The Energon Pub

Mkall wrote:

NOS wrote:Yeah, I can see where using standard measurements would be a challenging task for Has/Tak to undertake . . .

Are you serious, Mkall? I'm not trying to start anything, but Devastator looks like he has phocomelia and had his head shrunk in the Amazon. I suspect they aren't putting in as much effort as you're giving them credit for . . . especially when 3rds are still having to fix the figures Has/Tak is pushing out.

Not at all. I'm saying that simplicity doesn't always equal bad. And that Hasbro's goal at a cohesive line is a pretty good one. I'm OK with HasTak's Superion and Defensor (although Menasor's another story). I probģably would be ok with them with their unaltered forms, however I will be getting the upgrade kits for them.

I am saying that over 1.5 hours taken to transform/assemble MakeToys Computron vs 20 mins to transform/assemble HasTak's Defensor seriously makes me wonder if I can support 3rd party over-engineered combiners anymore.

Only MT and FP are making the complex combiners , Warbo UT and TFC hit the nail on the head with awsome robots and alt modes and fun transformations .

Well, I for one is diggin' the MT aesthetics. Total G1 accuracy isn't exactly my reason to buy them, I like my combiners complex and crazy (as long as they remain stable and solid when combined!).

NOS wrote:

shajaki wrote:

NOS wrote:Fun like Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers Neighborhood.

So, you feel CW is for infants?

Has/Tak managed to take a fun concept and make it lukewarm. Most of what they've shown is bland and boring. I don't know, maybe it's a sign of old age or perhaps I'm just spoiled by 3rds. Regardless, the more I see of CW, the less interested I am. Maketoys give us sleek and imaginative figures which I am generally excited about transforming, posing, and displaying. Meanwhile Has/Tak keeps giving us figures which look like chunks of plastic with a "step 1: flip this tab, step 2: unpeg limbs, step 3: enjoy figure" simplicity.

I find Combiner Wars super fun. 30 second transformations? All over it. Simplicity is not the same as bad, and for many, the simplicity we're seeing makes the toys dynamic, and forces you to reckon with their versatility. I haven't this much fun with toys, official or otherwise, in a very, very long time.


Guardia looks good, but also looks like Fansproject Menasor 2.0 - no thanks. I don't have the time.

@Mkall: What about proportions and stability? Sure, Has/Tak Superion is a decent piece if slightly lanky, but Menasor and Defensor? They both look kinda bloated and while I can't necessarily vouch for stability I'm under the impression they don't hold so well against a subtle bump or shake before tipping over, yes? I also feel Maketoys is visually more appealing. They just look more sleek and well thought out where some of what Has/Tak pushes out feels rushed, half-assed, or like they gave up part way on the design.

@megatronus: Aren't you being a bit generous in using words like "dynamic" and "versatile"? Sure, some of the figures are -good-, but they never really reached the peak of dynamic for me. I can understand if you prefer figures which aren't too complicated, but if that's the case there are still better options like TFC or UT. I'm not particularly fond of those 3rds, but I find it hard to deny their figures as being dynamic or versatile. Has/tak though? Their definition of "dynamic" or "versatile" translates into how they can merge two characters into one mold. All so they might do future repaints and subtle retools while sacrificing quality design and unique characteristics.

NOS wrote:@Mkall: What about proportions and stability? Sure, Has/Tak Superion is a decent piece if slightly lanky, but Menasor and Defensor? They both look kinda bloated and while I can't necessarily vouch for stability I'm under the impression they don't hold so well against a subtle bump or shake before tipping over, yes? I also feel Maketoys is visually more appealing. They just look more sleek and well thought out where some of what Has/Tak pushes out feels rushed, half-assed, or like they gave up part way on the design.

@megatronus: Aren't you being a bit generous in using words like "dynamic" and "versatile"? Sure, some of the figures are -good-, but they never really reached the peak of dynamic for me. I can understand if you prefer figures which aren't too complicated, but if that's the case there are still better options like TFC or UT. I'm not particularly fond of those 3rds, but I find it hard to deny their figures as being dynamic or versatile. Has/tak though? Their definition of "dynamic" or "versatile" translates into how they can merge two characters into one mold. All so they might do future repaints and subtle retools while sacrificing quality design and unique characteristics.

Yo NOS...you do have hasbro figures in your collection right ? I cant speak for the guys above, but Im getting a bit tired of FP and MT not even trying to match hasbros aesthetics. While I still buy the function x line, im tired of all these sharp edges and lines that stick out like a sore thumb among hasbro figures. While im an avid supporter of all 3rd party products, sometimes I feel they forget why we embraced their figures in the first place: to fill gaps. In some cases I feel some 3rd party figures leave just as big a "gap" in a G1 cartoon themed shelf as as not having the character at all. Perfect examples are FP Mindwipe, FP Swoops dino mode, and Maketoys afterburners robot mode.

Rated X wrote:While im an avid supporter of all 3rd party products, sometimes I feel they forget why we embraced their figures in the first place: to fill gaps.

Very well said. Though my example woulda been MK Mania King with his scale that fits nowhere.

Isn't he about a Voyager? That would be in proper scale, no?

shajaki wrote:

Rated X wrote:While im an avid supporter of all 3rd party products, sometimes I feel they forget why we embraced their figures in the first place: to fill gaps.

Very well said. Though my example woulda been MK Mania King with his scale that fits nowhere.

Technically CHUG galvatron scales best with CHUG Cyclonus and scoruge. But I always make an exception for faction commanders. I like them to be voyager scale by default because of their rank. But yeah mania king is off with aesthetics. But I fear we will never get an official CHUG scale galvatron that turns into a proper cannon.

shajaki wrote:

Rated X wrote:While im an avid supporter of all 3rd party products, sometimes I feel they forget why we embraced their figures in the first place: to fill gaps.

Very well said. Though my example woulda been MK Mania King with his scale that fits nowhere.

MK is def a good classics galvy(or at least for me!!!)

I like this gestalt mode the best out of all present options, I'll go CW for the bot modes and team pose but will have MT Guardia right behind them.....in front of his shins

NOS wrote:@megatronus: Aren't you being a bit generous in using words like "dynamic" and "versatile"? Sure, some of the figures are -good-, but they never really reached the peak of dynamic for me. I can understand if you prefer figures which aren't too complicated, but if that's the case there are still better options like TFC or UT. I'm not particularly fond of those 3rds, but I find it hard to deny their figures as being dynamic or versatile. Has/tak though? Their definition of "dynamic" or "versatile" translates into how they can merge two characters into one mold. All so they might do future repaints and subtle retools while sacrificing quality design and unique characteristics.

I don't think I'm being too generous. But that's just for me.

Something objectively 'complex' can still be intuitive, and thus subjectively deemed 'simple'. See, I don't have an inherent aversion to complexity, but if something insists on being complex, it also needs to be intuitive so the experience is seamless. Hercules and Feral Rex both pull that off well to different degrees. But insofar as being seamless, Combiner Wars still wins in my opinion - and that's largely the appeal where versatility and dynamism are concerned.

When I say Combiner Wars figures are versatile and dynamic BECAUSE of their simplicity, it has to do with their playability. I'd rather keep definitions loose, but for purposes of this discussion, I've been using versatility and dynamism to collectively refer to the inherent variety of the individual robots as well as how those individual pieces interact with other CW figures. Remolds and redecos have very little to do with this (which is where I think we're talking past each other a bit), but if you had to apply those terms to that aspect of it, I would say the fact that HasTak could pull off such comprehensive, convincing retools using these molds is indicative of the figures' dynamism and versatility on a very fundamental design level.

The ease with which I can perform the conversions, switch limbs, and otherwise get lost in the toys is awesome. Dynamism isn't necessarily attached to being able to pull off awesome poses, which these Combiner Wars figures can also do, or the actual designs, which I like a lot, but rather the playability. That's where I'm coming from, and from my experience, FP and MT haven't considered that crucial aspect in their Combiners at all.

@Rated X: I do have several Has/Taks in my collection and I do see where you're coming from as far as mismatched aesthetics, but I feel they're miniscule. Granted some 3rds do better than others in getting closer to the mark, but that seems par for the course since they are different entities producing the figures.

@megatronus: I suppose it falls under what is most important for a collector then. While I do appreciate playability I also find that concept to be lower on the scale than say visual appeal and complex transformations. I love my display pieces and MT and FP have won me over with their designs. Compare MT First Aid to Has/Tak First Aid and I would like to believe it's easy to understand how a person would have a deep wanting for something . . . more. Additionally when I see Has/Tak First Aid I find myself seeing Offroad, Ironhide, Ratchet, and possibly even Swindle which is depressing for me as all these characters are so much more than a color palate swap.

I can accept an appreciation for simpler figures, but I also feel something that is too simple comes off as dull and bland. There are a great many figures that Has/Tak has pulled off that are so much more than a tab flip and unpeg. I have that feeling of lackluster when I see CW gestalts with retro design flaws such as CW Constructicons having those huge elbow gaps or in Scrappers case . . . no elbow bend at all. It's just so . . . sloppy. That also affects the playability for me as posing becomes extremely limited when a figure can't even bend their arms . . .

On a final note, I can't really say I agree with the CW having decent posing . . . at least not when compared to 3rd gestalts. Sure, the CWs are better than many of Has/Taks predecessors, but we're still seeing some significant flaws like those silly hands and feet, limited bending, bowl-legged posing, etc. I've seen far more flexibility with MT and FP gestalts which has also been a huge selling point for me. I don't slight you for having a preference for Has/Tak figures if it's a matter of playability. I can certainly see Has/Tak figures withstanding the test of time better than most 3rds, but other than that I truly feel Has/Tak falls short on every other area.

NOS wrote:Additionally when I see Has/Tak First Aid I find myself seeing Offroad, Ironhide, Ratchet, and possibly even Swindle which is depressing for me as all these characters are so much more than a color palate swap.

Couldnt the same thing be said for FP Breakdown and Wildrider ?

MMC Tantrum and Headstrong ?

MMC Rampage and Felisaber ?

TFC Air Raid/Skydive and Fireflight/Slingshot ?

FP Warcry and Flameblast ?

And that's just combiners....don't get me started on non combiner 3rd party retools.


Third parties have taken Hasbro's concepts of re-tooling and re-shelling and embraced its full potential. Don't give them too much credit for every character getting an original mold.

Rated X wrote:

NOS wrote:Additionally when I see Has/Tak First Aid I find myself seeing Offroad, Ironhide, Ratchet, and possibly even Swindle which is depressing for me as all these characters are so much more than a color palate swap.

Couldnt the same thing be said for FP Breakdown and Wildrider ?
MMC Tantrum and Headstrong ?
MMC Rampage and Felisaber ?
TFC Air Raid/Skydive and Fireflight/Slingshot ?
FP Warcry and Flameblast ?
And that's just combiners....don't get me started on non combiner 3rd party retools.

Third parties have taken Hasbro's concepts of re-tooling and re-shelling and embraced its full potential. Don't give them too much credit for every character getting an original mold.

So, you're okay with your CW Sunstreaker, Jazz, Ironhide, Mirage, and Optimus Prime all being direct repaints of the Stunticons? You're going to be okay with Vortex being a palate swap of Blades and Alpha Bravo? Brawl a repaint of Rook? Hotspot to Onslaught? Silverbolt to Cyclonus?

I'm in no way bashing on repaints in general, but all the examples I just mentioned are overkill whereas all the figures you mentioned are natural solutions to the figures in general. Not sloppy attempts to milk a cow dry.

NOS wrote:

Rated X wrote:

NOS wrote:Additionally when I see Has/Tak First Aid I find myself seeing Offroad, Ironhide, Ratchet, and possibly even Swindle which is depressing for me as all these characters are so much more than a color palate swap.

Couldnt the same thing be said for FP Breakdown and Wildrider ?
MMC Tantrum and Headstrong ?
MMC Rampage and Felisaber ?
TFC Air Raid/Skydive and Fireflight/Slingshot ?
FP Warcry and Flameblast ?
And that's just combiners....don't get me started on non combiner 3rd party retools.

Third parties have taken Hasbro's concepts of re-tooling and re-shelling and embraced its full potential. Don't give them too much credit for every character getting an original mold.

So, you're okay with your CW Sunstreaker, Jazz, Ironhide, Mirage, and Optimus Prime all being direct repaints of the Stunticons? You're going to be okay with Vortex being a palate swap of Blades and Alpha Bravo? Brawl a repaint of Rook? Hotspot to Onslaught? Silverbolt to Cyclonus?

I'm in no way bashing on repaints in general, but all the examples I just mentioned are overkill whereas all the figures you mentioned are natural solutions to the figures in general. Not sloppy attempts to milk a cow dry.

I could care less about the CW Autobot retools. I have the superior Classics versions of Sunstreaker, Prowl, Ironhide, and Mirage. I did buy CW Prime, but I have no intention of using him as a combiner. He is simply another rendition of Prime on one of my many CHUG Autobot shelves. Every one has a different Prime.

I admit Cyclonus was a lame retool. I have him strictly as a novelty and keep him in jet mode. I might consider creating Galvatronus from all the rejects if Hasbro makes a new character for the Technobots. My Cyclonus is classics Cyclonus who scales well with Scourge.

Considering the similar robot aesthetics in the cartoon and the vintage toys, Im ok with Vortex and Blades having the same body. I dont count Alpha Bravo. He was just one big joke.

I see the potential of retooling Hotspot into Onslaught. I just hope somehow they find a way to give the truck cab a hood instead of the pannel window on hotspot's cab. We have no confirmation that Rook will be Brawl. The mold looks nothing like Brawl in either the cartoon or on the vintage toy. Rook doesnt have the signature tank chest Brawl has. (like G2 Megatron) Rook also has wheels instead of treads that become part of his chest in robot mode. Rook also has pointless holes for knuckles that have absolutely nothing to do with his transformation. If Hasbro would dare repaint Rook as Brawl, Takara would be forced to do a new Brawl mold like they did for Groove. They have too much G1 pride to play around with fans like that. I suspect a new tank mold for brawl that will be retooled into Nosecone.

Im not gonna lie, Im intrigued by what Victorion will look like even though they will all be male bodies with fembot heads. I might rename her "Butchmaster". I agree with you though that the autobot limbs and cyclonus are milking the cow dry. But its just a silly novelty for people who forgot that there was no Autobot combiner in the Masquerade episode...just 2 Menasors. Let them have their corny Autobot combiner. We already got the characters in the CHUG line years ago. if I got some extra cash when they warm the walmart shelves, I might buy them just for s**t and giggles.

I hear ya, X. My only point in mentioning CW Sunstreaker et al was in how Has/Tak has designed CW figures with the intent of repainting them into other characters that make little to no sense. This hinders creativity to an extent and the figures suffer because of that. Most, if not all, of what 3rds have done for repainting has a least a little bit of merit to the characters.

And yeah, I'm willing to bet Rook is going to be Brawl . . . you heard it here first!!

NOS wrote:I hear ya, X. My only point in mentioning CW Sunstreaker et al was in how Has/Tak has designed CW figures with the intent of repainting them into other characters that make little to no sense. This hinders creativity to an extent and the figures suffer because of that. Most, if not all, of what 3rds have done for repainting has a least a little bit of merit to the characters.

And yeah, I'm willing to bet Rook is going to be Brawl . . . you heard it here first!!

The '1984 Combiner' is kind of a Straw Man, no? They're just doing that for funzies, and I would say reimagining those bots as a combiner is more creative than keeping the same old G1 stand-alone concept for those characters. It's not like they're coming at the expense of new molds.



On the above, yes, it comes down to personal preference and personal priorities. While I value playability (not that I play with everything all the time, but I'm growing weary of being scared about disturbing my 'display pieces'), that's on a kind of equal plane with aesthetics and poseability. I just happen to prefer Hasbro's 'toyetic' aesthetics over the admittedly attractive yet in my opinion over-wrought and over-stylized aesthetics FP and MT have adopted. And because I do care about functionality, I am all-in on the PE upgrades coming out, which will help in the posing department.

So it's not 'playability above all else' - I'm scoring things on multiple dimensions, and there are fixes for some of the Hasbro figures' deficiencies. There are no such fixes for the utter lack of playability I see in FP M3.

But, eh. Is what it is, right?

Ya know, I wouldn't really mind if they wanted to reimagine certain characters as combiners . . . It's when they skip the 'imagine' part and do a roulette/dartboard to see what might work and then roll with it.

But yeah, fair enough. I can't fault you for having your priorities. Different strokes, different folks.

NOS wrote:Ya know, I wouldn't really mind if they wanted to reimagine certain characters as combiners . . . It's when they skip the 'imagine' part and do a roulette/dartboard to see what might work and then roll with it.

But yeah, fair enough. I can't fault you for having your priorities. Different strokes, different folks.

That's right!

Also, thread successfully derailed.

megatronus wrote:

NOS wrote:Ya know, I wouldn't really mind if they wanted to reimagine certain characters as combiners . . . It's when they skip the 'imagine' part and do a roulette/dartboard to see what might work and then roll with it.

But yeah, fair enough. I can't fault you for having your priorities. Different strokes, different folks.

That's right!

Also, thread successfully derailed.

Na, I don't think so. It's an interesting discussion about the virtues of 3P and Has/Tak's approach to combiners this time around, and mostly told from the perspective of Defensor options. I enjoyed reading it, especially as there isn't much new news about Guardia.

I'm gone 1 day, and I come back to this thread with lots of excellent discussion and rationale without any dickery. Bravo, guys! I really enjoyed reading all of this debate.

NOS wrote:And yeah, I'm willing to bet Rook is going to be Brawl . . . you heard it here first!!

And I'm going to counter and say that the Rook mold will actually be used for Swindle instead of Brawl. It makes more sense to me, even if it doesn't give any consideration for what Brawl will be.

Wait, Brawl will be a Megatron/Warpath redeco and have another faux member of the Combaticons take Brawl's place in the gestalt. Takara WILL release a new, unique mold for Unite Warriors Brawl. FTW!

Back to Guardia/MakeToys: I agree that many of their figures seem overly complicated. And the CW figures are more fun to play with and transform. But I do like the overall combined mode of MT/FP gestalts over what Hasbro/Takara have given us. Superion is the one CW (so far) that I think shines, because it has good proportions and also pulls off a good neo-G1 look without going too far off the edge.

I still haven't opened up the CW Protectobots limbs yet but I'm hoping they are just as fun as other CW figures. Hot Spot could've used a bit more work. And those leg ratchets for Voyager CW figures could've used a bit more attention to detail in order to help the robot mode pose better.

So it's individual releases for Guardia. Pre orders up at BBTS, Kapow Toys and other toy distributors no doubt.

Axle/Groove and Rover/Streetwise are both priced at $64.99/£47.99 and scheduled for a late June early July release.

Preordered so fast my wallet exploded.

Hmm. Odds this'll be a box set, one day? I definitely think there'll be less demand for this combiner, than for their previous ones. But I'm still a bit miffed that they've rereleased Yellow Giant -- with improvements. I don't mind being an early adopter who supports a company's efforts, but not if I'm going to get kicked in the end.

Andrius wrote:Hmm. Odds this'll be a box set, one day? I definitely think there'll be less demand for this combiner, than for their previous ones. But I'm still a bit miffed that they've rereleased Yellow Giant -- with improvements. I don't mind being an early adopter who supports a company's efforts, but not if I'm going to get kicked in the end.

I see your point but there has been a fan voice lobbying for an improved yellow Giant.

I'm very excited about this set & how it's being released.