The Energon Pub

Yes, but this movie verse is in no way following the comic time line.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:Is Wolverine supposed to have at least a cameo?

I don't think so. This takes place during his weapon x years.

I don't remember, wasn't Wolverine around in the cartoon of the 90s when it got to the Apocalypse story?

yes but this isint the cartoon, 1 of many examples of that is Havok being older then cyclopes

Ironhidensh wrote:Yes, but this movie verse is in no way following the comic time line.

right, not the comics either, 1 example is Archangel not being Angel ..........unless we are getting more timne travel

I believe Havok is actually old enough to be Cyclop's daddy.

Ironhidensh wrote:I believe Havok is actually old enough to be Cyclop's daddy.

you might be right, lets see.

we first see Havok in "First class" 1963, rough guess between 16 and 19 years old.

We meet a teen age Cyclopes, in high school in Wolverine origins the relevant part of the film takes place in the mid to late 70's.
Scott is likely 15 since his powers are just manifesting

so, Havok would need to become a daddy by 15 or 17 to be Scotts daddy, possible yes but not likely

X-Men Origins is no longer canon. So Cyclops' appearance there does not count.

Nemesis Maximo wrote:X-Men Origins is no longer canon. So Cyclops' appearance there does not count.

this again?

I see claims like this all the time, so far no one has been able to muster up a effective argument that proves all the events in "origins" are no longer canon.

yes, some history has changed, thats no reason to assume everything did.

for example, theres no reason in hell the changes made to history would effect the birth of Cyclopes since he would have been born before the chsanges were made

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Nemesis Maximo wrote:X-Men Origins is no longer canon. So Cyclops' appearance there does not count.

this again?

I see claims like this all the time, so far no one has been able to muster up a effective argument that proves all the events in "origins" are no longer canon.

yes, some history has changed, thats no reason to assume everything did.

for example, theres no reason in hell the changes made to history would effect the birth of Cyclopes since he would have been born before the chsanges were made

This is an interview L.S. Donner, basically 50% of the reason the X-men are on the big screen at all. In it, she says that "forget about X-Men Origins: Wolverine" and X3 as well.


Also, consider this: in Origins, Scott Summers is in high school; so he's like, 17 at the most right? If Origins happens during the 1985 mostly, that means he was born in 1968 at the earliest. And since he would only have been 5 during the events of the 70s seen in DoFP, there's plenty of wiggle room for his history to change. Also Stryker, who was originally portrayed as a middle-age man in the late seventies/early eighties, is now supposed to be 20/30 years old, and hasn't yet met Wolverine even after the Vietnam War, which TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY is out of sync with Origins.. If anything is still canon from that film, it's Logan's birth and...that's just about it. Who can say which wars he was in anymore?

Nemesis Maximo wrote:Also, consider this: in Origins, Scott Summers is in high school; so he's like, 17 at the most right? If Origins happens during the 1985 mostly, that means he was born in 1968 at the earliest. And since he would only have been 5 during the events of the 70s seen in DoFP, there's plenty of wiggle room for his history to change. Also Stryker, who was originally portrayed as a middle-age man in the late seventies/early eighties, is now supposed to be 20/30 years old, and hasn't yet met Wolverine even after the Vietnam War, which TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY is out of sync with Origins.. If anything is still canon from that film, it's Logan's birth and...that's just about it. Who can say which wars he was in anymore?

Also, Deadpool takes place in the modern day, completely disregarding everything involving Wade Wilson in Origins, including his age and involvement with Weapon X.

Nemesis Maximo wrote:This is an interview L.S. Donner, basically 50% of the reason the X-men are on the big screen at all. In it, she says that "forget about X-Men Origins: Wolverine" and X3 as well.

thanks for the vid
but you should know by now that interviews of this sort are not ,and can not effect canon

Also, consider this: in Origins, Scott Summers is in high school; so he's like, 17 at the most right? If Origins happens during the 1985 mostly, that means he was born in 1968 at the earliest. And since he would only have been 5 during the events of the 70s seen in DoFP, there's plenty of wiggle room for his history to change.

well i figured he was about 15 in "origins" because his powers are first showing, but i can go with 17 for the sake of this conversation

and sure, its possible some of his history changed, but its equally possible none of it did.
and for sure the changes to history happened after his birth

Also Stryker, who was originally portrayed as a middle-age man in the late seventies/early eighties, is now supposed to be 20/30 years old, and hasn't yet met Wolverine even after the Vietnam War, which TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY is out of sync with Origins..

Stryker, middle age in "origins"............he didnt look that way to me, at best he looked about to be in his early 30's to me, which would fit with his look in the 2nd x film.

but is one of the hazards of switching actors on characters, some are taller, different eye colors, look older or younger, fatter, thiner, hell even sticking with original actors can lead to inconsistent looks.

its a good thing what or how old a character "looks" like is not a sticking point in consideration in arguments over canon....unless theres a huge discrepancy like childhood to 30 years old, or if a age number was given in the film

Shadowman wrote:

Nemesis Maximo wrote:Also, consider this: in Origins, Scott Summers is in high school; so he's like, 17 at the most right? If Origins happens during the 1985 mostly, that means he was born in 1968 at the earliest. And since he would only have been 5 during the events of the 70s seen in DoFP, there's plenty of wiggle room for his history to change. Also Stryker, who was originally portrayed as a middle-age man in the late seventies/early eighties, is now supposed to be 20/30 years old, and hasn't yet met Wolverine even after the Vietnam War, which TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY is out of sync with Origins.. If anything is still canon from that film, it's Logan's birth and...that's just about it. Who can say which wars he was in anymore?

Also, Deadpool takes place in the modern day, completely disregarding everything involving Wade Wilson in Origins, including his age and involvement with Weapon X.

ill wait till i see that film to debate it, its possible this new Wade is the son, brother cousin or other relative of the one in "origins"

ID4 Resurgence

Stuartmaximus wrote:ID4 Resurgence

What's that got to do with Marvel?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Nemesis Maximo wrote:This is an interview L.S. Donner, basically 50% of the reason the X-men are on the big screen at all. In it, she says that "forget about X-Men Origins: Wolverine" and X3 as well.

thanks for the vid
but you should know by now that interviews of this sort are not ,and can not effect canon

Sure they can. Especially when it comes from one of the two masterminds behind the franchise. She pretty plainly states that DoFP was written to rectify the inconsistencies between the original trilogy and the "young" trilogy, and to all but wipe out the events of Origins and X3.

Also, consider this: in Origins, Scott Summers is in high school; so he's like, 17 at the most right? If Origins happens during the 1985 mostly, that means he was born in 1968 at the earliest. And since he would only have been 5 during the events of the 70s seen in DoFP, there's plenty of wiggle room for his history to change.

well i figured he was about 15 in "origins" because his powers are first showing, but i can go with 17 for the sake of this conversation

and sure, its possible some of his history changed, but its equally possible none of it did.
and for sure the changes to history happened after his birth

I just said 17 to give him the earliest possible birth year. If he was 15, that would simply put his birth year at 1970, an even smaller gap between that and DoFP. And his history has already changed: in Origins, he met an already bald, at least middle aged, walking Prof. X. Whereas in Apocalypse, which is now canon, he knows the professor as a paraplegic with a glorious mullet. Also, in Origins, he helped a high school aged Emma Frost escape the Weapon X program, even though 20 years earlier she was a seductress working for Sebastian Shaw.

Also Stryker, who was originally portrayed as a middle-age man in the late seventies/early eighties, is now supposed to be 20/30 years old, and hasn't yet met Wolverine even after the Vietnam War, which TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY is out of sync with Origins..

Stryker, middle age in "origins"............he didnt look that way to me, at best he looked about to be in his early 30's to me, which would fit with his look in the 2nd x film.

If we use Danny Huston's real age, he was 47 at the time of Origins' release. So then it wouldn't be too far off to assume he was 47 when he recruited Logan and Creed into his outfit, right? In about 1973-ish.

but is one of the hazards of switching actors on characters, some are taller, different eye colors, look older or younger, fatter, thiner, hell even sticking with original actors can lead to inconsistent looks.

its a good thing what or how old a character "looks" like is not a sticking point in consideration in arguments over canon....unless theres a huge discrepancy like childhood to 30 years old, or if a age number was given in the film

But in a continuity heavy franchise? I think it matters a great deal.

btw, i just noticed something you said before, you said "origins took place in 1985 or so.?

no, it took place in the mid to late 70's.

Nemesis Maximo wrote:Sure they can.

no they cant, no matter whos making the statements.

Not even comments and interviews made by Geene Rodenberry ,the creator of star trek, were canon.

to be called "canon" it must be something see or said within the body of the fiction itself, not from anything outside of it.So if its not made clear in the film itself then its not canon.

and for sure the changes to history happened after his birth

I just said 17 to give him the earliest possible birth year. If he was 15, that would simply put his birth year at 1970, an even smaller gap between that and DoFP. [/quote]

as i said above, "origins" takes place in the 70's, which would mean Scott had to be born in the mid 60's.

And his history has already changed: in Origins, he met an already bald, at least middle aged, walking Prof. X. Whereas in Apocalypse, which is now canon, he knows the professor as a paraplegic with a glorious mullet. Also, in Origins, he helped a high school aged Emma Frost escape the Weapon X program, even though 20 years earlier she was a seductress working for Sebastian Shaw.

Emma is easy to explain.
"origins" gave us a no mental powers, Emma Silverfox,sister of Kylie Silverfox

"first classe" gave us a telepathic Emma Frost

the bald thing isint an issue, he refused to shave his head in "first class
its poossible he shaved his head in one timeline and didnt in the next.
as for walking,
1] Scott was blind-folded so he didnt see pro-x walking
2] so what if he walked, hes gone from not walking to walking to not walking again several times in the comics, not to mention he couldnt walk at the end of "first class" and walked again at the start of "DOFP", so maybe they were experimenting with Beasts formula allowing him to walk a bit from time to time
3] pro-x may have never been there at all,[in origins] what we and the other escapees saws may have been a telepathic astral image

If we use Danny Huston's real age, he was 47 at the time of Origins' release. So then it wouldn't be too far off to assume he was 47 when he recruited Logan and Creed into his outfit, right? In about 1973-ish.

its never safe to assume a characters age based on that of the actor

But in a continuity heavy franchise? I think it matters a great deal.

you are free to feel that way.
but longer running shows/franchises have proved that school of thought wrong

Sto, I sure hope you recognize that your argument has devolved into "Nuh uh, that totally doesn't count!"

I mean, seriously, who died and put you in charge of continuity that you get to determine authorial intent? Origins and X3 aren't canon anymore. Do what everyone else did and cheer over it.

Burn wrote:

Stuartmaximus wrote:ID4 Resurgence

What's that got to do with Marvel?

to be fair, marvel did some id4 related comics

Shadowman wrote:Sto, I sure hope you recognize that your argument has devolved into "Nuh uh, that totally doesn't count!"

I mean, seriously, who died and put you in charge of continuity that you get to determine authorial intent? Origins and X3 aren't canon anymore. Do what everyone else did and cheer over it.

hardly.
my argument is rooted on well established norms and practics from this kind of fiction and fandoms.

and you have participated more then enough "canon debates" on this fansite alone to know that authorial intent is worthless as far as canon is considered.

what i want for the series is also not an issue here.
im just pointing out the solid facts as we have been given them.

anyone can believe what they want, but so far nothing seen or said in the films completely wipes out every event seen in X-3 and Origins

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Sto, I sure hope you recognize that your argument has devolved into "Nuh uh, that totally doesn't count!"

I mean, seriously, who died and put you in charge of continuity that you get to determine authorial intent? Origins and X3 aren't canon anymore. Do what everyone else did and cheer over it.

hardly.
my argument is rooted on well established norms and practics from this kind of fiction and fandoms.

Um...established norms and practices of...what, exactly? You can't seriously mean superhero fiction, because those go through large-scale retcons all the time.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:and you have participated more then enough "canon debates" on this fansite alone to know that authorial intent is worthless as far as canon is considered.

I know that some people consider it worthless. I have never once taken it to meant that it is.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:what i want for the series is also not an issue here.
im just pointing out the solid facts as we have been given them.

We've been given facts that Origins is no longer canon, the issue is that you and you alone don't count it because it isn't from what you and you alone consider to be the "correct" source.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:anyone can believe what they want, but so far nothing seen or said in the films completely wipes out every event seen in X-3 and Origins

Explain Emma Frost, then. While you're at it, explain how Xavier can walk and use his telepathy at the same time in Origins.

Also, as for X3 no longer being canon, dude, Jean, Charles, and Scott are alive again.

Shadowman wrote:Um...established norms and practices of...what, exactly? You can't seriously mean superhero fiction, because those go through large-scale retcons all the time.

yes comic film, sci-fi fantasy...all related

and yes again, they get retconed all the time, but untill those retcons are spelled out, the old info is canon.

and to be clear, obviously some history has been retconed, we just dont know how much yet

I know that some people consider it worthless. I have never once it to meant that it is.

what writrers say and do change all the time, the intent for one film can change by the time its completed

We've been given facts that Origins is no longer canon, the issue is that you and you alone don't count it because it isn't from what you and you alone consider to be the "correct" source.

no, not me alone, again, you have been part of many debates here on very similar issues
how many debates have you seen over the creator intent of particular transformers issues?

constructicon origin, who became cyclonus, rumble is red/no hes blue, was that the matrix or a spark holder primal took from prime......... how many more can i list?

the answers are always "what is seen and said in the final product is canon"
not what may have been intended

Explain Emma Frost, then. While you're at it, explain how Xavier can walk and use his telepathy at the same time in Origins.

boy, you really dont pay attention.
i explained those already.


Emma is easy to explain.
"origins" gave us a no mental powers, Emma Silverfox,sister of Kylie Silverfox

"first classe" gave us a telepathic Emma Frost

the bald thing isint an issue, he refused to shave his head in "first class
its poossible he shaved his head in one timeline and didnt in the next.
as for walking,
1] Scott was blind-folded so he didnt see pro-x walking
2] so what if he walked, hes gone from not walking to walking to not walking again several times in the comics, not to mention he couldnt walk at the end of "first class" and walked again at the start of "DOFP", so maybe they were experimenting with Beasts formula allowing him to walk a bit from time to time
3] pro-x may have never been there at all,[in origins] what we and the other escapees saws may have been a telepathic astral image

take your pick, they all fit

Also, as for X3 no longer being canon, dude, Jean, Charles, and Scott are alive again.

Pro-X came back to life before the time/history change event, Wolverines 2nd solo film showed us that and that he was shocked to see him alive

besides,Scott,Jean and Por-x all have died and come back several times in the comics.....so its no big thing they back to life here

as i said several times, obviously some changes to history have been made, but so far nothing seen or said in the films completely wipes out every event seen in X-3 and Origins

It's really silly that you're trying to argue against the official word just because it wasn't stated in the exact place for you to consider it real. Origins and X3 are non-canon. No amount of arguing is going to make you correct, it's just going to make you look sillier and sillier that you keep trying to argue for two movies that everyone hates.

Jesus Christ, get off it already.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:btw, i just noticed something you said before, you said "origins took place in 1985 or so.?

no, it took place in the mid to late 70's.

You know what, Sto? You're actually right about that one. My bad.

Here is the unofficially official timeline of the X-Men films, taken from their own wikia site. You know as well as I do those Wikia folks don't mess around with this stuff.

You will plainly see that Origins wants us to believe that Logan quit Stryker's Team X gig while in Nigeria in the year 1973, THE VERY SAME YEAR that Stryker now works for Trask and still hasn't even met Logan and Creed in order to even recruit them in the first place. Counter THAT.

Nemesis Maximo wrote:
Sure they can.

no they cant, no matter whos making the statements.

Not even comments and interviews made by Geene Rodenberry ,the creator of star trek, were canon.

to be called "canon" it must be something see or said within the body of the fiction itself, not from anything outside of it.So if its not made clear in the film itself then its not canon.

Except that in this case, Origins CLEARLY contains contradictions that can be seen within the body of the fiction. By default, that would make it non-canon. That DoFP can be seen within the body of the fiction to overwright the time period that Origins supposedly takes place in only reinforces the fact that Wolverine's first solo film is no longer canon.

And his history has already changed: in Origins, he met an already bald, at least middle aged, walking Prof. X. Whereas in Apocalypse, which is now canon, he knows the professor as a paraplegic with a glorious mullet. Also, in Origins, he helped a high school aged Emma Frost escape the Weapon X program, even though 20 years earlier she was a seductress working for Sebastian Shaw.

Emma is easy to explain.
"origins" gave us a no mental powers, Emma Silverfox, sister of Kylie Silverfox.

I'm being totally serious here when I ask this: do you have a credible source for this, or did you just pull it out of your ear?

the bald thing isint an issue, he refused to shave his head in "first class
its poossible he shaved his head in one timeline and didnt in the next.

Well, the trailer for Apocalypse has a scene which seems to make a big deal out of his baldness. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with Xavier deliberately deciding to shear his luxurious lockes.
as for walking,
1] Scott was blind-folded so he didnt see pro-x walking
2] so what if he walked, hes gone from not walking to walking to not walking again several times in the comics - [/quote]
These aren't the comics. There have been enough deviations from the source material to know that just because it happens in the book, doesn't make it so in the films.

not to mention he couldnt walk at the end of "first class" and walked again at the start of "DOFP", so maybe they were experimenting with Beasts formula allowing him to walk a bit from time to time
3] pro-x may have never been there at all,[in origins] what we and the other escapees saws may have been a telepathic astral image

You sort of countered your own counter there by bringing up Beast's formula. While Xavier is taken that medication to restore his mobility, he has no access to his telepathy. If we were to assume it was an astral projection, why would he project himself walking when the students he rescued would only meet him in person later and see the truth?

If we use Danny Huston's real age, he was 47 at the time of Origins' release. So then it wouldn't be too far off to assume he was 47 when he recruited Logan and Creed into his outfit, right? In about 1973-ish.

its never safe to assume a characters age based on that of the actor

Then why would they bother casting him the way they did? If they wanted us to think he was younger, there are probably a dozen better choices than Danny Huston, who clearly looks 40-50 years old. So yes, it IS pretty safe to assume his age based on the actor they chose.

But in a continuity heavy franchise? I think it matters a great deal.

you are free to feel that way.
but longer running shows/franchises have proved that school of thought wrong

Which ones? And don't say Amazing Spider-Man.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Burn wrote:

Stuartmaximus wrote:ID4 Resurgence

What's that got to do with Marvel?

to be fair, marvel did some id4 related comics

Thanks Sto

Shadowman wrote:It's really silly that you're trying to argue against the official word just because it wasn't stated in the exact place for you to consider it real. Origins and X3 are non-canon. No amount of arguing is going to make you correct, it's just going to make you look sillier and sillier that you keep trying to argue for two movies that everyone hates.

Jesus Christ, get off it already.

Brace yourselves everyone.........

Shadowman is 100% correct here. Because of us being in agreement, some small tropical island just died in volcano fire. Hopefully Trump owned it.

Also, a big thank you to Burn for that dope Deadpool video. It made me feel warm and naughty on the inside.

Seriously, this movie looks ducking amazing.

Shadowman wrote:It's really silly that you're trying to argue against the official word just because it wasn't stated in the exact place for you to consider it real. Origins and X3 are non-canon. No amount of arguing is going to make you correct, it's just going to make you look sillier and sillier that you keep trying to argue for two movies that everyone hates.

Jesus Christ, get off it already.

rightttttttttttttttttt

just say you cant offer up a counter, its ok bud.

im pretty sure ive seen you argue the same issues of whats canon the same way in other debates, im just not going to bother looking them up.

if you find it so silly, why reply?