The Energon Pub

Personally I think he looks pretty slick. I'm a little sad about the size, but not surprised though. Definately not going to cancel my pre-order. Now if they would just make me a MP Snarl I can die happy...

zimmus prime wrote:Maybe we can use Starscreams crown until fansproject or someone is nice enough to do up a King Grimlock crown. He is awesome, though.
***wishy wishy*** maybe (eventually)we will see him at retail like SS and Prime

I thought he was supposed to come with the crown? Along with the transfer device, apron, tray w/ drinks and his weapons.

First-Aid wrote:As for the size thing, if he's $150US now with that size, how much do you duppose he'd be if he WAS another 40% bigger? I'm betting $225-250US...

I doubt it would be that much. A lot of his cost to the US customer is shipping etc. since he is a Japanese exclusive. I think he's retailing for like $110 or so in Japan. And while plastic costs have increased, I don't think they are that much of the cost here.

But I'd have been willing to pay $200 or so for him over here, if he were larger. He is supposed to be a Masterpiece after all.

Heck, regular 12" human figures from Medicom & Sideshow can command that kind of cost and they reuse the same bodies and don't have transformations.

Grimlock looks amazing. If he gets a US release I'll get him for sure.

Man, I'd love to see some pictures of him next to the Binaltech/Alternator figures. A shot with of him with Alt Prowl and Grimlock would be VERY interesting. I bet he fits perfectly with that line in terms of size.

When people bicker about scale it amuses me. Transformers have NEVER been entirely within scale with each other.

Size is irrelivant to how awesome this is going to be.

Swiftpaw wrote:When people bicker about scale it amuses me. Transformers have NEVER been entirely within scale with each other.

Size is irrelivant to how awesome this is going to be.

Maybe, but there is "pretty close" and "way off".

Nice ! I hope he is available in wal-mart or toys-r-us for a fair 50 bucks !

Rated X wrote:Nice ! I hope he is available in wal-mart or toys-r-us for a fair 50 bucks !

I never liked the "F" word...

Rated X wrote:Nice ! I hope he is available in wal-mart or toys-r-us for a fair 50 bucks !

Oh you mean the same Walmart that's charging 13 bucks for a deluxe now? Dream on. I'd be willing to bet that if did ever see a US release, we couldn't get him for anything less than 60+ dollars, about the price of some Supreme class figures.

GetterDragun wrote:

Diem wrote:

Ravage XK wrote:

Diem wrote:

Ravage XK wrote:Very nice. I see no real reason for the price hike though other than Tomy/Takara knowing it will sell and being greedy.

Forgetting the electronics?

Its only a light up sword isnt it? Prime and Megs had a light.

Nope. Light up sword and gun (presumably via the hand), light up dino-mode mouth, light up robo-mode visor with colour change.

It's still a single power source with two extra LEDs, Armada Prime had a crap load more electronics and was still priced at Leader Class pricing. I see no reason that if MP Grimlock was sold in the states that it wouldn't be priced around $39.99.

I don't know about that, I would think the MP title would drive the price up more, as dumb as it may seem.

On another note about the electronics, A: In the vid and pix, the visor looked chromed to me, and if it is, I don't see why they'd put leds for the bot eyes, as they probably wouldn't show through. B: If I am mistaken about the 'bot eyes (and I sincerely hope I am) I thought I'd read somewhere that his dino eyes would light up too? Anyone else recall that?

So I understand all the disappointment about the size versus cost and all but can we really factor Prime in as part of the equation? He may still see production runs but his cost structure was originally set up years ago.

Sure, the Seekers are a closer comparison size wise, but I get this feeling that in order to keep costs down on them recently, they've picked a lower cost vendor that wound up costing them: Thundercracker=bad paint, reversed chest thrusters, etc. Additionally, they had a lot greater buying power initially on the Seekers knowing they could repaint the hell out of them.

And back to that Seeker to Grimlock comparison, Grimlock has got to contain more plastic than SS, TC, SW, I guess 20-30 percent more looking at arm size, leg size, etc. Between the materials cost difference there, the added gimmicks, and the extra accessories, that attributes for at least some of the higher cost. I'd probably guess that the rest all boils down to demand is probably lower so the cost per figure has actually gone up, much like we see with Deluxes, Leaders, etc. here in the US. I suspect because Takara can't order as many from its supplier, each Grimlock is winding up costing them more to produce.

In the end, if people want to send a message to Takara, don't buy him.

Swiftpaw wrote:When people bicker about scale it amuses me. Transformers have NEVER been entirely within scale with each other.

Size is irrelivant to how awesome this is going to be.

Your missing the point, it's not about scale, it's about plastic and metal content, and this figure appears to have as much as a regular Leader class, so why is the price the same as MP Prime?

Would be neat if they did an MP Rodimus, or Shockwave, or you know maybe even Soundwave.

I was about to suggest Unicron but that would be humongus

GetterDragun wrote:

Swiftpaw wrote:When people bicker about scale it amuses me. Transformers have NEVER been entirely within scale with each other.

Size is irrelivant to how awesome this is going to be.

Your missing the point, it's not about scale, it's about plastic and metal content, and this figure appears to have as much as a regular Leader class, so why is the price the same as MP Prime?

Yeah, I see the argument but it's the same kind of argument that I make about the box of wheat thins I buy at the store. A year ago, they were 1.88. Now they're 2.98. Granted, in this case, it's the same contents, just an increase in price, but I seriously doubt that if they released Prime now, we'd get him as big with as much metal for anywhere near the price he was or what they're marketing Grimlock for now.

Who knows, maybe the shrinking economy is spelling the end for the MP line. It's clear they're never probably going to be Prime/Megs big again.

GetterDragun wrote:

Diem wrote:

Ravage XK wrote:

Diem wrote:

Ravage XK wrote:Very nice. I see no real reason for the price hike though other than Tomy/Takara knowing it will sell and being greedy.

Forgetting the electronics?

Its only a light up sword isnt it? Prime and Megs had a light.

Nope. Light up sword and gun (presumably via the hand), light up dino-mode mouth, light up robo-mode visor with colour change.

It's still a single power source with two extra LEDs, Armada Prime had a crap load more electronics and was still priced at Leader Class pricing. I see no reason that if MP Grimlock was sold in the states that it wouldn't be priced around $39.99.

Didn't the Walmart-exclusive MP Starscream cost $69.99?

I doubt there's any chance of this thing being that cheap, assuming Hasbro ever releases it here.

omega666 wrote:Why couldn't the classics be like this? I hope they release him in the U.S.

Because Classics don't cost $140.

MagnusPrimal wrote:
Didn't the Walmart-exclusive MP Starscream cost $69.99?

I doubt there's any chance of this thing being that cheap, assuming Hasbro ever releases it here.

I think 20th Anniversary MP Prime from Hasbro was. I'm pretty sure SS was in the neighborhood of 47.99.

DevastaTTor wrote:

MagnusPrimal wrote:
Didn't the Walmart-exclusive MP Starscream cost $69.99?

I doubt there's any chance of this thing being that cheap, assuming Hasbro ever releases it here.

I think 20th Anniversary MP Prime from Hasbro was. I'm pretty sure SS was in the neighborhood of 47.99.

Did you find it on sale? I'm fairly certain mine was at least $60.

MagnusPrimal wrote:

DevastaTTor wrote:

MagnusPrimal wrote:
Didn't the Walmart-exclusive MP Starscream cost $69.99?

I doubt there's any chance of this thing being that cheap, assuming Hasbro ever releases it here.

I think 20th Anniversary MP Prime from Hasbro was. I'm pretty sure SS was in the neighborhood of 47.99.

Did you find it on sale? I'm fairly certain mine was at least $60.

WalMart Starscream was between $45.99 and $49.99 depending on the store you went to.

DevastaTTor wrote:So I understand all the disappointment about the size versus cost and all but can we really factor Prime in as part of the equation? He may still see production runs but his cost structure was originally set up years ago.

Sure, the Seekers are a closer comparison size wise, but I get this feeling that in order to keep costs down on them recently, they've picked a lower cost vendor that wound up costing them: Thundercracker=bad paint, reversed chest thrusters, etc. Additionally, they had a lot greater buying power initially on the Seekers knowing they could repaint the hell out of them.

And back to that Seeker to Grimlock comparison, Grimlock has got to contain more plastic than SS, TC, SW, I guess 20-30 percent more looking at arm size, leg size, etc. Between the materials cost difference there, the added gimmicks, and the extra accessories, that attributes for at least some of the higher cost. I'd probably guess that the rest all boils down to demand is probably lower so the cost per figure has actually gone up, much like we see with Deluxes, Leaders, etc. here in the US. I suspect because Takara can't order as many from its supplier, each Grimlock is winding up costing them more to produce.

In the end, if people want to send a message to Takara, don't buy him.

You're talking crazy talk. Simple economics - if the demand goes up, the price goes up. If the demand goes down, the price goes down. Don't be fooled with the idea of rising costs. This is profit driven. Where's CP with his economic charts?..

For years, Takara has been making their shipments in runs. The first run is typically small, to test the market and to keep the costs down. Everytime an important new figure comes out the stores only get a few at first. If it sells well, then they continue with more runs. All of the Masterpieces and now Alternity have been sold like this. Sometimes, they will even reissue the figure a year or two later, again, because the demand is there. Examples - MP 01, MP Ultra Magnus, MP Skywarp, and even many G1 figures.

MP Ultra Magnus was just reissued last fall along with MP Skywarp; each for $100. Now, MP Grimlock comes out and it's 40% higher and yet smaller. Another example - (4) Binaltechs came out last fall. Each sold for $50. The Alternity that is 1/2 the size is now retailing for $40.

This is not a rise in material costs, this is not a rise in labor costs. Material costs and labor costs have gone down because the world market is slowing down. Labor fees don't go up when people are looking for jobs. Material fees don't go up when factories are no longer demanding them. This is Takara looking smartly at the situation and realizing that they can charge more money.

If you're still not convinced - pretend that you are a sales/marketing person for Takara or Hasbro. You would notice the following:
1. Botcon exclusives sell out faster each year (despite the increased amounts made).
2. Exclusives are being bought at higher prices, and then sold in secondary markets like eBay for even higher prices.
3. MP 04 was selling for $500 2 years ago.
4. MP 02 sold for $300 when supplies began drying up (and he was a shelf warmer for several years, with a price tag of $50).
5. MP Megatron sold for $200+ as initial runs dried up.
6. Encores are selling hot despite price increases.
7. Henkei is also strong despite price increases.

Takara is making a bold attempt to get your money.

Stormrider wrote:Takara is making a bold attempt to get your money.

Totally agree.

They're in dangerous waters though. They're putting stress on a luxery market in difficult economic times.

Japanese business and markets never deal well with recessions and they start to adjust very slowly to changing markets.

I firmly believe that their business model is a year behind the times and is not going to change fast enough. The movie may buffer this situation...but it might not.

Stormrider wrote:

DevastaTTor wrote:So I understand all the disappointment about the size versus cost and all but can we really factor Prime in as part of the equation? He may still see production runs but his cost structure was originally set up years ago.

Sure, the Seekers are a closer comparison size wise, but I get this feeling that in order to keep costs down on them recently, they've picked a lower cost vendor that wound up costing them: Thundercracker=bad paint, reversed chest thrusters, etc. Additionally, they had a lot greater buying power initially on the Seekers knowing they could repaint the hell out of them.

And back to that Seeker to Grimlock comparison, Grimlock has got to contain more plastic than SS, TC, SW, I guess 20-30 percent more looking at arm size, leg size, etc. Between the materials cost difference there, the added gimmicks, and the extra accessories, that attributes for at least some of the higher cost. I'd probably guess that the rest all boils down to demand is probably lower so the cost per figure has actually gone up, much like we see with Deluxes, Leaders, etc. here in the US. I suspect because Takara can't order as many from its supplier, each Grimlock is winding up costing them more to produce.

In the end, if people want to send a message to Takara, don't buy him.

You're talking crazy talk. Simple economics - if the demand goes up, the price goes up. If the demand goes down, the price goes down. Don't be fooled with the idea of rising costs. This is profit driven. Where's CP with his economic charts?..

For years, Takara has been making their shipments in runs. The first run is typically small, to test the market and to keep the costs down. Everytime an important new figure comes out the stores only get a few at first. If it sells well, then they continue with more runs. All of the Masterpieces and now Alternity have been sold like this. Sometimes, they will even reissue the figure a year or two later, again, because the demand is there. Examples - MP 01, MP Ultra Magnus, MP Skywarp, and even many G1 figures.

MP Ultra Magnus was just reissued last fall along with MP Skywarp; each for $100. Now, MP Grimlock comes out and it's 40% higher and yet smaller. Another example - (4) Binaltechs came out last fall. Each sold for $50. The Alternity that is 1/2 the size is now retailing for $40.

This is not a rise in material costs, this is not a rise in labor costs. Material costs and labor costs have gone down because the world market is slowing down. Labor fees don't go up when people are looking for jobs. Material fees don't go up when factories are no longer demanding them. This is Takara looking smartly at the situation and realizing that they can charge more money.

If you're still not convinced - pretend that you are a sales/marketing person for Takara or Hasbro. You would notice the following:
1. Botcon exclusives sell out faster each year (despite the increased amounts made).
2. Exclusives are being bought at higher prices, and then sold in secondary markets like eBay for even higher prices.
3. MP 04 was selling for $500 2 years ago.
4. MP 02 sold for $300 when supplies began drying up (and he was a shelf warmer for several years, with a price tag of $50).
5. MP Megatron sold for $200+ as initial runs dried up.
6. Encores are selling hot despite price increases.
7. Henkei is also strong despite price increases.

Takara is making a bold attempt to get your money.

You and my wife must be conspiring against me. She regularly accuses me of speaking crazy talk.

First off, I'm not going to discount that Takara is probably playing with price structures in the same way that Hasbro is here in the US. But I think a lot of the points I've seen in this thread that are echoed in your response to me are all based around demand for a product after it's been produced and is on the market. I don't argue with any of your points about supply and demand there.

I'm basing my arguments around the manufacturing side of things-I'm currently in corporate training for manufacturing and sourcing so I can't help but think in these terms now.

While things certainly are down now causing massive deflation, we have to look back at the timeline for Grimlock. We first learned about him sometime early last year but didn't start getting concrete details about him until late Spring/early Summer. By late Summer/early fall, we were starting to see photos of first strikes of him emerge-the first grey plastic models. During this time, you've got Takara's Sourcing and Manufacturing team ramping up to produce him. (I'm guessing here on some of these details but they're probably fairly accurate). That means the Sourcing team over at Takara is signing the contracts for materials, securing the vendor/factory they'll have produce him, and getting all the logistics for shipping and distribution ironed out. But guess what, at this time, oil has reached an all time high, causing the price of everything you can think of to go up, especially a lot of the things that affect the manufacturing and distribution of a figure like this (Yeah, plastics aren't made out of the same stuff that goes into your car but it's a petroleum based material all the same). But in order to meet their production schedules, Takara has to go ahead and sign their contracts, in most cases, locking them into high pricing.

Also at this time, if they had their finger on the pulse of their business at all, the upper brass and financial team over at Takara is probably noticing the start of the economic slow down. Their overall sales number have started slipping a little causing them to wonder, "are we going to sell 100,000+ units of Grimlock when he's released in the Spring of next year, or 50,000 or less?" Logic dictates that if you have any doubts at all, you set the margin higher in order to cover future sales problems that may develop. If you can sell less for a higher cost on an item like this that already has a built in audience, you know you can at least cover your development and manufacturing costs.

So because of what they were experiencing at that time, Takara set a price point much higher than we've seen before in the hopes that they can offset the cost for developing, manufacturing, and distributing him.

You could also apply the logic above to the Alternity line. Trying to produce a Binaltech figure at or below the cost of what they were several years ago, Takara downsized them. And why would you put off manufacturing Alternity Megatron unless you wanted to see what demand for the first product from that line was and whether you could re-negotiate your manufacturing and distribution contracts for him.

The same logic can be applied to new Deluxe figures in Japan and in the US.

This is all just speculation on my part. But like i've said, I'm working in this world for a little while now and have recently seen the effects of massive fuel increases last year and the huge downturn at the very end of 2008 and the beginning of this year. In the end, I suspect that if Takara were manufacturing him this coming Summer, the price point may have been different.

And one point I can't help but make: in some cases, even when demand drops off, prices on an item can still go up. In the US, gas prices are creeping up more and more despite a big decline in demand. And that all can be traced back to production and manufacturing.

In the end, I just can't predict what's going to happen from here. Obviously the cost to develop and manufacture a figure like this has gone down. But unfortunately, so has the audience who can currently afford a figure like a MP. It'll be interesting to see how that affects the decision to produce more MP figures going forward, at least in the foreseeable future.

But who know, maybe Takara is indeed trying to milk us all out of more $. I doubt though that they're really want to alienate their core audience at home and abroad though.

PS-sorry for the crazy long response above. I have writer's cramp now.

for those who haven't seen it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm2nFUohd_w

he transformers quite similar to the original.
I do like the eye color change and the sword/gun gimmick

but those things just aren't enough to impress me.

I still think that MP Prime is the best.

DevastaTTor wrote:

Stormrider wrote:

DevastaTTor wrote:So I understand all the disappointment about the size versus cost and all but can we really factor Prime in as part of the equation? He may still see production runs but his cost structure was originally set up years ago.

Sure, the Seekers are a closer comparison size wise, but I get this feeling that in order to keep costs down on them recently, they've picked a lower cost vendor that wound up costing them: Thundercracker=bad paint, reversed chest thrusters, etc. Additionally, they had a lot greater buying power initially on the Seekers knowing they could repaint the hell out of them.

And back to that Seeker to Grimlock comparison, Grimlock has got to contain more plastic than SS, TC, SW, I guess 20-30 percent more looking at arm size, leg size, etc. Between the materials cost difference there, the added gimmicks, and the extra accessories, that attributes for at least some of the higher cost. I'd probably guess that the rest all boils down to demand is probably lower so the cost per figure has actually gone up, much like we see with Deluxes, Leaders, etc. here in the US. I suspect because Takara can't order as many from its supplier, each Grimlock is winding up costing them more to produce.

In the end, if people want to send a message to Takara, don't buy him.

You're talking crazy talk. Simple economics - if the demand goes up, the price goes up. If the demand goes down, the price goes down. Don't be fooled with the idea of rising costs. This is profit driven. Where's CP with his economic charts?..

For years, Takara has been making their shipments in runs. The first run is typically small, to test the market and to keep the costs down. Everytime an important new figure comes out the stores only get a few at first. If it sells well, then they continue with more runs. All of the Masterpieces and now Alternity have been sold like this. Sometimes, they will even reissue the figure a year or two later, again, because the demand is there. Examples - MP 01, MP Ultra Magnus, MP Skywarp, and even many G1 figures.

MP Ultra Magnus was just reissued last fall along with MP Skywarp; each for $100. Now, MP Grimlock comes out and it's 40% higher and yet smaller. Another example - (4) Binaltechs came out last fall. Each sold for $50. The Alternity that is 1/2 the size is now retailing for $40.

This is not a rise in material costs, this is not a rise in labor costs. Material costs and labor costs have gone down because the world market is slowing down. Labor fees don't go up when people are looking for jobs. Material fees don't go up when factories are no longer demanding them. This is Takara looking smartly at the situation and realizing that they can charge more money.

If you're still not convinced - pretend that you are a sales/marketing person for Takara or Hasbro. You would notice the following:
1. Botcon exclusives sell out faster each year (despite the increased amounts made).
2. Exclusives are being bought at higher prices, and then sold in secondary markets like eBay for even higher prices.
3. MP 04 was selling for $500 2 years ago.
4. MP 02 sold for $300 when supplies began drying up (and he was a shelf warmer for several years, with a price tag of $50).
5. MP Megatron sold for $200+ as initial runs dried up.
6. Encores are selling hot despite price increases.
7. Henkei is also strong despite price increases.

Takara is making a bold attempt to get your money.

You and my wife must be conspiring against me. She regularly accuses me of speaking crazy talk.

First off, I'm not going to discount that Takara is probably playing with price structures in the same way that Hasbro is here in the US. But I think a lot of the points I've seen in this thread that are echoed in your response to me are all based around demand for a product after it's been produced and is on the market. I don't argue with any of your points about supply and demand there.

I'm basing my arguments around the manufacturing side of things-I'm currently in corporate training for manufacturing and sourcing so I can't help but think in these terms now.

While things certainly are down now causing massive deflation, we have to look back at the timeline for Grimlock. We first learned about him sometime early last year but didn't start getting concrete details about him until late Spring/early Summer. By late Summer/early fall, we were starting to see photos of first strikes of him emerge-the first grey plastic models. During this time, you've got Takara's Sourcing and Manufacturing team ramping up to produce him. (I'm guessing here on some of these details but they're probably fairly accurate). That means the Sourcing team over at Takara is signing the contracts for materials, securing the vendor/factory they'll have produce him, and getting all the logistics for shipping and distribution ironed out. But guess what, at this time, oil has reached an all time high, causing the price of everything you can think of to go up, especially a lot of the things that affect the manufacturing and distribution of a figure like this (Yeah, plastics aren't made out of the same stuff that goes into your car but it's a petroleum based material all the same). But in order to meet their production schedules, Takara has to go ahead and sign their contracts, in most cases, locking them into high pricing.

Also at this time, if they had their finger on the pulse of their business at all, the upper brass and financial team over at Takara is probably noticing the start of the economic slow down. Their overall sales number have started slipping a little causing them to wonder, "are we going to sell 100,000+ units of Grimlock when he's released in the Spring of next year, or 50,000 or less?" Logic dictates that if you have any doubts at all, you set the margin higher in order to cover future sales problems that may develop. If you can sell less for a higher cost on an item like this that already has a built in audience, you know you can at least cover your development and manufacturing costs.

So because of what they were experiencing at that time, Takara set a price point much higher than we've seen before in the hopes that they can offset the cost for developing, manufacturing, and distributing him.

You could also apply the logic above to the Alternity line. Trying to produce a Binaltech figure at or below the cost of what they were several years ago, Takara downsized them. And why would you put off manufacturing Alternity Megatron unless you wanted to see what demand for the first product from that line was and whether you could re-negotiate your manufacturing and distribution contracts for him.

The same logic can be applied to new Deluxe figures in Japan and in the US.

This is all just speculation on my part. But like i've said, I'm working in this world for a little while now and have recently seen the effects of massive fuel increases last year and the huge downturn at the very end of 2008 and the beginning of this year. In the end, I suspect that if Takara were manufacturing him this coming Summer, the price point may have been different.

And one point I can't help but make: in some cases, even when demand drops off, prices on an item can still go up. In the US, gas prices are creeping up more and more despite a big decline in demand. And that all can be traced back to production and manufacturing.

In the end, I just can't predict what's going to happen from here. Obviously the cost to develop and manufacture a figure like this has gone down. But unfortunately, so has the audience who can currently afford a figure like a MP. It'll be interesting to see how that affects the decision to produce more MP figures going forward, at least in the foreseeable future.

But who know, maybe Takara is indeed trying to milk us all out of more $. I doubt though that they're really want to alienate their core audience at home and abroad though.

PS-sorry for the crazy long response above. I have writer's cramp now.

I was just kidding with crazy talk. You've explained your thoughts well. Although your wife and I have been conspiring.

You've made some good points; but I still think they are factoring in making a larger profit with the price increase.

If MP Grimlock sells very well, I am sure that Takara will keep this new price point. If it doesn't then this may be the start of the end.

Stormrider wrote:I was just kidding with crazy talk. You've explained your thoughts well. Although your wife and I have been conspiring.

You've made some good points; but I still think they are factoring in making a larger profit with the price increase.

If MP Grimlock sells very well, I am sure that Takara will keep this new price point. If it doesn't then this may be the start of the end.

I knew it!!!

It's probably a big combination of all of the points we've discussed. And you're absolutely correct, how Grimlock is received will determine how they price these going forward... and if the line is still viable for them.

I love these figures and what they represent but Thundercracker was a big let down for me with the QC issues. If Grimlock has similar issues or isn't well received because of his size, it could doom the future of the MP line. They're probably too expensive and too time consuming to develop to wind up as oversized peg warmers.

God I love the look of this toy, and it has been my plan from the start to get two, but being in Aus, thats going to cost me $375 without shipping! Holy gosh...

Is it worth it too have a grim in alt and robot mode...