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Sabrblade wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I mean what has been said about Primal's characterisation already brings to mind he has been shoehorned into one of the Prime archetypes and not who he actually is. He isn't supposed to be 'Prime: The Gorilla'. Bringing him down to that level does seem to be missing the essence of the character himself.

I can't think of a single Optimus Prime who has this much zest and excitement for life that he's willing to take more risks and bend more rules for better results.

If anything, this Optimus Primal is the living embodiment of the mantra "Sometimes crazy works!"

Animated Prime I believe is the Optimus literally everyone on the last few pages has mentioned direct comparison with. Also, ‘Crazy’ in that context is thinking outside the box. Not acting like Cheetor, who already has those character traits.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I mean what has been said about Primal's characterisation already brings to mind he has been shoehorned into one of the Prime archetypes and not who he actually is. He isn't supposed to be 'Prime: The Gorilla'. Bringing him down to that level does seem to be missing the essence of the character himself.

I can't think of a single Optimus Prime who has this much zest and excitement for life that he's willing to take more risks and bend more rules for better results.

If anything, this Optimus Primal is the living embodiment of the mantra "Sometimes crazy works!"

Animated Prime I believe is the Optimus literally everyone on the last few pages has mentioned direct comparison with.

For their AGES, not their personalities! Compared to New Primal, Animated Prime was a rule-abiding square. The only thing the two have in common is that they're both young guys just starting their respective careers.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Also, ‘Crazy’ in that context is thinking outside the box. Not acting like Cheetor, who already has those character traits.

And what did I just say about New Primal's mindset? Oh yeah, it was "outside-the-box way of thinking".

Anyway, hot-headed, risky and impulsive = Cheetor. Giving those traits to Primal basically makes Cheetor redundant. Much in the same way the emphasis on Nyx is pushing him into the background elsewhere.

So, by your logic, Optimus Primal has never been young, can never be young, and should never be young. He is only ever born as an middle-aged adult, already mature, and never has to grow up and learn to be a leader. And anything less than perfection from him is blasphemy. Got it.

Sabrblade wrote: He's young, he's green, and he's ready to boldly go where no Maximal has gone before. I definitely still heard Garry Chalk's voice coming out of him, but 1980s Garry Chalk rather than 1990s Garry Chalk.

That's not possible since there is no such thing as a 1980s Gary Chalk. He was born in the early 90s and came out as a middle aged man. There is no record of him prior to being Primal and that's corroborated on his tfwiki entry.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Anyway, hot-headed, risky and impulsive = Cheetor. Giving those traits to Primal basically makes Cheetor redundant. Much in the same way the emphasis on Nyx is pushing him into the background elsewhere.

I really think it's a bit nonsensical to write off this new series on an aspect of just one issue. I mean I had to give some kind of grade for review purposes but 1 issue isn't enough to write off any aspect about it, side from the art if one simply can't get past the style. I am curious of this take on Primal and it at least gives us something different. We can all judge it later if indeed it does not work or becomes a detriment to other characters.

I'm looking forward to seeing where all this goes, I'm a huge beast wars fan and I am glad this era is getting some more fiction for once, and from passionate creators too.

william-james88 wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Anyway, hot-headed, risky and impulsive = Cheetor. Giving those traits to Primal basically makes Cheetor redundant. Much in the same way the emphasis on Nyx is pushing him into the background elsewhere.

I really think it's a bit nonsensical to write off this new series on an aspect of just one issue. I mean I had to give some kind of grade for review purposes but 1 issue isn't enough to write off any aspect about it, side from the art if one simply can't get past the style. I am curious of this take on Primal and it at least gives us something different. We can all judge it later if indeed it does not work or becomes a detriment to other characters.

I'm looking forward to seeing where all this goes, I'm a huge beast wars fan and I am glad this era is getting some more fiction for once, and from passionate creators too.

He hasn't even read it yet.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Anyway, hot-headed, risky and impulsive = Cheetor. Giving those traits to Primal basically makes Cheetor redundant. Much in the same way the emphasis on Nyx is pushing him into the background elsewhere.

Except Cheetor's even more hotheaded, impulsive behavior could be used as a mirror to Primal's own and provide a motivation for him to start leading more responsibly. That would be some good character writing, methinks.

Sabrblade wrote:So, by your logic, Optimus Primal has never been young, can never be young, and should never be young. He is only ever born as an middle-aged adult, already mature, and never has to grow up and learn to be a leader. And anything less than perfection from him is blasphemy. Got it.

That doesn't even make sense in context as a reply.

william-james88 wrote:I really think it's a bit nonsensical to write off this new series on an aspect of just one issue.
I'm looking forward to seeing where all this goes, I'm a huge beast wars fan and I am glad this era is getting some more fiction for once,

Sabrblade wrote:He hasn't even read it yet.

Nor have I written it off. We're going to hurt ourselves jumping to conclusions...

william-james88 wrote:and from passionate creators too.

That however, remains to be seen. As I'm pretty sure those behind IDW 2.0 said similar.

JazZeke wrote:Except Cheetor's even more hotheaded, impulsive behavior could be used as a mirror to Primal's own and provide a motivation for him to start leading more responsibly. That would be some good character writing, methinks.

The thing is, it works for Cheetor because he is the youngest on the team. It is a weird take on Primal, because he is commander of his own ship and crew. For example, Star Trek TNG wouldn't have worked if Picard had the same characterisation as Wesley.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

william-james88 wrote:and from passionate creators too.

That however, remains to be seen. As I'm pretty sure those behind IDW 2.0 said similar.

this first Beast Wars issue is better than any issue from 2.0

Forgot to respond to these.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Though, a term that this comic uses incorrectly as a carryover from the older IDW Beast Wars comics is the use of "techno-organic" to describe the material that makes up their new beast modes. That term, as originally used on Beast Machines (where it was just "Technorganic"), is supposed to refer to a molecular blending of the organic with the technological as a distinctly different concept from what was used in Beast Wars. It's not right for it to be used in this case, as the Beast Wars bodies of the Maximals and Predacons are not techno-organic.

That continues to be an oddity within Beast Wars. Whereas it is specifically vocalised in Beast Machines, I always took the descriptive 'Techno-organic' to reference Transmetal 2. As that form is more of a blend than any of the others. But, that said. Without using that term, how do you describe their forms in Season One?

"Bio-mechanical" was the term used on the original toys' packaging. Though, Beast Machines pretty much grouped all of the Beast Wars body forms as different variations under the umbrella term of just "organic". I'd probably just call the Season 1 forms as robots merely wearing organic (or "imitation organic", I suppose) shells that aren't actually integrated into their inner structures like how the organic aspects of their technorganic bodies on Beast Machines were.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Sabrblade wrote: Dinobot's honorable nature is on point and sets up his eventual defection to the Maximals (which the author notes in his interview at the end of the issue will NOT be executed the same as it was in the show, meaning there's no telling how it will play out whenever it does happen).

To me, that says padding. It reminds me of The Walking Dead and how the character of Shane was handled in the original comic and unfortunately, within the TV adaptation. Or the last Robocop reboot. Wherein the lead actor remarked on how they would emphasise Murphy more than his alter ego aka The Titular Character.

A case of "We know what is going to happen. If you are still going to do it, don't drag it out and just get on with it."

It's not like the cartoon handled Dinobot's defection that gracefully either. If anything, the pilot rushed it so as to get the series' status quo sooner than later.

He starts off believing that Megatron led the Preds to the wrong planet and throws a hissy fit at his leader, disrespecting him like a child who doesn't get his way. In his disgrace, he huffs over to the Maximals and only decides to join them because of his petty vendetta with Megatron. He then spends much of the first season acting like Maximal Starscream until he finally moves past his pettiness later and grows to become the phenomenal character that he's remembered as being. But those early episode appearances of his did him no favors.

Conversely, this new Dinobot has been given no reasons to even think of betraying Megatron anytime soon because, so far, everything that's happened in this first issue has apparently gone all according to Megatron's plan. He tells his crew that the Golden Disk will lead them to an energon-rich planet, and that's exactly what happens. In the cartoon, Dinobot and Tarantulas were the only Predacons who knew of Megatron's true plan for the disk, but which seems to not be the case here.

If anything, it would make sense for Dinobot to remain a Predacon for a bit longer if there's going to be any promotional tie-in with the Kingdom line since Dinobot's Kingdom toy is being sold as a Predacon. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case since, according the interviews at the end of the issue, the decision to make this whole series a new take on the cartoon's premise seems to have come from on high at Hasbro for the sake of marketing consistency across the brand, meaning that any new Beast Wars comic couldn't have reinvented the wheel from the ground up even if they wanted to.

So, with the recycled cartoon premise having been an executive mandate, it's up to Burnham to take the story in whatever new directions he can within the confines of keeping things consistent for the brand. After all, Burnham mentioned that his original draft was "like 99% beat for beat" the same as the cartoon. Whereas the final version is riddled with tons of little differences in the details (the space battle's completely different, for one). He makes it clear that he wants to tell a new and different version of the story, but still has to adhere to what his bosses want from this series.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

JazZeke wrote:Except Cheetor's even more hotheaded, impulsive behavior could be used as a mirror to Primal's own and provide a motivation for him to start leading more responsibly. That would be some good character writing, methinks.

The thing is, it works for Cheetor because he is the youngest on the team. It is a weird take on Primal, because he is commander of his own ship and crew. For example, Star Trek TNG wouldn't have worked if Picard had the same characterisation as Wesley.

Picard was the captain of the fleet's flagship. Primal is seen here relegated to almost a punishment assignment for his behavior. It's not a fair comparison.

Sabrblade wrote:"Bio-mechanical" was the term used on the original toys' packaging. Though, Beast Machines pretty much grouped all of the Beast Wars body forms as different variations under the umbrella term of just "organic". I'd probably just call the Season 1 forms as robots merely wearing organic (or "imitation organic", I suppose) shells that aren't actually integrated into their inner structures like how the organic aspects of their technorganic bodies on Beast Machines were.

Beast Machines, sigh Always Beast Machines...

Sabrblade wrote:It's not like the cartoon handled Dinobot's defection that gracefully either. If anything, the pilot rushed it so as to get the series' status quo sooner than later.

He starts off believing that Megatron led the Preds to the wrong planet and throws a hissy fit at his leader, disrespecting him like a child who doesn't get his way. In his disgrace, he huffs over to the Maximals and only decides to join them because of his petty vendetta with Megatron. He then spends much of the first season acting like Maximal Starscream until he finally moves past his pettiness later and grows to become the phenomenal character that he's remembered as being. But those early episode appearances of his did him no favors.

Conversely, this new Dinobot has been given no reasons to even think of betraying Megatron anytime soon because, so far, everything that's happened in this first issue has apparently gone all according to Megatron's plan. He tells his crew that the Golden Disk will lead them to an energon-rich planet, and that's exactly what happens. In the cartoon, Dinobot and Tarantulas were the only Predacons who knew of Megatron's true plan for the disk, but which seems to not be the case here.

Exactly. I always took Dinobot's actions in the pilot was a flimsy pretence for a power grab. Trying to seize on an opportunity. Actions mirrored later with Primal in both the pilot and Chain of Command. Beyond that, within the context of his original characterisation, he never really did anything strictly Predacon, either. Whether that was by design also, in lieu of the original toy listing of "Maximal" with no mention of dual allegiance. However I will be interested to see if they make Dinobot do anything evil or indefinitely hesitate ala that Maximal guard.

Sabrblade wrote:If anything, it would make sense for Dinobot to remain a Predacon for a bit longer if there's going to be any promotional tie-in with the Kingdom line since Dinobot's Kingdom toy is being sold as a Predacon. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case since, according the interviews at the end of the issue, the decision to make this whole series a new take on the cartoon's premise seems to have come from on high at Hasbro for the sake of marketing consistency across the brand, meaning that any new Beast Wars comic couldn't have reinvented the wheel from the ground up even if they wanted to.

So, with the recycled cartoon premise having been an executive mandate, it's up to Burnham to take the story in whatever new directions he can within the confines of keeping things consistent for the brand. After all, Burnham mentioned that his original draft was "like 99% beat for beat" the same as the cartoon. Whereas the final version is riddled with tons of little differences in the details (the space battle's completely different, for one). He makes it clear that he wants to tell a new and different version of the story, but still has to adhere to what his bosses want from this series.

Naturally the meddling from Hasbro is the main difference between this book and the original show. But there is always a work around. The ending to Agenda Part 3 for example, offers exactly that.
This would offer up a potential 'groundhog day' premise of different/new characters trying to go back to key points in the show timeline to fix what Megatron did. That would still keep things such as time travel, the Golden Disk etc in the story, but allow things to be a lot more creative.

Conversely, the "99% beat for beat" script is not something I would have bought or wanted to read.

JazZeke wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

JazZeke wrote:Except Cheetor's even more hotheaded, impulsive behavior could be used as a mirror to Primal's own and provide a motivation for him to start leading more responsibly. That would be some good character writing, methinks.

The thing is, it works for Cheetor because he is the youngest on the team. It is a weird take on Primal, because he is commander of his own ship and crew. For example, Star Trek TNG wouldn't have worked if Picard had the same characterisation as Wesley.

Picard was the captain of the fleet's flagship. Primal is seen here relegated to almost a punishment assignment for his behavior. It's not a fair comparison.

The fact the "punishment" backstory had to be brought in to justify the new characterisation is strange in itself.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

JazZeke wrote:Except Cheetor's even more hotheaded, impulsive behavior could be used as a mirror to Primal's own and provide a motivation for him to start leading more responsibly. That would be some good character writing, methinks.

The thing is, it works for Cheetor because he is the youngest on the team. It is a weird take on Primal, because he is commander of his own ship and crew. For example, Star Trek TNG wouldn't have worked if Picard had the same characterisation as Wesley.

Picard was the captain of the fleet's flagship. Primal is seen here relegated to almost a punishment assignment for his behavior. It's not a fair comparison.

The fact the "punishment" backstory had to be brought in to justify the new characterisation is strange in itself.

...That's... that's just how writing works. You have an idea, you bring in plot devices to set it up. There's absolutely nothing strange about it.

Except when it is an idea/characterisation that already exist in someone else. Now it this had been a narrative focused on Cheetor, who was more trope than character in Season One, it actually would have been perfect. Using him as the POV would have also been an original take too.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Naturally the meddling from Hasbro is the main difference between this book and the original show.

Oh, Hasbro absolutely meddled in the original show. Primal's resurrection in Season 2's third episode, for instance, was a compromise between what Mainframe wanted vs. what Hasbro wanted. Mainframe wanted him to stay dead and not come back until the Season 2 finale, while Hasbro wanted him back immediately, as early as the first episode of Season 2, undermining the weight of his death in the Season 1 finale.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Conversely, the "99% beat for beat" script is not something I would have bought or wanted to read.

Yeah, he was not happy with that.

Sabrblade wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Naturally the meddling from Hasbro is the main difference between this book and the original show.

Oh, Hasbro absolutely meddled in the original show. Primal's resurrection in Season 2's third episode, for instance, was a compromise between what Mainframe wanted vs. what Hasbro wanted. Mainframe wanted him to stay dead and not come back until the Season 2 finale, while Hasbro wanted him back immediately, as early as the first episode of Season 2, undermining the weight of his death in the Season 1 finale.

Oh, I see. I'm thinking they likely meddled in all deaths. I knew about Tigerhawk (and Dinobot 2) already. Didn't know that about Primal. I wonder who Mainframe had in mind to replace him as the stopgap leader for Season 2? Let alone who else would have been the new crew member to balance out the Maximal ranks. Something we'll never know I imagine.

william-james88 wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

william-james88 wrote:and from passionate creators too.

That however, remains to be seen. As I'm pretty sure those behind IDW 2.0 said similar.

this first Beast Wars issue is better than any issue from 2.0

Can now confirm.

Years ago, there was a film called Batman Forever. As I loved the first two Batman films, Being around 11yo, I was a little obsessed with finding out every single fact I could about the third one. The problem with that? By the time the film came out, there were no surprises. Same thing with issue one. While the reviews over these pages were not very spoiler heavy. Simply by going over the broad strokes there really isn't anything more to it. I would have put this as a zero issue or FCBD giveaway. Not due to the quality of the book, but what its saying.

The art... Is the wrong fit for Beast Wars. The Beast Modes (Nyx and Megatron, in particular) are atrocious and hammer that home. By the same token, at the back of the book is some scale and reference guides to the Maximal and Predacon Cybertronian modes. Their feet of all things, really look bad.

Lastly, I'm gonna pull two lines from the interviews at the back, not focused on yet:

RE: Nyx and Skold

Burnham: We didn't want to wait until whenever Blackarachnia shows up to have female characters in the book.

Why? There doesn't seem an earnest reason for that. The two female leads of Beast Wars are two of the strongest in characterisation in Transformers. I doubt it was a mandate either.


However, a little further on, is likely the answer:

RE: Upcoming Issues

Burnham: ...or, no, maybe the first conversation between Dinobot and Nyx.

So, shipping then? That has ominous connotations on how Dinobot's story will be altered.

RE: Skold

she starts off as strong, but otherwise shy and looking for acceptance. Eventually, she's going to come out of her shell (pun intended) and I think, at that point, if we've done everything right, fans will cheer.

That sounds like latter IDWverse over humanising nonsense creeping in. Which makes me highly sceptical about where this book will go.

Ultimately, it was ok. Nothing amazing. It didn't give me the same vibe as the show still does. I can think of better ways the 25th anniversary could have been represented. But again, this is off to a better start than IDWverse 2.0. So I'll give the next issue a go, at least. 5/10

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:RE: Nyx and Skold

Burnham: We didn't want to wait until whenever Blackarachnia shows up to have female characters in the book.

Why? There doesn't seem an earnest reason for that. The two female leads of Beast Wars are two of the strongest in characterisation in Transformers. I doubt it was a mandate either.

Simple: To have female representation on both sides from the outset. Otherwise, it'd be an entirely male cast at the start of the series, and we apparently can't have that anymore in this day and age.

They couldn't put Airazor and Blackarachnia on the ships' crews, so they had to bring in new females to be there at the beginning. According to Burnham:

(No, Blackarachnia and Airazor weren't available from the jump. The answer to why is basically "because." No sarcasm, that's how it goes sometimes! And why did we start in such a similar place? Because those were elements asked to be included in issue 1!)

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:However, a little further on, is likely the answer:

RE: Upcoming Issues

Burnham: ...or, no, maybe the first conversation between Dinobot and Nyx.

So, shipping then? That has ominous connotations on how Dinobot's story will be altered.

How... How did you get "shipping" out of the word "conversation"? That's a huge leap in logic, there. Talking doesn't automatically mean romance.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:RE: Skold

she starts off as strong, but otherwise shy and looking for acceptance. Eventually, she's going to come out of her shell (pun intended) and I think, at that point, if we've done everything right, fans will cheer.

That sounds like latter IDWverse over humanising nonsense creeping in. Which makes me highly sceptical about where this book will go.

Character development is a bad thing? You don't want her to overcome her personal flaw by growing out of her shyness?

The cast of the original cartoon was extremely humanized as they were, feeling more like real people than cartoon characters.

Sabrblade wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:However, a little further on, is likely the answer:

RE: Upcoming Issues

Burnham: ...or, no, maybe the first conversation between Dinobot and Nyx.

So, shipping then? That has ominous connotations on how Dinobot's story will be altered.

How... How did you get "shipping" out of the word "conversation"? That's a huge leap in logic, there. Talking doesn't automatically mean romance.

Because of the emphasis. Listing it as they do, next to a Vok encounter, makes it seem like it will be a bigger deal than just a chat. Which brings Tigatron and Airazor to mind. Independently decent characters (well, more Tigatron than Airazor) but together, their only worthwhile interaction was becoming Tigerhawk.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:RE: Skold

she starts off as strong, but otherwise shy and looking for acceptance. Eventually, she's going to come out of her shell (pun intended) and I think, at that point, if we've done everything right, fans will cheer.

That sounds like latter IDWverse over humanising nonsense creeping in. Which makes me highly sceptical about where this book will go.

Sabrblade wrote:Character development is a bad thing? You don't want her to overcome her personal flaw by growing out of her shyness?

The cast of the original cartoon was extremely humanized as they were, feeling more like real people than cartoon characters.

The cartoon was humanised to a point. Because it didn't apply to everyone. MTMTE, LL etc took it to a ridiculous level, wherein they were basically not even robots anymore.

Character development in Beast Wars happened to those who needed it. Cheetor, from 'trope' to 'series lead' by BM. Blackarachnia, from 'interesting' to 'not' by Season 3. Stating that from the outset would say to me that Skold wasn't a strongly written character to begin with. By the same token, in the show, such a character would have been left as generic muscle, like Scorponok.

I love Beast Wars, it was literally the first Transformers media I ever encountered, I didn't even know that G1 existed when I watched the show as a kid. I thought all that Prime stuff was just made up to give the cartoon some weight. So I was a little wary of how this was going to go.

So far, I love the art style. I get it's not for everyone, but I'm very much liking it. There wasn't much story, but what was there was nice. Only Primal felt a little off, but that might be because I'm not used to seeing him young I guess.

I hope the writer goes crazy with the divergences. I get Hasbro mandated the starting point, but I hope they fulfill their promises and take this comic in a completely different direction to the one in the show. There's no point in just having a retelling of the same stuff.

I don't get the people who want a prequel or sequel or fill-in or whatever of the original show. It came out TWENTY FIVE YEARS AGO. It's over, it's gone. One of the story editors is dead, that's how over it is. We'll never get anything with the same feel again. So I'd rather have a totally different take on Beast Wars, than a bunch of fanfiction trying to fill in the show's many holes.

Edit: I realized the whole paragraph about sequels sounds a bit too absolute and categorical. What I mean is that I'm not interested in projects that expand upon the cast or plotlines of the original show, as those I feel were specific to the crew and circumstances who made it, so their feel can't really be replicated, and are sufficiently explored in the show. Little tidbits and bonuses like Theft of the Golden Disk are enough.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing fiction set in the same universe, but with a different cast and dealing with an unrelated event. Say, seeing the transition from Autobots/Decepticons to Maximals/Predacons, or Megatron taking control of Cybertron after escaping from the Maximals on the transwarp tunnel could be cool. Or just anything else using anyone else, set in the Maximal / Predacon time period. But nothing that is mainly about the show's cast and plots. And no more Golden Disks please, that was cool because it was novel then.

During his AMA session on Reddit, David Kaye did a rough "dramatic" reading of portions of this comic's first issue - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afa9RaxAfBk&t=1h2m55s

Just read it, my thoughts:

Not too happy about Primal's personality. I liked how in the original he was the only Maximal of the crew with actual military experience and had to be the more level headed character. Here he's basically what Cheetor was in the original.
I don't really agree with having a younger take, since the story takes place at the same time and in the same framework as the original. So keeping the personality in tact would have helped the book.

I'm not a fan of the art, I'm not hating it like I thought I would when they announced it, but it will take much getting used to.

I like that they included two new characters from the start, lets hope they're not there to be the opening story ark sacrificies how I think they will be.
The new Predacon looks like a cool concept and I would love a toy and art done by someone like E.J. Sue of her. Badass awesome Snapping Turtle mecha.

I too hope that the series will go continue down a different path, the seeds have already been sown for that, with them targeting Earth for instance.

Five-page preview for issue 2 - https://graphicpolicy.com/2021/03/02/preview-transformers-beast-wars-2/

Didn't expect to see the Vok show up so soon, but I can dig it.