The Energon Pub

A major factor of all this is opinions vs. facts. Facts are things like the plot being reletively thin and scattershot. Alot of what was listed by Shadowman are opinions. On less civilized forums opinions are treated as facts, which can cause alot of this flame tossing.

Example A: I hate Megan Fox's acting, but I know deep down it's not the worst I've seen (see: that chick who played the Empress in Dungeons and Dragons)

Example B: Skids and Mudflap being annoying. Again they didn't annoy me because they actually contributed to the story in their own way, and finally stepped up to being heroes when they fought (however unsuccessfully) Devestator.

Example C: Prime vs The Fallen. This to me is simple mathematics. Brutal melee warrior + power immunity + Squishy Wizard Overlord = Dead Overlord. The example of the Emperor from Star Wars was a good one, as in the background material he's listed as a subpar swordsman, and lets his force powers do all the talking. Without them he'd be screwed, as was the Fallen without his.

All that said, those being Shadowman's opinions don't make them illegitimate gripes, but such gripes are his gripes. None of them bothered me, personally. The only thing I wonder is what became of Wheelie? Personally I think he just buggered off at the pyramid before they went to the Cliffs of Petra (sp?).

This rant brought to you by lack of sleep and caffiene.

Capt.Failure wrote:All that said, those being Shadowman's opinions don't make them illegitimate gripes, but such gripes are his gripes.

They aren't actually my gripes. Those are other people's gripes.

Maybe not the Fallen getting his ass kicked in his ONLY fight in the movie. This is someone who took down Grimlock in two hits. Someone who walked right through Autobot HQ and shrugged off everything thrown at him. In the end, he had to be taken down by Primus. And somehow Optimus with a Jetpack was able to wipe the floor with what amounts to Unicron Lite.

hmmm well for me it really comes down to one thing rotf=cool new toys, thatsw good enough for me really...

on the movie itself well...
a movie has to do at least one of three things in my book
1. provide escapeism
2. provide entertainment
3. provide information/knowledge.

rotf checklist...
1. check
2. definately check
3. are you kidding me? nope

so good enough for me, sure the bayverse merrily urinates over G1 in an orgasmic frenzy of metallic mayhem but it is entertaining and has moved TF toy engineering miles ahead and provided some great toys and interesting character designs. i for one love G1 and greatly enjoy bayverse and will happily sit through a couple hours of bay-former tomfoolery.

cmon guys, its entertainment and toys, not religeon or politics or philosophy...

did i expect to walk away from ROTF feeling intellectually and philisophically improved? no, instead i just wanted to see all the new shiny robots and enjoy some flashy effects and leave with expectations of cool toys and giggling like a schoolgirl over the ridiculousness of it all... which i did so job done!

in a nut shell

1. movie-verse haters, get over it, its just a movie

2. bay worshippers, also get over it bay writes a great action seen but he is no life changing intellectual genius.

3. go buy some toys

Shadowman wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:All that said, those being Shadowman's opinions don't make them illegitimate gripes, but such gripes are his gripes.

They aren't actually my gripes. Those are other people's gripes.

You misread the point of my statement. Opinions =/= Facts. People who dislike the film (who, overall, are in the minority) tend to state opinions as facts. Mind you Shadowman this is not an accusation toward you, your opinions are just the ones I used as examples since they're commonly brought up.

sure the bayverse merrily urinates over G1 in an orgasmic frenzy of metallic mayhem

Methinks you vastly overestimate the depth of G1 as a series. You can't "urinate" on a series if there's nothing there to urinate on. This from a G1 fan.

Shadowman wrote: [They aren't actually my gripes. Those are other people's gripes.

Problem is like Capt. Failure said, these really aren't illegitimate "factual" gripes. If someone doesn't like it for whatever reason then fine. Thats there right. But the second they start passing there opinions on as facts then thats where they loose the debate.

Shadowman wrote:Maybe not the Fallen getting his ass kicked in his ONLY fight in the movie. This is someone who took down Grimlock in two hits. Someone who walked right through Autobot HQ and shrugged off everything thrown at him. In the end, he had to be taken down by Primus. And somehow Optimus with a Jetpack was able to wipe the floor with what amounts to Unicron Lite.

Two completely different universe's. (Sorry, is that even a word? )What transpires in one world doesn't mean it will pass on to the next.

5150 Cruiser wrote:Problem is like Capt. Failure said, these really aren't illegitimate "factual" gripes. If someone doesn't like it for whatever reason then fine. Thats there right. But the second they start passing there opinions on as facts then thats where they loose the debate.

And what about when you start disregarding people's opinions, and claiming that they're "subjective" and thus not actual problems with the movie?

(The problem with the Twins and Leo, by the way, is that they don't do anything other than make lame jokes.)

Just because you can look past, ignore, or are otherwise oblivious to problems the movie has, does not mean they don't exist.

5150 Cruiser wrote:Two completely different universe's. (Sorry, is that even a word? )What transpires in one world doesn't mean it will pass on to the next.

This is the Fallen. It may be two different universes but there's only one Fallen between them. That's how he works.

sure the bayverse merrily urinates over G1 in an orgasmic frenzy of metallic mayhem

Methinks you vastly overestimate the depth of G1 as a series. You can't "urinate" on a series if there's nothing there to urinate on. This from a G1 fan.

true enough, i have noallusions to the ridiculous nature of the g1 verse, i was really referring to appearances, alt forms and character portrayal. as it happens i actually prefer some of the bayverse to g1 (i always thought megatrons alt form made a great toy but a dumb character, so i really like the rotf cybertron tank megs, a warmachine with utter contempt for humanity, much better)

And what about when you start disregarding people's opinions, and claiming that they're "subjective" and thus not actual problems with the movie?

Except everything you did state was an opinion, and opinions are subjective. By the logic of this statement, you could say I'm wrong for not being annoyed by Skids and Mudflap because it's against your opinion. Or conversely, I could say you're wrong because you're opinion disregards mine.

See the problem here?

Sure, alot of things in the movie bothered you even though you liked it. However, they did not bother everyone, and to many none of it bothered them. You can't say the people who disregard your opinion are wrong. That's what many critics (Ebert especially) did, and that's the kind of thing I'd expect to see on 4chan rather than here.

Shadowman wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:Two completely different universe's. (Sorry, is that even a word? )What transpires in one world doesn't mean it will pass on to the next.

This is the Fallen. It may be two different universes but there's only one Fallen between them. That's how he works.

im not to sure Orci/Kurtzman/Bay are aware of that. its likely they threw the fallen in the mix to get hard core transformer fans to watch the film, considering typical fan reaction to anything different

Shadowman wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:All that said, those being Shadowman's opinions don't make them illegitimate gripes, but such gripes are his gripes.

They aren't actually my gripes. Those are other people's gripes.

Maybe not the Fallen getting his ass kicked in his ONLY fight in the movie. This is someone who took down Grimlock in two hits. Someone who walked right through Autobot HQ and shrugged off everything thrown at him. In the end, he had to be taken down by Primus. And somehow Optimus with a Jetpack was able to wipe the floor with what amounts to Unicron Lite.

Please don't take this as a slam against anyone...this is simply an observation and my opinion only.

Without other's opinions, there would be no discussion. Though, putting opinions in a post - even if they're not your own - will give the impression that these opinions are your own. Playing Devil's Advocate does have it's hazards.

I've watched ROTF more often than I've watched the first movie because there was a story there that I really enjoyed. I thought there was a lot of research done on alternate theories on ancient civilizations that the writers were able to modify to make that particular story work. I eat up that kind of stuff anyway - my opinion is that mainstream science cannot explain all events that have taken place in human history and "something else" is a major player in human/earth development. There are no real facts to back any of it up - it's all, by in large, someone's opinion. But without someone asking the obscure questions we'd all just go along with what we're told.

There were several scenes in ROTF that I could have done without- like Sam's mom on pot brownies, Simmon's butt, Leo's wishy washy behavior when things got rough...most of the attempts at humor. These didn't contribute to the story at all. This was not a great movie, but I continue to enjoy it because I like the story. No one's opinion will change that, though someone's different thoughts may make me think a bit deeper into the subject and thus causing my own opinions to evolve - or at least give me a different perspective.

Capt.Failure wrote:You can't say the people who disregard your opinion are wrong. That's what many critics (Ebert especially) did, and that's the kind of thing I'd expect to see on 4chan rather than here.

I happen to be best friends with a 4chan regular. If you expect 4chan, the embodiment of entropy, to do anything, you've already made a crucial mistake.

In any case, most of those weren't really my opinions, just what I've heard people complain loudest about. Just examples. Except the Fallen. (I'm the main villain and soooo awesome and oh I'm dead in a minute flat) And the Twins to an extent. And the lack of robot screen time. And some other stuff, but sill, that was mostly just examples. Point is, people were saying they don't know why people were complaining about ROTF being bad. Well, there's your list. The two robots with the most face time are two of the most annoying in the franchise, humans still get more focus over the actual robots, and the main villain, one of the most powerful villains in the franchise, can't last two minutes in the ring with Prime.

And there's all kinds of ways to reason the Fallen not lasting long, and in terms of in-universe explanations they do make some sense. But from a writing perspective, there's no way to justify building up your main villain only for him to go down in such a brief fight due to some vaguely explained quasi-mystical reason. "Well, it's because he can only be defeated by a Prime!" He was a Prime. In fact, they even claim that of the original Primes, the Fallen was the most powerful. And it's not like only a Prime can kill a Prime, Megatron disproved that one half way through the movie. There's literally no excuse for taking one of the two most powerful villains in the franchise and making him a complete wuss too afraid of Optimus Prime to get out of his chair.

Point is, people were saying they don't know why people were complaining about ROTF being bad. Well, there's your list. The two robots with the most face time are two of the most annoying in the franchise, humans still get more focus over the actual robots, and the main villain, one of the most powerful villains in the franchise, can't last two minutes in the ring with Prime.

Though we are in agreement these are opinions, not facts, as these things didn't bug everyone? That was my point.

"Well, it's because he can only be defeated by a Prime!" He was a Prime. In fact, they even claim that of the original Primes, the Fallen was the most powerful. And it's not like only a Prime can kill a Prime, Megatron disproved that one half way through the movie. There's literally no excuse for taking one of the two most powerful villains in the franchise and making him a complete wuss too afraid of Optimus Prime to get out of his chair.

If I was the Fallen, and had all that power, I'd be just as cautious. As for dieing so easily my own theory is when Optimus (a Prime) merged with Jetfire (a Seeker, who seem to have a demigod like relevance in the movieverse) it wasn't a power amplification of Prime + Seeker, but rather Prime x Seeker. Basically, the merger powered up Optimus to the degree he simply overpowered the Fallen.

Capt.Failure wrote:If I was the Fallen, and had all that power, I'd be just as cautious. As for dieing so easily my own theory is when Optimus (a Prime) merged with Jetfire (a Seeker, who seem to have a demigod like relevance in the movieverse) it wasn't a power amplification of Prime + Seeker, but rather Prime x Seeker. Basically, the merger powered up Optimus to the degree he simply overpowered the Fallen.

And, like I said, from an in-universe perspective that makes sense. Even though Jetfire had been critically wounded by Scorponok just before that and was basically dying. But, like I said, from a writing perspective there's no excuse for having a major villain, and the most powerful villain in the franchise next to Unicron, die in such a short fight. You can rationalize it all you want, but that doesn't make it okay. Seriously, they couldn't have the fight last five more minutes?

Shadowman wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:You can't say the people who disregard your opinion are wrong. That's what many critics (Ebert especially) did, and that's the kind of thing I'd expect to see on 4chan rather than here.

I happen to be best friends with a 4chan regular. If you expect 4chan, the embodiment of entropy, to do anything, you've already made a crucial mistake.

In any case, most of those weren't really my opinions, just what I've heard people complain loudest about. Just examples. Except the Fallen. (I'm the main villain and soooo awesome and oh I'm dead in a minute flat) And the Twins to an extent. And the lack of robot screen time. And some other stuff, but sill, that was mostly just examples. Point is, people were saying they don't know why people were complaining about ROTF being bad. Well, there's your list. The two robots with the most face time are two of the most annoying in the franchise, humans still get more focus over the actual robots, and the main villain, one of the most powerful villains in the franchise, can't last two minutes in the ring with Prime.

There are perfectly valid reasons not to like the movie, but's it's an issue of opinion not quality. If someone doesn't like a movie it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. If more people would just admit that the movie just wasn't their cup of tea instead of always saying "worst piece of **** ever!!!! Bay raped my childhood!!!!! only idiots like this movie!!!!!" Those of us on the pro movie side wouldn't have to get so defensive after these attacks on our taste and intellect.

And there's all kinds of ways to reason the Fallen not lasting long, and in terms of in-universe explanations they do make some sense. But from a writing perspective, there's no way to justify building up your main villain only for him to go down in such a brief fight due to some vaguely explained quasi-mystical reason. "Well, it's because he can only be defeated by a Prime!" He was a Prime. In fact, they even claim that of the original Primes, the Fallen was the most powerful. And it's not like only a Prime can kill a Prime, Megatron disproved that one half way through the movie. There's literally no excuse for taking one of the two most powerful villains in the franchise and making him a complete wuss too afraid of Optimus Prime to get out of his chair.

The Fallen was also really old, older than Jetfire even. Being past his prime(pun intended) and with energon being in short supply he's not at his maximum. Which is why he waited until the only remaining transformer that could challenge him was dead before he made his move. I know Megatron killed Optimus, but that wasn't exactly a fair fight. He snuck up behind him and stabbed him in the back after Optimus kicked his and and 2 other Decepticons asses up one side of the forest and down the other.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:The Fallen was also really old, older than Jetfire even. Being past his prime(pun intended) and with energon being in short supply he's not at his maximum. Which is why he waited until the only remaining transformer that could challenge him was dead before he made his move. I know Megatron killed Optimus, but that wasn't exactly a fair fight. He snuck up behind him and stabbed him in the back after Optimus kicked his and and 2 other Decepticons asses up one side of the forest and down the other.

For the third time: In-universe explanations do not excuse writing such a short fight for such a powerful villain. You can say "he was too old" or "Prime had a fancy jetpack" but that doesn't matter. It doesn't make such an anticlimactic fight suddenly a good one. It doesn't suddenly remove any reason to make a fight last longer then two minutes.

Shadowman wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:The Fallen was also really old, older than Jetfire even. Being past his prime(pun intended) and with energon being in short supply he's not at his maximum. Which is why he waited until the only remaining transformer that could challenge him was dead before he made his move. I know Megatron killed Optimus, but that wasn't exactly a fair fight. He snuck up behind him and stabbed him in the back after Optimus kicked his and and 2 other Decepticons asses up one side of the forest and down the other.

For the third time: In-universe explanations do not excuse writing such a short fight for such a powerful villain. You can say "he was too old" or "Prime had a fancy jetpack" but that doesn't matter. It doesn't make such an anticlimactic fight suddenly a good one. It doesn't suddenly remove any reason to make a fight last longer then two minutes.

And Hotrod one-shotted Unicron after having trouble with Galvatron after getting a powerup as well. I guess Primes are just good at doing that.

Capt.Failure wrote:And Hotrod one-shotted Unicron after having trouble with Galvatron after getting a powerup as well. I guess Primes are just good at doing that.

That was entirely different. They actually HAD a fight scene, that lasted more than two minutes. And Unicron was already destroying Cybertron. As opposed to ROTF, where the Fallen randomly appears, grabs the Matrix, then sits on top of a pyramid, lifting up some rocks for a shield, until Optimus comes and curbstomps him.

Shadowman wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:And Hotrod one-shotted Unicron after having trouble with Galvatron after getting a powerup as well. I guess Primes are just good at doing that.

That was entirely different. They actually HAD a fight scene, that lasted more than two minutes. And Unicron was already destroying Cybertron. As opposed to ROTF, where the Fallen randomly appears, grabs the Matrix, then sits on top of a pyramid, lifting up some rocks for a shield, until Optimus comes and curbstomps him.

Yes he had a fight...with Galvatron. Unicron, much like the Fallen, made a big show then went down in a single attack. Difference is Optimus had his big fight with Megatron split into two halves (those being the Forest Battle and when Prime beats him at the Pyramid).

Capt.Failure wrote:Yes he had a fight...with Galvatron. Unicron, much like the Fallen, made a big show then went down in a single attack. Difference is Optimus had his big fight with Megatron split into two halves (those being the Forest Battle and when Prime beats him at the Pyramid).

Yeah. But at least they had an actual fight scene. Also while everyone else was busy fighting Unicron from the inside and outside. And it ended with Rodimus Prime unleashing the Matrix, the Spark of Primus, and destroying Unicron, escaping before Unicron explodes. The final battle of that movie involved more than three robots and lasted more than two minutes. You get what I'm saying here? Both Galvatron and Unicron actually put up a fight.

Shadowman wrote:Skids and Mudflap? Or Leo? Or John Turturro's bare ass? Or Megan Fox's crappy acting? Or Megatron telling Starscream he's the only leader of the Decepticons then immediately calling the Fallen "master"? Or Devestator's testicles? Or the Fallen being a complete wuss when he fights Prime? (He was just a step below Unicron in the comics) Or the designs that some people just don't like? (Understandably so) Or Prime still being completely indifferent to his dead allies? Or that they still give more focus to the humans' reactions to the robots than the robots themselves? Or the fact (Not including Prime and the Twins) that the Autobots have all of a dozen speaking lines between them?

Just because you didn't notice the problems people have been saying about the movie doesn't mean they aren't there.

Many of these are all a matter of personal opinion my friend...not always that I didn't notice them. I do have a few little gripes, but I just think they're blown out of proportion. They don't noticeably take away from the movie in my opinion.
I enjoyed Skids and Mudflap. I'm also not a racist.
I thought Leo was comical...but maybe it is best that he left. He was kind of a wuss.
Turturro: Yeah, kind of gross, but it didn't affect anything for me.
Megan Fox: Okay you got me...thank Primus she's gone.
The Megatron thing...I just assumed Megatron was plotting to kill his master anyway, and I thought he was just "sucking up" to the Fallen.
The robo balls...not my favorite part, I must admit, but it didn't make the movie any less enjoyable for me.
The Fallen/Prime fight...I see your point. But didn't Prime's upgrade give him more power?
Okay, give me an example where Prime is indifferent to hid dead allies. Where is that?
The humans: I know what you mean, but it didn't kill the movie for me.
The Autobots' lines: Same as above statement.

Shadowman wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:The Fallen was also really old, older than Jetfire even. Being past his prime(pun intended) and with energon being in short supply he's not at his maximum. Which is why he waited until the only remaining transformer that could challenge him was dead before he made his move. I know Megatron killed Optimus, but that wasn't exactly a fair fight. He snuck up behind him and stabbed him in the back after Optimus kicked his and and 2 other Decepticons asses up one side of the forest and down the other.

For the third time: In-universe explanations do not excuse writing such a short fight for such a powerful villain. You can say "he was too old" or "Prime had a fancy jetpack" but that doesn't matter. It doesn't make such an anticlimactic fight suddenly a good one. It doesn't suddenly remove any reason to make a fight last longer then two minutes.

I liked The Fallen. He was probably my favorite TF villain ever. But there is also so much more they could have done with him. But, he did what he was supposed to do. He committed near genocide on the human race, put the planet in fear, and was about to finish the planet off with one final blow. As usual, the hero comes in and saves the day. That's what was supposed to happen. Besides, you can't blame the movie. Bay said he wanted to add more to that scene, but they where still putting on the final touches 30 minutes before the premier! I don't blame them for not making the fight longer. The Fallen did his job, and Optimus and Jetfire did theirs.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:The Fallen was also really old, older than Jetfire even. Being past his prime(pun intended) and with energon being in short supply he's not at his maximum. Which is why he waited until the only remaining transformer that could challenge him was dead before he made his move. I know Megatron killed Optimus, but that wasn't exactly a fair fight. He snuck up behind him and stabbed him in the back after Optimus kicked his and and 2 other Decepticons asses up one side of the forest and down the other.

For the third time: In-universe explanations do not excuse writing such a short fight for such a powerful villain. You can say "he was too old" or "Prime had a fancy jetpack" but that doesn't matter. It doesn't make such an anticlimactic fight suddenly a good one. It doesn't suddenly remove any reason to make a fight last longer then two minutes.

I liked The Fallen. He was probably my favorite TF villain ever. But there is also so much more they could have done with him. But, he did what he was supposed to do. He committed near genocide on the human race, put the planet in fear, and was about to finish the planet off with one final blow. As usual, the hero comes in and saves the day. That's what was supposed to happen. Besides, you can't blame the movie. Bay said he wanted to add more to that scene, but they where still putting on the final touches 30 minutes before the premier! I don't blame them for not making the fight longer. The Fallen did his job, and Optimus and Jetfire did theirs.

@ Shadowman: Okay, if the Fallen is so powerful compared to Optimus, then how come he sends Megatron, Starscream, and Grindor to kill Optimus, rather than doing it himself? The Fallen did say "only a Prime can defeat me", so obviously he was afraid of Optimus. Maybe the Fallen isn't actually as powerful as he'd like humans, Autobots, and maybe Megatron to think. Just a theory.
@ SlyTF1: I can actually completely agree with you.

OptiMagnus10 wrote:Okay, give me an example where Prime is indifferent to hid dead allies. Where is that?

That ancient Transformer that gave his life so that prime could have a fighting edge against the Fallen and Megatron? You notice what Prime does after the fight? He shrugs off the pieces and acts like they were never their. A lot of people claimed he was also indifferent to jazz's death but then I don't see that one.

SlyTF1 wrote:Besides, you can't blame the movie. Bay said he wanted to add more to that scene, but they where still putting on the final touches 30 minutes before the premier!

They were finishing editing the film, which is the very last part of production. Just because he finished editing so close to showtime doesn't actually excuse not filming/rendering an additional five minutes to a fight scene that sorely needed it.

Shadowman wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:Besides, you can't blame the movie. Bay said he wanted to add more to that scene, but they where still putting on the final touches 30 minutes before the premier!

They were finishing editing the film, which is the very last part of production. Just because he finished editing so close to showtime doesn't actually excuse not filming/rendering an additional five minutes to a fight scene that sorely needed it.

Well, the final battle all together is 40 minutes, and most of the entire 40 minutes was relevant to the story, so if they would have made the battle 4 minutes longer, then the final battle would have dragged on and on. It still would be cool to make it longer, but whats the point? They said all they had to say, and a 1 on 1 fight with giant robots wouldn't be all that interesting for 5 minutes. 3 minutes, yeah, but 5, no.

Shadowman wrote:

OptiMagnus10 wrote:Okay, give me an example where Prime is indifferent to hid dead allies. Where is that?

That ancient Transformer that gave his life so that prime could have a fighting edge against the Fallen and Megatron? You notice what Prime does after the fight? He shrugs off the pieces and acts like they were never their. A lot of people claimed he was also indifferent to jazz's death but then I don't see that one.

Ahh...yes...that is odd. You'd think he'd want to keep his jetpack for the abilities he gains from it. Maybe he could have at least said something about Jetfire's heroism.
As for Jazz, I can agree with you. Optimus does acknowledge his death and dying a hero.