The Energon Pub

Lycantendencies wrote:Neither Armada, Energon, nor Cybertron were G1 coninuity based.

Armada was indended to be. Last minute alterations to the overall plot scheme took that away. The toys had already been designed and planned at that point.

Energon and Cybertron had more G1 homages than anything ever before. Throw in Universe to the mix and we still didn't end up with a whole set of Armada trilogy seekers anywhere in the mix.

In G1, the seekers were a trio, the coneheads were too.

When we look at G1 based Robotmasters, reissues, MP Skywarp's box, the seekers are a trio.
It's just how HasTak usually treat them.

The coneheads are similar, with them always being a slight retool.
Once again, this is G1 continuity based, and the thee coneheads are all established characters.

Everyone knows this. Hence the outcry to begin with...

This is Hasbro. They release retools and repaints all the time, sometimes without it even being a new character.
Then along comes a set where retools are not only accepted but expected, and usually delivered, and then change their entire policy.

Who would expect that?

But they don't release 6 of something. Two, three...sure. Sometimes we see four (Armada Sideswipe, RiD car brothers), but those are split across liness. Apparently even Hasbro draws a line somewhere.

Hasbro are intelligent people. They create Classics, based on G1 and aimed at people who already know the characters.
Many of them sit there with Starscream and spare oney complaining about not having Skywarp (sold solo) or Thundercracker whilst Starscream warmed shelves everywhere.

Similar story for Ramjet and the coneheads.

That's a stupid decision even for Hasbro.

I don't know...BotCon was really, really successful due to the seeker package. They sold out a month ahead of time. The 2k5 box set can still be bought off their website. Maybe they did make the right financial/promotional decision.

Now, who elese here wants a nice Sunstorm released at retail? Wouldn't that be nice?

I'll tell ya one thing though. Throw a Classics Sunstorm and/or ghost SS at us for Botcon 08 and it will be just as big of a success as 07 was. Seekers are irresistable.

Bonger wrote:I'll tell ya one thing though. Throw a Classics Sunstorm and/or ghost SS at us for Botcon 08 and it will be just as big of a success as 07 was. Seekers are irresistable.

I'd slap someone else's mama just to get one.

How about a Ghost of Starscream as the attendee only freebie, making it even harder to get! You could hear a thousand geeks scream in terror! Poor Obi-Wan wouldn't know what hit him!

Geekee1 wrote:It seems to me that it is a "stupid decision" only on the fans end of things. I don't think the execs at Hasbro are crying in their beer about a missed opportunity on one figure.

Well, if you live in a simplified world where only one extreme or the other counts, yes.

But realistically, any decision the leads to less money, whether it hits the company a little or a lot, is stupid.

As you say...

Geekee1 wrote:It seems to me that it is a "stupid decision" only on the fans end of things.

In this case, the fans are the target audience.
They are the consumers. Companies exist to supply consumer demand and get their money as a result.

The company spent money on molds and then, instead of meeting consumer demand, produced these molds in only two favours, and as a result, have them warm shelves, whilst the consumer held on to their money or spent it elsewhere.

1 Deluxe seeker costs $10, $20 - $30 in the UK, similar in Europe and Australia.
If globally, just 5,000 people didn't buy a repaint solely because Hasbro didn't release it, that's a hell fo a missed opportunity.

If the same 5,000 didn't buy two retools, that number triples.
Combined with the money lost on producing extra needless Starscreams and Ramjets instead, it looks even worse.

And as they packaged Skywarp with a white Prime few wanted, many consumer held off till it was reduced, cutting their profit on the only repaint they release.

And should Takara release the extra figures and just 2,000 of Hasbro's customers pay up to $30, maybe $40 per figure when they could be spending it on Hasbro products, that's more potential money lost.

That's not good business.

Counterpunch wrote:Armada was indended to be. Last minute alterations to the overall plot scheme took that away.

Intended or not, it was, as you say, not.
We weren't given a G1 trio of seekers or coneheads in the show, so there was no reason at all to make the toys.

Counterpunch wrote:But they don't release 6 of something.

They did during G1. They did with PVCs, statues etc.

No one (hopefully) would expect them all to be released at the same time, but Classics was released in two waves.

We could have had wave one give us Starscream and Ramjet, wave two give us Skywarp and Thrust and then maybe a store type two pack with Thundercracker and Dirge a few months later.

Alternatively, they could have released Starscream in wave one, a Robotmasters Skywarp/Thundercrakcer two pack in place of the SW/Magnus pack, and repated for wave two.

Or they could have delivered Starscream, Skywarp and TC throughout wave one and two, and left the coneheads for the Botcon set.

After all, it's not just the fact they're 'con exclusives that fire people up, it's that the Botcon "set" is not a self contained set as most Botcon sets are, it's figures from two established sets (seekers and coneheads) that people started to collect in the main line

Counterpunch wrote:I don't know...BotCon was really, really successful due to the seeker package. They sold out a month ahead of time. The 2k5 box set can still be bought off their website. Maybe they did make the right financial/promotional decision.

No doubt it was a success for Botcon, but as a financial/promotional decision for Hasbro, not so much.

Financially, there are a lot of people who would have bought them who didn't.

And all Hasbro promoted was the fact they'd happily sell part of a set the world over, but will then just abandon it, leaving the consumer forced to rely on an expensive specialist to complete the set.

Personally, I don't like the Classic's seekers, but I do buy some Classics.
However, as a result of this, I know that if they would release two or three characters that are known or have appeal for being part of a set, like Constructicons, Dinobots or Wreckers, chances are I'd have to pick the rest up at ridiculous international prices when the next Botcon set comes out, and I'm going to walk away without buying any of them.

Three figures is still just a drop in the well for them. They are not hurting financially because of it.

Geekee1 wrote:Three figures is still just a drop in the well for them. They are not hurting financially because of it.

Which doesn't make this statement any less true:

Lycantendencies wrote:any decision the leads to less money, whether it hits the company a little or a lot, is stupid.

Decisions that make more money = smart.
Decisions that make less = stupid.

Lycantendencies wrote:

Geekee1 wrote:Three figures is still just a drop in the well for them. They are not hurting financially because of it.

Which doesn't make this statement any less true:

Lycantendencies wrote:any decision the leads to less money, whether it hits the company a little or a lot, is stupid.

Decisions that make more money = smart.
Decisions that make less = stupid.

There is the flaw in your argument.

The release of the seekers at BotCon was a huge promotional gambit. It drew attention, hype, and controversy from long time fans.

It got new guys like Geekee1, who just got into Classics, to pony up and go to the convention.

It brought more attention to the line and more people into collecting Classics.

I have yet to see anyone carry out on their promise to abandon their Classics toys because they couldn't get the BotCon ones.

The decision to draw mass amounts of people and promotion was the decision that made money. Presumably more than would have been made off of the 4th, 5th, and 6th reuse (remold) of a toy.

Repaints are stupid after all.

Oh would you guys shut up about this?
This disguision has been going on for a year now.

Would I have loved the botCon figures?
Yes

did I crack in and wanted to buy the complete Classics line?
Yes

Can I?
No

why?
Were never released were I live

What is the answer to that?
buy online

Will I do that?
Yes as soon as my mum lets me use my money.

You keep complaining about how unfair Hasbro was not to make the classic seekers a public realese, be happy that you actually got a dip in that line, heck if you add all the costs I had to go thrue to get my Classics Megatron, Jetfire, Optimus Prime, Ramjet, Grimlock, Cliffjumper and Rodimus, I paid more than what all the damn BotCon exclusives would cost if they had cost tripple the money they did.
Get over it.

Geekee1 wrote:How about a Ghost of Starscream as the attendee only freebie, making it even harder to get! You could hear a thousand geeks scream in terror! Poor Obi-Wan wouldn't know what hit him!

ROFL

Dead Metal wrote:Oh would you guys shut up about this?
This disguision has been going on for a year now.

Would I have loved the botCon figures?
Yes

why?
Were never released were I live

I'll admit, non-US residents got the shaft. They didn't even really have a good opportunity to buy non-attendee sets.

The Club and BotCon should work on that situation.

Yeah Dead Metal, I certainly mean no disrespect to all of you overseas. You guys definitely get hosed on this stuff.

Making half the seekers a Botcon exclusive was a bad idea. There were probably reasons for it. Maybe Hasbro had no intentions to continue the Classics line, so figured this way at least some people would get the chance to own a complete seeker set. I don't know. But given they have continued the line, it was a bad move. I would cheerfully have bought TC, Dirge and Thrust at retail price despite already owning Screamer, Ramjet and two Skywarps.

Thing is, if you look at the complete Botcon exclusives set, it's only the seekers people are complaining about. Most people weren't bothered about Dreadwind, Springer, Alpha Trion or Bugbite. Or that really pointless Mirage retool in transluscent blue plastic. And who the frag is Bugbite? Isn't he a Gobot? Why would anyone pay silly money for Bumblebee repainted as a Gobot? Why not just buy Cliffjumper and at least have a repaint that's trying to be a Transformer, not one of toy history's mistakes.

I digress. My point being, exclusive toys should be tihngs that aren't going to appeal to the average fan on the street. They should be good, don't get me wrong, but they should be the sort of thing that will really get the juices flowing for the sort of person happy to pay hundreds of dollars and travel god knows how far to get them. Sunstorm is a perfect example of this. By all means make him the next exclusive. I'd be mildly jealous, but some people would wet themselves with excitement at the thought. I can't see Sunstorm selling well at regular retail, because he's a fairly obscure character.

Counterpunch wrote:There is the flaw in your argument.

Okay, I'll tackle these points one at a time.

Counterpunch wrote:The release of the seekers at BotCon was a huge promotional gambit. It drew attention, hype, and controversy from long time fans.

Which is good for Botcon, not Hasbro.

Counterpunch wrote:The decision to draw mass amounts of people and promotion was the decision that made money. Presumably more than would have been made off of the 4th, 5th, and 6th reuse (remold) of a toy.

Just to reiterate, Hasbro supply the entire western world and unofficially, many collectors in the orient buy Hasbro too.

Most of the world cannot afford to fly to America and attend Botcon no matter how controversial or exciting, nor afford the very high international package, so whilst it drums up a little more business for Botcon on the US front, it's global reputation suffers, and it does affect it's profits.

There's a lot of people in this world, many of whom would buy the Botcon figures at retail and I don't believe for one second that the limited amount sold outstripped that and made more money.

Counterpunch wrote:I have yet to see anyone carry out on their promise to abandon their Classics toys because they couldn't get the BotCon ones.

That's because those who sit on forums crying about how they're going to give them up are lashing out with frustration because they're never going to give them up.

Many who do stop buying say nothing, they just do it.

I personally know of several people in the UK who have stopped buying, import only from the US or have switched to Takara because of Hasbro's treatment of lines.

I myself haven't collected a main line in years as I know Hasbro always stop a line halfway through, and I'd then have to switch to importing, so I can say that failing to release figures does result in some of us not buying lines anymore.

Counterpunch wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:Oh would you guys shut up about this?
This disguision has been going on for a year now.

Would I have loved the botCon figures?
Yes

why?
Were never released were I live

I'll admit, non-US residents got the shaft. They didn't even really have a good opportunity to buy non-attendee sets.

The Club and BotCon should work on that situation.

Thanks, I would love to attend BotCon and become a member of the club, but it just costs to much, I mean free figure yay awesome and magazines, but why should I pay double of what US citizens pay + why should I pay even more shipping?
Do I get more? No I don't I kinda get less.
So yea if it get cheaper and fairer I will join.

Geekee1 wrote:Yeah Dead Metal, I certainly mean no disrespect to all of you overseas. You guys definitely get hosed on this stuff.

Don't worry I know you don't mean to.

I'm just fead up of people wining about these figures, they are exclusives and that's all you really have to know.
Sure it sucks that they were never realeased in retail, but why cry like that?
I did in the begging to and Hated Hasbro for it, but then I thought and said "Hey you would never have even seen them on the shelves anyway, so fem!"
I mean we eventually will see these guys again, in a new line as new molds with a better engineering maybe.
Who knows?

Good post Dead Metal.

I wonder why the TFCC does not establish an ofice in Europe to service that area ad there certainly appears to be enough demand for it judjing by the Euro members on the boards.

Bonger wrote:Good post Dead Metal.

I wonder why the TFCC does not establish an ofice in Europe to service that area ad there certainly appears to be enough demand for it judjing by the Euro members on the boards.

Ive always suspected TFCC labours under the false misconceptions that Hasbro does: becuase we get stiffed by them in price and supply and go else where for our tf fix, we must therefore not actully want them to provide a proper service.

They dont provide what we went, we go else where.
Then they do, months later with no warning, but we already have it, so it dosnt sell.
They dont provide what we want, we go else where.

It's a vicious cycle I tells ye!

Bonger wrote:Good post Dead Metal.

I wonder why the TFCC does not establish an ofice in Europe to service that area ad there certainly appears to be enough demand for it judjing by the Euro members on the boards.

Thanks you!

I don't know why we get overlooked. I am seriously thinking about making my own collectors club.
all I need is the founding money, and a little help from Hasbro, shipping costs should be no problems cos my best friends dad is quite big in the German post, so I could star one, I just need the money that's all, I basecly have half a business.

Dead Metal wrote:

Bonger wrote:Good post Dead Metal.

I wonder why the TFCC does not establish an ofice in Europe to service that area ad there certainly appears to be enough demand for it judjing by the Euro members on the boards.

Thanks you!

I don't know why we get overlooked. I am seriously thinking about making my own collectors club.
all I need is the founding money, and a little help from Hasbro, shipping costs should be no problems cos my best friends dad is quite big in the German post, so I could star one, I just need the money that's all, I basecly have half a business.

DO IT!!! That's how most clubs get started. You could easily start it out of your basement. Who knows, maybe in 5 years I'll b begging you to hook me up with a set of Eurocon Exclusives.

Bonger wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Bonger wrote:Good post Dead Metal.

I wonder why the TFCC does not establish an ofice in Europe to service that area ad there certainly appears to be enough demand for it judjing by the Euro members on the boards.

Thanks you!

I don't know why we get overlooked. I am seriously thinking about making my own collectors club.
all I need is the founding money, and a little help from Hasbro, shipping costs should be no problems cos my best friends dad is quite big in the German post, so I could star one, I just need the money that's all, I basecly have half a business.

DO IT!!! That's how most clubs get started. You could easily start it out of your basement. Who knows, maybe in 5 years I'll b begging you to hook me up with a set of Eurocon Exclusives.

OK I'll start it, I'll ask around for a partner and then I'll get Hasbro to hook me up with toys.

Yeah go for it Dead Metal! That would be awesome for people outside of the US to get some TF love.

Plus you could have a legion of European transfan followers worshiping you!

Geekee1 wrote:Yeah go for it Dead Metal! That would be awesome for people outside of the US to get some TF love.

Plus you could have a legion of European transfan followers worshiping you!

That would be awesome , and I'll have Doctor Evil in control of the non EU members, we want one million dollars!

Oh man I do hope this works, I'll have to get myself one or two partners first and make a deal with Has/Tak, for info and toys, heck I could try and sell the non exclusive TFs for there US retail price!

Look, I know I kinda "lit the wick" in this thread about this topic.

But after reading almost all of the posts, I stick to my original opinion--

I realize it's relative, but I'd argue that more money could've been made on these figures if they would've been mass released(even though now there's no way of telling).
Especially if you consider what someone else has already said, in that the scope and sequence of how and when these figures could've been released would've made a HUGE difference.
Potentially something like SS and Thundercracker first to build initial interest. Most people who like seekers would lean towards buying these.
Next, probably a couple of coneheads (most people would realize that putting out a Skywarp later on would be very easy, which would lead some to consider buying these in hopes that all 6 would be made).
And lastly Skywarp and the last conehead, WHICH, at that point, most people would probably buy just to complete the set.

Now is it realistic to have all 6 in the first 2 waves?
Probably not...
But this just goes back to one of my original points--
I don't believe for a SECOND that Hasbro truly thought that the Classics line would end after the first two waves.
And realistically, having 2-4 more seekers to release would've made putting the line back out to the public that much easier.

I understand people being really excited for the new characters that are being released,
but imagine if 2 more seekers were on the way too...

Not to mention, not all, but some people will consider buying fewer figures now because they cannot have a completed Classics set. In the grand scheme, that's not really good for anybody.

If you consider this whining, so be it.

No, actually I do not consider you to be whining. You make a good point that I have een making all along in defending Hasbro.

I don't believe they made the seekers an exclusive just to screw people over. I think they honestly were planning on discontiniing Classics as a lot were warming shelves and Takara had shown no interest in picking up the line. They hence sold the rights to those molds to FunPub.

However, upon seeing how insane the demand was for the Botcon Set, and they Takara did have an interest in picking up the line, they realized that they had made a miscalculation and decided to go ahead and continue the line.

However, I still believe that if these were not exclusive to Botocn, we would still have never got them and Classics would now be dead as Hasbro would not have realized their error and would have cancelled the line. It appears that losing 3 seekers to an exclusive was the price we had to pay to have the line continue.

Did Hasbro make an error? Probably. Was it malicious? I do not believe so.

In the end, I theorize that, as a fandom, we are all better off for it as the set revived the Classics line.

You make a great point in that what has come to pass will allow us to enjoy the future...
I really don't think that it was malicious intent in releasing the 3 seeker exclusives...
BUT, I still can't help but question, did Hasbro TRULY believe the line would NEVER get a second chance?
If I can be proved wrong, I'll admit it in a heartbeat,
but again, having those 3 seekers released to the mass public would've only helped to renew interest in the line.
I also question that it was the success of an exclusive set that changed the minds at Hasbro to completely start the line up with new molds, etc.
To me, highly popular exclusives (limited in production #, and actual purchases by consumers) doesn't =, or justify restarting a whole line.
If anything, it may be the company having a line make an outro "in a blaze of glory".

Let me ask people this--
are the now announced deluxe characters hands-down better than the seekers?
I.e.- is Prowl better than Thundercracker, Sunstreaker better than Thrust, etc.
*I do mean characters in general... Try and dismiss the fact that those seekers were exclusives. I'm not wanting answers based on exclusive-bias feelings.