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cotss2012 wrote:SlyTF1 wrote:Ok, I admit. It's not just the size of the explosions, but it's also the quantity of the explosions. Sorry. Pardon me for leaving that part out.
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:RhA wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:RhA wrote:Hook, line, sinker.
BTW I'd love to see Bay make TF4. I really enjoyed these flicks.
I enjoyed them for what they were, but was disappointed because of what they werent.
Exactly. The problem is that people are looking for what isn't there. I keep looking for money in my bankaccount, but it just isn't there. Seems useless, doesn't it?
I would say that they are looking for what we should have gotten....and thats where the real problem lies.
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:SlyTF1 wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:SlyTF1 wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:SlyTF1 wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:cotss2012 wrote:Burn wrote:So how about that Michael Bay guy maybe changing his mind about doing another Transformers movie huh?
(Back on topic people)
He can direct as many TF movies as he wants, but for the love of God, will someone please hand him a decent script? Seriously.
I'm not sure that will help much.
Any Bay film that I ever enjoyed seemed to be due to the actors in the film, not the script.
Any movie period that I've ever enjoyed seemed to be due to the size of the explosions, not the actors or script.
Dude,I really hope that was a joke. I dont like to pass judgments on the taste of others, but if your really telling me that you have only EVER enjoyed films because of size of the explosions , and by that alone you judge the quality of any film,then I feel sorry for you.
There have been a lot of films that sport great stories with great performances with no explosions at all that are just fantastic.
Ok, I admit. It's not just the size of the explosions, but it's also the quantity of the explosions. Sorry. Pardon me for leaving that part out.
again, I hope your joking.
I am not.
then again, I feel sorry for you, your missing out on/ miss judging a lot of great films.
SEXFIGHTER wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:SlyTF1 wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:SlyTF1 wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:SlyTF1 wrote:sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:cotss2012 wrote:Burn wrote:So how about that Michael Bay guy maybe changing his mind about doing another Transformers movie huh?
(Back on topic people)
He can direct as many TF movies as he wants, but for the love of God, will someone please hand him a decent script? Seriously.
I'm not sure that will help much.
Any Bay film that I ever enjoyed seemed to be due to the actors in the film, not the script.
Any movie period that I've ever enjoyed seemed to be due to the size of the explosions, not the actors or script.
Dude,I really hope that was a joke. I dont like to pass judgments on the taste of others, but if your really telling me that you have only EVER enjoyed films because of size of the explosions , and by that alone you judge the quality of any film,then I feel sorry for you.
There have been a lot of films that sport great stories with great performances with no explosions at all that are just fantastic.
Ok, I admit. It's not just the size of the explosions, but it's also the quantity of the explosions. Sorry. Pardon me for leaving that part out.
again, I hope your joking.
I am not.
then again, I feel sorry for you, your missing out on/ miss judging a lot of great films.
Gotta agree there, you're missing out big time fella. I find Bays Transformers flawed in too many areas, not just his over the top direction. The designs, the casting and of course..those SCRIPTS!!!
SlyTF1 wrote:Well I don't care about a script, or actors, and the designs in the movies are perfect IMO, I just want something that distracts me from my miserable life; and for that all I want is stuff blowing up.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
RhA wrote:no, the problem lies in what you personally wanted, not in what we should have gotten.
SlyTF1 wrote:I just want something that distracts me from my miserable life; and for that all I want is stuff blowing up.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
RhA wrote:no, the problem lies in what you personally wanted, not in what we should have gotten.
JOP wrote:RhA wrote:no, the problem lies in what you personally wanted, not in what we should have gotten.
Firstly, how precisely does one determine "...what we should have gotten"?
Secondly, the qualities that sto_vo_kor_2000 appears to be seeking in a finished Transformers film - consistent narrative, emotional depth, character development, polished dialogue and so on - are generally considered to be measures of cinematic excellence. Why would we not, as Transformers fans, desire for a Transformers-branded film to feature such measures?
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:RhA wrote:no, the problem lies in what you personally wanted, not in what we should have gotten.
Not at all.
Despite the franchises menial beginnings as a toyline, the brand as grown up with its audience, sure we have pleanty of kid friendly silly stories, but we have also gotten some wonderful, in depth , stories over the years with wonderful amounts or character development.
The brand deserved to have its best qualities reflected in a motion picture.A film should have taken all that has been the best over the years and take a step up.
That is what we should have gotten, that is what the brand deserved.
Now, I'll admit, the films were enjoyable in a "roller coaster" kind of way.But they could have made a better appeal to what the brand has become.SlyTF1 wrote:I just want something that distracts me from my miserable life; and for that all I want is stuff blowing up.
believe me, that I can understand, but I find a greater amount of distraction when I get a good stor and good acting with my explosions.
how tasty is a a peace of raw chicken with out cooling it in seasoning ???
JOP wrote:Firstly, how precisely does one determine "...what we should have gotten"?
Secondly, the qualities that sto_vo_kor_2000 appears to be seeking in a finished Transformers film - consistent narrative, emotional depth, character development, polished dialogue and so on - are generally considered to be measures of cinematic excellence. Why would we not, as Transformers fans, desire for a Transformers-branded film to feature such measures?
RhA wrote:Excuse the gargantuan quote.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
RhA wrote: I do not claim that either of you can't want something. That's your call. My point is that you should not speak about what 'we should have gotten', because when I read something like that I feel like you're telling me that I should want somethin else in a movie. Can I please pick for myself what I like? Thank you.
All your arguments revolve around you personal tastes. You want more character delevopment, less explosions, less potty humor and that's fine. You need to be able to speak about preferences, that's what we're here for. But you cannot state with a straight face that everyone should want what you want and that's why I say;
no, the problem lies in what you personally wanted, not in what we should have gotten.
ps. Stovokor stated that 'we should have gotten', I replied to it.
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I base it on taking the best of what we have gotten over the years and at least expecting that much.JOP wrote:Firstly, how precisely does one determine "...what we should have gotten"?
Shadowman wrote:I will put forth the theory that it was the internet itself trying to punch him in the face.
5150 Cruiser wrote:Very well said. And i agree that what it all boils down to is personal prefferance. What one conciders the best of the franchise, doesn't nessasarly equivilet to what someone else does.
Again, what exactly is "The best we have gotten over the years" without being subjective?
What you concider "The best" doesn't mean the next person is going to feel the same way.
RhA wrote:Stovokor stated that 'we should have gotten', I replied to it.
RhA wrote:I do not claim that either of you can't want something. That's your call. My point is that you should not speak about what 'we should have gotten', because when I read something like that I feel like you're telling me that I should want something else in a movie. Can I please pick for myself what I like? Thank you.
5150 Cruiser wrote:Again, what exactly is "The best we have gotten over the years" without being subjective?
Autobot032 wrote:Kids are the primary audience, always have been, always will be, nothing's going to change that. We come in at a very distant second. Kids want Bumblebee and Optimus Prime. Those two are their heroes. We, as adults and collectors, can't stand another one of those two. Not at all. Yet majority rules and says "MUST MAKE MOAR! NAO!" and majority vote wins.
JOP wrote:Now, I would like to respond to Autobot032's comment, as I feel this rather gets at the crux of the matter:
What I wonder is this: why should we assume that the desires of a given section of fans, and the desires of the intended audience, are at all times mutually exclusive?
JOP wrote:For instance: let us assume that a given Transformers film is 70% 'good'. Now, let's imagine that a talented writer was hired to polish the script, reconcile a few plot holes, and smooth out some of the more clunky dialogue. At this point, the film moves up to 80% 'good'. At what point during this process were the needs of the Bumblebee-obsessed children's toy market, or the summer blockbuster crowd, harmed and hindered?
JOP wrote:If there is indeed a Transformers 4 on the horizon, I would very much like for it to feature a script of significantly higher quality than Transformers 1, 2 and 3. Such a script would greatly enhance my enjoyment of the movie, and other viewers like myself; and yet would not in any way detract from the enjoyment of a more traditionally-(explosively)-minded audience. So why oppose the desire for a higher quality of writing?
Autobot032 wrote:Orci & Kurtzman stepped down, Kruger took over full time and he delivered the most down to Earth and realistic of the the three movies.
JOP wrote:For instance: let us assume that a given Transformers film is 70% 'good'. Now, let's imagine that a talented writer was hired to polish the script, reconcile a few plot holes, and smooth out some of the more clunky dialogue. At this point, the film moves up to 80% 'good'. At what point during this process were the needs of the Bumblebee-obsessed children's toy market, or the summer blockbuster crowd, harmed and hindered?
NatsumeRyu wrote:To get a truly fantastic film I honestly think we need a smaller budget. Yes, I said it.
NatsumeRyu wrote:I think the fans would either have to make it (Lord knows enough of us know how, it's just finding the time to volunteer to it)
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
JOP wrote:I understand your point - I truly do - but I believe you are interpreting sto_vo_kor_2000's comment in an excessively literal manner. Certainly, one could argue that the phrase "...We should have gotten" is more than a little hyperbolic; but it's a far cry to consequently deduce that svk2K intends to choose our opinions for us!
As for svk2K's point that we should perhaps expect more from the live-action films; I ask again: why not? The measures under discussion - character development, emotional depth, and so on - are hallmarks of cinematic excellence. Why should we, as fans, not want the Transformers films to succeed along a critical axis, as well as those of financial outcome and raw entertainment value? To what end specifically would we seek to 'pick for ourselves' a film that is marred with narrative flaws, or stilted dialogue?
(So we are clear: I am not disputing the personal choices of fans to seek something else in their Transformers film experience; but I do not, at this time, understanding the underlying logic supporting said choices - and I would very much like to.)
JOP wrote:That statement was made by sto_vo_kor_2000, and is therefor for svk2K to qualify. Insofar as I have been discussing the issue however, it has been in (loosely-defined) terms of inserting narrative coherence, character development, emotional depth and so forth into a franchise in which these things have either been notoriously lacking or poorly handled.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
Autobot032 wrote:Exactly. Another way to look at it is this way:
Come at this issue from the toy standpoint. [snipped for space]
The movie contents are accepted by the majority (by that I mean, people in general, not the fandom.)
Autobot032 wrote:No one's saying they can't both happen, just that that's usually how it works. Hasbro's main concern is making money. Always has been, always will be. Both sides can't win always and whatever side will make them guaranteed money and a lot of it, will always win.
As for the summer blockbuster crowd... What about the TF franchise doesn't work for that mold? Action? Check. Overblown? Check. Special effects, bad dialogue, excessive running time? Check..
I'm not opposed to better writing, but I'm also not expecting it to be overwhelmingly Oscar material either. I guess it's because I'm a realis
I see the entire TransFormers franchise as it is: A toy that spawned a cartoon, comics and some movies. Sure, it can grow, evolve and spread it's wings, I have no problem with that, but let's face it, this all started with some toys. I'm going to treat it as such.
If I wanted Optimus to spout Shakespeare,
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
RhA wrote:Excuse the gargantuan quote.
I do not claim that either of you can't want something. That's your call. My point is that you should not speak about what 'we should have gotten', because when I read something like that I feel like you're telling me that I should want somethin else in a movie. Can I please pick for myself what I like? Thank you.
All your arguments revolve around you personal tastes. You want more character delevopment, less explosions, less potty humor and that's fine. You need to be able to speak about preferences, that's what we're here for. But you cannot state with a straight face that everyone should want what you want and that's why I say;
no, the problem lies in what you personally wanted, not in what we should have gotten.
ps. Stovokor stated that 'we should have gotten', I replied to it.
5150 Cruiser wrote:Firstly, how precisely does one determine "best"
...what we should have gotten"?
What exactly detirmes the best?
NatsumeRyu wrote:That's the thing. Because it doesn't affect the garnering of the main audience, it's therefore a lesser focus of the big wigs. And so less money will go into it.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:My point wasnt to tell others what to want in a film or in life
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:but to point out that that we have gotten better [in some categories] from other examples of TF fiction, and other fictions made to film in similar genres, and we should have gotten at least as much.
RhA wrote:First you retract the statement that you're telling people what they should want
So it's not about what we should want in life, but you're only dictating what we should want in movies?
Or maybe I misread you wrong and there is something promised to you that never got delivered.
I believe Michael Bay promised us a version of TF's we've never seen before. Which is exaclty what we got. By my defnition that's what we should have gotten and, wait for it... Have gotten.
-edit- I'm not angry, BTW. It irks me that intelligent boardmembers sometimes get lost in personal preferences and project that as something we all should want. I may take things literally, but you know, text does not have a facial expression.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
JOP wrote:inserting narrative coherence, character development, emotional depth and so forth into a franchise in which these things have either been notoriously lacking or poorly handled.
RiddlerJ wrote:Each one will come with an autographed picture of Michael Bay sitting on top of a huge pile of money.
cotss2012 wrote:JOP wrote:inserting narrative coherence, character development, emotional depth and so forth into a franchise in which these things have either been notoriously lacking or poorly handled.
Someone obviously never saw G1 season 1, TFTM
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
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