The Energon Pub

Well porsnaly I don't belive that one being is able to bild the univers. I think Odin is more belivable.

Interesting thread. If only for the dramatics...

On a more serious note, the answer to the question posed by the original post is not as simple as "then it is wrong" or "it cannot be wrong." And surprisingly, it has a lot to do with logic.

There are innumerable faiths that have existed, currently exist, and have yet to exist, and perhaps an even greater number that will never be conceived in the minds of humanity. Now, from a statistical standpoint, there is a fairly good chance that none of the belief systems created thus far are accurate in describing any aspect of existence beyond the empirical realm--perhaps even a greater chance than any singular faith is accurate (more on that in a bit). Because of this meddlesome problem of infinity, there is no experimental process humanity is capable of--and possibly never will be--to find any sort of evidence of what exists beyond our perceptions of the universe.

The other aspect of this question is that it seems to imply a binary in some way: the same modus operandi behind Pascal's infamous wager, that there is a singular Christian belief or a lack of said belief. As there are an infinite number of possibilities that all aspects of Christianity are erroneous, there potentially remains yet another infinite number of possibilities that portions of Christian belief are accurate. The same could be said of any faith, no matter how idiosyncratic or structured--something Pascal failed to account for: an infinite number of possibilties when calculating the probabilities of his wager. It could have been an intentional omission; after all, when dealing with a number of outcomes that approaches infinity, the probability of each outcome approaches zero, and that is hardly of use to any gamblers (which were, oddly enough, Pascal's patrons before turning to theological matters).

It also doesn't help the question any when this is applied to the sheer variation between Christian sects--a variation so great that it borders on idiosyncratic. This doesn't necessarily translate to Catholics v. Protestants, or even Methodists v. Lutherans; more so, the fact that two people sitting together in the same pew (in the same church) may not share the same precise belief system. Is it, then, necessarily true that the degree of variation could mean that two people who believe in all but the same detail regarding one of the Commandments would not be equally accurate? And as Christianity shares many elements with Islam and Judaism, if the entirety of all Christianity, in its variations, is "wrong," would that not also condemn aspects of Islam and Judaism--possibly risking the "validity" of those paths as well? Even if only certain aspects of Christianity are in error--what implications then exist for other related monotheistic paths?

This is where things become a bit, in a manner of speaking, complicated...all without qualitative ethical judgment of Christianity, to boot.

In short, I imagine that there are two answers to the original question. First: that the real answer lies in some infinite logic puzzle that would be fun to some (but an incessant annoyance to most) and that no human would be capable of solving. Second: that since there is no way whatsoever to prove that one particular faith is accurate, that everybody should just roll with a faith that feels true to them, and just accept that everyone has the same odds of being "right." I don't expect either to catch on right away, but hey. I have faith that someday it will.

Their was a guy that sought out to prove that Christanty did not exsit, in the process he got saved and wrote a book about it. I do not know what his name is but someone can find it.

BLACKBIRD wrote:Their was a guy that sought out to prove that Christanty did not exsit, in the process he got saved and wrote a book about it. I do not know what his name is but someone can find it.

It's logically impossible to prove something doesn't exist.

BLACKBIRD wrote:Their was a guy that sought out to prove that Christanty did not exsit, in the process he got saved and wrote a book about it. I do not know what his name is but someone can find it.

and yet at the turn of the 18th century scientists and gentleman set out to prove young earth creationsim, unfortunately they cam back with the age of the earth being a billion or few years too old, and the theory of evolution.

taken literally the bible is wrong. this somewhat throws aspersions upon it's author. and means you need to interpret it, being that humans are fallibe in nature and generally not very close in our thinking to gods thinking, it's highly improbably that what we think it meant is what it meant for it to mean.

I've considered this many a time - if its wrong, I'd like Aetheists to consider if they're wrong, actually... anyway.

If I'm wrong, if the Judeo-Christain God don't exist and I find myself facing Anubis holding a jar with my heart in it, then that's no big deal, I haven't done anything hell worthy, by any other religions standards. If I'm reincarnated, meh, I dont' care if I come back as a roach. And if I find God's a woman, and she's a feminists and everyone is dancing around a may-pole or whatever, I doubt she's going to send me to hell, she'll probably be like "Well, Jeanette, I know you annoyed the hell out of a lot of feminists and heathens with your Catholic Pro-Life jargon, but you meant well, so grab a piece of pig from the spit and join the carnal festivities..." (I'd be pissed if they were all vegans)

The only way we're really screwed if those religions that say "if you're not a part of this religion, you're going to our hell".

And if there's nothing after death, no soul, no nothing, well, we just end up a maggoty corpse in a box or a pile of ash, we're not going to be aroudn to care.

Of course, if extreme Christains are right, and an Aetheist dies, what are they goign to find... a very angry, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual, anti-whatever God who ain't going to accept the "I didn't know it was wrong" BS.

I feel like BBQ now. I think I'll go to Subway and get their new Lamb sandwich - its really good.

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:Of course, if extreme Christains are right, and an Aetheist dies, what are they goign to find... a very angry, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual, anti-whatever God who ain't going to accept the "I didn't know it was wrong" BS.

Hard to belive that the nature of God is one of the biggist contradictions of the Bible isn't it

Unless the Christian God is actually merciful then, yes, everyone who does not follow the Bible will be tormented for eternity. Which would be rather disappointing, IMHO!

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:I've considered this many a time - if its wrong, I'd like Aetheists to consider if they're wrong, actually... anyway.

If I'm wrong, if the Judeo-Christain God don't exist and I find myself facing Anubis holding a jar with my heart in it, then that's no big deal, I haven't done anything hell worthy, by any other religions standards. If I'm reincarnated, meh, I dont' care if I come back as a roach. And if I find God's a woman, and she's a feminists and everyone is dancing around a may-pole or whatever, I doubt she's going to send me to hell, she'll probably be like "Well, Jeanette, I know you annoyed the hell out of a lot of feminists and heathens with your Catholic Pro-Life jargon, but you meant well, so grab a piece of pig from the spit and join the carnal festivities..." (I'd be pissed if they were all vegans)

The only way we're really screwed if those religions that say "if you're not a part of this religion, you're going to our hell".

And if there's nothing after death, no soul, no nothing, well, we just end up a maggoty corpse in a box or a pile of ash, we're not going to be aroudn to care.

Of course, if extreme Christains are right, and an Aetheist dies, what are they goign to find... a very angry, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual, anti-whatever God who ain't going to accept the "I didn't know it was wrong" BS.

I feel like BBQ now. I think I'll go to Subway and get their new Lamb sandwich - its really good.

so we should beleive out of fear of going to hell?

go back and read my posts poohey, you know read the thread rather than just jump in and spout an opinion. the non-christians have considered there wrong, in fact the reson the weak atheists are weak atheists is becuase they cannot be certain, and then go back and read the bible, god's omnibenovelent, apparently, so he's not going to send me to hell or in fact have me live in fear of him, unless he doesn't actually love me and won't actually forgive my sins but that would mean christianity is wrong.

really poohey trying to scare people into beleif of an all loving deity is the height of irony.

I'm not really decided on the existence of hell. If God loves us so much, why would he send us to an eternal state of torment? If it exists at all, it must be temporary. At least that's what I think.

Besides, infinite punishment for finite crime doesn't really mesh well with the idea of a merciful and just god.

Whilst reading through this thread, I was originally wary of Tammuz' so called 'Nazi' opinions of wishing to wipe out Religion, but after wading through the posts, I have to say I side with him, as it would appear his viewpoint is the same as mine.

Being an Atheist or a Theist does defy logic as both require unfounded personal faith. Being an agnostic, or a 'soft Atheist' is truly the only logical choice- you can't prove things either way, so sit on the fence, and admit that God could exist. This however, does not mean that people shouldn't have faith- I would dare go as far to say as it's human nature to hold onto beliefs for the comfort of oneself- Religion is there to make people believe that life isn't pointless, whilst Hard Atheism is to provide comfort in knowing that one has full control of their life. There's obviously much more to either belief, though I tend to enjoy keeping my posts succinct. Heh.

Agnosticism is the position that there is indeed a god, we just can't truly know anything about this deity due to it being vastly above us. If I don't misremember completely, anyway... Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

Atheism, though, is the lack of belief. Extremist atheism is the denial of the possibility of gods existing at all. "Soft" atheism is not believing in any god, "hard" atheism is believing that there is not and cannot be any god. The latter is a belief system albeit a particularly odd one. The former is not a belief system at all and lack of belief in general is the default position to take on any matter were evidence is not provided.



But yes, shrugging and saying "I don't know" is the only rational choice.

Matrix. wrote:Whilst reading through this thread, I was originally wary of Tammuz' so called 'Nazi' opinions of wishing to wipe out Religion, but after wading through the posts, I have to say I side with him, as it would appear his viewpoint is the same as mine.

Being an Atheist or a Theist does defy logic as both require unfounded personal faith. Being an agnostic, or a 'soft Atheist' is truly the only logical choice- you can't prove things either way, so sit on the fence, and admit that God could exist. This however, does not mean that people shouldn't have faith- I would dare go as far to say as it's human nature to hold onto beliefs for the comfort of oneself- Religion is there to make people believe that life isn't pointless, whilst Hard Atheism is to provide comfort in knowing that one has full control of their life. There's obviously much more to either belief, though I tend to enjoy keeping my posts succinct. Heh.

thank you for being polite enough to read through the entire thread.

Kjell wrote:Agnosticism is the position that there is indeed a god, we just can't truly know anything about this deity due to it being vastly above us. If I don't misremember completely, anyway... Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

Agnosticism is the position that we don't know enough to decide whether or not there is or is not a god, and that the whole mess is probably not worth spending too much time arguing or killing about until we at least know something.

Yes, I've since refreshed my memory on the matter. I was mixing them up with, er, theistic agnosticists or something... Whatever it was, it was obscure.

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:


I feel like BBQ now. I think I'll go to Subway and get their new Lamb sandwich - its really good.

A lamb sandwich from Subway! This is what I get for not living in NZ (and maybe Iceland) and to add insult to injury, no beer in the movie theaters either.

...

Since I don't feel like writing a response to 10 pages of discussion, I will settle to just post a quick answer to the original question.

If Christianity is wrong, so what. Did you follow the teachings of Jesus and tried to live up to His example? Have you done what you could to alleviate the suffering of your fellow man? Have you, generally lived a good life? If you can answer yes to all of that or a "I tried really hard", then you should have no regrets when your time finally comes.
Now on the other hand, if God does exist, then you're in like Flynn and no worries.

Personally, I'm agnostic and if there is an afterlife and God decides to send me to hell for my lack of faith then fine by me. We were given free will and I exercised that free will. Therefore, when the time comes I will face the consequences of how I lived my life. If there is no God, as I said above, the people of faith have lost nothing and neither have I so there.

With the rant done, I think I'll stop there for now.

permission to speak. i believe in this saying which is taken from the proverbs in the bible. "that if you recieve a a gift of great value, it is your obligation to share that gift many times over". and that is why i am here to speak. may i start. autobots! I myself experienced GOD. and I need not to defend myself why, how or what. seek GOD yourself! GOD gives you the gift of curiosity to seek HIM yourself. piece of advice, please study satans ways! he is the megatron deceiver. remember he deceives. deprives us of what is real. of what is true. for he wants us to fall with him.hahaha foolish decepticons. christians! hail be to GOD! dont you know that discovery channel that NASA has long discovered an asteroid about to hit the earth! now we know! so be prepared. forgive and repent! GODspeed to all autobots!

supremo barricade wrote:permission to speak. i believe in this saying which is taken from the proverbs in the bible. "that if you recieve a a gift of great value, it is your obligation to share that gift many times over". and that is why i am here to speak. may i start. autobots! I myself experienced GOD. and I need not to defend myself why, how or what. seek GOD yourself! GOD gives you the gift of curiosity to seek HIM yourself. piece of advice, please study satans ways! he is the megatron deceiver. remember he deceives. deprives us of what is real. of what is true. for he wants us to fall with him.hahaha foolish decepticons. christians! hail be to GOD! dont you know that discovery channel that NASA has long discovered an asteroid about to hit the earth! now we know! so be prepared. forgive and repent! GODspeed to all autobots!

The fact that you used the terms "Autobots," "Decepticons," and "Megatron," really throws your argument out the window.

Not to mention you sound like something my SPAM-blocker would filter on my e-mail.

supremo barricade wrote:permission to speak. i believe in this saying which is taken from the proverbs in the bible. "that if you recieve a a gift of great value, it is your obligation to share that gift many times over". and that is why i am here to speak. may i start. autobots! I myself experienced GOD. and I need not to defend myself why, how or what. seek GOD yourself! GOD gives you the gift of curiosity to seek HIM yourself. piece of advice, please study satans ways! he is the megatron deceiver. remember he deceives. deprives us of what is real. of what is true. for he wants us to fall with him.hahaha foolish decepticons. christians! hail be to GOD! dont you know that discovery channel that NASA has long discovered an asteroid about to hit the earth! now we know! so be prepared. forgive and repent! GODspeed to all autobots!

Are you speaking in tongues, or something?

crazy2506 wrote:

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:


I feel like BBQ now. I think I'll go to Subway and get their new Lamb sandwich - its really good.

A lamb sandwich from Subway! This is what I get for not living in NZ (and maybe Iceland) and to add insult to injury, no beer in the movie theaters either.

...

Since I don't feel like writing a response to 10 pages of discussion, I will settle to just post a quick answer to the original question.

If Christianity is wrong, so what. Did you follow the teachings of Jesus and tried to live up to His example? Have you done what you could to alleviate the suffering of your fellow man? Have you, generally lived a good life? If you can answer yes to all of that or a "I tried really hard", then you should have no regrets when your time finally comes.
Now on the other hand, if God does exist, then you're in like Flynn and no worries.

Personally, I'm agnostic and if there is an afterlife and God decides to send me to hell for my lack of faith then fine by me. We were given free will and I exercised that free will. Therefore, when the time comes I will face the consequences of how I lived my life. If there is no God, as I said above, the people of faith have lost nothing and neither have I so there.

With the rant done, I think I'll stop there for now.

Now the question of "free will." I personally think it's an oxymoron, but let's see where this goes.

Now, I base my personal sense of responsibility, if I have any sense, on the understanding of causality and capability for restraint (however limited), because the passions and thoughts that will our existence and drive us forward seem predestined and unchosen in by our own selves (it's not like you can choose your setting before you are born, for choosing even then requires existing, and having a predisposition for the choice). We, or or minds, are products of what happened before us, so the total freedom of the will is negated. Even now, you make decisions based on your own inclinations and wishes and think nothing of it, while not realizing sole responsibility rests nowhere-- I even question the word "responsibility" in itself.

More than 'responsibility,' I see things as I want them to be and as I have agreed to make them and go with it according to my wish. I doubt you'll find any difference with anyone else.

The Avatar of Man wrote:

crazy2506 wrote:

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:


I feel like BBQ now. I think I'll go to Subway and get their new Lamb sandwich - its really good.

A lamb sandwich from Subway! This is what I get for not living in NZ (and maybe Iceland) and to add insult to injury, no beer in the movie theaters either.

...

Since I don't feel like writing a response to 10 pages of discussion, I will settle to just post a quick answer to the original question.

If Christianity is wrong, so what. Did you follow the teachings of Jesus and tried to live up to His example? Have you done what you could to alleviate the suffering of your fellow man? Have you, generally lived a good life? If you can answer yes to all of that or a "I tried really hard", then you should have no regrets when your time finally comes.
Now on the other hand, if God does exist, then you're in like Flynn and no worries.

Personally, I'm agnostic and if there is an afterlife and God decides to send me to hell for my lack of faith then fine by me. We were given free will and I exercised that free will. Therefore, when the time comes I will face the consequences of how I lived my life. If there is no God, as I said above, the people of faith have lost nothing and neither have I so there.

With the rant done, I think I'll stop there for now.

Now the question of "free will." I personally think it's an oxymoron, but let's see where this goes.

Now, I base my personal sense of responsibility, if I have any sense, on the understanding of causality and capability for restraint (however limited), because the passions and thoughts that will our existence and drive us forward seem predestined and unchosen in by our own selves (it's not like you can choose your setting before you are born, for choosing even then requires existing, and having a predisposition for the choice). We, or or minds, are products of what happened before us, so the total freedom of the will is negated. Even now, you make decisions based on your own inclinations and wishes and think nothing of it, while not realizing sole responsibility rests nowhere-- I even question the word "responsibility" in itself.

More than 'responsibility,' I see things as I want them to be and as I have agreed to make them and go with it according to my wish. I doubt you'll find any difference with anyone else.

I hope I'm reading you correctly and if not, I apologize, but I think what you're trying to say is that my own nature, choices and success/failures were determined before I was even born. Yes?

Now on to some thoughts of mine.

The concept of "free will" is only an oxymoron if your coming from a Calvinist perspective. I personally have a problem with the coupling of predestination and the concept of an all-loving and caring God. Those two concepts really don't mesh in my opinion. True, you don't have any control or "choice" as to which station your born into, but that's a crap shoot, really and using that to justify who is good, moral and just is in my opinion pretentious.

Now, if I'm reading you correctly, I think you're coming more from the direction of "Spinoza's god" concept rather than from a Calvinistic view point. I could be wrong. Therefore, my belief that I have free will is just an illusion presented to me by some higher power for my own sense of comfort. Again, my own personal experience with life suggests otherwise and we can agree to disagree here.

So, do you agree with Einstein's quote that, "God doesn't play with dice."? I think that I know your answer, but just curious.

Anyone else? Do you think the universe is deterministic or not and should this be asked in another thread since this one is already 10 pages long?

Still want a lamb sandwich from subway and beer in the movie theaters. Ah, the simple pleasures of life.

Now, time for coffee.

crazy2506 wrote:

The Avatar of Man wrote:

crazy2506 wrote:

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:


I feel like BBQ now. I think I'll go to Subway and get their new Lamb sandwich - its really good.

A lamb sandwich from Subway! This is what I get for not living in NZ (and maybe Iceland) and to add insult to injury, no beer in the movie theaters either.

...

Since I don't feel like writing a response to 10 pages of discussion, I will settle to just post a quick answer to the original question.

If Christianity is wrong, so what. Did you follow the teachings of Jesus and tried to live up to His example? Have you done what you could to alleviate the suffering of your fellow man? Have you, generally lived a good life? If you can answer yes to all of that or a "I tried really hard", then you should have no regrets when your time finally comes.
Now on the other hand, if God does exist, then you're in like Flynn and no worries.

Personally, I'm agnostic and if there is an afterlife and God decides to send me to hell for my lack of faith then fine by me. We were given free will and I exercised that free will. Therefore, when the time comes I will face the consequences of how I lived my life. If there is no God, as I said above, the people of faith have lost nothing and neither have I so there.

With the rant done, I think I'll stop there for now.

Now the question of "free will." I personally think it's an oxymoron, but let's see where this goes.

Now, I base my personal sense of responsibility, if I have any sense, on the understanding of causality and capability for restraint (however limited), because the passions and thoughts that will our existence and drive us forward seem predestined and unchosen in by our own selves (it's not like you can choose your setting before you are born, for choosing even then requires existing, and having a predisposition for the choice). We, or or minds, are products of what happened before us, so the total freedom of the will is negated. Even now, you make decisions based on your own inclinations and wishes and think nothing of it, while not realizing sole responsibility rests nowhere-- I even question the word "responsibility" in itself.

More than 'responsibility,' I see things as I want them to be and as I have agreed to make them and go with it according to my wish. I doubt you'll find any difference with anyone else.

I hope I'm reading you correctly and if not, I apologize, but I think what you're trying to say is that my own nature, choices and success/failures were determined before I was even born. Yes?

Now on to some thoughts of mine.

The concept of "free will" is only an oxymoron if your coming from a Calvinist perspective. I personally have a problem with the coupling of predestination and the concept of an all-loving and caring God. Those two concepts really don't mesh in my opinion. True, you don't have any control or "choice" as to which station your born into, but that's a crap shoot, really and using that to justify who is good, moral and just is in my opinion pretentious.

Now, if I'm reading you correctly, I think you're coming more from the direction of "Spinoza's god" concept rather than from a Calvinistic view point. I could be wrong. Therefore, my belief that I have free will is just an illusion presented to me by some higher power for my own sense of comfort. Again, my own personal experience with life suggests otherwise and we can agree to disagree here.

So, do you agree with Einstein's quote that, "God doesn't play with dice."? I think that I know your answer, but just curious.

Anyone else? Do you think the universe is deterministic or not and should this be asked in another thread since this one is already 10 pages long?

Still want a lamb sandwich from subway and beer in the movie theaters. Ah, the simple pleasures of life.

Now, time for coffee.

Essentially the second, though I don't quite understand your higher-power reference. Once you study biology and things like genetics and chemo-conditioning, you get to realize how little control we have over our own minds. You cannot decide to do anything you would never do by definition of it.

I mention many of us can understand causality and restraint of action, and, if we can understand we will most likely receive reparations for an action, we have already in part agreed to the terms of committing the action.

However, even that understanding is deeply defined by out own predetermined settings. You choose to do something, yes, but the mechanics that decide it where not chosen by you, for choice demands both dispostion and existence to decide, and even by attempting to go against your nature, you fulfill your nature-- again, you by definition cannot do what you would not want to do, and those deeper determinants of want are not chosen.

EDIT: As an aside, I generally define will as the drive to be and thrive, usually based under our own terms.

Studies on closed systems come into play as well. If the universe is a closed system, ie. not affected by anything outside of it, then it is self sustained within itself-- the only things that determine what happens within is what is within. If the universe is defined as everything in existence, than nothing is outside, and thus the universe is deterministic.

The Avatar of Man wrote:

crazy2506 wrote:

The Avatar of Man wrote:

crazy2506 wrote:

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:


I feel like BBQ now. I think I'll go to Subway and get their new Lamb sandwich - its really good.

A lamb sandwich from Subway! This is what I get for not living in NZ (and maybe Iceland) and to add insult to injury, no beer in the movie theaters either.

...

Since I don't feel like writing a response to 10 pages of discussion, I will settle to just post a quick answer to the original question.

If Christianity is wrong, so what. Did you follow the teachings of Jesus and tried to live up to His example? Have you done what you could to alleviate the suffering of your fellow man? Have you, generally lived a good life? If you can answer yes to all of that or a "I tried really hard", then you should have no regrets when your time finally comes.
Now on the other hand, if God does exist, then you're in like Flynn and no worries.

Personally, I'm agnostic and if there is an afterlife and God decides to send me to hell for my lack of faith then fine by me. We were given free will and I exercised that free will. Therefore, when the time comes I will face the consequences of how I lived my life. If there is no God, as I said above, the people of faith have lost nothing and neither have I so there.

With the rant done, I think I'll stop there for now.

Now the question of "free will." I personally think it's an oxymoron, but let's see where this goes.

Now, I base my personal sense of responsibility, if I have any sense, on the understanding of causality and capability for restraint (however limited), because the passions and thoughts that will our existence and drive us forward seem predestined and unchosen in by our own selves (it's not like you can choose your setting before you are born, for choosing even then requires existing, and having a predisposition for the choice). We, or or minds, are products of what happened before us, so the total freedom of the will is negated. Even now, you make decisions based on your own inclinations and wishes and think nothing of it, while not realizing sole responsibility rests nowhere-- I even question the word "responsibility" in itself.

More than 'responsibility,' I see things as I want them to be and as I have agreed to make them and go with it according to my wish. I doubt you'll find any difference with anyone else.

I hope I'm reading you correctly and if not, I apologize, but I think what you're trying to say is that my own nature, choices and success/failures were determined before I was even born. Yes?

Now on to some thoughts of mine.

The concept of "free will" is only an oxymoron if your coming from a Calvinist perspective. I personally have a problem with the coupling of predestination and the concept of an all-loving and caring God. Those two concepts really don't mesh in my opinion. True, you don't have any control or "choice" as to which station your born into, but that's a crap shoot, really and using that to justify who is good, moral and just is in my opinion pretentious.

Now, if I'm reading you correctly, I think you're coming more from the direction of "Spinoza's god" concept rather than from a Calvinistic view point. I could be wrong. Therefore, my belief that I have free will is just an illusion presented to me by some higher power for my own sense of comfort. Again, my own personal experience with life suggests otherwise and we can agree to disagree here.

So, do you agree with Einstein's quote that, "God doesn't play with dice."? I think that I know your answer, but just curious.

Anyone else? Do you think the universe is deterministic or not and should this be asked in another thread since this one is already 10 pages long?

Still want a lamb sandwich from subway and beer in the movie theaters. Ah, the simple pleasures of life.

Now, time for coffee.

Essentially the second, though I don't quite understand your higher-power reference. Once you study biology and things like genetics and chemo-conditioning, you get to realize how little control we have over our own minds. You cannot decide to do anything you would never do by definition of it.

I mention many of us can understand causality and restraint of action, and, if we can understand we will most likely receive reparations for an action, we have already in part agreed to the terms of committing the action.

However, even that understanding is deeply defined by out own predetermined settings. You choose to do something, yes, but the mechanics that decide it where not chosen by you, for choice demands both dispostion and existence to decide, and even by attempting to go against your nature, you fulfill your nature-- again, you by definition cannot do what you would not want to do, and those deeper determinants of want are not chosen.

EDIT: As an aside, I generally define will as the drive to be and thrive, usually based under our own terms.

Studies on closed systems come into play as well. If the universe is a closed system, ie. not affected by anything outside of it, then it is self sustained within itself-- the only things that determine what happens within is what is within. If the universe is defined as everything in existence, than nothing is outside, and thus the universe is deterministic.

The "higher power" reference was me just trying to be more general. Not that I've read a lot of Spinoza (know a little about him from reading some of Einstein's essays on religion which is just enough background to be dangerous), but he was a determinist. If you haven't read anything by him, you may want to give a quick perusal of his writings. I personally plan on reading of his works (at least in the near term) because a) I disagree with the basic philosophy of determinism and b) don't have the time.

Haven't studied a lot of biology and genetics (only one course in college), but I can see how you could get that opinion after a bit of study into those subjects. Now, I think we can agree, for sake of argument, that someone's basic personality, temperament and basic inclinations are influenced by one's genetic background. I strongly disagree that genetics determines the outcome of one's life as strongly as you assert (let me know if I misread) since I feel you're being reductionist on this point. I feel that you are not accounting for the environment (family dynamics and socio-economic status for example) and life experience. Those two general categories have more impact on the direction of a person's life than just genetics alone.

Your definition of will is a valid one. Not one I would subscribe to exactly, but valid.

The universe as a closed system. It's quite possible that it is a closed system, but I would posit that it's large enough to behave as an open system. That's starting to get into cosmology, which I have no background in and will leave alone. As to whether the universe itself is deterministic, I would say not according to a quantum mechanical perspective. If you want a better discussion of that than I can probably give, I would recommend reading Feynman's lectures on quantum mechanics if you haven't already.

Now for the cope out:

With that, I'm going to have to give you the last word for awhile. The next month is going to be hectic, but I will try and reply when I get a chance.

Shadowman has asked an interesting question here, which has had many responses and that is wonderful.

Me personally, I don't care what people believe, as long as they don't try and shove it on me.

I'm not religious par se and I don't label myself as anything either, what is the point.
I live my life trying to do the best by others, be polite, and respectful, do me wrong and that will change.(Although I'll feel bad about it)

I am of the belief, that if you think outside the box, look at the world as a whole, rather than any one species, race, or creed; then your aces mate!

But if you harm others, just because of some singular belief, idealism and political agenda, then you are a selfish rotten person who doesn't deserve what this planet has to offer.

Religion is only a problem, when it interferes in others lives, regardless of belief.
I must admit I do not understand the fanaticism of many Christians, but they are just scared, like all of us I guess.

The one thing that is hard for humans to deal with, is the unknown.
I believe in extraterrestrial life, not just because I do, but because I have seen one and many UFO's as well.
Now many would think me nuts because of that very statement, but why? Is it so difficult to accept life other than what is on Earth?
This from the same people that believe in a God they have never met and Angels they have never seen(although some say they have) and so on.

That leads back to the fear of the unknown, if it doesn't conform to your own little world, then it must be a lie.

The same is for God, although in the old testament it was stated as Gods, which causes some concern on the validity of the Bible for a start, too many contradictions.

I must admit, I have difficulty believing in the one god, seems too illogical to me and doesn't conform to what is known of life, as a metaphor makes more sense. But then, that is just me.