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"Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

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"Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby OptimusDave » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:00 am

Cybertron & Unicron: Scale in the Real World

Part 1: Overview, Calculations, Size
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVMhri5Hw5E

Part 2: Touchdown & Extinction Level Events
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhmVfWtzWP4

Campaign Guide: Cybertron drawn to scale with the Earth & the Moon; Cybertronian Cities; etcetera
http://picasaweb.google.com/firegigas/T ... aignGuide#

Please take a look if this sort of thing interests you. It's surprising to realize what size Unicron & Cybertron really are, and what would happen if they touched down on Earth.

Commentary:
BikerTrashWolf made the excellent remark that I neglected plate tectonics - setting foot on the planet, Unicron would be stepping on the plates which are kind of floating on squishy magma. Volcanoes and earthquakes would abound, send the world into darkness from the ash given off, and even if Unicron was defeated (hah), Earth would face a level of specie extinction not seen since ... well, a long, long time ago.

Also, please note that I don't use Cybertron Supreme Class Starscream's cartoon size, but rather the actual size of the toy in relation to other toys, in the example of a large Transformer.
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Re: "Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby Auto Bot » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:45 am

Interesting that someone took to the effort of doing a video on the issue of scale for these "living" planets.

It was so dragging to have to listen to 9 full minutes of computing elementary arithmetic. I thought the number crunching would take less than 30 seconds to explain. It was too late when i realized the meat of the show is in the second video only. My advice is to skip the first video entirely.

I have some thoughts about the close encounter of these worlds. Just ideas. I'm not saying i can be accurate or anything. Sort a few bits of contribution.

Unicron and Cybertron are too tinee-winee when compared to the Moon. Much less to the Earth. I thought either of them will be destroyed if they really come near to Earth.

IF, say Unicron, chose to approach Earth in a manageable speed, he will probably be ripped to shreds way before actually touching the atmostphere. There is this gravitational zone around a planet, that for a certain distance, a body of a certain size will disintegrate before coming too near. I forgot what the zone is called. Or the exact parameters about it. Just take for example the situation around planet Saturn. If one of its tiny moons came too near, it will break up, and the pieces will join the planet's ring. Saturn's ring is made up of exactly these broken up orbiting bodies that came too close. That is why, for any planet, there is a zone around it that no moons can exist. The same analogy will apply to Unicron and Earth.

If, Unicron chose to approach Earth in a speedy manner, he would have broken up just the same. Let's assume for a moment that he can be fast enough to avoid disintegration before reaching the planet's surface. This means a speed of theoretically close to light speed. Parts of him would have burnt up. The rest would have striked the ground so hard, that none of the rest of him can remain intact.

I see no possibility of him ever standing on the ground, with his feet kicking up miles of dirt, and looking down to the human cities.

Another note. (May not be much related to this issue.)
Unicron and Cybertron are really small. Not big enough to be classified as planets. Not even planetisimals. At best, they'd be asteroid. And a small one, at that. There are numerous asteroids in the order of 500 miles in diameter or more. Cybertron will be like tiny space rocks compared to them.

That is, if this guy's computations were to be taken as accurate.

Also, none of them will ever be able to exhibit any significant gravitational force. Nobody, or no robots will be able to stand on the surface of either of them, without some sort of hook and strap, or some magnetic boots.
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Re: "Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby OptimusDave » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:13 pm

Skip to 2nd Video:
I love the comment that the computations should have taken 30 seconds to demonstrate, and that the meat is really what people need and want. I'll work towards that in the future. Please follow his advice and skip to the 2nd video - you'll only be missing the part where I talk about what it would be like to stand on Unicron's hand and gaze, over 100 miles away, at his face. That's really it

Gravitational Forces:
If we're talking about real-world physics I'd hazard an agreement with this. In fact Unicron couldn't exist. No matter in the universe, combined in any form known, could withstand the pressures of one of his arms attempting to move at the joint.

So, we have to assume it's all due to the metals he's made of, Unobtainium, or the metal that physicists would agree is "unobtainable." It's a term used to describe the metals Science Fictions writers come up with that couldn't really exist.

How Unicron & Cybertron could handle Earth's Gravity
I mentioned this in the video: Unicron & Cybertron's ability to manipulate gravity. We've seen Unicron sucking parts of planets apart in cartoons - I doubt it was a vacuum cleaner but rather manipulating gravity. Again, this is impossible as are the metals he's made of, but lets pretend.

Since Cybertron is so small compared to most planets, in its Matter Reclaimation process it pulls apart bits of planets and ingests them in The Abyss, as mentioned (how does Cybertron in the cartoons do it? I have no idea.) Unicron does much the same, only with a voracious appetite.

Given this, I think they can manipulate gravity around them well enough to touch down on most planets - Jupiter and Saturn I'm not sure - not just due to their gravity but their composition.

Plate Tectonics
To really touch down on Earth would require Unicron or Cybertron to deliberately "float", or they'd sink into the Earth. I have no idea how to calculate how much they'd weigh, especially since that sounds as though I'd need to immerse something in water to find it's volume, and there's no way I'm doing that, especially since these toys are full of holes and cavities, not just easily water damaged. If someone cares to speculate given their diameter as a planetoid, be my guest.

Planets or Not Planets:
This, unfortunately, is subjective. I doubt Cybertronians would be willing to say they don't come from a Planet, even though by human terms they don't. In my fiction Cybertronians classify anything as a Planet if it has some form of life on it. All others are space rocks, and planetoids are larger, spherical ones such as Mercury, Mars & Venus. Jupiter is considered something else, being a gas giant. It's their science, not ours, partially built upon the idea that their home is a planet, when it's really not.

Summary:
At any rate, before I considered all of this I guessed that Cybertron was one quarter the size of our Moon. I was off by - lots - but I was close.

Thank you for your comments about the gravitational field around planets, because that is an essential component as plate tectonics that I missed entirely.
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Re: "Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby OptimusDave » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:26 pm

Question: Should I attempt a 5 minute video wherein I spend 30 seconds going over size calculations (too fast for anyone to really follow with a calculator but slow enough for people to get the idea) and then just talk about what would happen if they touched down?

...or is the subject adequately beaten to death?
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Re: "Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby Auto Bot » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:53 pm

You're welcome.

It's a good job you did there. I was particularly amazed at how you were able to identify the cities on Primus toy. And made maps out of them too. I didn't even know the toy had that much level of details until i saw your video.

About the fictional super metal and gravity manipulation, you got a point there. My head was sucked too deep into real world science again, that i forgot this is fiction. The mere existence of Unicron and Cybertron alone is already fiction. So it's actually a good mix of real science and fictional science that you have cooked up here. Not too extreme on either side.

Another idea popped into my head again. Ok, here goes. Hold your breath as i'll dive into real world science again. Unicron sucks in foreign materials into its Matter Reclamation port. I can think of 2 possible outcomes of this process. First, is the typical matter-into-pure-energy conversion, like the cartoon. This will sustain him for a long time without new inputs. Small amount of matter can be disintegrated into a very large amount of energy. Second idea is that, matter accumulates in the Reclamation chamber. More and more matter is sucked in. But the size of Unicron remains unchanged. This will result into increasing density. Unless processed matter were periodically ejected, (such as cars produce fumes, humans defecate), there will come a point when Unicron himself will become so dense, that he risk collapsing into a black hole.

Here's another idea. About the tectonics. The solid crust floating over liquid mantle may not be as simple as a solid plate floating on a pond of water. The "liquid-like" behavior of the mantle may well be something of thick goo-like semi-solid state. Movement of this substance, as well as the "solid" crust, is extremely slow and gradual. So, if Unicron were to step on Earth's surface, i think most likely, he will not sink. Maybe the crust may deform to a certain degree. But it won't be as quick as to give way and let Unicron's giant foot sink in.

About the size of Cybertron, i have no idea about it at all. So i'm gonna accept yours, as is. For now. Your result seems to be pretty convincing. In my own opinion, i think the size may well be closer to your original estimate, than the quarter-moon size.
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Re: "Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby Auto Bot » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:00 pm

OptimusDave wrote:Question: Should I attempt a 5 minute video wherein I spend 30 seconds going over size calculations (too fast for anyone to really follow with a calculator but slow enough for people to get the idea) and then just talk about what would happen if they touched down?

...or is the subject adequately beaten to death?


I think your two-part video is ok as it is. For those who wants to go to the "meat", they may follow my advice to skip video-1. For those who are amused by a more lengthy feature, they can consume both videos.

Do not be bothered too much by my "30 seconds" comment. I am in no way trying to set a time limit to the calculation part. What i was trying to point out was, you can do a quick ratio, and then present the results outright. Pointing out which part is compared to what part. Without going into the number crunching details.

You can try out that method in your future videos. :)
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Re: "Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby ThunderThruster » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:40 pm

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i was under the impression that cybertron and unicron were much bigger, especially as in the G1 episode 'Megatrons master plan' cybertron was space bridged to the moon. if cybertron were as small as you say it would never have had such devastating effects on earth!
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Re: "Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby Tekka » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:44 pm

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That would be The Ultimate Doom. Megatron's Master Plan was the one where the Autobots get shot into the sun.
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Re: "Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby ThunderThruster » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:17 pm

Weapon: Twin Shoulder-Mounted Rocket Launchers
Tekka wrote:That would be The Ultimate Doom. Megatron's Master Plan was the one where the Autobots get shot into the sun.


oops, my mistake!
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Re: "Sense of Scale" : Unicron & Cybertron in the Real World

Postby OptimusDave » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:06 pm

Auto Bot:
It's a good job you did there. I was particularly amazed at how you were able to identify the cities on Primus toy. And made maps out of them too. I didn't even know the toy had that much level of details until i saw your video.
Official fiction, surprisingly, does not list many cities (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I ended up having to find an old Transformers MUD manual and read through all of the descriptions to try to accurately place names.

It was really a necessity to be able to say exactly where the players might go. Even before I bought Cybertron on eBay, my players (which are all 3 of my daughters) didn't want to return to Earth. Once I was armed with the toy they had great fun deciding where to go, which necessitated me remembering what building was what, let alone what city held what, which meant I had to make some maps. As they explore, the labeled areas get filled in.

In turn, I had to figure out how big Cybertron was, because once it came time for Cybertron to autonomously shift to another solar system to engage in Matter Reclamaition, I had to be able to describe it all.
Auto Bot:
About the fictional super metal and gravity manipulation, you got a point there. My head was sucked too deep into real world science again, that i forgot this is fiction. The mere existence of Unicron and Cybertron alone is already fiction. So it's actually a good mix of real science and fictional science that you have cooked up here. Not too extreme on either side.
I try to keep things in the realm of plausability, as Walt Disney said.

Auto Bot:
... Matter Reclamation ... 2 possible outcomes of this process. First, is the typical matter-into-pure-energy conversion, like the cartoon. Small amount of matter can be disintegrated into a very large amount of energy. Second idea is that, matter accumulates in the Reclamation chamber. More and more matter is sucked in. But the size of Unicron remains unchanged. This will result into increasing density ...
In our fiction option 1 happens, but either could be going on. If you accept Mass Factoring <?> whatever the term is for what G1 Soundwave & Megatron can do, where parts become smaller (which I just can't accept because if that were possible, they could theoretically make a near limitless number of parts smaller and transform, like the All Spark in the 2007 Movie, into anything they want at any time - and damaging these systems would be odd - it would be like some kind of living TARDIS, constantly morphing) I suppose Option 2 makes sense as well.

Auto Bot:
Here's another idea. About the tectonics. The solid crust floating over liquid mantle may not be as simple as a solid plate floating on a pond of water. The "liquid-like" behavior of the mantle may well be something of thick goo-like semi-solid state. Movement of this substance, as well as the "solid" crust, is extremely slow and gradual. So, if Unicron were to step on Earth's surface, i think most likely, he will not sink. Maybe the crust may deform to a certain degree. But it won't be as quick as to give way and let Unicron's giant foot sink in.
That sounds more accurate - earthquakes would rock over that corner of the Earth like a ripple, but he wouldn't have enough weight to just sink anymore than the continents themselves do, even with much greater pressure per square mile. We'd need to know how much Unicron weighs and get someone who knows more about physics :P

Auto Bot:About the size of Cybertron, i have no idea about it at all. So i'm gonna accept yours, as is. For now. Your result seems to be pretty convincing. In my own opinion, i think the size may well be closer to your original estimate, than the quarter-moon size.
I wanted that to be true, too, so I figured out how big the moon was and went backwards and found out that the buildings, at that point, make no sense. Like the Earth, things should be much smaller and condensed on the toy for that to look right. *shrugs* But I found out it was still cool once I figured out what happens when these dudes touch down.

Auto Bot:I think your two-part video is ok as it is. For those who wants to go to the "meat", they may follow my advice to skip video-1. For those who are amused by a more lengthy feature, they can consume both videos.

Do not be bothered too much by my "30 seconds" comment. I am in no way trying to set a time limit to the calculation part. What i was trying to point out was, you can do a quick ratio, and then present the results outright. Pointing out which part is compared to what part. Without going into the number crunching details.

You can try out that method in your future videos.

Still, I appreciate the realization of how to present material.

I'm off to eat food! Thank you so much for writing.

And yes, G1 Cybertron was big enough to affect gravity, which makes the drawings of it make less sense, as you could see everything clearly, and then the disasterous 1986 movie makes less sense when you see Galvatron on Unicron, who then claws Cybertron. In other words, the official G1 cartoons did such a horrendous job at understanding and representing scale, it is better to discount them and use them only as inspiration.
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