The Energon Pub

Well I won't argue with you on multiple types of alts having the same tactic.

On the other hand (going back to the M-61) a jet that isn't configured for ground support is going to have a realy difficult time hitting ground targets.

Having different types of strafe is fine. Will an A-10 Thunderbolt II be able to go air to air with an F-22? No. Will it rip up ground targets? Yeah.

Tammuz wrote:anti-air is just strafe that only hits air alts for ground alts you don't gain any advantage by having it unless the rest of your attacks only hit ground alts, but considering weapon attacks can hit everyone, and the rest of the tactics(except the other nerfed strafe variants) can hit everyone it doesn't actually have an advantage.

Well shouldn't abilities with limited targets be stronger than an ability with no restrictions?

Also I can see Air based bots having advantages to other attacks, its hard to Ram a jet with a jeep.
I realize they are in bot mode pretty much all the time, but it seems TFs with flying alts tend to fly in robot mode.

These are tactics, not weapons. raising an anti-air stat ups your skill/ability to fire on a airborn fast moving target (Useing appropriate weapons of course)
Dog fights wile they may be using the same/simular weapons as ground strafing or anti-air shooting, would be an intirely diffrent skill (at least I would think so, im not a fighter pilot and I dont know much about combat.

true, but considering that this isn't just any jet, but a transformer, i don't think it's too much to ask, espicially since most of them are going to be configured for fighting TFs rather than jets anyway.

Tammuz wrote:true, but considering that this isn't just any jet, but a transformer, i don't think it's too much to ask, espicially since most of them are going to be configured for fighting TFs rather than jets anyway.

Maby though even a A-10 TF isn't going to be much of a dogfighter for simple lack of manuverability while an F-22 TF wont have much of a chance of hitting ground targets with anything other laser guided missles.

Perhaps the addition of another tactic to "aid targeting" or perhaps rank increasing the effectiness/success of other TF's tactic attacks would be the best solution.

perhaps we should convince them to add a system where when you change to your alt mode you stay in your alt mode untill you change back.

It would be so transformer-ish.

So when you are a plane, you are plane, when you are a killer robot, you are a killer robot.

And with the new bot modes it would be visual change as well.
But thats probaly too much to ask for.

Maybe instead of busting strafe into all sorts of more specific attack types have strafe start out very specific at the lowest levels and then as you upgrade strafe expands to include more targets and attack types?

Like a jet fighter starts out with just air to air but once you hit strafe 5 it includes ground targets too. Meh.

lkavadas wrote:Maybe instead of busting strafe into all sorts of more specific attack types have strafe start out very specific at the lowest levels and then as you upgrade strafe expands to include more targets and attack types?

Like a jet fighter starts out with just air to air but once you hit strafe 5 it includes ground targets too. Meh.

I like this. I don't like that there's SO MANY new tactics, though. I figured the old ones were fine as is, and although it's a nice idea, narrowing them down can't be all that good practically. [/opinion]

Now I know how Michael Bay felt when everyone said how bad the movie was before anyone even saw it.

A few points:

1. Blame me, not Mkall.

2. Fireblast can be called ANYTHING. The reason Mkall has it listed as fireblast is because that is what it is called in my personal database and I copied and pasted him the info.

3. Why are the new tactics so alt-mode specific? Because tactics are for your ALT MODES...They always have been.
I don't care if your robot can tap dance, he won't be doing it when he is transformed into a jet.

4. This is a rock, paper scissors system. 4 tactics may look similar to strafe but they each ARE different. Any alt mode should be able to counter or confront any other alt mode under the new system with it's given tactics and the right configuration.

5. Sorry if you don't like the new system but you are going to have to give it a try. If things don't work out in reality like they do on paper then we will make changes.

6. I would like to thank Mkall for all his hard work!! He has put a ton of time organizing the alt modes, tactics and alt classes and has even worked on some of the images.

As for those of you on the Planning Team - You have known about these tactics for the better part of 2 months now. This shouldn't come as any surprise to any of you. If there are concerns about balance and you are in charge of the balancing aspects of the game then you need to take those concerns to the Planning forum where I can discuss them openly with you. You should all know by now that I am very open to making changes to the game if there are any valid concerns as I have already done so several times throughout the process.

I will give the new system a try before saying "Four strafe is worse than one" If I guess right, the powering stat and/or the damage output may be different, but this is for experimenting.

BTW, what about action masters? Will any of the rock-paper-scissor strafes work against them?

Omega Sentinel wrote:5. Sorry if you don't like the new system but you are going to have to give it a try. If things don't work out in reality like they do on paper then we will make changes.

Didn't we feel the same about the minicons initially?

As I previously said (well, meant really) I don't know the pros and cons of the new tactic attacks - granted I don't like the sound of it but you can't live your life on initial decisions like that

Besides OS you know what we're like, we bitch about anything we don't really know about yet, we freak out when it arrives then we spend ages playing with our shiny new toys!

A brief aside:
New Tactic Idea (For forum dwellers only)
Gestalt Slap - "Supercollider transforms into a fish and slaps n00b for suggesting gestalts!"

Supercollider wrote:Besides OS you know what we're like, we bitch about anything we don't really know about yet, we freak out when it arrives then we spend ages playing with our shiny new toys!

Yes and when you are having fun then I've done my job. I don't have any hidden agendas here. I want this game to be fun just as much as all of you do.

Supercollider wrote:A brief aside:
New Tactic Idea (For forum dwellers only)
Gestalt Slap - "Supercollider transforms into a fish and slaps n00b for suggesting gestalts!"

I definitely want this one!

-edit-

Unwarranted post.

I was looking over the list for the tactics for Decepticon alts and thought some of them could be better. Below are suggested changes for the alts I thought needed a change and could think of alternatives. Keep in mind, I've based these on the current format for tactics in the game (*insert attacker’s name* transforms into *insert alt* and *insert tactic* *insert target’s name*) and was of the thought "What are they limited to in that mode."

Sea Based
Speedboat
Current: Avoid/Catch/Shell
No problems with Avoid and Shell, it’s just I see Catch in literal terms; the attacker is reaching for the target. I think “Stealth” might be a better option; for example, the task of the PT boats in WWII was to slip in, attack a target, and slip out before anyone knew they were there.
Suggested: Avoid/Stealth/Shell

Sea Animal
Current: Bite/Avoid/Slash
Bite and Avoid I have no problem with; however, “slash” is a bite of an issue, especially since most sea animals don’t have appendages that can cut anything (a crab claw is designed to crush). “Catch” can be used in place of Slash as many sea animals, esp. predators, do grab prey. Stealth is another option, as sea creatures can be considered much like a missile or attack submarine; sneaking just under the surface.
Suggested: Bite/Avoid/Catch or Stealth

Targetmaster Ship
Current: Targetmaster/Avoid/Shell
Not much of a change, just I think a ship would have an easier time shelling than avoiding anything.
Suggested: Targetmaster/Shell/Avoid

Land Based
Battle Tank
Current: Shell/Ram/Absorb
The order of this is all I would change, especially since it’s my opinion that a tank is more likely to absorb incoming fire than it is to ram a target. Not suggesting they don’t ram things, it’s that they don’t usually do so (they usually run over anything in their way).
Suggested: Shell/Absorb/Ram

Repair Tank
Current: Ram/Repair/Shell
See my explanation for Battle Tank
Suggested: Shell/Repair/Ram

Small Animal
Current: Avoid/Catch/Charge
Don’t have a problem with the first two, especially when we’re talking small predatory animals, but charging is not a trait that anyone would associate with a rabbit. “Slash” might be a better option.
Suggested: Avoid/Catch/Slash

Medium Animal
Current: None
A new class that would encompass animals that are too big to be classified as a Small Animal, but too small to be considered a Large Animal. This would include beasts like deer, wolves, cougars, etc. These animals do lash out, can bite, and can either avoid or charge (in the case of a deer).
Suggested: Slash/Bite/Avoid or Charge

Large Animal
Current: Slash/Charge/Bite
I see this more befitting to animals like elephants and rhinos, to name two animals. They don’t usually slash or bite, preferring to charge or ram their antagonist. The real trouble is that a predator like a bear could easily be placed here as well so bite is an option, though my first instinct would be to go with Absorb.
Suggested: Charge/Ram/Absorb or Bite

Dinosaur/Mega Fauna
Current: Bite/Charge/Absorb
This alt class might either need to be reclassified or dissolved. Most of us think of creatures like T-Rex or Apatosaurus when talking about dinos, but the truth is, most of them were considerably smaller. A good majority could easily fit into the Small/Medium/and Large Animal classes (how is a Velociraptor, which is the size of a turkey, going to absorb hits?), leaving this class rather devoid of alts. Only problem would be the sauropods, some of which were absolutely massive, which might require their own separate class. For the Sauropods and other “mega fauna,” I see them absorbing a lot of damage and *possibly* charging their attackers (albeit in slow motion), but I can’t really see them ramming or biting anyone. I’m stumped for an alternative on this one.
Suggested: Absorb/Charge/?

Air Based
Airplane
Current: Dogfight/Strafe/Avoid
To me, an airplane represents a passenger plane, cargo jet, or bomber, none of which dogfight with other aircraft. Bombers do “strafe” targets on a bombing run, and none of these aircraft are known for any great level of agility (I could be wrong, though). Stealth would be a good replacement for Dogfight, especially since the first aircraft to employ this tech were technically bombers.
Suggested: Strafe/Stealth/Avoid

Fighter
Current: Strafe/Avoid/Catch
To me, the term “Fighter Aircraft” evokes images of aircraft like the Red Baron’s Fokker tri-plane, the P-51 Mustang, or the F-16 Falcon. I see no problem with Avoid and Strafe, but as I mentioned before, “catch” gives me the impression that the attacker is actually grabbing the target, something fighters certainly can’t do. They do, however, dogfight with other fighters, so I suggest that be the replacement.
Suggested: Dogfight/Avoid/Strafe

Interceptor
Current: Dogfight/Avoid/Catch
An interesting alt class, I have to say, though a few combat airplanes, like the Su-27 “Flanker,” are classified this way. Although they are designed to “catch” bombers, in the strict sense of the word, they really don’t grab things. They do have to dogfight with escort fighters, though. Stealth could be used in place of Catch to make them “special” compared to regular fighters.
Suggested: Dogfight/Avoid/Stealth

Helicopter
Current: Dogfight/Strafe/Drop
This one had me wondering what the thought process behind this was. Helicopters will strafe ground targets (in the case of attack helicopters, it’s what they were build for), but in the strict definition of “drop,” helicopters do no swoop down like eagles, pick up an object, and then let them plummet, Vortex’s Marvel bio not withstanding. In fact, I don’t ever remember Vortex ever employing that tactic in either the cartoon or the comic, nor any other helicopter-based character since G1. Helicopters also do not “dogfight,” in the strict, combat definition; as I recall, they’re usually employed against *ground* targets. Attack choppers do have turreted based weaponry, so Shell might be a good replacement; and all helicopters are highly agile aircraft, so Avoid would be a good stand in, too. Another alternative would be Stealth; attack helicopters often hide behind cover, pop up to attack and drop back down afterwards.
Suggested: Avoid/Strafe/Shell

Small Air Animal
Current: Avoid/Dogfight/Drop
The current setup seems okay; since I have seen small birds sparring with each other in the air. “Catch” would be another option aside from Dogfight; the peregrine falcon does grab its food in mid-air.
Suggested: Avoid/Catch (?)/Drop

Large Air Animal
Current: Drop/Dogfight/Avoid
As with Small Air Animal, the current setup is okay, as would be replacing Dogfight with Catch (bald eagles catch fish in their talons).
Suggested: Drop/Catch (?)/Avoid

Targetmaster Jet
Current: Headmaster/Avoid/Strafe
Change in name, mostly, unless "Targetmaster Jet" is a mistake itself.
Suggested: Targetmaster/Avoid/Strafe

Again, these are merely suggestions. Some other notes, Shell = Fireblast; Fireblast reminds me of a brand of furnace. I was also talking with a few others, and a few suggested alternative names for "Catch" based on my description for Fighters and Interceptors; "Chase," "Intercept," and "Pursue." I'm also aware that this is a fantasy game based on the various Transformers cartoon and comic series that have appeared over the years. It's only that some of these tactics were contrary to what I had seen in these series or I felt were totally unrealistic.

nice

Nice work Thunderscream, i like the whole Catch = Intercept thing. Also Fireblast = Barrage in my mind....

But thats a whole other kettle of fish

You make some excellent arguments TS, and for what its worth, I agree that the dinosaurs should be divvied up into the other animal classes, with a "Giant Animal" class used to catch sauropods and other random titanic animals that come up.

Problem is, I don't know how many players will be dissappointed if the mission text doesn't say "Grimlock transforms into a Dinosaur and..."

And of course, you look at instances like T-Rex and Elephant - two animals that are roughly the same size (large animals) but would have different attacks - and you run into a whole other kettle of fish. You think maybe you should have "Small/Medium/Large/Giant Predator" as classes and well, things just spiral out of control from there.

Caelus wrote:You make some excellent arguments TS, and for what its worth, I agree that the dinosaurs should be divvied up into the other animal classes, with a "Giant Animal" class used to catch sauropods and other random titanic animals that come up.

I'm fairly sure the small dinosaurs may end up in the "Small Animal" class. Like I said, you don't see Velociraptor or Coelophysis doing much in the way of "absorbing" anything.

Problem is, I don't know how many players will be dissappointed if the mission text doesn't say "Grimlock transforms into a Dinosaur and..."

There's one problem.

And of course, you look at instances like T-Rex and Elephant - two animals that are roughly the same size (large animals) but would have different attacks - and you run into a whole other kettle of fish. You think maybe you should have "Small/Medium/Large/Giant Predator" as classes and well, things just spiral out of control from there.

And there's the other problem I couldn't resolve to my own satisfaction. TBH, I don't see "Dinosaur" being retired as an alt class; too many problems.