The Energon Pub

I was just thinking about somthing in my English class at school when we where talking about narration. In the two TF movies, Optimus has started and finnished each movie with a narration. Obviously, the prologue reveals whats going to happen in the movie. But do the epilogues reveal the plot of the sequel? Or is it just coincidence tht Optimus's voice over and the "What I've done" song from the first movie relate exactly to ROTF. The What I've done, I think was like telling that Sam was going to do somthing wrong in ROTF (which he did.) And Optimus's narration talked about hiding among earth's people, and they where, for a long frekn time (which was revealed in ROTF.) And at the end of ROTF he says "Races united by a history long forgotten." Could he mean litterally, like a techno organic, or a pretender, like Alice or Sari from TFA? We've already seen concept art for TF 3 that look like techno organics or somthing like that. Maybe I'm reading way too into this, but what do you think?

i don't really know.

it could be taken as a more hinted direction, giving something more subtle to ponder on before the next film arives. you could look at it in what you are describing, although reading far too much into it could lead to headaches lol.

in all honesty, yes there is more than the coincidental linking between the epilogues and the ending music/credit roll, but again that could be considered into looking more between the lines, but then again not..

argh just thinking about it is making my brain turn to mush...ahh sprokkitz

Warhound wrote:i don't really know.

it could be taken as a more hinted direction, giving something more subtle to ponder on before the next film arives. you could look at it in what you are describing, although reading far too much into it could lead to headaches lol.

in all honesty, yes there is more than the coincidental linking between the epilogues and the ending music/credit roll, but again that could be considered into looking more between the lines, but then again not..

argh just thinking about it is making my brain turn to mush...ahh sprokkitz

Ive been thinking alot today, no joke, while I was in math class at school I came up with a theory for time travel! No kidding, Im even going to make a topic on it. But really, the ending of the first movie just had so much to do with ROTF its almost like in TF3, the plot is going to be based of of Ne Divide,and the techno organic thing would probobly be the start of somthing new, hence, new divide.

For starters I didn't pay that much attention to the end credit song for either movie becuase I find the music in both movies to be lame, but as for the narrations by Prime, they are most likely trying to bridge the gap between the films.
At the end of the first movie Prime was saying if other Autobots get his signal to come to earth, but that is not the same as setting up ROTF by any means. It's not like foreshadowing. I know that indeed, more Autobots do indeed show up in ROTF, but it never says they arrived on earth from Seibertron or wherever, does it? So, it is concievable that the new Autobots could have been built on earth or all-sparked into existance on earth. I'm not saying that's the fact of what happened, I'm saying it's possible.
Aside from that, the plot of ROTF is that the Fallen is back looking for the sun destroyer, right? If PRime's narration doesn't mention the Fallen and/or the sun destroyer, then no, his narration does not reveal the plot at all, becuase at least for ROTF, the plot is not about technorganic things, but rather about the Fallen and the sun destroyer.
If you mean do they set up the third movie, maybe, but how much do we really want to think that the whole premise of TF3 is going to revolve around this 'pretender' thing that was in a couple of shots and then wasn't really mentioned or explained? Like, I get what you're talking about, and honestly, it wouldn't be that bad to me if they did try to make TF3 a technorganic deal, but I really love Beast Machines and that's the technorganic story I'd rather have than in a live action movie. It's just my opinion here, but I've loved Transformers for 25 years, and the live action movies have not made them interesting my me in general, so I am skeptical that such a small part of the overall mythos could really be brought to life by the third film.
Based on the premise that New Divide is talking about a divide being what it really is, a divide, like a separation or a split, I don't think that a technorganic union would really fill that definition. Afterall, a union and a split are the exact opposities of each other. It could just be that they have the rights to the song. But I'm really not trying to kill your theory at all. The deepest Transformer story ever told was Beast Machines. G1, Armada, everytthing else was just a cartoon that may have had some deeper meaning someplace but wasn't an integral part of the overall series, and I doubt that a series of films that relies solely on masturbation jokes, robot testicles and explosions is really going to have some deep meaning behind it.
If we criticise the films we're told that they're just summer action movies, afterall.

umm....yeah...what Dagon said..uhh..i think?

Dagon wrote:Based on the premise that New Divide is talking about a divide being what it really is, a divide, like a separation or a split, I don't think that a technorganic union would really fill that definition. Afterall, a union and a split are the exact opposities of each other. It could just be that they have the rights to the song.

I didnt mean it like that. I meant like the New Divide was like a split from ordinary TFs and they discover another race of TFs that have been divided. Look, over a few weeks, Ive been reding things from various TF universes that I didnt even know about. Like, I didnt know that there was a race of aliens on Cybertron before Primus came to be. But there where, Im just sayin. Maybe in TF3 the "core mythology" that was talked about is this idea.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Dagon wrote:Based on the premise that New Divide is talking about a divide being what it really is, a divide, like a separation or a split, I don't think that a technorganic union would really fill that definition. Afterall, a union and a split are the exact opposities of each other. It could just be that they have the rights to the song.

I didnt mean it like that. I meant like the New Divide was like a split from ordinary TFs and they discover another race of TFs that have been divided. Look, over a few weeks, Ive been reding things from various TF universes that I didnt even know about. Like, I didnt know that there was a race of aliens on Cybertron before Primus came to be. But there where, Im just sayin. Maybe in TF3 the "core mythology" that was talked about is this idea.

Ok, thanks for clearing up your inquiry, I guess. I think I see what you're asking about better, at least, and while I think that you could be right with what you're saying about the divide between races or groups of Transformers, I think it brings you to a place where you might have a hard time really getting behind TF 3 if pre Cybertronian life is the 'core mythology' they're talking about.

That stuff about pre-TF life on Cybertron isnt really core mythology, it was basically retconned in to G1 through the MArvel comics, and at that I think it was primarily or exclusively the English Marvel comics that did that. There was some stuff in G1 S3 about the Quintessons and stuff bringing life to/creating life on Cybertron. As neat as it might be to get that stuff in TF3, it would need to be toned down for the whole 'general viewing public' that we hear so much about when as TF fans we may not have liked the first two movies. You know, that 'general public' that ISN'T debating this stuff on line all the time but is some how completely responsible for 'saving' the franchise? But no, seriously, if that's the core mythos and they don't do it to your satisfaction, you know, just like if it's not the way you'd want it to come out or if they change it with/for no real reason, then you might become one of those of us who complain that certain things were changed or weren't the way you wanted them. I guess you'd become a G1-er .
I'm not trying to be a pud with this, but that's basically everyone's arguement right, that us G1 fans just cling too much to the old? Well, for some of us it's cause we like things that we like, and we like G1.
In truth, I think that the kind of backstory that you are suggesting, which would be real interesting, IMH,HO, is just too much backstory for the people who are going to go and see TF3 as a summer action movie.

Let's be honest for a change here, lots of people saw TF and ROTF, agreed. Some of them joined boards like this or entered the fandom. But I personally know many people who saw either or both TF films and thought they were just summer action movies, and not big-to-do TF movies the way we do on here. Lots of people don't care about the backstory, or the continuity (or lack thereof), or the plot (or lack thereof) or any of that. Those 'general viewers' didn't save this franchise, and while more and more people may become fans because of the movies, something like what you're talking about is possibly too deep for most.

Dagon wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Dagon wrote:Based on the premise that New Divide is talking about a divide being what it really is, a divide, like a separation or a split, I don't think that a technorganic union would really fill that definition. Afterall, a union and a split are the exact opposities of each other. It could just be that they have the rights to the song.

I didnt mean it like that. I meant like the New Divide was like a split from ordinary TFs and they discover another race of TFs that have been divided. Look, over a few weeks, Ive been reding things from various TF universes that I didnt even know about. Like, I didnt know that there was a race of aliens on Cybertron before Primus came to be. But there where, Im just sayin. Maybe in TF3 the "core mythology" that was talked about is this idea.

Ok, thanks for clearing up your inquiry, I guess. I think I see what you're asking about better, at least, and while I think that you could be right with what you're saying about the divide between races or groups of Transformers, I think it brings you to a place where you might have a hard time really getting behind TF 3 if pre Cybertronian life is the 'core mythology' they're talking about.

That stuff about pre-TF life on Cybertron isnt really core mythology, it was basically retconned in to G1 through the MArvel comics, and at that I think it was primarily or exclusively the English Marvel comics that did that. There was some stuff in G1 S3 about the Quintessons and stuff bringing life to/creating life on Cybertron. As neat as it might be to get that stuff in TF3, it would need to be toned down for the whole 'general viewing public' that we hear so much about when as TF fans we may not have liked the first two movies. You know, that 'general public' that ISN'T debating this stuff on line all the time but is some how completely responsible for 'saving' the franchise? But no, seriously, if that's the core mythos and they don't do it to your satisfaction, you know, just like if it's not the way you'd want it to come out or if they change it with/for no real reason, then you might become one of those of us who complain that certain things were changed or weren't the way you wanted them. I guess you'd become a G1-er .
I'm not trying to be a pud with this, but that's basically everyone's arguement right, that us G1 fans just cling too much to the old? Well, for some of us it's cause we like things that we like, and we like G1.
In truth, I think that the kind of backstory that you are suggesting, which would be real interesting, IMH,HO, is just too much backstory for the people who are going to go and see TF3 as a summer action movie.

Let's be honest for a change here, lots of people saw TF and ROTF, agreed. Some of them joined boards like this or entered the fandom. But I personally know many people who saw either or both TF films and thought they were just summer action movies, and not big-to-do TF movies the way we do on here. Lots of people don't care about the backstory, or the continuity (or lack thereof), or the plot (or lack thereof) or any of that. Those 'general viewers' didn't save this franchise, and while more and more people may become fans because of the movies, something like what you're talking about is possibly too deep for most.

I really dont give a crap abut story either. It'd be nice to have a good story though. I just think it would help it out some with the critics, but then again they always have somthing to complain about. Like in ROTF the plot was more believeable as far as it goes and it was more fleshed out than "robots looking for glasses on ebay" but critics still bashed it for having a "sloppy" story. Like this "it took Makayla a few minutes to get from the west coast to the east coast" it only takes 6 frekn hours to get from LA to New Jersey on a jet! Stupid crap like that.

SlyTF1 wrote:
I really dont give a crap abut story either. It'd be nice to have a good story though. I just think it would help it out some with the critics, but then again they always have somthing to complain about. Like in ROTF the plot was more believeable as far as it goes and it was more fleshed out than "robots looking for glasses on ebay" but critics still bashed it for having a "sloppy" story. Like this "it took Makayla a few minutes to get from the west coast to the east coast" it only takes 6 frekn hours to get from LA to New Jersey on a jet! Stupid crap like that.

Ok, but this whole core mythos thing or pre-TF life and stuff, that's part of the story. I understand what you're saying, but everytime you talk about not caring about the storyline, you either bring up new story ideas or complain that somebody else complains about the story, and you just said up there ^ that while you don't care about story, a good story would be nice.
For a lot of people, the story is important, and agree with the critics or not, it's obvious that they cared about the story. That's not entirely stupid crap, it's just what someone wanted out of the film. Like, you might be happy with just images of robo-punching for two hours, but that's you and your opinion. I don't knock you for having that opinion, I just don't share it.
I think that the biggest problem is that everyone whether they like the movies or not is capable of just turning every issue into its opposite. Like if someone says that ROTF made no sense they get internet screeched at that it was just an action movie, but if someone dismisses ROTF as just being an action movie then people cry that we're dismissing it and not taking it seriously. There's just no real way of winning.

Dagon wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:
I really dont give a crap abut story either. It'd be nice to have a good story though. I just think it would help it out some with the critics, but then again they always have somthing to complain about. Like in ROTF the plot was more believeable as far as it goes and it was more fleshed out than "robots looking for glasses on ebay" but critics still bashed it for having a "sloppy" story. Like this "it took Makayla a few minutes to get from the west coast to the east coast" it only takes 6 frekn hours to get from LA to New Jersey on a jet! Stupid crap like that.

Ok, but this whole core mythos thing or pre-TF life and stuff, that's part of the story. I understand what you're saying, but everytime you talk about not caring about the storyline, you either bring up new story ideas or complain that somebody else complains about the story, and you just said up there ^ that while you don't care about story, a good story would be nice.
For a lot of people, the story is important, and agree with the critics or not, it's obvious that they cared about the story. That's not entirely stupid crap, it's just what someone wanted out of the film. Like, you might be happy with just images of robo-punching for two hours, but that's you and your opinion. I don't knock you for having that opinion, I just don't share it.
I think that the biggest problem is that everyone whether they like the movies or not is capable of just turning every issue into its opposite. Like if someone says that ROTF made no sense they get internet screeched at that it was just an action movie, but if someone dismisses ROTF as just being an action movie then people cry that we're dismissing it and not taking it seriously. There's just no real way of winning.

I mean a giant robot movie with no plot would be just as good as one with one. Me personally, dont care. But AlOT of other people do. i just hate seeing people trying to make the TF movies so much of a big deal, so i want a good story in TF 3 to make everyone else just STFU.

I think that you might actually be onto something with this...kinda. I say that because I noticed when I was watching the other day that they use a bit of foreshadowing in the movie, or atleast I think. The scene where Bumblebee gets Sam from college and takes him to meet Optimus, they meet in a cemetery and the only 2 that set foot on the grounds are Optimus and Sam. Coincidentally, they are the 2 main characters in the movie who die, even though each is brought back to life. But seeing as how think thats a pretty basic writing scheme I wouldnt be suprised if they did use it in the ending credits. I mean why not it keeps us thinking about it.

Whiteout8 wrote:I think that you might actually be onto something with this...kinda. I say that because I noticed when I was watching the other day that they use a bit of foreshadowing in the movie, or atleast I think. The scene where Bumblebee gets Sam from college and takes him to meet Optimus, they meet in a cemetery and the only 2 that set foot on the grounds are Optimus and Sam. Coincidentally, they are the 2 main characters in the movie who die, even though each is brought back to life. But seeing as how think thats a pretty basic writing scheme I wouldnt be suprised if they did use it in the ending credits. I mean why not it keeps us thinking about it.

I noticed that too. I even made a topic on that on this site somthing-i-just-noticed-in-rotf-t62484.php But what about the headmasters? I was watching some G1 episodes, and in Rebirth part 2, Alpha Trion said somthing about uniting Cybertronians and humans with the Headmasters!

will anyone reveal the plot of the first 2?

SlyTF1 wrote:

Whiteout8 wrote:I think that you might actually be onto something with this...kinda. I say that because I noticed when I was watching the other day that they use a bit of foreshadowing in the movie, or atleast I think. The scene where Bumblebee gets Sam from college and takes him to meet Optimus, they meet in a cemetery and the only 2 that set foot on the grounds are Optimus and Sam. Coincidentally, they are the 2 main characters in the movie who die, even though each is brought back to life. But seeing as how think thats a pretty basic writing scheme I wouldnt be suprised if they did use it in the ending credits. I mean why not it keeps us thinking about it.

I noticed that too. I even made a topic on that on this site somthing-i-just-noticed-in-rotf-t62484.php But what about the headmasters? I was watching some G1 episodes, and in Rebirth part 2, Alpha Trion said somthing about uniting Cybertronians and humans with the Headmasters!

Im glad that someone else noticed that becasue I wasnt sure if it wasnt even there or if I was just the only one haha. But as far as the headmasters go I cant honsetly say I have no idea, Im quite the Novice to everything Transformers. Im mainy just into the movies but I'd like to get to know all the core mythology because Im sure that if I did I might be able to figure out a few more things

SlyTF1 wrote:

Whiteout8 wrote:I think that you might actually be onto something with this...kinda. I say that because I noticed when I was watching the other day that they use a bit of foreshadowing in the movie, or atleast I think. The scene where Bumblebee gets Sam from college and takes him to meet Optimus, they meet in a cemetery and the only 2 that set foot on the grounds are Optimus and Sam. Coincidentally, they are the 2 main characters in the movie who die, even though each is brought back to life. But seeing as how think thats a pretty basic writing scheme I wouldnt be suprised if they did use it in the ending credits. I mean why not it keeps us thinking about it.

I noticed that too. I even made a topic on that on this site somthing-i-just-noticed-in-rotf-t62484.php But what about the headmasters? I was watching some G1 episodes, and in Rebirth part 2, Alpha Trion said somthing about uniting Cybertronians and humans with the Headmasters!

Alpha Trion didn't say 'something' about uniting Transformers and humans, that was the entire point/plot of the Rebirth miniseries. It was fairly clear that that's what they were doing, and if you watched the episodes, I'm not really sure how you could have missed that, or only noticed it in passing.

Dagon wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Whiteout8 wrote:I think that you might actually be onto something with this...kinda. I say that because I noticed when I was watching the other day that they use a bit of foreshadowing in the movie, or atleast I think. The scene where Bumblebee gets Sam from college and takes him to meet Optimus, they meet in a cemetery and the only 2 that set foot on the grounds are Optimus and Sam. Coincidentally, they are the 2 main characters in the movie who die, even though each is brought back to life. But seeing as how think thats a pretty basic writing scheme I wouldnt be suprised if they did use it in the ending credits. I mean why not it keeps us thinking about it.

I noticed that too. I even made a topic on that on this site somthing-i-just-noticed-in-rotf-t62484.php But what about the headmasters? I was watching some G1 episodes, and in Rebirth part 2, Alpha Trion said somthing about uniting Cybertronians and humans with the Headmasters!

Alpha Trion didn't say 'something' about uniting Transformers and humans, that was the entire point/plot of the Rebirth miniseries. It was fairly clear that that's what they were doing, and if you watched the episodes, I'm not really sure how you could have missed that, or only noticed it in passing.

Actually he did...kind of.

In The Rebirth part 2, when Optimus Prime enters Vector Sigma to tak to Alpha Trion, he says and this is the exact quote: "Hear me Prime, a second Golden Age of Cybertron is almost at hand but whether this comes to pass depends on the merging of an Autobot's life with that of a human being."

So it could be theorized that in The Rebirth that the Headmasters and the Targetmasters were all part of Vector Sigma's plan to revitalize Cybertron.

Well, I was just watching somthing the other day, and I got an idea, what if the pretenders where built by the Primes by combining human DNA and Cybertronian DNA to work for them in trying to hide the Sun Harvester under the pyramids. Because knowing people, they would havbe defied them, and the Primes most likely wouldnt feel like doing it, so they had to somehow control the humans!

Cyberstrike wrote:

Dagon wrote:


Alpha Trion didn't say 'something' about uniting Transformers and humans, that was the entire point/plot of the Rebirth miniseries. It was fairly clear that that's what they were doing, and if you watched the episodes, I'm not really sure how you could have missed that, or only noticed it in passing.

Actually he did...kind of.

In The Rebirth part 2, when Optimus Prime enters Vector Sigma to tak to Alpha Trion, he says and this is the exact quote: "Hear me Prime, a second Golden Age of Cybertron is almost at hand but whether this comes to pass depends on the merging of an Autobot's life with that of a human being."

So it could be theorized that in The Rebirth that the Headmasters and the Targetmasters were all part of Vector Sigma's plan to revitalize Cybertron.

Ok, I see what you're saying. I don't remember the episode enough to be certain about the timing of when this line pops up, but it seems like A3 is talking about the *master process in general and possibly specifically the Daniel/Arcee pairing. What I meant was that A3 doesn't like, mention this human/Cybertronian pairing like, in passing, like it's just a casual mention or flippant idea. Regardless of what time it is in the miniseries that A3 says it, the human/Cybertronian coupling is the basis of the entire miniseries, and just the way I read it, the OP made it seem like it was just some casual reference or something that wasn't followed up in the episode. I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused, I was only trying to clarify.

Well, I was just watching somthing the other day, and I got an idea, what if the pretenders where built by the Primes by combining human DNA and Cybertronian DNA to work for them in trying to hide the Sun Harvester under the pyramids. Because knowing people, they would havbe defied them, and the Primes most likely wouldnt feel like doing it, so they had to somehow control the humans!

But then wouldn't this, which is a kinda interesting idea, mean that the Primes aren't as wonderful and benevolent as we are led to believe they are? Then basically the history of humanity is that some aliens reconfigured a number of early humans into slaves for the most part, to tend to their energy maker/super weapon. Aside from this, and I fully admit I'm not really clear on the matter, but wasn't the pretender in ROTF planted by the Decepticons? It's not like it was hanging around or was a real human...wasn't it sent after Sam on purpose?

Dagon wrote:But then wouldn't this, which is a kinda interesting idea, mean that the Primes aren't as wonderful and benevolent as we are led to believe they are? Then basically the history of humanity is that some aliens reconfigured a number of early humans into slaves for the most part, to tend to their energy maker/super weapon. Aside from this, and I fully admit I'm not really clear on the matter, but wasn't the pretender in ROTF planted by the Decepticons? It's not like it was hanging around or was a real human...wasn't it sent after Sam on purpose?

Thats the whole point. Im thinking that the 13 Primes where killed, but then their sparks where reincarnated into humans, since they're all mighty and stuff, and Sam just happens to be one of them. This also explains that recent news of why in TF3 the opening scene is 2 Decepticons trying to assasinate a couple of humans. I mean, "assasinate" means to kill some one important, they wouldnt assasinate some random guy. I know this will probobly be far off, but its the most creative thing I could think of, given the clues. And yes, Alice (the pretender) was sent to bring Sam to the Decepticons.

SlyTF1 wrote:Thats the whole point. Im thinking that the 13 Primes where killed

Wrong on two counts:

1. There were only 7 Primes. The mythos says there were 13 Original TRANSFORMERS, but I counted six Seekers when Wheelie pointed them out. So the Singularity is still true for the most part.

2. They weren't killed, the committed suicide in order to hide the Matrix from the Fallen.

SlyTF1 wrote:but then their sparks where reincarnated into humans, since they're all mighty and stuff, and Sam just happens to be one of them.

Sparks don't work that way. They are typically equated to a human soul, but unlike souls, Sparks have actual mass. Not only that, but they also contain the mind of the Transformer. And I don't mean personality traits, I mean the actual mind, memories and personality. If Sam had a Spark, he'd have pointed it out.

As for Pretenders, the original concept was a Transformer would disguise itself as a human in order to disguise itself further. It was also handled very poorly, as the Transformers were still full-size and shrank into their shells, and Decepticon shells didn't even look remotely human. ROTF actually got the idea for Pretenders right in Alice, a infiltrator designed to look convincingly like a human, not unlike a Terminator actually.

SlyTF1 wrote:The What I've done, I think was like telling that Sam was going to do somthing wrong in ROTF (which he did.)

Having watched the movie three times in the past two days, I have to ask, what did he do wrong?

SlyTF1 wrote:And at the end of ROTF he says "Races united by a history long forgotten." Could he mean litterally, like a techno organic, or a pretender, like Alice or Sari from TFA?

He means how the Fallen was banished, the Sun Harvester buried and the Tomb of the Primes was built, all to protect the early human race.

Honestly, I just wait for Shadowman to post. That way I get to read one post rather than an entire thread. The whole damn thing condensed into a very tidy handful of comments. It makes learning happen a whole lot faster for me!

Prime Riblet wrote:Honestly, I just wait for Shadowman to post. That way I get to read one post rather than an entire thread. The whole damn thing condensed into a very tidy handful of comments. It makes learning happen a whole lot faster for me!

You know, I'd been trying real hard to avoid the movie forum since ROTF. Feeding my ego does not help keep me away!