The Energon Pub

Here's something that always bothered me, and if one of you has an answer or theory, I'd like to here it.

We all know from the begining Planet Cybertron was in a state of permanent blackout, a chared battered, relic of a once great planet.

During the course of the origional comic book and cartoon series, it was constantly brought back from the brink of doom, but never by much.

Unicron nearly destroyed it, which is another question, if Primus was his mortal enemy, why did he tell Galvatron he was considering sparing Cybertron? I always figured at the time he didn't know.

But anyhow, in 1 year the Autobots resurfaced the planet, which in it's self is an amazing feet, and most of the battles where contained to either brief firefights or taken off the planet all together.

Now follow me here, we have G1, The Japanesse Trilogy, and Beast Wars. Disreguarding "The Rebirth" these are set as an ongoing story, on leads to the next...

In HEADMASTERS, Cybertron is destroyed, left as a few chared pieces. Rodimus took the surviving Autobots with him to find a new planet, and put immediate comand in the hands of Fortress.

In the rest of the Japanesse series, the battles are all fought in space, Earth, or any number of other planets.

Then in Beast Wars, Cybertron is right there plain as day

Now I heard once that it was the Decepticons who rebuilt the planet, I don't know if this is true or not. But I'd like to either read this story or watch the episode.

But my question is, even if you don't consider the 3 story lines that I mentioned as consecutive, just in general, what do you think about this?

Liege Evilmus wrote:Here's something that always bothered me, and if one of you has an answer or theory, I'd like to here it.

We all know from the begining Planet Cybertron was in a state of permanent blackout, a chared battered, relic of a once great planet.

During the course of the origional comic book and cartoon series, it was constantly brought back from the brink of doom, but never by much.

Unicron nearly destroyed it, which is another question, if Primus was his mortal enemy, why did he tell Galvatron he was considering sparing Cybertron? I always figured at the time he didn't know.

But anyhow, in 1 year the Autobots resurfaced the planet, which in it's self is an amazing feet, and most of the battles where contained to either brief firefights or taken off the planet all together.

Now follow me here, we have G1, The Japanesse Trilogy, and Beast Wars. Disreguarding "The Rebirth" these are set as an ongoing story, on leads to the next...

In HEADMASTERS, Cybertron is destroyed, left as a few chared pieces. Rodimus took the surviving Autobots with him to find a new planet, and put immediate comand in the hands of Fortress.

In the rest of the Japanesse series, the battles are all fought in space, Earth, or any number of other planets.

Then in Beast Wars, Cybertron is right there plain as day

Now I heard once that it was the Decepticons who rebuilt the planet, I don't know if this is true or not. But I'd like to either read this story or watch the episode.

But my question is, even if you don't consider the 3 story lines that I mentioned as consecutive, just in general, what do you think about this?

This should probably be in the TV forum, but it's a legitimate question.

I think the problem is a simple continuity problem. The Japanese exclusive series ignore the events in "Rebirth," while the North American series ignore the events of the JP exclusives. Thus, the Cybertron you see in BW is the Cybertron the is restored in "Rebirth".

Let's add 2 more continuities to the mix:

In the Cybertron (2005) series it became Primus with the Omega Lock and 3 planet keys, and the Autobot Matrix of Leadership energy. Once the 4 keys were re-inserted it became a paradise.

Now in the movie (2007) we see Cybertron as a wasteland destroyed by the ravages of war.

I think continuities don't follow each other, each one is set in it's own time & space; anything can and will happen to their home.

jaws wrote:Let's add 2 more continuities to the mix:

In the Cybertron (2005) series it became Primus with the Omega Lock and 3 planet keys, and the Autobot Matrix of Leadership energy. Once the 4 keys were re-inserted it became a paradise.

Now in the movie (2007) we see Cybertron as a wasteland destroyed by the ravages of war.

I think continuities don't follow each other, each one is set in it's own time & space; anything can and will happen to their home.

Yeppers! Although, I think that most people consider the "real" TF universe to follow the G1->BW->BM->Transtech(*sigh* someday) chronology.

I was gonna mention the Movie, and the Unicron Trilogy, but to me after the end of the Beast Era, the series produced where just either one shots or did such a good job of contradicting themselves that I myself hardly count them for anything beyond some stories.

However mentioning the Movie, it does bring us back to the topic, with The AllSpark gone, is Cybertron now dead in that franchise as well?

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Also, I figured the TV or general discusion forums would be more fitting, but I wanted to here from people on this and this is the best room for that!

As Primus is now a toy of Cybertron, I was hoping this would be bending and not breaking a rule.

Now I remember watching the first few eps of the fourth 80's TV series where the headmasters and targetmasters appear. At the end of it Galvatron and the Decpticons have taken control of the planet and four like 5 minutes all the Autobots were dead. Then Spike activated the plasma energy chamber (I think) which revived the Autobots, drove off the Decepticons and their Hive allies and brought about a second Golden Age of Cybertron. So I guess that just adds more confusion to this area of discussion.

I really wish that someone would just sit down and do an offical time line.

One thing that might answer your question Leige is TransFormers: The Ultimate Guide. In it, it states that even if you completely destroy Unicron's phyisical body in any given universe, he will still eventually renerate. This would also be true of Primus, who is Cybertron. Just because the planet is in pieces, does not mean it can't reform, since it is the corporial body of Primus himself.

Your talking about "The Rebirth" story, mostly story is pretty much dismissed by everyone as it was Hasbro's last ditch attempt to include as many characters as they could into a very short story befor the show was pulled.

It could have been adapted easily into the JP series, but they (wisely) omitted the nebulons from the story and kinda rehashed them in the MasterForce series with the human headmaster jrs.

There is an easy way to make sense of alot of the TF one shot series though. Beast Wars had alot of timetampering that breifly altered events in history.

To ME, RID, and the Unicron Trilogy, are the tellings of those altered events.

How I'll work TFA into this is still a question though?

The best thing to do is to consider the transformers multiverse.

We are told that Primus exists in all universes at the same time, while Unicron can only exist in one at a time, and warps between them. I think I heard this in the comics forum.

There are loads of different continuities, but since I don't know the comics very well, I'll leave that to Tramp when he shows up.


Continuity 1:

G1
BW
BM
Transtech

( I think)

Continuity 2:

Armada
Energon
Cybertron

Continuity 3:

Movie

Continuity 4:

Animated


I've stuck to US series, cos that's what I'm limited to.

In continuity 1, Cybertron is not Primus. Primus seems to be more of an ideal, more like Christianity or most other human religions.

It's only in continuity 2 that Primus is Cybertron.

Of course, everything I've said completely ignores Japanese and comic series.

Tramp wrote:One thing that might answer your question Leige is TransFormers: The Ultimate Guide. In it, it states that even if you completely destroy Unicron's phyisical body in any given universe, he will still eventually renerate. This would also be true of Primus, who is Cybertron. Just because the planet is in pieces, does not mean it can't reform, since it is the corporial body of Primus himself.

Thats a very good response, but if Primus could regenerate, why did Cybertron sit for well more than millions of years rotting during season 1&2 of G1.

If it's because it didn't have the energon to do so, then where did it come from in the time between HeadMasters, which litteraly had the planet looking like half an apple core, and BeastWars?

And if Primus started from scratch, how would the Cybertronians call it by Cybertron and not something else, and how would that explain all the through backs in Beast Machines to Cybertron's beginings?

In G1through Beast Wars/[i]Beast Machines, yes, Cybertronj is indeed Primus. THis is true for the cartoon and comic books. The old Marvel comics were the first to reveal his existance, and since then, he has become an indellible part of TF lore in G1 and beyond. [i]TransFormers: the Ultimate Guide[i] goes into more detail about nhim and Unicron, and I highly recommend you check it out.

The Master Blaster wrote:The best thing to do is to consider the transformers multiverse.

We are told that Primus exists in all universes at the same time, while Unicron can only exist in one at a time, and warps between them. I think I heard this in the comics forum.

There are loads of different continuities, but since I don't know the comics very well, I'll leave that to Tramp when he shows up.


Continuity 1:

G1
BW
BM
Transtech

( I think)

Continuity 2:

Armada
Energon
Cybertron

Continuity 3:

Movie

Continuity 4:

Animated


I've stuck to US series, cos that's what I'm limited to.

In continuity 1, Cybertron is not Primus. Primus seems to be more of an ideal, more like Christianity or most other human religions.

It's only in continuity 2 that Primus is Cybertron.

Of course, everything I've said completely ignores Japanese and comic series.

In the Marvel books it is stated that Unicron exists in the astrial plain with Primus, and they also show (briefly) that Cybertron is Primus.

Tramp wrote:In G1through Beast Wars/[i]Beast Machines, yes, Cybertronj is indeed Primus. THis is true for the cartoon and comic books. The old Marvel comics were the first to reveal his existance, and since then, he has become an indellible part of TF lore in G1 and beyond. [i]TransFormers: the Ultimate Guide[i] goes into more detail about nhim and Unicron, and I highly recommend you check it out.

I have, and it's still a head scratcher.

I guess in the long run that this could always just be coughed up to "It's a cartoon" But I'd like to find a better excuse than that.

Especialy if there is something stating just exactly who rebuilt Cybertron.

Liege Evilmus wrote:

Tramp wrote:One thing that might answer your question Leige is TransFormers: The Ultimate Guide. In it, it states that even if you completely destroy Unicron's phyisical body in any given universe, he will still eventually renerate. This would also be true of Primus, who is Cybertron. Just because the planet is in pieces, does not mean it can't reform, since it is the corporial body of Primus himself.

Thats a very good response, but if Primus could regenerate, why did Cybertron sit for well more than millions of years rotting during season 1&2 of G1.

If it's because it didn't have the energon to do so, then where did it come from in the time between HeadMasters, which litteraly had the planet looking like half an apple core, and BeastWars?

And if Primus started from scratch, how would the Cybertronians call it by Cybertron and not something else, and how would that explain all the through backs in Beast Machines to Cybertron's beginings?

Very simple, most of his essense had been transferred to his people accross the multiverse, and into the Matrix. Unlike Unicron, who constantly fed on other worlds to sustain himself, Primus existed for his people, they harvested his energy and the planet's natural resources. It takes time, a long time for those resources to replenish. If you have read War Within Cybertron has a transforming substructure to allow the planet itself to reformat and rebuild itself.

Liege Evilmus wrote:

Tramp wrote:In G1through Beast Wars/[i]Beast Machines, yes, Cybertronj is indeed Primus. THis is true for the cartoon and comic books. The old Marvel comics were the first to reveal his existance, and since then, he has become an indellible part of TF lore in G1 and beyond. [i]TransFormers: the Ultimate Guide[i] goes into more detail about nhim and Unicron, and I highly recommend you check it out.

I have, and it's still a head scratcher.

I guess in the long run that this could always just be coughed up to "It's a cartoon" But I'd like to find a better excuse than that.

Especialy if there is something stating just exactly who rebuilt Cybertron.

Who rebuilt Cybertron? I would say Primus himself pulled his body back together.

Tramp wrote:

Liege Evilmus wrote:

Tramp wrote:One thing that might answer your question Leige is TransFormers: The Ultimate Guide. In it, it states that even if you completely destroy Unicron's phyisical body in any given universe, he will still eventually renerate. This would also be true of Primus, who is Cybertron. Just because the planet is in pieces, does not mean it can't reform, since it is the corporial body of Primus himself.

Thats a very good response, but if Primus could regenerate, why did Cybertron sit for well more than millions of years rotting during season 1&2 of G1.

If it's because it didn't have the energon to do so, then where did it come from in the time between HeadMasters, which litteraly had the planet looking like half an apple core, and BeastWars?

And if Primus started from scratch, how would the Cybertronians call it by Cybertron and not something else, and how would that explain all the through backs in Beast Machines to Cybertron's beginings?

Very simple, most of his essense had been transferred to his people accross the multiverse, and into the Matrix. Unlike Unicron, who constantly fed on other worlds to sustain himself, Primus existed for his people, they harvested his energy and the planet's natural resources. It takes time, a long time for those resources to replenish. If you have read War Within Cybertron has a transforming substructure to allow the planet itself to reformat and rebuild itself.

I'll give it to ya, cause I do recall that in the animated series it was stated that a piece of Cybertron would stay with all the AutoBots(i think), so yeah you are onto something here.

I just can't acept the fact that for all that time it stayed rotting due to lack of energon, then in roughly 300 years it rebuilt itself from seemingly nothing.

In TF Energon, Unicron started doing something similar, but it didn't realy start to happen quickly without outside help.

You've obviously read more of the comics than I have(I working on catching up) so can you site any instace of an outside party helping Cybertron get restored?

I don't recall where, but I heard once it was actualy the Decepticons that did this?

Thre hundred years where he wasn't inhabited by two warring factions vying for energy. Three hundred years where he could replenish is energy and heal in peace. Yeah, It sounds quite possible. The only comics reference to any "outside" help in replenishing Cybertron, is in the Marvel comics,and that really isn't an "outside entitiy" It was The Last Autobot, one of the Original 13, and, for all intents and purposes, an incarnmation of Primus himself. The Last Autobot restored Cybertron after the "destruction" of Unicron. So, no, there really is no reference to a true outside force used to rebuild Cybertron. For one thing, the only time Cybertron has ever been completely blown up is in the Japanese series.

As you said with Energon, Unicron rebuilds himself slowly at first until he gets help. Primus too would require a lot of time to rebuild himself without help, and three hundred years is a long time.

Guess that depends on your point of veiw, to me in the grander scheme of things, 300 years are nothing but seconds to us.

Then again, time is relative.

Liege Evilmus wrote:Guess that depends on your point of veiw, to me in the grander scheme of things, 300 years are nothing but seconds to us.

Then again, time is relative.

Yes, but compared to how quickly Unicron was able to rebuild himself, it is a lot longer. With help, Unicron took only ten years to rebuild himself. Primus to thirty times longer than that. In the Dreamwave G1 comics, about 1,205 vorns (100,015 years) after the departure of the Ark, Primus forced all of his "children" into forced stasis lock bringing an end to the conflict for 46, 952 Vorns (3,897,016 years) in order to allow the planet to replenish itself. after 36 vorns (2,988 years) form the beginning of the Great Shutdown, Shockwave was the first to reactivate, and he then went about reawakening the rest of Cybertron's inhabitants. Following the Great Shutdown, Shockwave ruled Cybertron, uniting both Autobots and Decepticons, secretly manipultiating things to his own twisted advantage and conducting many experiments, and while "officially" disbanding he Decepticon army, he secretly kepot Decepticon loyalists in reserve as agents, and used easily manipulated Autobots as a new, though completey ineffectual, High Council. Though there were resistance cells against Shockwave's reign, it wasn't until the modern era, as recorded in War and Peace, that Shockwave's true machinations would be revealed, and he would be removed from power, and thus, the war would return to Cybertron.

So, basically, it took almost 3,000 years for Cybertron to replenish its energy to the point where it could once again sustain its inhabitants, and another 3,000,000 plus years of "peace" to fully recover.

From the TF wiki:

The destruction of Cybertron is probably the single most famous event from the Headmasters anime, and is well-known even among those fans who have not seen the series themselves. It was rebuilt during the Japanese Generation 2 storyline, so don't do crying about how the Beast Era can't possibly be in Japanese continuity or anything like that.

check out the original entry here:

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Cybe ... %2C_Part_2

Tramp wrote:

Liege Evilmus wrote:Guess that depends on your point of veiw, to me in the grander scheme of things, 300 years are nothing but seconds to us.

Then again, time is relative.

Yes, but compared to how quickly Unicron was able to rebuild himself, it is a lot longer. With help, Unicron took only ten years to rebuild himself. Primus to thirty times longer than that. In the Dreamwave G1 comics, about 1,205 vorns (100,015 years) after the departure of the Ark, Primus forced all of his "children" into forced stasis lock bringing an end to the conflict for 46, 952 Vorns (3,897,016 years) in order to allow the planet to replenish itself. after 36 vorns (2,988 years) form the beginning of the Great Shutdown, Shockwave was the first to reactivate, and he then went about reawakening the rest of Cybertron's inhabitants. Following the Great Shutdown, Shockwave ruled Cybertron, uniting both Autobots and Decepticons, secretly manipultiating things to his own twisted advantage and conducting many experiments, and while "officially" disbanding he Decepticon army, he secretly kepot Decepticon loyalists in reserve as agents, and used easily manipulated Autobots as a new, though completey ineffectual, High Council. Though there were resistance cells against Shockwave's reign, it wasn't until the modern era, as recorded in War and Peace, that Shockwave's true machinations would be revealed, and he would be removed from power, and thus, the war would return to Cybertron.

So, basically, it took almost 3,000 years for Cybertron to replenish its energy to the point where it could once again sustain its inhabitants, and another 3,000,000 plus years of "peace" to fully recover.

Which is still alot longer than the 300 mentioned. If all the Bots on Cybertron where in forced stasis, wouldn't it be the same thing as a Cybertron not being populated at all, hence giving no waring factions a chance to interupt the healing process?

Now believe me I'm enjoying this debate, but I have to say, the comics, although good stories, do contradict most of the G1 animated lure. That right there is why I'm not so ready to accept your otherwise valid points.

Think about it, was Optimus Prime Orion Pax, or Optonitrix(I know I just murdered that spelling)? Was the faction name Decepticon something initialy taken by the war class line of robots, or is it something Megatron invented?

This can go on and on, but with the number of retellings to the TF continum, which story is the right story?

Although that is a whole other bag of bolts in itself, the fact of the matter is that pretty much every TF story begins with Cybertron on the brink of doom. Now, do we include all facets of these stories, or just select 1 and go from there.

Some may be happy with the 1, but I myself can't trust the entirety of all this to Simon Furman, a great writer, who I respect, but there are to many things in his stories that I just don't agree with, ie BombShell being Cyclonus.

I myself see all these tellings as a puzzle, and am just looking to piece it together, and I know better than to trust just 1 media company or writer to do that alone since so many are involved. I mean whose to say whats "official" when anyone can write a story?

waaaaghlord wrote:From the TF wiki:

The destruction of Cybertron is probably the single most famous event from the Headmasters anime, and is well-known even among those fans who have not seen the series themselves. It was rebuilt during the Japanese Generation 2 storyline, so don't do crying about how the Beast Era can't possibly be in Japanese continuity or anything like that.

check out the original entry here:

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Cybe ... %2C_Part_2

Now we're getting somewhere! So my next question would be is there any G2 story documenting this event? Not that I doubt it, because I knew it happened, I just wanna know who did it!

The reason why there are conflicts between the comics and the cartoon is that they essentially are alternate realities. Different continuities in a larger multiverse. The key thing sthat they all have in common though is Unicron and Primus. Primus being the creator of the TransFomer race, Unicron the Chaosbringer seeking to consume all of reality, the Quintessans enslaving the early TransFormers and splitting them into two branches for sale as slaves—Consuer class and military class—before being driven off at least twice. IF you haven't already, read TransFormers: the Ultimate Guide It goes through the every G1 continuity and sets a difinitive one as well based upon mainly the DW comics which mainly combined the cartoon with toy continuities as well as Beast Wars. It explains Primus and Unicron, as well as the Quintessans, and all of their invoilvement with the development of the TransFormers as a race, and fixes the little contradictions in the origins of Cybertron and the TransFormers, which are considered the same for all continuities.

Right, here's the translated version of the G2 manga:

http://tfarchive.com/comics/japanese/g2manga.php

Seibertron appears to be back and under Destron control, but no mention of how this came about. The mangas are generally considered to be in canon with the Japanese animes.

Other than this and the TV magazine pages (untranslated) does anyone know of any other Japanese produced fiction for G2? I'm pretty sure that there wasn't an anime, we've all heard of Headmasters, Masterforce, Victory and Zone and I'm pretty sure that a G2 show couldn't have stayed under the radar this long

waaaaghlord wrote:Right, here's the translated version of the G2 manga:

http://tfarchive.com/comics/japanese/g2manga.php

Seibertron appears to be back and under Destron control, but no mention of how this came about. The mangas are generally considered to be in canon with the Japanese animes.

Other than this and the TV magazine pages (untranslated) does anyone know of any other Japanese produced fiction for G2? I'm pretty sure that there wasn't an anime, we've all heard of Headmasters, Masterforce, Victory and Zone and I'm pretty sure that a G2 show couldn't have stayed under the radar this long

Thanks for that through back of pure cheese! The acuracy of the rendering of those figures is great, and realy makes me apreciate just how far (thankfuly) everything has progressed in the world of TFs!