The Energon Pub

by **Yotsuyasan** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:59 pm

Rated X wrote:You bring up a very good point.

Ha ha, why is it I feel dirty when you agree with me on something in the context of a knock off discussion?

But seriously... I find Seibertron.com's anti-anything not officially licensed stance unsupportable and, since they themselves constantly break it, hypocritical. How often are the following front paged?

-Stories warning against knock-offs (and thus unintentionally promoting them)
-Press releases from retailers that, while selling official products, also contain promotions for tons of third party items as well. (And also many items not at all related to Transformers.)
-Reprolabels updates. (Don't get me wrong, I love Reprolabels! But official, they are not.)

For a website that claims to be all about only officially licensed products, that's a lot of non-official stuff that makes the front page.

If the "only officially licensed Transformers" ideal is so important to the powers that be here, any talk of Reprolabels should be off the front page and shunted off to the third party forum, and retailer press releases should be edited to only mention relevant products.

As for knock-offs, as I mentioned previously that is something of a double edged sword. Collectors of the legitimate products need to be aware of them, after all. But such write-ups could be more limited... Perhaps just mention the product exists, and if possible what some ways to tell the real from the knock off is. And put a bold disclaimer against the buying of such products. I'd even go so far as to say they should avoid linking such news articles to discussion threads in the forum, so as to avoid anything on the front page connecting directly to things that might say, "I'm buying one!" or, "You can get_one_here for $42.64!" If someone starts a discussion thread separately, fine. But don't have it connected to a front page news article.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:03 pm

Can they even make a news thread without a discussion thread? Maybe just locking it immediately would be a good idea.

I can see why they wouldn't want to censor their sponsors. Otherwise .... they wouldn't have any sponsors!

by **Yotsuyasan** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:09 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I can see why they wouldn't want to censor their sponsors. Otherwise .... they wouldn't have any sponsors!

Oh, I know it isn't going to happen. I'm just saying that by either not doing so, or by not selecting sponsors that only sell officially licensed Transformers products, it shows (in my view) a somewhat hypocritical view. It says to me, "Our website is only about officially licensed Transformers products... Unless you throw money at us! Then the website can be about whatever you want!"

I don't expect things to change, mind you. Although it would perhaps be more palatable if retailer press releases were presented in a way that made it more clear they were a sponsored post, and not disguised as a news item.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:13 pm

Their latest BBTS sponsor update also talks about the Walking Dead DVDs and Ion Man. 3rd party stuff, under the site's official view, can be lumped in with that without being labelled hypocritical, I think. Not really a big deal for me; I've learned lo love TFW for 3rd party news.

by **Rated X** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:17 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Rated X wrote:
Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Rated X wrote:You guys are just way too sensitive. What you guys consider "stolen" property I consider to be community property. Maybe back in the 80's I would have defended Hasbro and said KO's and 3rd parties were stealing Hasbro's property. But it's 2013 and G1 is 30 years old ! Lets copyright the wheel or the sundial while were at it ? I would be a little more sympathetic towards Hasbro if Bayformers or Rescue Bots were being KOed because those lines represent people that are actually on the Hasbro payroll. But Hasbro is still getting rich off of G1 and isn't giving G1's creators a god damn penny. So I say screw Hasbro, let the KO's roll !!!

You guys seem to show more loyalty to the copyright holders than to the actual fiction itself. Just because something that relates to Transformers isn't endorsed by Hasbro, that doesn't make it any less awesome. If I win Powerball next week and buy the Transformers brand from Hasbro, will you guys be as loyal to me just because I got a bunch of copyright papers in a vault ? Should I flaunt my 30 year old copyrights and act like I created G1 while it's real creators cant even put food on the table ? If a toy designer defects from Hasbro and starts a 3rd party company, do you guys consider him a traitor ? Where does this silly loyalty to one company end ? Im a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro fan. Let that be known. And the Transformers universe is big enough for everyone to add something to the fiction whether the stockholders likes it or not.

Firstly, NONE OF THIS relates to this KO. This KO is based off a recent toy, not a 30 year old one. The current MP line is driven by supply and demand like anything else. If you undercut Takara like this we may not get any new MPs. Which isn't really good for the fans or those creatives behind each MP either.

You paint a lot of people who disagree with you with a VERY broad brush. Just based on where I post here I think you know what I've been collecting so far. Hint hint: we're in the 3rd Party forum! My attachment to Hasbro/Takara is a lot like yours: to the characters and universe and not necessarily to the company that owns it. Bu that doesn't mean I'm going to give the middle finger tothe company that owns it either! If they make something I want, sure I'll buy it. I don't see why you give a 3rd party company credit for making a toy you like, but not Hasbro/Takara (and we're in a thread about Takara being screwed over, if there's a difference to you).

I also find it odd that you SAY you support toy designers, but are VERY willing to buy KOs. I mean, KO companies don't pay those designers at all. Meanwhile it's known that the guy who made G1 Starscream in the Diaclone days worked on MP Starscream. So he's still employed at Takara (or at least was at the time of it's development). So how would buying a KO of Starscream support him? You're not buying from the company that either has employed him or is still employing him. You're just assuming designers have been tossed aside, but with the guy behind Starscream we KNOW that's not true.

In theory Takara and Hasbro knows which of it's designs are successful based on sales. So buying a recent KO helps them ... how? "Screw you Hasbro/Takara" doesn't help the creators find work. If anything it gives the message that the toys they helped to make don't sell and that the adult collector's market isn't profitable to sell to.

Really, underneath it all you just seem to wan to get the cheapest version available. And that's fine. I get that and it's a valid point of view. But the anti-corperate pro-creative angle is nonsensical. You get that creatives are hired by these corporate giants, right? And that if the giant falls, so do all the creatives you say you support. By saying "screw you Takara" you're also saying "screw you" to all the designers it's employed to make the figures you like.

The MP line may be a recent line, but the characters it uses ARE 30 years old. I get you’re point. The corporate machine is needed to keep the toys coming. But if Hasbro ever falls, that doesn’t necessarily mean the Transformers brand will fall. Someone might bring it back, officially or unofficially. As long as there’s money to be made someone’s going to cash in. As long as there are hardcore G1 fans, there will be 3rd parties. And as long as the prices of some figures remain extremely high, there will be KO’s. Some original G1 designers are still on Hasbro’s payroll. Others are not. Some are probably dead. Some are probably going through hard times. If you look at some of the original Sunbow voice actors, they’re not receiving any royalties for being a major part of G1. Granted they’re not toy designers or artists, but they are a good example of G1 founding fathers that aren’t receiving royalties for life every time their respective character gets a new toy. I’m fairly confident the same thing goes for many former G1 toy designers and concept artists. All that’s left is the corporate machine and a piece of paper that’s says “we paid you back in the 80’s for your work no matter how much it’s worth today, so deal with it”. That’s the point I’m trying to make as why “IP infringement” is such a joke. The corporation that is crying foul hung many of their innovators out to dry a long time ago. Hasbro IP infringement is pure karma 30 years in the making. I’m sure those who saw their personal innovations make billions and only got a $1000 check back in 1986 to show for it laugh at Hasbro’s IP infringement claims. I wouldn’t blame them.

Hey, if you think MPs are overpriced and prefer the cheapest option that's fine. But you're NOT pro-creator here. By not buying a recent toy officially you're not supporting the guys who made it, directly or indirectly. It's very easy to say "I'm pro creator" when it involves words, but I notice you weren't too concerned with a creator's jobs when you first head about this KO. Your first thought was to your own pocketbook. Again, that's a legit point of view, but it's NOT pro-creator. You're a fan of the G1 universe and characters. But you're NOT pro-creator because you're NOT supporting creators by buying official products.

You're throwing a lot of hyperbole around - that Hasbro/Takara doesn't support it's creators ... how the hell would you know? Where's this story of a disenfranchised creator coming form? Because it sounds like something you just made up based on your own view of big business. But you know what? KO producers are also big business! You hate Hasbro for ripping off an imaginary creator in a made up story, but KO manufacturers are worse because they don't even hire creators at any time - they just copy their designs. Yet you wholeheartedly support them while hating on a company that actually employs them. You hate on one big business but favour another all while screwing over creators you claim loyalty to.

You like the TF characters and universe. You don't care who makes the toys based on them. You'll buy what's cheapest. You're about as pro creator for buying a KO as you are for downloading an MP3 for free instead of using iTunes. You might be a big fan of the song, but don't claim you support the artist. Being pro-creator involves more than being anti-corperate.

I have about just as much proof that Hasbro doesn’t pay royalties to all original G1 innovators as you have proof that they do. But given the current state of today’s economy combined with typical corporate greed, what would you expect? Show me some proof Hasbro still pays them monthly or yearly based on their contributions made in the 80’s? If it wasn’t for Transformer conventions, Stan Bush would be the most has been artist of the century. Hasbro isn’t cutting him a check, Funpub is. And Funpub pulls many these voice actors from the armpits of middle America and gives them their first Transformers related paycheck in decades. The Buster Jones story wasn’t very encouraging. He couldn’t even remember which character he played in Transformers and read the script as “The Doc”. That doesn’t give the impression of somebody that’s very relevant on the current Hasbro Transformers payroll. Just my opinion. Not everybody can be a Peter Cullen or a Wally Burr. I’m fairly confident the same hardships exist in the designer and concept artist world as well. Think differently if you like. It’s you’re right to have a personal opinion.

On my “pro-creator” claims, I can only say I base them on my personal opinion that Hasbro threw many G1 creators under the bus decades ago. Sure they signed a contract that they would not retain the rights to their creations. I’m not disputing that. But if you make billions off of my contributions while I’m struggling, I got an issue no matter what paper I signed 30 years ago. Maybe I wasn’t told the potential the brand would have at the time I signed that paper. Maybe I was duped and didn’t even realize it because I was just happy to get my foot in the door. With all this being said, how could I defend Hasbro if they lose a little profit over KO’s? It’s pure karma.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:35 pm

Rated X wrote: But if you make billions off of my contributions while I’m struggling, I got an issue no matter what paper I signed 30 years ago. Maybe I wasn’t told the potential the brand would have at the time I signed that paper. Maybe I was duped and didn’t even realize it because I was just happy to get my foot in the door. With all this being said, how could I defend Hasbro if they lose a little profit over KO’s? It’s pure karma.

Your practise of moral equivalency is laughable. you're just making stuff up and passing it off as truth! You only care about creators when it means you don't have to pay extra.

If you care about your pocketbook, then that's fine. But you don't have a moral high ground. You're not pro-creative. You don't give a **** about the creators behind MP Buzzsaw and Frenzy, for instance. You're only interested in championing the anonymous creators you feel must be getting a disservice after so long. And the ones who aren't? Screw 'em! You don't care about THOSE creators. You only care about the creators directly responsible for the toy you like. And if those creators still work at Takara? Screw 'em! Some others MUST be getting screwed.

News Credits: 767 · by **Dead Metal** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:36 pm

The sponsor updates can't be edited, they have to be posted as is otherwise Ryan looses the sponsoring. If they could be edited to only have the stuff of interest to us, I would have cut out everything non-TF related, like GI Joe, Marvel, DC, etc...

KOs are reported as warnings in order to warn the community of the existence of new replica KOs.

Reprolabels, however, should not be reported, but Ryan likes them and does not see them as being the same as KOs and 3rd Party, since they "provide a service by reproducing stickers".

And don't go trowing around the multiple persons thing here, this is Ryan's site and he gets to call the shots, it's his, not "theirs". The news staff have to stick to the rules set up by Ryan, since it's his site.

by **Yotsuyasan** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:55 pm

Dead Metal wrote:The sponsor updates can't be edited, they have to be posted as is otherwise Ryan looses the sponsoring. If they could be edited to only have the stuff of interest to us, I would have cut out everything non-TF related, like GI Joe, Marvel, DC, etc...

I didn't expect anything to change with that. I was just pointing out, I suppose, the fact that this website once made a decision to stick to an ideal of only being about official, licensed Transformers products, and yet accepts money from sponsors that don't follow the same ideal. Which would be a lot more acceptable to me if it was presented more clearly as such. The way they are presented now, these sponsor ads look more like news stories, and could be taken by someone less savvy as a Seibertron.com generated news report on what items are now currently available from various retailers.

Dead Metal wrote:KOs are reported as warnings in order to warn the community of the existence of new replica KOs.

I did state repeatedly that I know this is a necessary thing yet a double edged sword. I just wish more steps were taken to blunt the edge that unintentionally promotes the knock offs these articles are seeking to warn against.

Dead Metal wrote:Reprolabels, however, should not be reported, but Ryan likes them and does not see them as being the same as KOs and 3rd Party, since they "provide a service by reproducing stickers".

Don't get me wrong, I love me some Reprolabels! But you agreeing with me that they should not be reported shows Ryan's hypocrisy here. He wants to make an exception here, because they "provide a service by reproducing stickers"? What's to stop someone from saying knock offs don't provide a similar service? It was even brought up in this thread, back when it was still pretending to be on topic. The Lazerbeak/Buzzsaw mold has issues with the fins breaking. Could someone not argue that knock offs provide a valuable service by giving you duplicate parts with which to repair a broken legitimate figure? And if so, how is that different from reproduced stickers made to replace worn out or missing official stickers?

I don't agree that knock offs should be viewed in such a light. Just showing how his arguments supporting Reprolabels could easily be twisted to support physical knock offs.

by **Rated X** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:07 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Rated X wrote: But if you make billions off of my contributions while I’m struggling, I got an issue no matter what paper I signed 30 years ago. Maybe I wasn’t told the potential the brand would have at the time I signed that paper. Maybe I was duped and didn’t even realize it because I was just happy to get my foot in the door. With all this being said, how could I defend Hasbro if they lose a little profit over KO’s? It’s pure karma.

Your practise of moral equivalency is laughable. you're just making stuff up and passing it off as truth! You only care about creators when it means you don't have to pay extra.

If you care about your pocketbook, then that's fine. But you don't have a moral high ground. You're not pro-creative. You don't give a **** about the creators behind MP Buzzsaw and Frenzy, for instance. You're only interested in championing the anonymous creators you feel must be getting a disservice after so long. And the ones who aren't? Screw 'em! You don't care about THOSE creators. You only care about the creators directly responsible for the toy you like. And if those creators still work at Takara? Screw 'em! Some others MUST be getting screwed.

Im not exactly the most moral person in the world. But in my opinion todays Hasbro is just piggybacking off of G1 inovators and not even tossing them a bone for building the foundation that made them rich. If it wasnt for the 80's Team Hasbro/Takara/Sunbow, there would be no MP line or homage lines like TF Prime or Animated. On the MP line creators, they took someone elses creation and just made it better. Dont 3rd parties already do that ? Wheres there glorification for acomplishing what Has/Tak couldnt or wouldnt do ? I guess for some, it all boils down to who currently owns those damn 30 year old copyrights, rather than who made their existance possible. You see a Hasbro legal document. I see toilet paper.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:08 pm

With staff being so active it's easy to forget it's just Ryan calling the shots.

News Credits: 1 · by **njb902** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:23 pm

Yotsuyasan wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:The sponsor updates can't be edited, they have to be posted as is otherwise Ryan looses the sponsoring. If they could be edited to only have the stuff of interest to us, I would have cut out everything non-TF related, like GI Joe, Marvel, DC, etc...

I didn't expect anything to change with that. I was just pointing out, I suppose, the fact that this website once made a decision to stick to an ideal of only being about official, licensed Transformers products, and yet accepts money from sponsors that don't follow the same ideal. Which would be a lot more acceptable to me if it was presented more clearly as such. The way they are presented now, these sponsor ads look more like news stories, and could be taken by someone less savvy as a Seibertron.com generated news report on what items are now currently available from various retailers.

Dead Metal wrote:KOs are reported as warnings in order to warn the community of the existence of new replica KOs.

I did state repeatedly that I know this is a necessary thing yet a double edged sword. I just wish more steps were taken to blunt the edge that unintentionally promotes the knock offs these articles are seeking to warn against.

Dead Metal wrote:Reprolabels, however, should not be reported, but Ryan likes them and does not see them as being the same as KOs and 3rd Party, since they "provide a service by reproducing stickers".

Don't get me wrong, I love me some Reprolabels! But you agreeing with me that they should not be reported shows Ryan's hypocrisy here. He wants to make an exception here, because they "provide a service by reproducing stickers"? What's to stop someone from saying knock offs don't provide a similar service? It was even brought up in this thread, back when it was still pretending to be on topic. The Lazerbeak/Buzzsaw mold has issues with the fins breaking. Could someone not argue that knock offs provide a valuable service by giving you duplicate parts with which to repair a broken legitimate figure? And if so, how is that different from reproduced stickers made to replace worn out or missing official stickers?

I don't agree that knock offs should be viewed in such a light. Just showing how his arguments supporting Reprolabels could easily be twisted to support physical knock offs.

You're an insightful person Yotsuyasan. We all have ours failings, all I know is that I want a healthy hasbro/takara so I can continue to enjoy my plastic crack and media.

by **Yotsuyasan** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:27 pm

njb902 wrote:all I know is that I want a healthy hasbro/takara so I can continue to enjoy my plastic crack and media.

Hear, hear. :APPLAUSE:

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:30 pm

Rated X wrote:Im not exactly the most moral person in the world. But in my opinion todays Hasbro is just piggybacking off of G1 inovators and not even tossing them a bone for building the foundation that made them rich. If it wasnt for the 80's Team Hasbro/Takara/Sunbow, there would be no MP line or homage lines like TF Prime or Animated. On the MP line creators, they took someone elses creation and just made it better. Dont 3rd parties already do that ? Wheres there glorification for acomplishing what Has/Tak couldnt or wouldnt do ? I guess for some, it all boils down to who currently owns those damn 30 year old copyrights, rather than who made their existance possible. You see a Hasbro legal document. I see toilet paper.

Yeah, so you basically don't respect the creators of MP Frenzy because that respect is due to the creator of G1 Fenzy. Even though that guy might still be employed at Takara and may even have had a hand in making MP Frenzy. He might have had a very healthy career after making G1 Feenzy at Takara.

You're not the most moral person in the world. You don't respect creators. You just don't. Argue the merits of buying at reasonable prices if you want to, but you're just making up fiction, passing it off as fact, and pretending you're right. If you respected creators you'd contribute to their livelihoods by buying legit. And if you loved the creators of G1 so much you'd actually know who they are, track their careers, and buy the legit products they're associated with.

But if you're just in it for your own savings (which is fine), then be honest about it. This "I love creators" stuff is just bullshit. I'd respect bullfaced consumerism a lot more over fake activism.

News Credits: 402 · by **Mkall** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:41 pm

Rated X wrote:Im not exactly the most moral person in the world. But in my opinion todays Hasbro is just piggybacking off of G1 inovators and not even tossing them a bone for building the foundation that made them rich. If it wasnt for the 80's Team Hasbro/Takara/Sunbow, there would be no MP line or homage lines like TF Prime or Animated. On the MP line creators, they took someone elses creation and just made it better. Dont 3rd parties already do that ? Wheres there glorification for acomplishing what Has/Tak couldnt or wouldnt do ? I guess for some, it all boils down to who currently owns those damn 30 year old copyrights, rather than who made their existance possible. You see a Hasbro legal document. I see toilet paper.

Just so you know; the original creator of TFs, Hideaki Yoke, is, to the best of our knowledge, still Takara's lead designer.

Most of your argument is now moot.

Good day

News Credits: 767 · by **Dead Metal** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:53 pm

Would you guys please stop quoting Rated X, please, pretty please?
I don't want to read his drivel, that's why I put him on my ignore list, but that does f**k all if you keep quoting him.

Yotsuyasan wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:The sponsor updates can't be edited, they have to be posted as is otherwise Ryan looses the sponsoring. If they could be edited to only have the stuff of interest to us, I would have cut out everything non-TF related, like GI Joe, Marvel, DC, etc...

I didn't expect anything to change with that. I was just pointing out, I suppose, the fact that this website once made a decision to stick to an ideal of only being about official, licensed Transformers products, and yet accepts money from sponsors that don't follow the same ideal. Which would be a lot more acceptable to me if it was presented more clearly as such. The way they are presented now, these sponsor ads look more like news stories, and could be taken by someone less savvy as a Seibertron.com generated news report on what items are now currently available from various retailers.

Dead Metal wrote:KOs are reported as warnings in order to warn the community of the existence of new replica KOs.

I did state repeatedly that I know this is a necessary thing yet a double edged sword. I just wish more steps were taken to blunt the edge that unintentionally promotes the knock offs these articles are seeking to warn against.

Dead Metal wrote:Reprolabels, however, should not be reported, but Ryan likes them and does not see them as being the same as KOs and 3rd Party, since they "provide a service by reproducing stickers".

Don't get me wrong, I love me some Reprolabels! But you agreeing with me that they should not be reported shows Ryan's hypocrisy here. He wants to make an exception here, because they "provide a service by reproducing stickers"? What's to stop someone from saying knock offs don't provide a similar service? It was even brought up in this thread, back when it was still pretending to be on topic. The Lazerbeak/Buzzsaw mold has issues with the fins breaking. Could someone not argue that knock offs provide a valuable service by giving you duplicate parts with which to repair a broken legitimate figure? And if so, how is that different from reproduced stickers made to replace worn out or missing official stickers?

I don't agree that knock offs should be viewed in such a light. Just showing how his arguments supporting Reprolabels could easily be twisted to support physical knock offs.

I don't have to justify Ryan's decisions, they are his. I have argued with him on those in the past. In fact the ban on 3rd party news while picking out reprolables(who in my opinion are to stickers what iGear is to toys as in they do originals stickers while also KOing copyrighted material) as a favorite was part of why I resigned from staff.

It was his decision and I respect that, I may not like it, but I respect it.

And he can't choose his sponsors or refuse one based on whether or not they share his views, if he did he wouldn't earn any money with this site, and this site is his business and bread and butter.

by **Yotsuyasan** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:02 pm

Dead Metal wrote:Would you guys please stop quoting Rated X, please, pretty please?

That's why, sadly, ignore functions on forums are pretty useless. (Or I may have done the same to Rated X myself.) Unless everyone ignores someone, you'll either end up reading what the ignored person anyway when quoted in someone else's post, or if they're not quoted, you'll not be able to follow a conversation when you don't have the full context.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:06 pm

Could be worse, they could be absolute asshats and end up as Moderators and you can't ignore them.

Suckers. :twisted:

News Credits: 118 · by **megatronus** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:19 pm

Mkall wrote:
Rated X wrote:Im not exactly the most moral person in the world. But in my opinion todays Hasbro is just piggybacking off of G1 inovators and not even tossing them a bone for building the foundation that made them rich. If it wasnt for the 80's Team Hasbro/Takara/Sunbow, there would be no MP line or homage lines like TF Prime or Animated. On the MP line creators, they took someone elses creation and just made it better. Dont 3rd parties already do that ? Wheres there glorification for acomplishing what Has/Tak couldnt or wouldnt do ? I guess for some, it all boils down to who currently owns those damn 30 year old copyrights, rather than who made their existance possible. You see a Hasbro legal document. I see toilet paper.

Just so you know; the original creator of TFs, Hideaki Yoke, is, to the best of our knowledge, still Takara's lead designer.

Most of your argument is now moot.

Good day

^This. So much of this. Thanks Mkall.

Even if Hideaki Yoke weren't still at Takara, it's somewhat disingenuous to claim that only the individuals involved in creating the backstories or original designs for certain characters deserve respect from the collector community.

Guess who funded the creation of that IP? Set up distribution channels, marketing, etc.? All the people in the organization, and on a meta-level, the corporate entity itself. The reason HasTak owns the copyright, IP, etc. is because they took the risk to fund that IP's development. No one could have known that Transformers would becomes the brand that it is today. No one. HasTak took on substantial risk contracting the individual creators of the IP to create what they did, and much of the profit the brand has brought it since has probably been used to offset the losses from failed brands (this is speculation based on my experience with "house of brands" type companies). Whether or not some of the individual creators of the IP receive royalties from HasTak is a separate, open question, but until it can be proven one way or the other, there's no use disparaging HasTak over it - put up or shut up.

At the end of the day, I'll never buy a KO Masterpiece because I love the line too much. I recognize that if I don't buy the official product, then there might not be money to develop new figures from which the KOs can be ripped. Most people who buy KO MPs are increasing the risk of the discontinuation of Masterpiece TFs. For me, that's the bottom line.

News Credits: 402 · by **Mkall** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:59 pm

megatronus wrote:
Mkall wrote:Just so you know; the original creator of TFs, Hideaki Yoke, is, to the best of our knowledge, still Takara's lead designer.

Most of your argument is now moot.

Good day

^This. So much of this. Thanks Mkall.

by **Rated X** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:03 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Rated X wrote:Im not exactly the most moral person in the world. But in my opinion todays Hasbro is just piggybacking off of G1 inovators and not even tossing them a bone for building the foundation that made them rich. If it wasnt for the 80's Team Hasbro/Takara/Sunbow, there would be no MP line or homage lines like TF Prime or Animated. On the MP line creators, they took someone elses creation and just made it better. Dont 3rd parties already do that ? Wheres there glorification for acomplishing what Has/Tak couldnt or wouldnt do ? I guess for some, it all boils down to who currently owns those damn 30 year old copyrights, rather than who made their existance possible. You see a Hasbro legal document. I see toilet paper.

Yeah, so you basically don't respect the creators of MP Frenzy because that respect is due to the creator of G1 Fenzy. Even though that guy might still be employed at Takara and may even have had a hand in making MP Frenzy. He might have had a very healthy career after making G1 Feenzy at Takara.

You're not the most moral person in the world. You don't respect creators. You just don't. Argue the merits of buying at reasonable prices if you want to, but you're just making up fiction, passing it off as fact, and pretending you're right. If you respected creators you'd contribute to their livelihoods by buying legit. And if you loved the creators of G1 so much you'd actually know who they are, track their careers, and buy the legit products they're associated with.

But if you're just in it for your own savings (which is fine), then be honest about it. This "I love creators" stuff is just bullshit. I'd respect bullfaced consumerism a lot more over fake activism.

You keep trying to speak for me by saying who I do and dont respect regardless what I say. Sorry, youre not inside my mind. Only I know who I respect and dont. You dont own the discretion to speak for me based on your opinion of my statements. If you disagree with my logic and find it insulting, fine. Youre entitled youre opinion. But dont tell me who I dont respect. Im not trying to pick a fight with you either. Im just being honest. We have different moral standards so any debate regarding IP infringement will put us on opposing sides. I just dont find KO's unethical because Has/Tak is rolling in money. And by choice I decided to bring up the posibility that Hasbro might not be taking care of all the people that contributed to making the Transformers brand what it is today. I think it's good food for thought for advocates of Hasbro's IP rights.

News Credits: 1 · by **njb902** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:13 pm

So you can make up crap as you please about us, but if anyone dares to give their take on you it's just blasphemous. Always the victim X, always the victim.

by **Rated X** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:17 pm

Mkall wrote:
megatronus wrote:
Mkall wrote:Just so you know; the original creator of TFs, Hideaki Yoke, is, to the best of our knowledge, still Takara's lead designer.

Most of your argument is now moot.

Good day

^This. So much of this. Thanks Mkall.

Im not limiting the arguement to Takara's head designer. Im talking about anyone on his team during the G1 era. Im also referring to anyone that was part of the Sunbow Productions G1 team as they played a major role in creating G1 as we know it. Oh, let me not forget anyone from Marvel who helped create the original G1 comic. And anyone from Bandai or whatever companies created the molds for Predaking, the Deluxe Insecticons, and Shockwave because they were not part of the Diaclone line. If you can without a shadow of doubt prove that every one of these G1 founding fathers is still collecting royalties from Hasbro, then you will have dispelled my arguement. Werent you with me when we saw Buster Jones speak ? It sure didnt look like Hasbro took care of him all these years.

News Credits: 1 · by **njb902** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:22 pm

Rated X wrote:
Mkall wrote:
megatronus wrote:
Mkall wrote:Just so you know; the original creator of TFs, Hideaki Yoke, is, to the best of our knowledge, still Takara's lead designer.

Most of your argument is now moot.

Good day

^This. So much of this. Thanks Mkall.

Im not limiting the arguement to Takara's head designer. Im talking about anyone on his team during the G1 era. Im also referring to anyone that was part of the Sunbow Productions G1 team as they played a major role in creating G1 as we know it. Oh, let me not forget anyone from Marvel who helped create the original G1 comic. And anyone from Bandai or whatever companies created the molds for Predaking, the Deluxe Insecticons, and Shockwave because they were not part of the Diaclone line. If you can without a shadow of doubt prove that every one of these G1 founding fathers is still collecting royalties from Hasbro, then you will have dispelled my arguement. Werent you with me when we saw Buster Jones speak ? It sure didnt look like Hasbro took care of him all these years.

What facts? All I see are insinuations.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:34 pm

Rated X wrote:
Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Rated X wrote:Im not exactly the most moral person in the world. But in my opinion todays Hasbro is just piggybacking off of G1 inovators and not even tossing them a bone for building the foundation that made them rich. If it wasnt for the 80's Team Hasbro/Takara/Sunbow, there would be no MP line or homage lines like TF Prime or Animated. On the MP line creators, they took someone elses creation and just made it better. Dont 3rd parties already do that ? Wheres there glorification for acomplishing what Has/Tak couldnt or wouldnt do ? I guess for some, it all boils down to who currently owns those damn 30 year old copyrights, rather than who made their existance possible. You see a Hasbro legal document. I see toilet paper.

Yeah, so you basically don't respect the creators of MP Frenzy because that respect is due to the creator of G1 Fenzy. Even though that guy might still be employed at Takara and may even have had a hand in making MP Frenzy. He might have had a very healthy career after making G1 Feenzy at Takara.

You're not the most moral person in the world. You don't respect creators. You just don't. Argue the merits of buying at reasonable prices if you want to, but you're just making up fiction, passing it off as fact, and pretending you're right. If you respected creators you'd contribute to their livelihoods by buying legit. And if you loved the creators of G1 so much you'd actually know who they are, track their careers, and buy the legit products they're associated with.

But if you're just in it for your own savings (which is fine), then be honest about it. This "I love creators" stuff is just bullshit. I'd respect bullfaced consumerism a lot more over fake activism.

You keep trying to speak for me by saying who I do and dont respect regardless what I say. Sorry, youre not inside my mind. Only I know who I respect and dont. You dont own the discretion to speak for me based on your opinion of my statements. If you disagree with my logic and find it insulting, fine. Youre entitled youre opinion. But dont tell me who I dont respect. Im not trying to pick a fight with you either. Im just being honest. We have different moral standards so any debate regarding IP infringement will put us on opposing sides. I just dont find KO's unethical because Has/Tak is rolling in money. And by choice I decided to bring up the posibility that Hasbro might not be taking care of all the people that contributed to making the Transformers brand what it is today. I think it's good food for thought for advocates of Hasbro's IP rights.

I don't have to be inside your head to know what you respect - you've made it quite clear here.

- You don't respect Hasbro or Takara. You don't feel they deserve it because the corporate level didn't do the on-hand work in their own creation.
- You don't respect current creators because you see their work as derivative.
- You claim to respect the original creators - but you don't know who they are! And even if you did, you see their old works as "community property" now, so this respect costs you nothing.
- And, as for G1 creators who do still work at Takara, you don't respect them; you still buy KOs of modern toys with no qualms.

So, no. You don't respect creators. You don't value contributions they make to the franchise you like. You want the lowest price you can get PERIOD. And that'd be fine with me, but you're hiding behind populist moral outrage at a corporation.

Bullshit.

You can't back it up so you make up stories that original creators were/are being slighted. Clearly a strawman argument since we're talking about toy creators not about cartoons or comics.

I just dont find KO's unethical because Has/Tak is rolling in money.

This is the most honest you've been both with me and with yourself in this entire thread. You don't care about Hasbro/Takara/anyone who works for them because they have money. They don't deserve your respect because they have money. You feel that ripping off creators who have money is okay. Done. I fully understand your perspective.

However, KO companies also have money. And, unlike Hasbro or Takara, they have contributed nothing to the lives of the creators behind G1 at any point in time. So, yeah.

News Credits: 118 · by **megatronus** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:40 pm

Rated X wrote:If you can without a shadow of doubt prove that every one of these G1 founding fathers is still collecting royalties from Hasbro, then you will have dispelled my argument.

Wait... if your argument, and more than that, your very behavior, is being affected by this question, isn't the onus on you to prove that they aren't receiving payments?