The Energon Pub

Star_ling wrote:

Sledge wrote:

Zombie Starscream wrote:G1 cartoon. Avoids throwing in gods and Furmanisms.

This one fits best for me too!

Agnostic TF fans unite into... UNCERTAINTY!!!

Almost, I prefer the G1 cartoon creation story as well. Which is the opposite of my real life beliefs so make of me what you will.

Also I don't think the writers of the Primus/Unicron story meant to "promote" a certain religion in favor of others. Perhaps they thought it better to write using a belief they had some actual knowledge about, like perhaps the writers of Beast Machines did. I personally don't believe they were doing so to be deep, mysterious, or hide a bigger message or opinion. This is Transformers we're talking about not Narnia, The Golden Compass, Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz or even Star Wars. Though TF and SW can be compared a bit. They were just entertaining kids the best way they knew how even if it did include Carbombya.

Its that same thing with me. I am a Christian, but I like the idea of never actually seeing a Primus, as it actually adds more mystery to what they believe. I also wished they never came up with the idea of sparks, as I think Transformers are a lot more interesting when Starscream's ghost appears and it is a real ghost, and not some indestructable spark. It makes it more creepy that way, and adds another mystery to Tfs.

Mine is a mixture of two of them. I believe that there was Primus and Unicron. Primus created Cybertron, Vector Sigma, and the original 13 Transformers. The Fallen "fell" to the side of Unicron and the battle between Primus and Unicron begun and they both became imprisoned in their respective prisons.

Then, the Quintessons found Cybertron and the technological lifeforms' remains. Using this new technology, they created the mindless robotic slaves used for factory work and military applications. Then, in time, Vector Sigma discovered the new robotic lifeforms and began to secretly give intelligence and life to them. Hence, creating the ancestors of the Autobots and Decepticons.

Zombie Starscream wrote:

Star_ling wrote:

Sledge wrote:
This one fits best for me too!

Agnostic TF fans unite into... UNCERTAINTY!!!

Almost, I prefer the G1 cartoon creation story as well. Which is the opposite of my real life beliefs so make of me what you will.

Also I don't think the writers of the Primus/Unicron story meant to "promote" a certain religion in favor of others. Perhaps they thought it better to write using a belief they had some actual knowledge about, like perhaps the writers of Beast Machines did. I personally don't believe they were doing so to be deep, mysterious, or hide a bigger message or opinion. This is Transformers we're talking about not Narnia, The Golden Compass, Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz or even Star Wars. Though TF and SW can be compared a bit. They were just entertaining kids the best way they knew how even if it did include Carbombya.

Its that same thing with me. I am a Christian, but I like the idea of never actually seeing a Primus, as it actually adds more mystery to what they believe. I also wished they never came up with the idea of sparks, as I think Transformers are a lot more interesting when Starscream's ghost appears and it is a real ghost, and not some indestructable spark. It makes it more creepy that way, and adds another mystery to Tfs.

Sparks are fine to me, just think batteries basically. My nitpicks with Transformers are minor at best, you don't wanna hear my problems with Star Wars!! We'd be here all day. I'd be a bigger fan if not for them.

What I really am interested in seeing is what creation story they have planned for Animated and IDW. I see quints post All Hail Megatron.

BlackSilverBot wrote:

Sledge wrote:G1 cartoon. Avoids throwing in gods and Furmanisms.

I agree with you totally, there should be no fake religion in transformers.

Agreed. Furman needs to retire and new writers need to come in and clean up his awful ideas.

My personal G1 creation story takes elements from BM, G1, and Movie...

About 65 mya, a group of Quintesson exiles led a small expedition to an organic planet in search of a new homeworld. With them they brought the AllSpark, a scientific marvel that had gotten them kicked off Quintessa. However, due to various reasons (internal strife, hostile climates, etc.) the Quintessons were forced to leave the planet. In their haste to leave, they forgot their AllSpark and some of their more complex machinery...

The AllSpark began to upgrade these machines, making them into the first Transformers. These Transformers began to upgrade themselves and replicate exponentially, with each generation becoming more and more intelligent. Finally, as sapience emerged in the Transformers, they covered the whole planet with their cities, quashing all organic life. As time went by, they forgot about their creation, choosing instead to worship a time-distorted version of the AllSpark as a being called 'Primus'.

I mix it about.

Unicron and Primus faught, Primus trapped Unicron in a rock, getting himself trapped as well. Time passes, Primus' is the plantoid we saw in Call of the Primatives. The Quintessons found VS, which was on that planetoid while working with Primacron on joint projects, but had a falling out, to harness Primus' power and makes the Transformers. Unicron appears to Primacron in a dream, which inspires the simiean scientist to create a body for Unicron's spirit. Unicron gets his new body, and turns on Primacron, which causes the Primacron's assistent, which I think is Primus's spirit, to escape to Cybertron.

Primacron's assistent, in the object which becomes the Matrix, being part of Primus, is found to work with the VS unit.

the bio species,that went tech..won't mess with. the quints..either..
but,after the quints..there were the cybs. some were pure auto..then
decept. quints may have developed these machines..as workers.
being nice about descripts.

as anything...mech evols. leaves many things open as..former
autos,go decept..or vice versa. this is something,kinda bantered
about friends. logical...there a lot of similar..so.. .

one's little twist. just getting into the dw..comics.. ..
gremlock..

Pure G2 here, baby. Quints built Cyb, two product lines, revolution, civil war, et cetera.

Um, that's the cartoon version, not G2.

I quite like the Unicron/Primus idea, and the original 13. And think that TF would be a bit lacking without any religion at all.

Not so much those two being created by 'the one', or the idea that unicron can travel through the multiverse.

I like the Quints too though, and I'm looking forward to see how IDW will work those in to the story. I lean towards the IDW-verse as canon for me - the cartoon has way too much contradiction and isn't well thought out. It was just an 80s kids cartoon after all.

What's the contradiction in the cartoon? Quintessons mades TFs, TFs rebelled, Quints get thrown off Cybertron.

I think the vok created the allspark, and the allspark created Primus and Unicron. Primus used the Allspark to create the transformers, and the rest is history.

Sledge wrote:What's the contradiction in the cartoon? Quintessons mades TFs, TFs rebelled, Quints get thrown off Cybertron.

I mean in general. Like Megatron creating the Constructicons in Heavy Metal War, then them being turned into Decepticons by Megatron in Omega Supreme's flashback, and then them being present when Megatron was created in Five Faces of Darkness.

Or the fact that the Dinobots/Constructicons are just built in Season 1, but Vector Sigma is the only thing that can give transformers life in Season 2 (in the aerialbot/stunticons episodes), but then Starscream just needs personality chips to create the Combaticons etc.

What I mean is that the back story, mythology and ideas are one of the things that made the G1 cartoons great (plus the fact that it had giant transforming robots!).. but the ideas from episode to episode were contradictory... they didn't really form a coherent whole. Which is why I find it hard to favour the cartoon mythology over some of the other mythologies.

I still don't really see the contradictions, tbh. Megatron didn't create the Constructicons, just gave them new bodies. Yes, the Dinobots were created without Vector Sigma, but you need Vector Sigma if you want to create an intelligent, adult Transformer.

As for the Combaticons... the whole point of that was they were pre-existing TFs. Megatron had their brains removed and their bodies destroyed. Starscream put the brains in new bodies. No contradiction there.

Of course, the cartoon doesn't really have a mythology. There's none of the contradictory views that comic TFs held (Last Autobot or Ultimate Warrior?), just an explained history.

How bout this. The Quentessons created Primus who created the Allspark and the Matrix, that created the Transfromers race.

Unicron was created by an ape like creature called Primacron. http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Primacron Allthough his Wiki page allso claims he built the Dinobots but that was Wheeljack.

Fair point RE Combaticons, Sledge.

But there's nothing to indicate that Megatron built the Constructicons new bodies in HMW. It's pretty clear from Megatron's line "My Constructicons have returned... It was worth the time we spent building them in these caverns" that the writers of the episode were explaining their sudden appearance as being built, constructed if you like, by Megatron. Saying that he just meant that he built their new bodies is a fine way to cover up the holes in the cartoon, and make the continuity make more sense, but that's all it is... a cover up.

And didn't Grimlock just create the Technobots out of thin air and give them his intelligence? I don't recall him using Vector Sigma to give them life (but I'm a bit rusty on that episode and can't be bothered googling).

By the same measure, Megatron isn't saying "The Constructicons are totally new and didn't exist prior to us building them in these caves." Basically, if you want it to be a continuity error, it is. But you're choosing to put that interpretation on it.

As for the Technobots, Grimlock possessed mental capacities well beyond any Transformer scientist of the time. Consider that he built the Technobots' bodies by himself in a very short time, as opposed to the time taken for any other TF we see being built.

Sledge wrote:I still don't really see the contradictions, tbh. Megatron didn't create the Constructicons, just gave them new bodies. Yes, the Dinobots were created without Vector Sigma, but you need Vector Sigma if you want to create an intelligent, adult Transformer.

As for the Combaticons... the whole point of that was they were pre-existing TFs. Megatron had their brains removed and their bodies destroyed. Starscream put the brains in new bodies. No contradiction there.

Of course, the cartoon doesn't really have a mythology. There's none of the contradictory views that comic TFs held (Last Autobot or Ultimate Warrior?), just an explained history.

Why does all of that that sound familiar

Oilspill wrote:But there's nothing to indicate that Megatron built the Constructicons new bodies in HMW.

And there's nothing in the dialog that directly disputes the idea that Megatron "BUILT" them new bodies either.

Oilspill wrote: It's pretty clear from Megatron's line "My Constructicons have returned... It was worth the time we spent building them in these caverns" that the writers of the episode were explaining their sudden appearance as being built, constructed if you like, by Megatron.

The problem is that its not "PRETTY CLEAR" at all.

Had the line been.... "My Constructicons have returned... It was worth the time we spent "CREATING" them in these caverns".....then it would be "pretty clear" but the word "BUILDING" has a few different definitions and about the only reason we, as fans, walked away from HMW with the idea that they were newly build is because they were new characters to us.

Oilspill wrote: And didn't Grimlock just create the Technobots out of thin air and give them his intelligence? I don't recall him using Vector Sigma to give them life (but I'm a bit rusty on that episode and can't be bothered googling).

Grimlock not only had "Super Intelligence" in that episode but he also built the Technobots from parts that were inside of Unicrons head and may have used the internal workings of Unicron to get the job done.

While wrer on the topic of giving a TF life , keep in mind that Vector Sigma "PROGRAMS" Transformers for life.

So its fisable to assume that any TF intelligent enough may be able to create a "Program" for TF life.

Wheeljack was obviously able to "Program" TF life...even if it was intellectually limited.

Saber Prime wrote:Unicron was created by an ape like creature called Primacron. http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Primacron Allthough his Wiki page allso claims he built the Dinobots but that was Wheeljack.

Actually if you read that very carefully it "DOES NOT SAY" that Primicron built the Dinobots..

Read into it what you like, but it's "pretty clear" to me because that's how the english language works. If Megatron says he "built them" then it implies he built them in their entirety. If he was just building a part of them, like their bodies, then he would have specified that he built their bodies.

Anything else is just a retcon... which is fine, if that's how you want to interpret it, since it makes the whole thing make more sense.

Oilspill wrote:Read into it what you like,

I'm not reading anything into it other then what the definitions of the words used support.

You on the other hand are choosing to subscribe to only 1 definition of the words used.

Oilspill wrote: but it's "pretty clear" to me because that's how the english language works.

Actually its not how the English language works.Which is why its not pretty clear at all.The English language was set up in a way that cretin words had no clear cut definition and that each sentence would have to determined on the context of the conversation.

Oilspill wrote: If Megatron says he "built them" then it implies he built them in their entirety.

Have you looked up the definition of the word "Built"?????Or "Building"?????

It by no means "Solely implies" that the one "BUILDING" or the one who "BUILT" has done so in its entirety.

I can "BUILD" a plastic model but I did not "Build" it in its "ENTIRETY".

You, or a mechanic, can "BUILD" a car engine useing parts bought or salvaged but neither would be "BUILDING" in in its "ENTIRETY".

Oilspill wrote: If he was just building a part of them, like their bodies, then he would have specified that he built their bodies.

For that matter if he had "BUILT" them from scratch then he would have "specified" that he "CREATED" them.

Megatron was a braggart.......he had no problem pointing out his "CREATIONS".

Seems odd that he wouldnt have bragged about "CREATING" the Constructicons.

Oilspill wrote:Anything else is just a retcon... which is fine, if that's how you want to interpret it, since it makes the whole thing make more sense.

How is it a "RETCON" when none of the dialog is changed?????

Its not a "RETCON" because of the fact that nothing was ever "specified" about how and why they first appeared.

HMW left it ambiguous in the air.The Dialog does not point to just one answer because the words used have multiple definitions.

A Retcon would be saying that the Dinibots were created by someone other then Wheeljack and Ratchet because that would be changing a "KNOWN" fact.

But there's not "KNOWN" fact about how the Constructicons were "Created".

The word "BUILT" could have been used as to say new bodies were "Built" or it could have been used as a "METAPHOR".

Their are a few examples of TF's useing "METAPHORS" in relation to how they came into being.

The long and short of the issue is that there's no "CLEAR" cut answer.

It may very well be that the writter intended the use of the words "BUILT" to be taken as "Built entirely from scratch".But we are not talking about the writers intention nor can we.

And in the long run its not really relevant to the issue at hand since many changes are normally made from the time a episode is written till the time its completed.

What is relevant is the finished product, and in the episode "Heavy Metal War" there is no conclusive dialog that specified Megatron ""Built entirely from scratch".

So if you want to subscribe to only one definition of the word "BUILT" that is your choice but it's only an indication of you wanting to find fault with the series.

tl;dr

Dude, I don't know why you're arguing so much (except that you do this in many a thread), but I don't really care what you think.

This thread is about which creation myth everyone follows. I've stated mine, you've stated yours. Lets move along and not hijack the thread.

Oilspill wrote:tl;dr

I guess you cant refute the logic.

Oilspill wrote:Dude, I don't know why you're arguing so much (except that you do this in many a thread),

I'm not arguing at all.

I'm just making a point of a few things.

Oilspill wrote:but I don't really care what you think.

Thats rather rude of you, theres no reason to make this so personal...... but hey if thats the kind of person you are then H.M.B.

Oilspill wrote:This thread is about which creation myth everyone follows.

Yeah I figured that out from the title.

Oilspill wrote: I've stated mine, you've stated yours. Lets move along and not hijack the thread.

Thats fine by me.I made the point I wanted to already.

sto_vo_kor_2000, I like you and this is not a bash towards you, but I'm starting to notice a routine in the threads that you post in.

People are discussing topic

sto_vo_kor_2000 discusses his opinions on the topic

Other posters posts about the topic in a way to disagree with sto_vo_kor_2000's post

sto_vo_kor_2000 brings in facts that either support his opinion or, in this and some other cases, neutralizes the debate by showing that there is no clear answer

Other poster implies that sto_vo_kor_2000 is trying to derail the topic and start an argument and states for him to stop talking about it

I laugh at the inevitability of this routine

Topic gets back on track

End routine


My statement to Oilspill: This is a forum meant to discuss, question, and refute topics related to Transformers. If you wish to merely discuss your opinion and have noone discuss it with you, then I suggest blogging or some other silly thing like it. I, myself, have changed many of my TF beliefs through the conversation and presentation of new ideas on this site and I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 and myself who are so energetic about improving our and others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe.

Predaprince wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000, I like you and this is not a bash towards you, but I'm starting to notice a routine in the threads that you post in.

Thank you I like you as well and have enjoyed our conversations........and Dont worry you know I can take the criticism

Predaprince wrote:People are discussing topic

sto_vo_kor_2000 discusses his opinions on the topic

Other posters posts about the topic in a way to disagree with sto_vo_kor_2000's post

sto_vo_kor_2000 brings in facts that either support his opinion or, in this and some other cases, neutralizes the debate by showing that there is no clear answer

Other poster implies that sto_vo_kor_2000 is trying to derail the topic and start an argument and states for him to stop talking about it

I laugh at the inevitability of this routine

Topic gets back on track


End routine

So you've noticed it too........I never knew that so many cant handle the idea that they might be wrong or handle the thought of new ideas or takes on old ones.

And what I find the funniest is how they always try to twist things and make it seem like it was I that sparked the debate

Predaprince wrote:My statement to Oilspill: This is a forum meant to discuss, question, and refute topics related to Transformers. If you wish to merely discuss your opinion and have noone discuss it with you, then I suggest blogging or some other silly thing like it. I, myself, have changed many of my TF beliefs through the conversation and presentation of new ideas on this site and I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 and myself who are so energetic about improving our and others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe.

Dude I dont know how to thank you for the kind words.

This will become my new sig.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:Unicron was created by an ape like creature called Primacron. http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Primacron Allthough his Wiki page allso claims he built the Dinobots but that was Wheeljack.

Actually if you read that very carefully it "DOES NOT SAY" that Primicron built the Dinobots..

What do you call this, quoted from that same page.

Primacron's Assistant claims that they built some of the "primitive" Transformers (a group composed of Sky Lynx, Trypticon, the Dinobots, Predacons, Terrorcons, and the animal-form cassettes) way back then.

According to that, Primacron built all the animal based TFs.

Not really saying I trust what that page says, I know he couldn't have built the Dinobots because Wheeljack built them on Earth but we're not talking about what actully happened, just what it says on that page.

Oh and Happy New Year.