The Energon Pub

Damolisher wrote:Oh, Jesus Bloody Christ, here we go again! Look, MTMTE ONLY APPLIES TO THE BLOODY DREAMWAVE CONTINUITY FOR THE 80TH BLOODY TIME! And Transformers must not be living, SINCE THEY ARE PROGRAMMED! You clearly have never bothred to pick up the Marvel G1 comics, because if you did, there is constant reference to being PROGRAMMED by the Creation Matrix. Dinobots in G1 Cartoon? Ratchet and Wheeljack programmed them with the brains of dinosaurs. They reprogram them to become more intelligent. Brawl? Personality component. Programming has been frequently shown in the goddamn comics and cartoon. Stop cherry picking for crying out loud. Bloody aren't programmed. How badly can one person be clutching at Straws?

And For God's Sake, you don't need to start every post with "Damolisher, blah, blah, blah." You just quoted my post, I think it's disturbingly obvious who you're talking to. And I don't give a rat's arse what an out-of-date, no longer official set of guidebooks says. Untapped potential is obviously a nod to the ending of Beast Machines, and Untapped obviously means they haven't been able to do it yet. Duh. You're obviously avoiding that blantantly clear meaning to try and sway your argument. Nice try. Do you know what untapped means?

And another difference between you and me is I can tell Michael Bay's movies aren't G1, and I can accept Soundwave as something else, but that's not the point, the point here is you're wrong, and you're delibrately ignoring all prior Transformers lore before Dreamwave wrote their own continuity, except for one Manga which no-one counts as canon but you and a handful of Japanese, (Non-Canon because none of the characters exist over here.) and a throw away law which doesn't have to apply to a cartoon.

Actually, I own the entire run of Marvel G1 comics, and believe it or not, but even there, there are numerous mentions of them not being programmed. When Powermaster Optimus Prime is finally introduced, Hi-Q first consideres them programmed robots, nothing more. He soon learns otherwise. They aren't simply programmed machines, they are living beings. They aren't "programmed" by the Matrix. The Matrix gives them life; it gives them their "soul"—their spark. From then on, they learn and grow on their own.

Secondly, we aren't only talking one continuity anyway. We're addressing the entire TF canon. And that passage isn't referring to just internal continuity within Dreamwave, especially since Dreamwave took their copntinuity from the cartoon, older Marvel comics, and toys. It took elements from them all, mostly the cartoon and toys though, as well as from Beast Wars. And The Dreamwave material is no less official than Marvel or the cartoon or IDW.

And there we go again! You just ignored half of my argument to pick out something you could come up with some excuse for. Once again, Dreamwave= Own continuity, it's only your opinion it's not, and I notice you ignore everything I said about the cartoon.

And again, you've misinterpretted and cocked up arguing with something someone said. What I said was, if you'll actually read PRORPERLY, Untapped Potential refers to the ending of Beast Machines where the planet is made into an organic planet. THE END, END OF STORY. I win. Now, where's my damn prize?

Damolisher wrote:And there we go again! You just ignored half of my argument to pick out something you could come up with some excuse for. Once again, Dreamwave= Own continuity, it's only your opinion it's not, and I notice you ignore everything I said about the cartoon.

And again, you've misinterpretted and cocked up arguing with something someone said. What I said was, if you'll actually read PRORPERLY, Untapped Potential refers to the ending of Beast Machines where the planet is made into an organic planet. THE END, END OF STORY. I win. Now, where's my damn prize?

No, it isn't. That is the way you interpret it. Most other people in this discussion don't.

Secondly Damolisher, you don't "win" if you can't convince the other party. Once again, this discussion is not about whether or not TransFormers can reproduce sexually. IT is a discussion of theories on how they would do so.. IT is about coming up with theories on how it might work, not if it is possible.

Yeah, I do win. I win by default since nothing convinces you, because you have an endless supply of half-truths to pull out of your arse to bullshit people. You keep trying to say that, but it's not worth debating, because there's only a few select ways they could, which are pretty damn obvious, and robosex isn't one of them. Therefore, I win, you lose, much like you did in the Soundwave topic.

Damolisher wrote:Yeah, I do win. I win by default since nothing convinces you, because you have an endless supply of half-truths to pull out of your arse to bullshit people. You keep trying to say that, but it's not worth debating, because there's only a few select ways they could, which are pretty damn obvious, and robosex isn't one of them. Therefore, I win, you lose, much like you did in the Soundwave topic.

No, Damolisher. You don't win by default. You can believe you do, but this isn't a competition.

Aslo, there is no reason at all why transformers cannot be sexually reproductive. They are living beings, they have genders (sexes), in other words males and females. They engage in courtship, which only serves to wo a potential mate for the purposes of reproduction, they marry, They have internal reganerative systems which specialized subsystems of could very easily be utilized for reproductive purposes by producing specialized nanomachines specifically created doe sexual reproduction. There is nothing that makes it impossible for them to reproduce sexually. Being mechanical based, rather than organic, does not make some form of sexual reproduction impossible.

Females are only there to appease potential female fans. Notice how you're the only ones who's ever thought anything into this sexual reproduction crap? It's pretty pathetic if you ask me. Seriously, you must get slapped A LOT by women, honestly, I mean, all you think they're there for is making babies. Their internal systems are computer systems, like an anti-virus, as stated in Time Wars part 2, AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, A RACE OF ROBOTS WHO BUILD EACH OTHER DON'T NEED TO REPRODUCE! That aloen should tip you off. but oh no, you're Tramp, you're always right, regardless of how mindlessly STUPID your theories are.

And if you're thought about Optimus and Elita alone having a night of hot torrid sex to make robot babies, even though the parts are right next to them, Optimus has his matrix, and no sexual organs are ever shown on a Transformer, or are ever clearly talked about by a Transformer, which you think would've been at some point or another, and why wait 9 months or however long when you can build one in seconds, you've obviously thought about STIs. So, what do Transformers get, Tramp? Pubic Scraplets? Groin Rust? IMFS? (Internal Machines Failure Syndrome?) Give us a few sex positions Tramp, you've obviously thought about it, those have got to be there, Tramp.

Seriously, you've been hit with conclusive evidence in both topics this has come up, and you're still trying to argue. Give it up already, Christ's sakes. You cry lifeforms, but first and foremost, they're robots. Why do you not get that? Bloody hell, it's like arguing with an echo with a ridiculous opinion created of warped interpretations of obviously taken lines. This is stupid, because you're not gonna back down even though you're clearly wrong. It's freakin' pathetic.

Damolisher, ther e is no conclusive evidence againtst them being sexually reproductive. I am not the only one to say this either. Secondly, whie from a marketing perspective it is true that fembots are there to draw the female audience, from an in universe perespective, females are not there for that reason. They serve a real purpose. Genders serve a purpose. From that standpoint, reproduction is the only real purpose for genders in any race of life form.

Also, if you go back through this thread, you will notice that no, I am not the only one who has put any thought into TrasnFormers being sexually reproductive. There are numerous others who have including Thunder Thruster and the starter of this thread, Hellbender. On top of that, considering the sheer amount of fan fiction and fan art out there dealing with this subject, there are a lot of fans out there who have thought about the possibilities. So, don't go sayinmg I am the "only one". I am far from the only one.

Yeah, OK, Tramp, whatever. Keep dreaming of robots having sex. Just because you and one or two other sexually frustrated people want to believe Optimus and Elita and other Transformers can go at it when there's no need to, that's fine.

Those of us who live in reality can just sit back and enjoy Transformers as it is without having to wonder something that's already been shown to us dozens of times.

First off, it has nothing to do with being sexually frustrated, and secondly, it is more than one or two people. Either way. IF you want to sit back and believe that factory built protoforms are their only method of creating new TransFormers, you are welcome to, but please don't try to force that view on the rest of us and don't try to kill a discussion we wish to discuss. IF we want to discuss other possibilities please let us do so in peace.

God you're weak. Honestly, you keep telling me "Stop trying to kill the discussion!"and that "You're forcing your opinion on others!" Isn't that exactly what you're doing? Someone disagrees with you, you're trying to shoot their arguments down? How about we stop trying to be a troll, and actually keep some consistency in our attempts at bullshitting people? I don't believe protoforms are the only way, I just said they're built from spare parts, as we've been shown repeatedly, but hey, if you want to believe something that isn't genetically possible, be my guest. You and your small group of deluded robophiles can dream about it all you want. While Simon Furman and IDW are writing Transformers, your little fantasy will never come true.

No, Damolisher, I am trying to have a civil discussion with other like-minded people, and you are coming in and telling all of us that we sould not be discussing this topic because you think it's impossible, and thus pointless, when there is nothing impossible about it. IF the mods have no porblem with this topic, why do you?

My problem is that this has gone from a pointless discussion about the impossible into another multipage argument between you and me, which as gone on about 3 pages too long, all because you have to be right, get the last word, act like the goddamn Seibertron police Force, and write a thousand randomly bolded word essay on why I'm wrong when I'm right, because I've been watching and reading Transformers long enough, and I've seen enough Transformers media to know better.

Tramp wrote:TransFormers were created by a god, not by another race of beings. They were created by Primus in his own image. That is a key difference.

Key difference to what? I never said they were created by anyone other than Primus. -And even if he is referred to as a god, he still has a physical presence (as in, he's not some supernatuaral, ghostly omnipotence) Unicron was certainly a physical being and the reformatting of Megatron et al seemed to be a technological process. It is likely that the creation of the first 13 was also a technological process. I refuse to believe that the first transformers were just "wished" into existence by Primus. At least I think thats what you're getting at.

Some Cybertronians believe that they were indeed the product of evolution as a result of atechnogenesis—the beief that mechanical life sprung from nothingness, much like organic life is believed to have sprung from primordial pools of amino acids according to many, or by God according to others. They have an entire ecosystem on their world based on mechanical life.
Either way, they did develop naturally, not through being invented by organic beings.

You'll have to remind me which obscure corner of canon this is from. Ive certainly never heard it before. Otherwise, this theory of natural evolution is overridden by the creation of the first 13, which seems to be the favoured origin story around here.

And, yes, we know Shockwave engaged in experiments on TransFormers to create new varieties much like we tamper with genetic engineering of animals and plants. He is also rather twisted. Also, selectively choosing genetic traits may be the "height if science" to some, but it is also playing god, and not very ethical. And while that might not be an issue with someone like Shockwave. It would definately be for Autobots. It also does not really promote true genetic diversity nor evolution. More often than not, it promotes conformity and standardization. That is why, even though most TFs during G1 are created from Protoforms imbued with a Spark, in most cases, they don't use a preset schematic, but rather, let the protoform format itself naturally.

Sexual Reproduction guarantees genetic diversity.

This is where things really fall apart. Your own arguments now defeat themselves.

1. If the technology is there to build a TF from the ground up, ie - select every genetic trait at will from the vast collective that is the allspark, that would bve more efficient and effective than random samples from two parental units. Your counter-argument doesnt extend much further than "no it doesn't."

2. Autobots wouldn't "play god" Human's wouldnt play god in this way because genetic engineering is considered a perversion of nature's ways. This is just another example of you thinking that ethics and values that apply to humans must apply to TFs too. As discussed, Transformers are not a product of nature, they are technological to begin with so this would be an ordinary process for them. Furthermore - there a certainly more examples of Autobots "playing god" : ressurecting long dead characters for starters and destroying planets seems to be everyday business for them. Creating life itself can be considered "playing god" and the Autobots have done this on numerous occasions. Lastly, If we go by your logic, the Autobots have had no problem with your "women are only for screwing and having babies" outlook on relationships and I myself dont consider that ethical at all.

3. Protoforms format themselves naturally If a protoform can format itself using the genetic material drawn from the allspark and not some sort of pre-set template, then this actually supports the case for artificial methods having greater scope for genetic diversity than sexual reproduction.

4. Finaly, his is why your argumant defeats itself - If we apply your logic to a certain scenario: When Alpha Trion completely rebuilds Orion and Ariel he will have used the same genetic data in their bodies (because picking and choosing genes is unethical and playing god) This would pretty much destroys their chances of producing gentically diverse offspring and renders thier relationship completely pointless. And since Prime and Elita's relationship is the only one that is specifically refered to being romantic onscreen it casts doubt on all implied relationships in the series.

slycherrychunks wrote:

Tramp wrote:TransFormers were created by a god, not by another race of beings. They were created by Primus in his own image. That is a key difference.

Key difference to what? I never said they were created by anyone other than Primus. -And even if he is referred to as a god, he still has a physical presence (as in, he's not some supernatuaral, ghostly omnipotence) Unicron was certainly a physical being and the reformatting of Megatron et al seemed to be a technological process. It is likely that the creation of the first 13 was also a technological process. I refuse to believe that the first transformers were just "wished" into existence by Primus. At least I think thats what you're getting at.

Both Primus and Unicron's primary form of existance is on the []i]astral[/b] plane. They are indeed supernatural beings. They are literally gods. The have corporial forms in every universe, but thet are still true gods. So, yes, Primus did indeed "wish" the TransFormers into existance. He created them from his own being.

Some Cybertronians believe that they were indeed the product of evolution as a result of atechnogenesis—the beief that mechanical life sprung from nothingness, much like organic life is believed to have sprung from primordial pools of amino acids according to many, or by God according to others. They have an entire ecosystem on their world based on mechanical life.
Either way, they did develop naturally, not through being invented by organic beings.

You'll have to remind me which obscure corner of canon this is from. Ive certainly never heard it before. Otherwise, this theory of natural evolution is overridden by the creation of the first 13, which seems to be the favoured origin story around here.

The source is also [i]MtMtE #8 under the secion on the Matrix. While fact is that Primus created the TransFormers starting with the Original 13, many modern Cybertronians don't believe this. They believe that mechanical life sprung from nothingness and reject the Primus theory. What they don't realize is that there is more than enough evidence to prove Primus' existance than they know.

And, yes, we know Shockwave engaged in experiments on TransFormers to create new varieties much like we tamper with genetic engineering of animals and plants. He is also rather twisted. Also, selectively choosing genetic traits may be the "height if science" to some, but it is also playing god, and not very ethical. And while that might not be an issue with someone like Shockwave. It would definately be for Autobots. It also does not really promote true genetic diversity nor evolution. More often than not, it promotes conformity and standardization. That is why, even though most TFs during G1 are created from Protoforms imbued with a Spark, in most cases, they don't use a preset schematic, but rather, let the protoform format itself naturally.

Sexual Reproduction guarantees genetic diversity.

This is where things really fall apart. Your own arguments now defeat themselves.

1. If the technology is there to build a TF from the ground up, ie - select every genetic trait at will from the vast collective that is the allspark, that would bve more efficient and effective than random samples from two parental units. Your counter-argument doesnt extend much further than "no it doesn't."

Because it doesn't. The whole purpose of genetic engineering is the creat "perfect" organisms, something which is inherently impossible. It is playing God. Random selection does provide much greater diversity because of the factor of chance Chance is random. choosing specific traits is not random, it is focused on selecting only certain traits. The problem with that is that is often results in a smaller gene-pool, and too "pure" of a gene pool, more often than not results in a weakened pool, not a strengthened one. In the end it hurts survival, not helps it. By your own arguement, if we had the technology to genetically engineer children and grow them in vats instead of allowing nature to take its course and allow men and women to have babies the "old-fashioned way", we would do so, and would have no further need for sexual organs, and that is simply not true.

2. Autobots wouldn't "play god" Human's wouldnt play god in this way because genetic engineering is considered a perversion of nature's ways. This is just another example of you thinking that ethics and values that apply to humans must apply to TFs too. As discussed, Transformers are not a product of nature, they are technological to begin with so this would be an ordinary process for them. Furthermore - there a certainly more examples of Autobots "playing god" : ressurecting long dead characters for starters and destroying planets seems to be everyday business for them. Creating life itself can be considered "playing god" and the Autobots have done this on numerous occasions. Lastly, If we go by your logic, the Autobots have had no problem with your "women are only for screwing and having babies" outlook on relationships and I myself dont consider that ethical at all.

They may be technological, but they are not artificial. Life does not have to start as organic. It can conceivably take many forms, be that tehcnoilogically based, silicon based, crystaline, even energy based. Secondly, The issue isn't that "women" are only for making babies. Nor have I ever said that. What I have said is the genders only serve the purpose of sexual reproduction. Only sexually reproducing life have genders. Being male or female only serves reproduction. Courtship only serves reproduction becasue its purpose is to find and woo a mate with whom to have offspring with. That is the purpose of courtship. Romantic rivalry is just that—two individuals in competition over the same prospective mate. Once againa strictly reproductive function.

3. Protoforms format themselves naturally If a protoform can format itself using the genetic material drawn from the allspark and not some sort of pre-set template, then this actually supports the case for artificial methods having greater scope for genetic diversity than sexual reproduction.

Protoforms can develop naturally after being imbued with a spark, or be completed using a preselected design under preset parameters before being imbued with a Spark.

4. Finaly, his is why your argumant defeats itself - If we apply your logic to a certain scenario: When Alpha Trion completely rebuilds Orion and Ariel he will have used the same genetic data in their bodies (because picking and choosing genes is unethical and playing god) This would pretty much destroys their chances of producing gentically diverse offspring and renders thier relationship completely pointless. And since Prime and Elita's relationship is the only one that is specifically refered to being romantic onscreen it casts doubt on all implied relationships in the series.

Not true, because they already have their own genetic structure, they aren't related at all. All Alpha Trion did was rebuild their damaged bodies. He didn't build them from base protoforms. He simply did massive reconstruction.

They didn't have protoforms until Beast Wars, Tramp, so your argument is irrelevant. Sly, it's just like the last argument, he knows he's wrong, and he's on defence.

Damolisher wrote:They didn't have protoforms until Beast Wars, Tramp, so your argument is irrelevant. Sly, it's just like the last argument, he knows he's wrong, and he's on defence.

Damolisher, Protoforms are what all "factory built" transformers are mede from as stated in MtMtE #8. In Beast Wars Protoforms serve a completely different purpose. In Beast Wars The "protoforms" alread had sparks of their own. They were more like the "protoforms" of the movie. Forms Cybertronians took during space flight to conserve power and before selecting an appropriate mode on the planet they were going to. This is completely differnt than their use in G1, which is partiually formed circuitry and a skeleton into which a spark is imbued and a new life is created. While the term "protoform" didn't exist before Beast Wars, It is still a part of the G1 lore.

And there we go, trying to use the book which was written years after the cartoon and Marvel comic and has no impact on either again. How about you give up using MTMTE, no-one gives a crap what the books say. And Tramp, say goodbye to your argument:

1. Arcee's origin: The specific text from the guide is," Notable for her rare female styling and warrior status, Arcee tries hard to shrug off the strange, gender-based bias of her peers. Strange, because Transformers are inherently non-gender-specific, and only some quirk of their timelost origins can account for the difference in appearence and attitude."

2. Season 2 "The Search for Alpha Trion": Refers to Elita-one as being a "female" transformer.....make particular note of the quotations.

Judging from these 2 points alone, it seems to be aiming at a point that female exoskeletons are just a body style & nothing more. & the 'quirk of timelost origins' could just as easily be gender-specific alien influence on a non-gender-specific society as it could be sexual reproduction.

Something else, too, dealing with Primus...if he is a god, & has the ability to make TFs in any form he so pleases, it would be possible to make them in such a way that they could be alive without having to do the wild toaster dance. In fact, IIRC most TF mythology involving Primus has him directly making more TFs or indirectly through artifacts, eliminating a need for reproduction at all. The 'other means' that you keeps championing could just as easily be other artifacts.

There's also something probably worth mentioning reguarding Beast Machines, because it specifically shows that before "the reformatting" Transformers are essentially sparks with mobile suits for bodies, & said bodies are interchangeable, such as the case with all the vehicons commanders being drone bodies with a spark attatched such as Rhinox/Tankor, Jetstorm/Silverbolt, & Thrust/Waspinator, & Megatron having several bodies built for him...one in particular being a variation of Optimal Optimus, minus the gorilla mode. this suggests that individual TFs don't have a "genetic code" inherent to one particular TF, & if they did, changing the body would completely do away with the genetic code in exchange for another. & if that were the case, that would essentially make a TF more of a symbiotic life form (intillegent spark life form collaborating with an unintelligent robotic life form to give a body to an otherwise "etheral" spark)...which would make all kinds of crazy stuff I don't even want to start to think about.

Also, you go on about birth being inappropriate for children, correct? What about shows such as Rugrats, where you see (SHOCK HORROR) Pregnant women? The reason that so many writers skim around the subject of robot pregnancy is because they obviously expected better of Transformers fans than this debate, which clearly isn't the case, being as you still want to beat a dead horse, and still want to inflict your unsubstanciated claims of Robophilia on everyone. Obviously, the writers didn't think there was Transformers fans so sad and pathetic, they've got nothing better to think about than consider robots could have babies.

Clearly, they were wrong.And with that, I bid you, adieu. Sorry, Trampy baby, you lose.

Damolisher wrote:And there we go, trying to use the book which was written years after the cartoon and Marvel comic and has no impact on either again. How about you give up using MTMTE, no-one gives a crap what the books say. And Tramp, say goodbye to your argument:

1. Arcee's origin: The specific text from the guide is," Notable for her rare female styling and warrior status, Arcee tries hard to shrug off the strange, gender-based bias of her peers. Strange, because Transformers are inherently non-gender-specific, and only some quirk of their timelost origins can account for the difference in appearence and attitude."

Damolisher, you are forgetting one part of that passage, a part that you so curiously omitted: . "..And only some quirk of of their timelost origins can account for the differences in her appearance and attitude." You also forget that this ties directly into the passages about the Quintessans and the Well of the Allsparks. Arcee's being femal in what is considered a nongender specific society—not a "genderless" one— has to do with their diostant past, a time when there were males and females all over Cybertron. During this time they also had a close connection to Primus, then they were invaded by the Quintessans at least twice. The secion on the Well of the Allspark specifically states that their connection to Primus was severed as a result of an invasion, and the section on the Quintessans specifically states that they have invaded and colonized Cyberton numerous times, and, based upon both the DW and cartoon continuities were driven off, and that they have had a dramatic effect on the development of the TransFormer race. Given that in the DW run, there were still femmes on Cybertron during the time of War Within, the Quintessans had to have invaded some time after that. since after that time were were no femmes until Arcee. Also, since the ongoing series shows that Arcee was sent by the Quintessans to infiltrate the Autobots and that Firestar, Chromia, Moonracer and Elita-1 are the "extraction squad" about to be sent to collect Hot Rod, The reason why Arcee's design comes from timelost origins becomes fully apparent— all of the females were taken by the Quintessans afteh their last failed invasion attempt.

2. Season 2 "The Search for Alpha Trion": Refers to Elita-one as being a "female" transformer.....make particular note of the quotations.

See above. Also watch the actual episode. Elita-1 and Prime are mates. They are lovers; just as Ironhide and Chromia are, as well as Inferno and Firestar, and Powerglide and Moonracer.

Judging from these 2 points alone, it seems to be aiming at a point that female exoskeletons are just a body style & nothing more. & the 'quirk of timelost origins' could just as easily be gender-specific alien influence on a non-gender-specific society as it could be sexual reproduction.

No, because there were no females after War Within, Arcee was the first in millions of years. TransFormers were not created by organic aliens, they were born of Primus. We know the identities of six of the Original 13, and possibly a seventh, That seventh is a femme. IF Beta is indeed one of the Original 13—and given her comparitive age to Alpha Trion, this is highly likely— then it is likely that there were other females among the Original 13 as well and that Primus created the TransFormers as male and female.

Something else, too, dealing with Primus...if he is a god, & has the ability to make TFs in any form he so pleases, it would be possible to make them in such a way that they could be alive without having to do the wild toaster dance. In fact, IIRC most TF mythology involving Primus has him directly making more TFs or indirectly through artifacts, eliminating a need for reproduction at all. The 'other means' that you keeps championing could just as easily be other artifacts.

They would still need to be capable of procreation. Of autopoietic reproduction. Given that they have genders, then that form of reproduction would logically be sexual, since that is what genders are for. Primus created them with genders, The Quintessans are the ones who stole the femmes away, leaving the remaining TransFormers a single-gender society. And the only known source that directly shows Primus creating one of the Original 13 is from the MArvel run, and that was Prima who grew litrally from Primus' own flesh—the planet Cybertron itself—just as in the Bible, God made Adam from the very earth.

There's also something probably worth mentioning reguarding Beast Machines, because it specifically shows that before "the reformatting" Transformers are essentially sparks with mobile suits for bodies, & said bodies are interchangeable, such as the case with all the vehicons commanders being drone bodies with a spark attatched such as Rhinox/Tankor, Jetstorm/Silverbolt, & Thrust/Waspinator, & Megatron having several bodies built for him...one in particular being a variation of Optimal Optimus, minus the gorilla mode. this suggests that individual TFs don't have a "genetic code" inherent to one particular TF, & if they did, changing the body would completely do away with the genetic code in exchange for another. & if that were the case, that would essentially make a TF more of a symbiotic life form (intillegent spark life form collaborating with an unintelligent robotic life form to give a body to an otherwise "etheral" spark)...which would make all kinds of crazy stuff I don't even want to start to think about.

Not quite..The Spark is akin to the Soul. It is the life force of the TransFormer. without it, the body is just a lifeless husk. Animating a sparkless body is basically creating a zombie—walking dead. The Spark also cannot exist outside a body. In Beast machines, they were imprisoned in a containment vessel, which is a body in a sense. Without a body, the spark returns to Primus. It cannot exist on its own separate from the body.

Also, you go on about birth being inappropriate for children, correct? What about shows such as Rugrats, where you see (SHOCK HORROR) Pregnant women? The reason that so many writers skim around the subject of robot pregnancy is because they obviously expected better of Transformers fans than this debate, which clearly isn't the case, being as you still want to beat a dead horse, and still want to inflict your unsubstanciated claims of Robophilia on everyone. Obviously, the writers didn't think there was Transformers fans so sad and pathetic, they've got nothing better to think about than consider robots could have babies.No, birth[]/b] isn't the problem, showing [b]sex is the problem, even if it is mechanical life forms doing it. That is what is innapropriate for children. Showing them actually in the act is what is inappropriate. And, like I said, there are plenty of indirect evidence to support the possibility of them being capable of sexual reproduction without directly showing them in the act of mating, or giving birth on screen. Being husbands, or wives, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, courting each other and vying for the affections of the opposite sex, and having small children, is all evidence in support of sexual reproduction.

Clearly, they were wrong.And with that, I bid you, adieu. Sorry, Trampy baby, you lose.

Try again Damolisher.

Ugh, this is getting monotonous. Will someone else have a crack at this troll, because I'm beginning to get pissed off with the ridiculousness coming from his posts. He keeps posting things people have argued successfully against, and he contradicted himself once again by using a bible reference here, when he tried to tell me in the last topic like this that the bible doesn't count because it's not a book of science. That, and he only percieves "Sexual" relationships between Inferno, Powerglide, Ironhide and their girlfriends.

Hey, chumpstain, I've got a question for you? How about you go up to a female and tell her her only purpost in life is making babies? Lets see how far that gets you. I bet you're still single if that's the attitude you take in every day life. Which also explains why you're a 37 year old robophile.

There you go twisting the meanings of people's words around.

Damolisher, The only reason why genders exist is reproductive. The only reason why I am male is to sire offspring. The only reason why a woman is female is to bear offspring. If we were not sexually reproductive we would not have genders. Biologically, that is the only purpose for being either male or female. There is no other purpose for genders. That isn't sexism, that is basic biology. It is a fact of life. Being male or female has only to do with sexual reproduction, nothing else.

Yes, so once again, you're saying women are just there to have babies. Stop being so goddamn misogynistic, Tramp!

For the hundreth bloody time, Female Transformers are female IN APPEARENCE ONLY! It says so in your goddamn MTMTE books which you're so fond of.

Believe what you will Damolisher. But stop twisting peoples words. If we reproduced asexually, we would not be either male or female. The only reason sex exists is for reproduction. The only reason genders as a whole exist is for reproduction. That does not mean that the only purpose women have is to make babies. It means thet the only purpose men and women are male and female is to produce offspring. The purpose of the genders specifically is reproductive.
Secondly, No, MtMtE does not say that Arcee is female in appearance only. All it says is that Kup described her as resembling females of other species because that is the only point of reference he had to give the other, much younger Autobots. She is not a feminine TransFormer, she is a female TransFormer.

Okay, okay. While your dedicated research into this subject is commendable, I didn't want to cause problems with my question, only solve them. Please, please, please don't argue about such a trivial subject, it only tends to turn others away who might have a valid opinion when they read this thread. I DO respect your opinions, but PLEASE don't debate this too heavily, you will only give yourselves headaches. Here's an idea, close your eyes, imagine two robots, male and female, then imagine they proclaim their love for each other, then they decide to 'unite'. What happens next? If that doesn't work, look at your Transformers figures and ask,'How do you guys procreate?'. That, or debate this via PM.

back to topic! the one which assumes they can mate, not if they can or cannot, just if they can, how?



does anyone else have any theories on how TFs mate?

Jeez, people around here need to take a pill. Calm down. This is discussion. Not war.

Anyway, Tranp and Damolisher, I take it you both are very supportive of you fanwanking ideas. Tramp sees TF's come to be with sex. Damolisher thinks they come to be by programming. I see it as a combination of the two. Transformers unleash their sparks and they mingle with each other, (the "sex" part), then, the sparks' essence flows into a spark. It becomes a spark. It is then placed into a PROGRAMMED Protoform, with each of the Transformers' generic code in the protoform. It becomes the "child" of the two.

I also see as there are other ways to make them. Primus can gift a Protoform a spark, give it personalit from Vecotor Sigma, and you got a bot.