The Energon Pub

Ultra Markus wrote:there shouldnt be any aligned continuity because after beast wars it seemed like every new show had its own universe and every show was so drastically different from each other its hard to relate one show to another other than unicron trilogy but only armada and energon seemed directly related and cybertron seemed so different and now with these games and Prime and the new Robots in Disguise so many differences its hard to connect them it would be easier to just have each series its own universe or maybe what would be cool is do what DC comics did and have a crisis of infinite earths but with Transformers so have everything from G1 to shattered glass to movie verse and so on

Punctuation is a thing.

Honestly when I heard the basis for aligned and the components for it, I thought it was a horrible idea to try and blend them all together for the basis of selling a couple novels (as it appeared to me) that would try to piece it all together. That and as I had watched the same questions and discussions a few years back when Turn-A Gundam attempted to try pushing all the various Gundam continuities into a single one, which luckily that franchise appears to have dropped.

For me, I figured out within a couple minutes of reading my first copy of the Marvel comic (issue 7 if memory serves) that it was a different story from the cartoon I was seeing on tv at the time, and just accepted from that time that the same characters could exist in different mediums, and since then just have accepted that some parts may or may not need to connect to others. If I like the series I'll read/watch them. And even then it has no effect on if I'll buy a figure, as I'll buy a cool figure from a series I haven't watched, and not buy a figure I don't care for even if I loved the series.

So to give my answer to the topic question, personally it has zero effect on my head canon, so it doesn't matter to me. That said with the number of continuity issues that were going to be issues when they started it that appear to be compounding as they add more to it, I do believe it should be scrapped only because these problems will likely keep pilling on.

What gets me weirded is that this:



Can evolve into this:



After a mere 300 years, and people accept that.

And yet, this:



Evolving into this:



After many thousands of years is somehow unfathomable.


This fandom, I swear.

Sabrblade wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:there shouldnt be any aligned continuity because after beast wars it seemed like every new show had its own universe and every show was so drastically different from each other its hard to relate one show to another other than unicron trilogy but only armada and energon seemed directly related and cybertron seemed so different and now with these games and Prime and the new Robots in Disguise so many differences its hard to connect them it would be easier to just have each series its own universe or maybe what would be cool is do what DC comics did and have a crisis of infinite earths but with Transformers so have everything from G1 to shattered glass to movie verse and so on

Punctuation is a thing.

i didn't think there were any grammar police on these forums maybe you should police some who actually cares, because i don't

Editor wrote:Honestly when I heard the basis for aligned and the components for it, I thought it was a horrible idea to try and blend them all together for the basis of selling a couple novels (as it appeared to me) that would try to piece it all together. That and as I had watched the same questions and discussions a few years back when Turn-A Gundam attempted to try pushing all the various Gundam continuities into a single one, which luckily that franchise appears to have dropped.

For me, I figured out within a couple minutes of reading my first copy of the Marvel comic (issue 7 if memory serves) that it was a different story from the cartoon I was seeing on tv at the time, and just accepted from that time that the same characters could exist in different mediums, and since then just have accepted that some parts may or may not need to connect to others. If I like the series I'll read/watch them. And even then it has no effect on if I'll buy a figure, as I'll buy a cool figure from a series I haven't watched, and not buy a figure I don't care for even if I loved the series.

So to give my answer to the topic question, personally it has zero effect on my head canon, so it doesn't matter to me. That said with the number of continuity issues that were going to be issues when they started it that appear to be compounding as they add more to it, I do believe it should be scrapped only because these problems will likely keep pilling on.

exactly!

Sabrblade wrote:What gets me weirded is that this:



Can evolve into this:



After a mere 300 years, and people accept that.

And yet, this:



Evolving into this:



After many thousands of years is somehow unfathomable.


This fandom, I swear.

maybe because these had something to do with the first and the latter didnt have that

That's still a blocky species becoming a fleshy species of an entirely different scale, regardless of hand-drawn vs CGI art styles.

In fact, you're helping my argument since the Autobots and Decepticons in those BW/BM screencaps still look like a completely different species from the BM Maximals.

Sabrblade wrote:That's still a blocky species becoming a fleshy species of a entirely different scale, regardless of hand-drawn vs CGI art styles.

In fact, you're helping my argument since the Autobots and Decepticons in those BW/BM screencaps still look like a completely different species from the BM Maximals.

diffent species or hand drawn or cgi or not they still gave bits of G1 in beast/wars beast machines (G1 still is G1 whether its cgi or hand drawn!) so we think its all related because they were their ancesters (yes they look totally different i agree with that) so "blocky species" evolve into fleshy or techno organic species of a smaller scale its a weird evolution of Transformers and it was explained to us in the show. how is that hard to understand ?

Ultra Markus wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:That's still a blocky species becoming a fleshy species of a entirely different scale, regardless of hand-drawn vs CGI art styles.

In fact, you're helping my argument since the Autobots and Decepticons in those BW/BM screencaps still look like a completely different species from the BM Maximals.

diffent species or hand drawn or cgi or not they still gave bits of G1 in beast/wars beast machines

You do realize that they had time travel stuff involved to be able to do that, right?

Prime didn't.

Ultra Markus wrote:so we think its all related because they were their ancesters (yes they look totally different i agree with that) so "blocky species" evolve into fleshy or techno organic species of a smaller scale its a weird evolution of Transformers and it was explained to us in the show. how is that hard to understand ?

And yet, a chunky species getting smoother over many many millennia (far longer than the blocks becoming flesh) is something unimaginable?

Sabrblade wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:That's still a blocky species becoming a fleshy species of a entirely different scale, regardless of hand-drawn vs CGI art styles.

In fact, you're helping my argument since the Autobots and Decepticons in those BW/BM screencaps still look like a completely different species from the BM Maximals.

diffent species or hand drawn or cgi or not they still gave bits of G1 in beast/wars beast machines

You do realize that they had time travel stuff involved to be able to do that, right?

Prime didn't.

Ultra Markus wrote:so we think its all related because they were their ancesters (yes they look totally different i agree with that) so "blocky species" evolve into fleshy or techno organic species of a smaller scale its a weird evolution of Transformers and it was explained to us in the show. how is that hard to understand ?

And yet, a chunky species getting smoother over many many millennia (far longer than the blocks becoming flesh) is something unimaginable?

so from fall of cybertron were we have chunky robots to prime were we have more sleeker robots is more conceivable than G1 evolving to beast machines? time travel had nothing to do with the evolution remember they were already maximals and predacons before they traveled through time

Ultra Markus wrote:so from fall of cybertron were we have chunky robots to prime were we have more sleeker robots is more conceivable than G1 evolving to beast machines? time travel had nothing to do with the evolution remember they were already maximals and predacons before they traveled through time

You said there was G1 stuff in Beast Wars. That was done via time travel.

And yes, a species of chunky robots smoothing out their armor plating over a fair period of time is far more believable than a species of blocky metal robots metamorphosing into a species of flesh-based robots over a vastly shorter period of time by comparison. For one, the smoothing out of armor didn't need to involve space magic, or a complete overhaul to the species's entire genetic makeup. It's far more mechanical than supernatural.

Sabrblade wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:so from fall of cybertron were we have chunky robots to prime were we have more sleeker robots is more conceivable than G1 evolving to beast machines? time travel had nothing to do with the evolution remember they were already maximals and predacons before they traveled through time

You said there was G1 stuff in Beast Wars. That was done via time travel.

And yes, a species of chunky robots smoothing out their armor plating over a fair period of time is far more believable than a species of blocky metal robots metamorphosing into a species of flesh-based robots over a vastly shorter period of time by comparison. For one, the smoothing out of armor didn't need to involve space magic, or a complete overhaul to the species's entire genetic makeup. It's far more mechanical than supernatural.

uh no, the g1 stuff was already there on earth before the maximals and predicons arrived from the future
how is it that you think that just because they traveled through time that made the G1 stuff appear? it was already there! and their evolution needed no time travel the only reason time travel was a factor is because megatron had a disk that told him when and were to go and the maximals followed and eventually discovering the crashed ark that was already there! you talk about their flesh like its strickly organic when its not really its metallic in nature(techo organic) that's their biology

Ultra Markus wrote:uh no, the g1 stuff was already there on earth before the maximals and predicons arrived from the future

Right, via time travel. That's how there was G1 stuff able to be featured in the cartoon. The show's setting allowed for it thanks to our heroes and villains time-traveling to a point that enabled G1 stuff to be included.

Ultra Markus wrote:how is it that you think that just because they traveled through time that made the G1 stuff appear?

Because if the characters hadn't time traveled, the show would have been stuck in the 300-years-later post-G1 setting that the characters came from.

Come to think of it, if it weren't for the time-traveling, there wouldn't have even been a Beast War to be fought.

Ultra Markus wrote:it was already there!

Not at the production stages of the first episode, it wasn't. According to several interviews with Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio, they were gonna make Beast Wars be its own thing unrelated to previous Transformers media. That two-parter pilot episode was devoid of any G1 elements, with its mentioning of something called the "Great War" being a nebulous concept at the time. It was only later after they started writing some G1 stuff into the show that the "Great War" was decided to refer to the Autobot/Decepticon civil war of old.

It wouldn't be until episode 3 when we got our first glimpse at something firmly G1-related, that which being a shot of Starscream in jet mode flying over Cybertron in Cheetor's dream.

And once the production team had decided to make the unknown planet on which the show was set into being prehistoric Earth, the time travel that occurred back at the beginning of the show enabled the writers to introduce the Ark and its occupants in a manner that coincided with all that the show had done up to that point.

Ultra Markus wrote:and their evolution needed no time travel

Never argued that the evolution was made possible via the time travel (though Optimus Primal in Beast Machines did believe something like that). Just that the inclusion of the G1 elements in the Beast Wars cartoon was aided by the time travel.

Ultra Markus wrote:the only reason time travel was a factor is because megatron had a disk that told him when and were to go and the maximals followed and eventually discovering the crashed ark that was already there!

This plan wasn't laid out from the get go of the show's creation, as both Forward and DiTillio admitted to more making things up as they went along and eventually retconned the Ark into being the secret behind the disk, as it was originally just going to give instructions to large sum of energon at first. The Ark was later written into the show in a way that tied into the time travel from the first episode.

Ultra Markus wrote:you talk about their flesh like its strickly organic when its not really its metallic in nature(techo organic) that's their biology

We're shown X-Rays of Nightscream in Beast Machines that show organs and other internal components found in carbon-based lifeforms, rather than machines, inside his technorganic body. He was no longer a mere mechanoid, but something of a completely different nature.


Though, looking over this conversation, I gotta wonder if we might not quite be on the same page about what we're discussing.

Sabrblade wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:uh no, the g1 stuff was already there on earth before the maximals and predicons arrived from the future

Right, via time travel. That's how there was G1 stuff able to be featured in the cartoon. The show's setting allowed for it thanks to our heroes and villains time-traveling to a point that enabled G1 stuff to be included.

Ultra Markus wrote:how is it that you think that just because they traveled through time that made the G1 stuff appear?

Because if the characters hadn't time traveled, the show would have been stuck in the 300-years-later post-G1 setting that the characters came from.

Come to think of it, if it weren't for the time-traveling, there wouldn't have even been a Beast War to be fought.

Ultra Markus wrote:it was already there!

Not at the production stages of the first episode, it wasn't. According to several interviews with Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio, they were gonna make Beast Wars be its own thing unrelated to previous Transformers media. That two-parter pilot episode was devoid of any G1 elements, with its mentioning of something called the "Great War" being a nebulous concept at the time. It was only later after they started writing some G1 stuff into the show that the "Great War" was decided to refer to the Autobot/Decepticon civil war of old.

It wouldn't be until episode 3 when we got our first glimpse at something firmly G1-related, that which being a shot of Starscream in jet mode flying over Cybertron in Cheetor's dream.

And once the production team had decided to make the unknown planet on which the show was set into being prehistoric Earth, the time travel that occurred back at the beginning of the show enabled the writers to introduce the Ark and its occupants in a manner that coincided with all that the show had done up to that point.

Ultra Markus wrote:and their evolution needed no time travel

Never argued that the evolution was made possible via the time travel (though Optimus Primal in Beast Machines did believe something like that). Just that the inclusion of the G1 elements in the Beast Wars cartoon was aided by the time travel.

Ultra Markus wrote:the only reason time travel was a factor is because megatron had a disk that told him when and were to go and the maximals followed and eventually discovering the crashed ark that was already there!

This plan wasn't laid out from the get go of the show's creation, as both Forward and DiTillio admitted to more making things up as they went along and eventually retconned the Ark into being the secret behind the disk, as it was originally just going to give instructions to large sum of energon at first. The Ark was later written into the show in a way that tied into the time travel from the first episode.

Ultra Markus wrote:you talk about their flesh like its strickly organic when its not really its metallic in nature(techo organic) that's their biology

We're shown X-Rays of Nightscream in Beast Machines that show organs and other internal components found in carbon-based lifeforms, rather than machines, inside his technorganic body. He was no longer a mere mechanoid, but something of a completely different nature.


Though, looking over this conversation, I gotta wonder if we might not quite be on the same page about what we're discussing.

your in a different book not page i'm talking about the show as a whole not whether the shows creators had originally planed because what they originally planed didn't matter in the end, and you must think that reality applies to cartoons when cartoons are not reality to begin with

At least with Beast Wars it was an entirely separate social generation from G1. The timescale might be a bit wonky, but the very factions themselves evolved, you'd expect the same with the Transformers, too. Plus... the show conditioned us to accept radically different visual changes, given how often it gave widespread updates (and on-screen too, no "oh it happened while you weren't looking")

Noideaforaname wrote:At least with Beast Wars it was an entirely separate social generation from G1. The timescale might be a bit wonky, but the very factions themselves evolved, you'd expect the same with the Transformers, too.

Well, G1 itself was guilty of things too. A whole 9 millions years passed (from when Megatron started the war in "War Dawn") and its race never evolved, yet a mere 300 years go by later on and BOOM, totally new species population dominates the planet.

At least with the thousands of years between the games and the show shows that that time was spent having stuff happen to the Cybertronians as a race at a steady, gradual pace instead of "millions of years of no progress" suddenly getting swapped out by "a mere 3 centuries sprouts up a whole new populace".

Does "thousands of years" not sound less outrageous/more reasonable to fathom? Even the movies were able to avoid the "four million years ago" hole by having their comics set the beginning of the Movieverse's pre-Earth war at 10,000 BC.

There's literally nothing holding this "aligned" continuity together. Nothing.

SlyTF1 wrote:There's literally nothing holding this "aligned" continuity together. Nothing.

Same could be said for the movies.

Especially the

BtW: Editor Turn-A was the only one to use the turn a bang theory it was a one off deal for the franchises anniversary.

ZeroWolf wrote:Especially the

BtW: Editor Turn-A was the only one to use the turn a bang theory it was a one off deal for the franchises anniversary.

Oh I am fully aware of how the Correct Century "works". I was more referring to just before Turn A started when all there really was to get a feel for the show was a handful of articles in Newtype and Animage where we knew the base concept for the series but not context so many of the Gundam fans I know fixated on thing "they knew" wouldn't work in an aligned Gundam-verse.

Where I said that it appears they have dropped the concept was based on supposed comments from Tomino (a great guy in person) that it should/could be used for future series as well, which doesn't seem to have been followed up on. Not even (so far, I'm only half way thru) with Tomino's own latest Gundam Reconguista.

Ah right I understand now

Maybe the question we should ask now is what hasbro should do in future to make things like this work seamlessly

Ah right I understand now

Maybe the question we should ask now is what hasbro should do in future to make things like this work seamlessly

ZeroWolf wrote:Ah right I understand now

Maybe the question we should ask now is what hasbro should do in future to make things like this work seamlessly

That's just it, though. To Hasbro, things already do work seamlessly. They aren't going to fix what they don't see as broken.

Sabrblade wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:Ah right I understand now

Maybe the question we should ask now is what hasbro should do in future to make things like this work seamlessly

That's just it, though. To Hasbro, things already do work seamlessly. They aren't going to fix what they don't see as broken.

Or need to fix. I think most of us by now understand the basics of Multiverses and how that applies to Transformers.

Even the concept of what we usually call G1 can be seen as a number of different timelines/continuities depending on comics, cartoons, books, tech specs, and regional differences. Most of this exists without need for a single combined G1 narrative.

Series A affects series B, but not C. B &C may share concepts with D, With E being completely separate from all others. A in Japan is almost identical to north america, but D in Japan may be a completely different story.

We have been given this vast multiverse to deal with for decades and mostly we have accepted it without a need for unity. By forcing one on to series that could work better without the baggage of what came before it.

The changes in Beast Wars were the result of an off-screen "great upgrade" where pretty much the entire species suddenly shifted into smaller and more fuel efficient robots than their G1 predecessors. Sure, the change is drastic, but there's a canonical explanation for it. In the series pilot, BW Megatron's robot body is fairly blocky like his G1 predecessors, albeit thinner and lankier. I'd say the Vehicons in Beast Machines look drastically different from, say tetrajets in the G1 cartoon pilots, but not so different from characters like Misfire and his alien jet mode. Those with organic components aren't really a fair comparison to those without.

As for Prime vs WFC designs, the only significant issues that stand out for me are Starscream and Soundwave who look drastically different from their in-game incarnations. Megatron's toy bio specifies he frequently changes alt mode and upgrades himself, so I'm cool with his change in appearance. I'm not sure why Shockwave went from a flier to a tank, but I doubt he cares about aesthetics and simply scans whatever alt mode is most logical at the time. Breakdown presumably upgraded from his prior smaller form after battling big bots like Omega Supreme or starting his rivalry with Bulkhead; not a huge stretch. Soundwave's change baffles me, since he can apparently only carry one minion (Laserbeak) at a time, rather than at least three (Rumble, Frenzy, Laserbeak) as he did in War for Cybertron; that merits some exploration. Starscream is vain and takes some pride in being former leader of the Seekers, so why not retain his prior appearance?


As for the larger issue of WFC/FOC/RotDS vs Prime, I'm still pretty firmly in the camp of considering the games a micro-continuity, rather than a direct prequel. Micro-continuities already exist in Prime with things like Tales of the Beast Hunters, and I'm confident that before Robots in Disguise is done there'll be more contradictions of canon (comics vs cartoon, toy bios) that further frustrate the unified picture. The Alex Irvine novels I'd rather disavow entirely; Retribution is a bit hard to fit in but at least it was enjoyable. The Covenant of Primus, for all its flaws, is still crucial for world building, and have no problem considering it part of the cartoon continuity. It certainly doesn't square with Rise of the Dark Spark, but that game has... well, a lot of other continuity issues. I'd still treat it as a sequel to War for Cybertron that just happens to have an animation error where Megatron is supposed to be.

I'm not gonna fight tooth and nail for one perspective or another, because while I occasionally whine about inconsistencies, I've enjoyed the media overall. If I were to define Aligned as anything, I'd see it as a collection of universal streams with a lot of similar events happening with slight differences. War for Cybertron is to Prime what The Wings Universe is to the G1 cartoon. Not exactly the same, but only because there are toys to be sold, rather than because of intentionally muddying the storyline.