The Energon Pub

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Rated X wrote:Seibertron,

I commend you for putting up these galleries. The bottom line is almost no one has the original Takara Dino cassettes. With that being said, it makes the KO Dino cassettes a hot item and a must have for G1 collectors. I encourage you to do more galleries of KO’s that were never intended to exist such as CHMS Rainmakers, Sunstorm, Purple Clone, Ghost Coneheads, KOLD Blue Konvoy, X-Transbots Bad Boy and Cobra Power Rat. While the molds might be KO’s the characters are not because they have been deemed unworthy of production by Hasbro. These are the galleries people want to see. Not galleries of stuff that is in Wal-Mart as we speak.

(...)
While I'm not against galleries of such KO's for informative purposes, it could come across as condoning them, which will definitely earn us Hasbro's wrath. Several online stores had to actually stop listing such items upon Hasbro's request (read: Cease and Desist Notice), and I'm sure nobody wants to be sued by any large company.

And stop acting like you know the fandom, because you don't.

Exactly what Jelze is saying.

And for the record: I am most certainly NOT interested in endless rows of galeries of variously colored KO's for any purposes. As far as I'm concerned just changing a color of plastic granules in a mold does not a new toy make (whatever fancy name you give it to push it to 'less discriminating fans'), especially if the manufactorer is not even the original designer / licensed producer of said toy. I barely accept official repaints, actually, but understand they are needed to up new product and to 'dilute' R&D costs. For a KO-producer to do the same (with current molds!) is just plain robbery.

I'll be honest, I have the KO Headmasters set, which severly impressed me, and I also have Dairu and Zauru, which are barely acceptable, QC-wise (and turned me off ordering the remaining two Japanese Dino-cassettes). But they all have been molds (not just recolors) that are no longer in use and for which fan demand was always pretty high.

Not galleries of stuff that is in Wal-Mart as we speak.

Uh...I do.

I love the comparison shots, and seeing good pictures. They speak for themselves usually. It's a great way to help me decide if I should get something or not.

Screamfleet wrote:

Not galleries of stuff that is in Wal-Mart as we speak.

Uh...I do.

I love the comparison shots, and seeing good pictures. They speak for themselves usually. It's a great way to help me decide if I should get something or not.

Exactly.
And, oh yeah, it might be galeries of 'stuff that is in Wal-Mart as we speak', but considering the nearest Wal-Mart to my house (in Ellsworth, ME) is, oohhh, about 5.228 kilometers west of my home town in Europe, that's still a problem.

Rated X wrote: These are the galleries people want to see. Not galleries of stuff that is in Wal-Mart as we speak.

Speak for yourself, but don't presume to speak for others. I often use Seibertron's galleries to help me decide which current figures to buy.

GuyIncognito wrote:

Rated X wrote: These are the galleries people want to see. Not galleries of stuff that is in Wal-Mart as we speak.

Speak for yourself, but don't presume to speak for others. I often use Seibertron's galleries to help me decide which current figures to buy.

Me too. But I use them to decide on which expensive figures to import. I dont use them to decide on $12.99 purchases. Just throw it in the cart with your groceries and take a shot in the dark. It wont bankrupt you.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Rated X wrote:Seibertron,

I commend you for putting up these galleries. The bottom line is almost no one has the original Takara Dino cassettes. With that being said, it makes the KO Dino cassettes a hot item and a must have for G1 collectors. I encourage you to do more galleries of KO’s that were never intended to exist such as CHMS Rainmakers, Sunstorm, Purple Clone, Ghost Coneheads, KOLD Blue Konvoy, X-Transbots Bad Boy and Cobra Power Rat. While the molds might be KO’s the characters are not because they have been deemed unworthy of production by Hasbro. These are the galleries people want to see. Not galleries of stuff that is in Wal-Mart as we speak.

And I must commend you on your guts

While I'm not against galleries of such KO's for informative purposes, it could come across as condoning them, which will definitely earn us Hasbro's wrath. Several online stores had to actually stop listing such items upon Hasbro's request (read: Cease and Desist Notice), and I'm sure nobody wants to be sued by any large company.

And stop acting like you know the fandom, because you don't.

I know you.

People get all touchy on these forums, but when the beer comes out at Botcon were all one big happy family.

Heres a question for everyone that is not on Hasbro's payroll:


Lump of plastic A: Was officially sanctioned by Mr. Hasbro himself

Lump of plastic B: Made from the same plastic, stored in they same style of tub, but officially sanctioned by some random Chinese guy.


Which lump of plastic would you buy ???


Hasbro didnt create Transformers, they bought into it back into 1984. They are not gods, just businessmen. They dont care about us fans, so what up with the obsession some fans have with Hasbro ???

I'd rather see more 3rd party presence here than KO presence. At least 3rd parties have their own unique molds.

But the Dinocassettes are just about a necessary evil. They're too rare/expensive to ever see a legit presence in most people's collections.

Rated X wrote:Heres a question for everyone that is not on Hasbro's payroll:


Lump of plastic A: Was officially sanctioned by Mr. Hasbro himself

Lump of plastic B: Made from the same plastic, stored in they same style of tub, but officially sanctioned by some random Chinese guy.


Which lump of plastic would you buy ???


Hasbro didnt create Transformers, they bought into it back into 1984. They are not gods, just businessmen. They dont care about us fans, so what up with the obsession some fans have with Hasbro ???

A better question would be this:

"How would you consider a person who copies toy designs and sells them at a much lower cost than the original product, even though the quality would be the same?"

Screamfleet wrote:

Not galleries of stuff that is in Wal-Mart as we speak.

Uh...I do.

I love the comparison shots, and seeing good pictures. They speak for themselves usually. It's a great way to help me decide if I should get something or not.

I can assure all of you that I generally know what types of toys people want to see galleries of most ... all I have to do is look at the past 8.25 years of traffic logs from these 2,600+ galleries.

What's always hot? Galleries of new Deluxe class figures, followed by Voyagers and Leaders. It actually follows Hasbro's sales patterns, at least according to them (they said that the deluxe class size is the #1 selling size class of Transformers toys).

What's not hot? Toys like Battle Ops Bumblebee and Legends class figures. Always surprised about the poor performance of Legends class figures since they seem to sell very well. My theory about that is the Legends must appeal to a more general audience than the more collector oriented community that visits Seibertron.com. Items like Robot Heroes, Mighty Muggs, figurines, etc ... those galleries do terrible. I feel like the search engines spider more pages than you guys look at for galleries like those.

Galleries of older figures don't perform as well either, which is why I usually always focus on galleries that are relevant to what's currently in the market. Case in point: Noizu's gallery has only been viewed 1,000 times after being posted for two days. Encore Soundblaster's gallery has only been viewed 3,230 times after being posted for a week. Cyberverse Megatron's gallery has been viewed 5,582 times after being posted for 11 days. TFP RID Ratchet's gallery has been viewed 9,785 times after 13 days. Surprisingly, TFP RID Arcee's gallery has been viewed 13,967 times after 13 days (far outpacing her casemate Ratchet's gallery). The data from Ratchet and Arcee helps me understand why we received a First Edition Arcee and not a First Edition Ratchet ... Arcee is a more popular character in the current cartoon.

The only 3rd party products that have done well have been the ones that I got a month or two in advance of when you guys could get them. I had the world exclusive first galleries on Fans Project's City Commander and Bruticus, and I might have had it on Protector but I'd have to double check the dates.

You guys should take a peak through the galleries of what's been hot and what's not through the last 8 years.

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/toys/galleries/popular/


Regardless of where Hasbro stands on all of this, I know where I stand on all of the KO and 3rd party stuff. It's not my thing. It's unofficial product. If you guys like it, that's great. That's Hasbro's business to figure out where to draw the line, not mine. I am not here to guilt anyone about it like some do. If Hasbro really wanted to draw a line in the sand, they could easily do it simply by telling the major online retailers to either stop selling the 3rd party products or they'll stop supplying them with legit products. Problem solved. But they haven't, they've left the water muddied.

Rated X wrote:Heres a question for everyone that is not on Hasbro's payroll:


Lump of plastic A: Was officially sanctioned by Mr. Hasbro himself

Lump of plastic B: Made from the same plastic, stored in they same style of tub, but officially sanctioned by some random Chinese guy.


Which lump of plastic would you buy ???


Hasbro didnt create Transformers, they bought into it back into 1984. They are not gods, just businessmen. They dont care about us fans, so what up with the obsession some fans have with Hasbro ???

They DID create Transformers. All they bought were the rights to use some "transforming robots" however they saw fit. Between them and Marvel, who they hired to help come up with a story about "The Transformers", they came up with the compelling story and characters with which we all know and love. If it wasn't for Hasbro, there would just be non-sentient transforming robot toys with no characters, factions, personal stories, etc. Yes, Hasbro has done good business over the years. That's how you stay in business. I would beg to differ that they do care about us fans, but they must also be loyal to their shareholders and to the bottom line. Finding the happy medium is a tough thing to do. I'd say after collecting this line for 28 years that they've done a bang up job of doing just that.

Encore Soundblaster's gallery has only been viewed 3,230 times after being posted for a week. TFP RID Ratchet's gallery has been viewed 9,785 times after 13 days.

What I find interesting about this is is, well, how I fall into it.

I've looked at the Encore Soundblaster gallery, but I have not ordered him and I'm still holding off. I have yet to view TFP RID Ratchet's gallery, but I know when I see him I'll get him.

So, I've yet to really accurately review a toy I'm planning on purchasing. I guess the price is a factor. Ratchet is an easy pick up, but soundblaster isn't.

I should add that most of the pageviews a gallery receives are from the first week. After that, it's just a numbers and waiting game.

Seibertron wrote:

Rated X wrote:Heres a question for everyone that is not on Hasbro's payroll:


Lump of plastic A: Was officially sanctioned by Mr. Hasbro himself

Lump of plastic B: Made from the same plastic, stored in they same style of tub, but officially sanctioned by some random Chinese guy.


Which lump of plastic would you buy ???


Hasbro didnt create Transformers, they bought into it back into 1984. They are not gods, just businessmen. They dont care about us fans, so what up with the obsession some fans have with Hasbro ???

They DID create Transformers. All they bought were the rights to use some "transforming robots" however they saw fit. Between them and Marvel, who they hired to help come up with a story about "The Transformers", they came up with the compelling story and characters with which we all know and love. If it wasn't for Hasbro, there would just be non-sentient transforming robot toys with no characters, factions, personal stories, etc. Yes, Hasbro has done good business over the years. That's how you stay in business. I would beg to differ that they do care about us fans, but they must also be loyal to their shareholders and to the bottom line. Finding the happy medium is a tough thing to do. I'd say after collecting this line for 28 years that they've done a bang up job of doing just that.

I give Takara all the credit for inventing the “Transformers” concept under the Diaclone line. I admit, Hasbro did give them personalities and names. Hasbro bought into a dull Japanese line and gave it that much needed American swagger. But Hasbro contracted other companies to create the characters. Marvel and Sunbow Productions are responsible for the characters we know and love. Hasbro just footed the bill for the artists and writers. I don’t credit the investors for doing anything else but investing. And for most of the G1 years, it was the Japanese that were inventing the molds. Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t the G1 Hasbro versions made in Asian factories too? What did Hasbro do in the 80’s other than play the corporate role? Now we have Americans designing molds side by side with Takara as the Botcon panels show. But not in the 80’s. Back then the Japanese did all the designing. I wouldn’t be surprised if some 3rd party company designers are defectors from the Has/Tak production teams of the 90’s when Transformers took a nosedive.

As far as my “lump of plastic” analogy, It all boils down to who your allegiance is with. My allegiance is with the actual characters. Not the investors that own rights. The characters will live forever in our hearts no matter who owns the rights or makes toys in their images.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Rated X wrote:Heres a question for everyone that is not on Hasbro's payroll:


Lump of plastic A: Was officially sanctioned by Mr. Hasbro himself

Lump of plastic B: Made from the same plastic, stored in they same style of tub, but officially sanctioned by some random Chinese guy.


Which lump of plastic would you buy ???


Hasbro didnt create Transformers, they bought into it back into 1984. They are not gods, just businessmen. They dont care about us fans, so what up with the obsession some fans have with Hasbro ???

A better question would be this:

"How would you consider a person who copies toy designs and sells them at a much lower cost than the original product, even though the quality would be the same?"

Well the quality part of the question is debatable. There are crappy KO’s and high quality KO’s. The dino cassettes would fall under the high quality category along with CHMS, Kold, X-Transbot, and those really nice G1 KO’s. The fact that all KO news on this site is titled “BUYER’S BEWARE” is an unintended compliment to how good the quality is on some of these KO’s. If they were such s**t, would you really need to warn people what to look for to identify the KO versions ??? Sure they suffer some QC control issues just like their Hasbro counterparts. The original Takara MP Rodimus had tons of QC issues all at the hands of Takara. And wasn’t Hasbro the inventor of “Gold Plastic Syndrome” in the 90’s ??? Don’t put Hasbro or Takara on a pedestal of perfection. And do give KO companies credit when they match the quality of the original or come 98% close to matching it.

Now, on to the “much lower cost” part of your question. The answer is really quite simple:

What do we as Americans always complain about ???

Answer: Prices

Whether it’s cheaper gas, unlimited cell phone plans, fast food value menus, refilling HP ink cartridges, Black Friday shopping deals, etc., we are always looking to get more bang for our buck. So if I can get more or less the same figure for less money, why wouldn’t I ???

That my friend, is the American way.


As far as copying the toy designs, once again that is debatable. If Hasbro made the figures readily available for those who want them, there would be no reason to KO them. That’s the case with the dino cassettes. Same thing with the “unofficial” Rainmakers and Sunstorm made by CHMS. Hasbro knew fans wanted them, but they were too busy making Bumblebee figures. They snooze, they lose. If as many die hard “Hasbro only” fans exist as you believe, then why was CHMS so successful ???


CHMS gave the fans what they wanted for a great price. That’s what us Americans cant get enough of…More for less.

Hope I answered your question from my honest perspective.

Sabrblade wrote:

Rated X wrote:Hasbro didnt create Transformers, they bought into it back into 1984.

No, they bought toy molds belonging to Diaclone and Micro Change. Hasbro created the Transformers franchise via a rebranding of non-TF Takara toys and tasking Marvel Comics with coming up with the story and characters under Hasbro's license. Transformers is Hasbro's baby, not Takara's. In fact, Japan didn't get Transformers until 1985, one whole year after the U.S.

Youre right about everything except one small detail my friend:

Hasbro didnt outright buy the diaclone molds from Takara. They bought the right to use the Takara molds to create their own repainted versions known as "Transformers". The molds kept coming out of Japan and Takara never sold their rights completely to Hasbro. That is why we have "Encore" releases of G1 molds from Takara only available in Japan. Hasbro gets zero profit from them.

Rated X wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Rated X wrote:Heres a question for everyone that is not on Hasbro's payroll:


Lump of plastic A: Was officially sanctioned by Mr. Hasbro himself

Lump of plastic B: Made from the same plastic, stored in they same style of tub, but officially sanctioned by some random Chinese guy.


Which lump of plastic would you buy ???


Hasbro didnt create Transformers, they bought into it back into 1984. They are not gods, just businessmen. They dont care about us fans, so what up with the obsession some fans have with Hasbro ???

A better question would be this:

"How would you consider a person who copies toy designs and sells them at a much lower cost than the original product, even though the quality would be the same?"

Well the quality part of the question is debatable. There are crappy KO’s and high quality KO’s. The dino cassettes would fall under the high quality category along with CHMS, Kold, X-Transbot, and those really nice G1 KO’s. The fact that all KO news on this site is titled “BUYER’S BEWARE” is an unintended compliment to how good the quality is on some of these KO’s. If they were such s**t, would you really need to warn people what to look for to identify the KO versions ??? Sure they suffer some QC control issues just like their Hasbro counterparts. The original Takara MP Rodimus had tons of QC issues all at the hands of Takara. And wasn’t Hasbro the inventor of “Gold Plastic Syndrome” in the 90’s ??? Don’t put Hasbro or Takara on a pedestal of perfection. And do give KO companies credit when they match the quality of the original or come 98% close to matching it.

Now, on to the “much lower cost” part of your question. The answer is really quite simple:

What do we as Americans always complain about ???

Answer: Prices

Whether it’s cheaper gas, unlimited cell phone plans, fast food value menus, refilling HP ink cartridges, Black Friday shopping deals, etc., we are always looking to get more bang for our buck. So if I can get more or less the same figure for less money, why wouldn’t I ???

That my friend, is the American way.


As far as copying the toy designs, once again that is debatable. If Hasbro made the figures readily available for those who want them, there would be no reason to KO them. That’s the case with the dino cassettes. Same thing with the “unofficial” Rainmakers and Sunstorm made by CHMS. Hasbro knew fans wanted them, but they were too busy making Bumblebee figures. They snooze, they lose. If as many die hard “Hasbro only” fans exist as you believe, then why was CHMS so successful ???


CHMS gave the fans what they wanted for a great price. That’s what us Americans cant get enough of…More for less.

Hope I answered your question from my honest perspective.

First of, I give credit where it's due, undeserved or not. From your examples, that includes:

- KO's matching the quality of the real thing, undeserved it may be.
- Companies that tackle QC problems, like MP-9 Rodimus Convoy ver. 2, Hasbro no longer using the formula that results in GPS (for the most part) and even TFC amending problems with Hercules

Anyway, the casual buyer is not as savvy about such matters as we fans are, as they don't look for clues. Let's face it, they wouldn't know they have to watch out for bootlegs to begin with, let alone what clues give the bootleg away. Let me add there are far more, FAR more inferior bootlegs than there are high quality ones.

Not gonna argue about prices, because I'm a born Dutch, and thus a cheapskate

And copying is still copying, no matter how much you try and justify it from a marketing perspective. Hell, from any perspective really. Hasbro may know we want characters like the Rainmakers and Sunstorm, but if they'd serve the fans and only the fans the company would go belly up. That's the cold hard truth, and Hasbro knows that. CHMS fills a niche for fans, I admit, but the fact they never asked for any license for any mold puts them, from my point of view, in a bad daylight.

It seems the general motto is "Reward the good, reward the bad, as long they continue to serve us"

It's laughable that people have to defend Hasbro's right to the TFs here. So .... they get no credit at all for hiring Marvel or Sunbrow to tell stories about their toys? For okaying the bios and asking for creative changes along the way? They get no credit or blame for the events of the Transformers movie, which was made, basically, to shift from one toyline to the next? They get no credit for even including bios for the toys, which form the basis for every single story that has come since? For choosing which transforming toy would become a TF (we would never have Jetfire were it not for Hasbro!).

Never mind that toys since the original Diaclones have been joint ventures, especially today!

Credit where credit's due: Hasbro owns the rights to the Transformers and, whether you like it or not, they have been instrumental in shaping the brand. Even by just "okaying" bios and demanding shifts in stories to sell toys, they have shaped the franchise into something that has stayed with us for years.

As for KOs, justify it as you will, they are copying already existing toys. I'll buy whatever I feel like, but I'm not going to put them up on some pedestal. They're hardly doing it for the fans ... they're doing it to make a buck! Just like the Hasbro and Takara execs. Let's not kid ourselves, they aren't Robin Hood. They make VASTLY overpriced KOs with obvious flaws and sell them to people who buy them for profit. In the case of G1 KOs, they try to TRICK people into buying them; they package them hoping they'll be mistaken for genuine G1s. And that's not cool. So I'll buy KOs whenever I feel like it, but ... I won't put them up on a pedestal. They buyer SHOULD beware when someone tries to pass off a KO for a genuine article; the buyer should get EXACTLY what they paid for.

Well to close this out, Ill leave you all with this...

Hasbro doesnt care about the characters I want to add to my shelf, so I dont care about the money Hasbro wants to add to it's pocket.

That is why I support KO's.

If I want a toy and for whatever reason have to settle for a not-so-good copy, I'll support KOs.

I was almost shocked to notice mention of marvel comics and hasbro's joint venture on creating what we know today as Transformers. I can't tell you how many times I've been chewed out by a "true transformers fan" that insisted that the only name a Transformer can go by is the Japanese one (I have been kicked out of a chat room for not calling Optimus "Convoy")and that all Transformers lore and creation was centered in Japan. Yes, they made the toys that made this possible...but not the characters we know and love. The originals had cockpits for pilots because they were simply mechs and not much more. And while on that thought...does anyone else feel that masterforce was sort of a revist to those times with transtector bodies that required headmasters and godmasters?

Anyways sorry to get of topic. As for KOs...All I have ever wanted, was a legion of official Transformers. That said, many characters and opportunities of been ignored (as a seeker collector I'm practically livid over acidstorm being the only one of his rainmaker team to be released). That said, I typically only buy KOs of figures you can't get anywhere else, or of figures that are so expensive it defies logic. For example, WST figures like Soundblaster or Ultra Magnus (I mean c'mon you release a mini g1 ultra magnus and make sure he's rare, and thus expensive as hell in the aftermarket, can anyone be surprised he got the KO treatment?). As long as a KO company doesn't try to pass their item off as the real thing and doesn't charge insane prices for it I'm on board. And I am a little ashamed to say that KO sunstreaker will join my ranks soon, but only because every sunstreaker I bought used was in terrible condition up close (and I can't justify his nib price), and while Sideswipe has had reissues, WST, and now a masterpiece release, there isn't any Sunstreaker love on the horizon. And any KO I buy WILL be replaced if and when an affordable official version is found.

Rated X wrote:

Seibertron wrote:

Rated X wrote:Heres a question for everyone that is not on Hasbro's payroll:


Lump of plastic A: Was officially sanctioned by Mr. Hasbro himself

Lump of plastic B: Made from the same plastic, stored in they same style of tub, but officially sanctioned by some random Chinese guy.


Which lump of plastic would you buy ???


Hasbro didnt create Transformers, they bought into it back into 1984. They are not gods, just businessmen. They dont care about us fans, so what up with the obsession some fans have with Hasbro ???

They DID create Transformers. All they bought were the rights to use some "transforming robots" however they saw fit. Between them and Marvel, who they hired to help come up with a story about "The Transformers", they came up with the compelling story and characters with which we all know and love. If it wasn't for Hasbro, there would just be non-sentient transforming robot toys with no characters, factions, personal stories, etc. Yes, Hasbro has done good business over the years. That's how you stay in business. I would beg to differ that they do care about us fans, but they must also be loyal to their shareholders and to the bottom line. Finding the happy medium is a tough thing to do. I'd say after collecting this line for 28 years that they've done a bang up job of doing just that.

I give Takara all the credit for inventing the “Transformers” concept under the Diaclone line. I admit, Hasbro did give them personalities and names. Hasbro bought into a dull Japanese line and gave it that much needed American swagger. But Hasbro contracted other companies to create the characters. Marvel and Sunbow Productions are responsible for the characters we know and love. Hasbro just footed the bill for the artists and writers. I don’t credit the investors for doing anything else but investing. And for most of the G1 years, it was the Japanese that were inventing the molds. Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t the G1 Hasbro versions made in Asian factories too? What did Hasbro do in the 80’s other than play the corporate role? Now we have Americans designing molds side by side with Takara as the Botcon panels show. But not in the 80’s. Back then the Japanese did all the designing. I wouldn’t be surprised if some 3rd party company designers are defectors from the Has/Tak production teams of the 90’s when Transformers took a nosedive.

As far as my “lump of plastic” analogy, It all boils down to who your allegiance is with. My allegiance is with the actual characters. Not the investors that own rights. The characters will live forever in our hearts no matter who owns the rights or makes toys in their images.

Are you planted here from Mattel? You tend to trash Hasbro excessively. Your posts would be intersting to read if you could post facts to back up your arguments. You tend to stretch ideas without any evidence.


Example:

Hasbro just footed the bill for the artists and writers. I don’t credit the investors for doing anything else but investing. And for most of the G1 years, it was the Japanese that were inventing the molds.

How do you know this? How do you know what Hasbro's role was ; what Takara's role was? I wouldn't be so critical but you then take this unverified information and treat it like fact and then trample all over Hasbro with the hopes of getting other people to side with you. I don't understand your logic and how you have grown such a loathing for hasbro.

Oh wait, now I understand....

Rated X wrote:Hasbro doesnt care about the characters I want to add to my shelf