOLZ @ Tammuz. Blame capitalism? Yes, let's blame that. How dare we put the blame on the communist dictatorship that makes all of this possible. Clearly they're not responsible. Just evil America and our evil greed and whatever inane notion you decide to concoct next. Yeah, blame capitalism. Do you hear about crap like this happening in Taiwan? No, you don't. And Taiwan is what? ZOMG, capitalist! Just like America wanted all of China to be. You realize the current social plight of Chinese slave laborers is a direct result of a political ideaology that you basically espouse, correct? LOLZ @ Tammuz.

Edit: ROFL, yes, check out these hell hole Taiwanese working conditions. Labor Insurance Act? Labor Standards Law? Employment and Vocational Training Administration of the Council of Labor Affairs? Labor Safety and Health Law? Employment Services Act? Who the hell do they they are? Goddam capitalists, right? Seriously, I can't believe anyone in Taiwan is even left alive with these torturous capitalist working standards and practices. God save us all from the most successful economic driving force ever devised by humanity which has gifted and bestowed western modernization and extreme wealth to every single nation that has employed it. Ever. Yeah, f*ck capitalism!