The Energon Pub

SentinelA wrote:People who are down on KOs are starting to piss me off! I'd be so glad to get this Shockwave KO especially considering that I once paid $85 for a used Shockwave that can fully stand up. And how else are we going to get a true Bluestreak. I say if Takara to Dee DeeDee to put this out more power to the KOs. Speaking of which, I have not seen the true blue BlueStreak KO on Ebay. Does Ebay have some law about KOs or are retailers getting to uppidy to sell them?

KOs are garbage. The whole Metroplex issue should have put this argument to bed.

Counterpunch wrote:

SentinelA wrote:People who are down on KOs are starting to piss me off! I'd be so glad to get this Shockwave KO especially considering that I once paid $85 for a used Shockwave that can fully stand up. And how else are we going to get a true Bluestreak. I say if Takara to Dee DeeDee to put this out more power to the KOs. Speaking of which, I have not seen the true blue BlueStreak KO on Ebay. Does Ebay have some law about KOs or are retailers getting to uppidy to sell them?

KOs are garbage. The whole Metroplex issue should have put this argument to bed.

For those who don't remember...KO Metroplexes started to be packaged in legit (or legit looking) Encore boxes and actually got sold by major on-line stores as real because their foreign suppliers were duped.

SentinelA wrote:People who are down on KOs are starting to piss me off!

Well excuse me for taking pride in my collection and wanting genuine articles in it.

Burn wrote:

SentinelA wrote:People who are down on KOs are starting to piss me off!

Well excuse me for taking pride in my collection and wanting genuine articles in it.

Lo, the truth - it hath been spoken!

I don't just buy the Transformer for the toy - I buy them because they are old. I'm pretty sure that people who collect china plates ect wouldn't like the idea of getting reproduction ones either. There is "something" intangible to getting a vintage item, that from experience, reissues\kos don't fulfill.

This is going to make getting my G1 Shockwave when I see one harder now - short of buying one with a damaged box and wear on the toy, that is. I just really hope they keep the gun barrel purple and don't colour it grey. More importantly, I hope some of the more unscrupulous traders don't remove the item from the box, ditch the purple barrel and batter the box a bit.

Amelie wrote:

Burn wrote:

SentinelA wrote:People who are down on KOs are starting to piss me off!

Well excuse me for taking pride in my collection and wanting genuine articles in it.

Lo, the truth - it hath been spoken!

I don't just buy the Transformer for the toy - I buy them because they are old. I'm pretty sure that people who collect china plates ect wouldn't like the idea of getting reproduction ones either. There is "something" intangible to getting a vintage item, that from experience, reissues\kos don't fulfill.

This is going to make getting my G1 Shockwave when I see one harder now - short of buying one with a damaged box and wear on the toy, that is. I just really hope they keep the gun barrel purple and don't colour it grey. More importantly, I hope some of the more unscrupulous traders don't remove the item from the box, ditch the purple barrel and batter the box a bit.

Bingo!

Amelie wrote:Lo, the truth - it hath been spoken!

I don't just buy the Transformer for the toy - I buy them because they are old. I'm pretty sure that people who collect china plates ect wouldn't like the idea of getting reproduction ones either. There is "something" intangible to getting a vintage item, that from experience, reissues\kos don't fulfill.

This is going to make getting my G1 Shockwave when I see one harder now - short of buying one with a damaged box and wear on the toy, that is. I just really hope they keep the gun barrel purple and don't colour it grey. More importantly, I hope some of the more unscrupulous traders don't remove the item from the box, ditch the purple barrel and batter the box a bit.[/color]

The point is: not everyone can afford spending so much on a vintage item and we simply want the figures in our collections, not for the value but for the figures themselves. Thus, we prefer reissues. Of course we all prefer original reissues, but when one isn't available than a KO will be preferrable to a very expensive vintage. It would be great if everyone could afford all those expensive items, but we can't. And this is just a hobby, we want to have fun from it, it's not to be so serious to most people collecting.

That is why I mostly prefer reissues to old vintage figures, because I want them new and in good shape, and to not spend huge amounts of money that I can't and I simply want the figure. I always prefer official reissues though, I don't even have many KOs.

Still, of course no KO should be able to be sold as original to deceive anyone.

And when these KO's are sold around the same price as an original?

Burn wrote:And when these KO's are sold around the same price as an original?

Well, simply don't buy it... it might still have interest depending on the original one's state. If the brand new KO costs the same as the vintage one loose and in bad shape, and if it is not too expensive, the KO might still be of interest.

If you're saying a very expensive KO for about $100 than people probably won't buy it. I know some people like to intentionally collect KOs, but I think most people buy a KO because the original in good shape is very expensive (some originals even in bad shape are expensive) like Shockwave. If the Shockwave KO goes for $65 like the Reflector KO I say it's a good price because you pay much less than an original in the same state. And if you don't collect for the value but only for the fun of having that figure in your collection, it's a good option, it's just a hobby.

Of course this is much better if we talk about official reissues. E.g. Jazz, which has been reissued both by Hasbro and Takara. I prefer a brand new reissue than a loose vintage even if it is for the same price.

At least the reissues, weather they are official or KOs, usually cost much less than vintage figures in the same state (brand new, MISB). And that's the whole point why it is worth it for those like me that don't collect for the value.

But then there's the whole ethical thing.

These KO manufacturers these days are now INTENTIONALLY going after the collector market and violating numerous copyright's to do so. They don't own the characters.

If people want to support a nameless company that sells shoddy products, go right ahead.
If people want to lower the value of their collection with unauthorised reproductions, go right ahead.

Personally, I want nothing but the geniune article. I've waited patiently MANY times for rare figures to pop up in a good condition at a great price, and that makes my collecting habit all the more enjoyable.

I've even picked up junkers and restored them, giving me more reason to be proud of my collection, knowing that i've put time, effort, and patience into it.

But hey, that's just me, everyone has their own habits, whatever floats people's boats.

Burn wrote:But then there's the whole ethical thing.

This is probably the crux of the arguement against KOs for me. Even if there was a figure that I felt I wanted enough for a reissue because of the originals price, I wouldn't go down the KO route simply so I don't give my monies to companies that have screwed other collectors in the past.

As Burn said - Restoring is fun! I recently managed to get a G1 Mirge (no weapons) for £1.50, just because the chrome and feet were missing on one (50p) and the other had a broken waist (£1). It now sits looking pretty happy on my shelf.

Not all KOs are evil - Reprolabels are an asset to the fandom.

Patience is virtue.

capellamusic wrote:The point is: not everyone can afford spending so much on a vintage item and we simply want the figures in our collections, not for the value but for the figures themselves. Thus, we prefer reissues.

Here's the thing (for me), because some people can not afford original toys, they purchase KOs as substitutes as it is in their best interests to own something related to that toy/character.

Normally I wouldn't care how other people spend their money, but this kind of stuff has the chance to affect me and more importantly my best interests (which include not having to figure out if I'm buring a genuine article and not dealing with some frankensteined toy with old and new mixed parts).

If people can argue that their wallets are the reason they turn to buying KOs, my sanity can argue that I shouldn't have to risk it trying to figure out of a toy is legit or not.

Then there are the legal and ethical issues which pale in comparison to my best interests.

The point is, I'm looking for a G1 Wheeljack right now and I have to wade through the freshly cut KO garbage Wheeljacks that are indeed being passed off as original.

If I have to go to China to straighten this all out, you can best be there will be Big Trouble in Big China...starring CP, coming Summer 09'.

I think you all are forgetting the issue with Shockwave. Hasbro, nor Tomy own the rights to the original mold. It was licensed, so we know that Shockwave/Lazerwave won't be reissued until they pony up the dough for the mold(as they did with Omega Supreme). So this makes collectors lives a tad easier. When this starts popping up all over eBay and such, you know what to look for. Multiple auctions for MISB Shockwave should definitely throw up a red flag for those who don't like or collect KOs.

Ok, this will be big but my last post about this. I'm going to try to write the best I can, english is not my first language.

First, for those claiming the legal and ethical part of this, although those who said it are right, I ask the following: do you use commercial software ilegally (e.g. downloading a game you didn't pay for)? Do you listen to music ilegally (e.g. ilegally downloaded music mp3 files)? Do you see videos ilegally (e.g. ilegally downloaded videos, DVDs)? Do you read books ilegally (e.g. ilegally downloaded books in pdf files)? I have never met anyone who is 100% 'clean', and I know people from police and court, and they do it too. And yes, this is stealing, and much worse than buying a G1 KO for a toy that isn't currently produced anymore and their original companies aren't losing money from that (I'm just talking about KOs for vintage figures). Hasbro and Takara (or any other) aren't losing money from this because there are no royalties, that is why it isn't as bad as the other things I asked. Listening to music ilegally or watching videos ilegally is much worse because there are royalties, and when one does that, the people who created that music or video are losing money, they are being robbed, constantly. And for software, with no support, even if it is a great piece of software the company may reach bankrupcy. For books, if they don't sell, the authors also get a low income. Since some people raise the legal and ethical issue I think it's appropriate to question the question (?) if you know what I mean. I'm not 'clean' and like I've said, I never met one who is. But I try to do my best as long as I can afford it, and I'm a musician and know well about these problems.

Some people also seem to include the official reissues (which I also talked about previously) also as a bad thing just like the high quality KOs. And these are legal. If you want a vintage, buy a vintage. But let me have my brand new reissue as I prefer it. I'm sure we all wanted brand new G1 vintage figures, but only few can afford them. There more important things to spend money, like food. By having reissues everyone gets a better opportunity to have the figures they like. I'm talking about the official reissues in this paragraph.

Someone also said something about restoring old G1 figures. You know what? I also do that, I'm currently in the middle of restoring a G1 Motormaster a friend of mine had from his childhood and gave to me because he know I like Transformers. But while some people may find it fun and have time to do it, others don't but would like to have the figure. And I know what is meant about restoring and be proud of it, I feel it too, but it takes a lot of time which I don't have and it doesn't stay as perfect as a brand new one and not everyone has the skills or patience to do it. And I actually have very few KOs, actually only the constructicons (and Reflector on its way to me), the cheap ones, which I've disassembled, fixed all the pieces, painted them better, added correct stickers and rub signs and they ended up looking great, and like when someone restores a figures feels proud, this too is great to see after all that hard work.

As an example, I also collect Mashin Eiyuden Wataru figures, and for those who know, these figures are much more rare than Transformers, and very expensive. Fortunatly most of the first Wataru figures have been reissued by Takara, and I was able to get all the reissues. But from Wataru 2 and 3 there are no official reissues... and fortunatly there are a few figures that have KO reissues, which are easy to tell apart because they are identified and their quality is much lower, but fixable. These figures are model kits with articulation and gimmicks. The KOs have to be fixed to be correctly assembled, and it's much harder than assembling an original vintage one. But in the end it's great to have the figure after all the work put to it. And as an example, there's a figure called Ryuseimaru which a simple MIB one unassembled may cost about $300 which I could never pay for, while the KO cost me about $25. And having it makes me happy. Would I prefer the original? Of course. But can I afford it? No way... So, the KO is an oportunity to at least have it for fun. And restoring vintage figures from Wataru is hard because there's no 'reprolabels' for them and they're not very easy to disassemble once assembled, to clean, etc.

But we must understand that each person is a single case. And remember that the toys, weather for children or adults, are to be fun. That's their main purpose, not for making an investment. And each person has his own way of fun with them. I understand MISB collectors, I understand vintage collectors, I understand reissue collectors and I understand the kids that play with them. Let's all just have fun with our beloved toys, and let everyone be able to have the figures they like, weather they are vintage, reissued or KOs. If a Shockwave KO makes me happy, just let me be happy with it, I can't buy a vintage MISB and starve for months and sell my car...

I also understand the problem of sellers trying to pass KOs as originals, that's why I said there should always be differences so that we can identify them. Like in everything, we have to be careful before buying. But I do agree with that of course. But don't be so fundamentalist about it.

If someone doesn't agree, there's nothing I can do, but I end my part with this post. I've already written too much... If I forgot something important, well... sorry.

capellamusic wrote:If a Shockwave KO makes me happy, just let me be happy with it, I can't buy a vintage MISB and starve for months and sell my car...

Ah, but see, there is the crux...a Shockwave KO makes me unhappy and is problematic for the vintage/reissue marketplace.

While you will support this "industry" by buying KOs, I will work to make sure it has poor footing by not buying them, decrying them, and reporting them to Hasbro at every opportunity.

Counterpunch wrote:Ah, but see, there is the crux...a Shockwave KO makes me unhappy and is problematic for the vintage/reissue marketplace.

While you will support this "industry" by buying KOs, I will work to make sure it has poor footing by not buying them, decrying them, and reporting them to Hasbro at every opportunity.

Right, don't forget about doing the same for ilegal music, videos, software, books, etc.

capellamusic wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Ah, but see, there is the crux...a Shockwave KO makes me unhappy and is problematic for the vintage/reissue marketplace.

While you will support this "industry" by buying KOs, I will work to make sure it has poor footing by not buying them, decrying them, and reporting them to Hasbro at every opportunity.

Right, don't forget about doing the same for ilegal music, videos, software, books, etc.

I don't have any interest in doing that though. I know when I buy a CD or DVD that it is a legitimate copy.

Also, in referencing the issues with illegal downloading and simply by referring to it as 'illegal' you are acknowledging that KOs are not a legal and appropriate means of obtaining vintage toys.

Counterpunch wrote:I don't have any interest in doing that though. I know when I buy a CD or DVD that it is a legitimate copy.

Also, in referencing the issues with illegal downloading and simply by referring to it as 'illegal' you are acknowledging that KOs are not a legal and appropriate means of obtaining vintage toys.

I never said it was legal, I said that the companies aren't losing money when it's for vintage figures no longer produced. And I compared it with worse and more important cases where the owners actually lose money every day. Every time you ilegally download a CD people are being robbed. When I buy a G1 KO Shockwave at least no one is being robbed in that transaction (well, you could in a certain way consider that I am being robbed).

Anyway, whatever is said next, I'm out.

I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with buying a knock-off of an old toy that the original manufacturer has no interest in making anymore. It's not like Hasbro is losing sales if I buy a Shockwave KO.

Counterpunch wrote:If I have to go to China to straighten this all out, you can best be there will be Big Trouble in Big China...starring CP, coming Summer 09'.

It had better have a Kurt Russell cameo!

D-340 wrote:I think you all are forgetting the issue with Shockwave. Hasbro, nor Tomy own the rights to the original mold.

They didn't own the rights for Omega Supreme or Sky Lynx either but they managed to obtain them some how.

GuyIncognito wrote:I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with buying a knock-off of an old toy that the original manufacturer has no interest in making anymore. It's not like Hasbro is losing sales if I buy a Shockwave KO.

But how much did TakaraTomy lose in sales over Metroplex?

Do you see them releasing the Constructicons? No, because the market is flooded with poor KO's of them.

Don't say they're not losing money, because KO's DO affect the market.

Didn't it turn out that Tomy had acquired the company that owned rights to Sky Lynx and Omega, then they bought Takara as well?

capellamusic wrote:Ok, this will be big but my last post about this. I'm going to try to write the best I can, english is not my first language.

First, for those claiming the legal and ethical part of this, although those who said it are right, I ask the following: do you use commercial software ilegally (e.g. downloading a game you didn't pay for)? Do you listen to music ilegally (e.g. ilegally downloaded music mp3 files)? Do you see videos ilegally (e.g. ilegally downloaded videos, DVDs)? Do you read books ilegally (e.g. ilegally downloaded books in pdf files)? I have never met anyone who is 100% 'clean', and I know people from police and court, and they do it too.

I would like to raise my hand. *Not done it* There are more people who don't do those things than you expect.

capellamusic wrote:And yes, this is stealing, and much worse than buying a G1 KO for a toy that isn't currently produced anymore and their original companies aren't losing money from that (I'm just talking about KOs for vintage figures). Hasbro and Takara (or any other) aren't losing money from this because there are no royalties, that is why it isn't as bad as the other things I asked. Listening to music ilegally or watching videos ilegally is much worse because there are royalties, and when one does that, the people who created that music or video are losing money, they are being robbed, constantly. And for software, with no support, even if it is a great piece of software the company may reach bankrupcy. For books, if they don't sell, the authors also get a low income. Since some people raise the legal and ethical issue I think it's appropriate to question the question (?) if you know what I mean. I'm not 'clean' and like I've said, I never met one who is. But I try to do my best as long as I can afford it, and I'm a musician and know well about these problems.

You don't think Hasbro/Takara or retailers lose money from KO's? Guess again.
1. When consumers get duped into buying a KO for the real thing and it falls apart - they'll blame Hasbro/Takara. One more customer lost.
2. When fans can't tell the difference between an authentic G1 Wheeljack and KO Wheeljack, they get frustrated and give up on collecting. (More money lost for Hasbro/Takara).
3. When TFSource.com and other retailers got fooled into purchasing/reselling KO Metroplex from bogus Chinese distributers, they lost money because they had to reimburse the customers and eat the loss. Or, the customer had to eat the cost and got stuck holding a KO Metroplex. Again, a lose for Hasbro/Takara. And you can bet that those online retailers will be more stringent and start restricting the merchandise they carry. Another lose for Hasbro/Takara.

**KOs make everyone weary of Transformers, which means that people start doubting the authenticity, which means less money for Hasbro/Takara and people's value of their collection goes down. It doesn't matter if the KO is of a current figure or a vintage, everyone will suffer. You might think this has no baring on you and your collection, but it does. When Hasbro/Takara loses sales, it means that they will produce less figures in the future.

capellamusic wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:Ah, but see, there is the crux...a Shockwave KO makes me unhappy and is problematic for the vintage/reissue marketplace.

While you will support this "industry" by buying KOs, I will work to make sure it has poor footing by not buying them, decrying them, and reporting them to Hasbro at every opportunity.

Right, don't forget about doing the same for ilegal music, videos, software, books, etc.

I don't download anything illegal. Trying to justify it is wrong. Stealing anything makes you a thief.

The previous poster who observed that it's 'newfags versus oldfags' may have put it rather crudely but did have a point that this discussion seems to be forum members who have been here a long time against those who haven't.

I think the legal argument is slightly irrelevant, since for most people they choose when to obey the law and when not to, downloading music is a good example of that, but there are plenty of others; how about when you find a $10 note on the ground? How about when a parcel of toys from abroad arrives at your house and customs don't charge you tax on it?

Metroplex is a clear example of a KO that people don't want, but the reason they don't want it is because Takara reissued the figure at the same time and the KO producers had no other way of getting rid of the figures other than the pass them off as official. It seems to me that as long a figure isn't reissued at the same time a KO is produced then there doesn't seem to be much deception. A MISB version of a figure released 20 years ago for less than $100? Sounds too good to be true.............

Personally I don't want G1 KOs in my collection, but I gladly paid $20 for a KO WST Skywarp and Thundercracker rather than the $100-200 odd the official releases go for on ebay. I also bought the WST Dirge and Ramjet from the same source. I think it would be rather hypercritical of me to condemn G1 KOs but say that WST KOs are okay.

Seems to me it always comes down to people making good, reasoned arguments against knockoffs vs. people bawling "BUT I WANT IT!!!" and throwing their rattles out of the pram. I did start a thread on this topic ages ago, but I can't find it now. Might have got eaten by the internet during a site upgrade.