The Energon Pub

I cannot fathom why people pay top dollar for KO transformers...particularly the mirage mold like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0169877794

I can see someone wanting to complete a collection, but to me adding a KO kinda "tarnishes" any real TFs you may have in a collection, new or old.

Meh, just my .02 feel free to shed some light!

Bhaalistik wrote:I cannot fathom why people pay top dollar for KO transformers...particularly the mirage mold like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0169877794

I can see someone wanting to complete a collection, but to me adding a KO kinda "tarnishes" any real TFs you may have in a collection, new or old.

Meh, just my .02 feel free to shed some light!

People pay top dollar for these bootlegs for several reasons...

1.) It's MISB.

2.) It's from the actual Hasbro molds (Hasbro sold them off along with the factory they were sitting in) so it's as close to the real deal as you can get.

3.) It's complete (a lot of G1 figures being in mint condition or even complete is becoming rarer at affordable prices for many.)

4.) This company is "reissuing" figures that haven't seen the light of day since the '80s.

You may not like them, but plenty of people do and I see nothing wrong with it, honestly.

Heck, Hasbro was dumb enough to sell off the molds and the factory, so whoever bought it all...has the rights to use the molds. No, they don't have the right to use the copyrights, names, etc...but the molds...not a thing Hasbro can do.

i wish these g1 KO would flood our local pegs so i can get one cheap.

It can pass for those who don't know, It's not like the auction states it is a KO.

RGM-79 GM wrote:It can pass for those who don't know, It's not like the auction states it is a KO.

Because it's technically not.

The packaging, yeah. That's a blatant rip off (well, the entire thing is) but the figure itself technically isn't a bootleg at all. The molds are legally owned by this company, they used them, and produced items that are now their own.

Sony designed the DVD player as we know it, but now every company can make one. Same thing applies here. Hasbro gave them names and a background, Takara created the molds originally, and then Hasbro sold their's off. This company bought 'em up, started using them again, and there it is.

Other than using the names, you can't really call it a shady practice. Besides...everyone on here knows what remake means. If they don't, well then they're kinda dumb. I mean a MISB G1 TF for less than $100.00? If that doesn't scream "NOT A HASBRO ORIGINAL" I don't know what does.

RGM-79 GM wrote:It can pass for those who don't know, It's not like the auction states it is a KO.

Because technically eBay doesn't allow knock-offs. So they use the term "reissue".

Which it is anything but.

They may come from the original molds, however they're NOT licensed goods. You buy these things you're doing nothing but spitting in the face of Hasbro and TakaraTomy, the ones that have given you Transformers for the last 20+ years.

As for why they cost so much? Simple. It's to rip people off. These guys know there's a market for such figures and unless you do your research someone could be easily fooled, and that's who these "reissues" are targetted at, not the fan or the collector, the GULLIBLE fan and GULLIBLE collector.

And if someone trys to put these in their collection and pass them off as the genuine item ... well that's deplorable, because from what i've read the quality isn't even anywhere near as good as the originals.

But hey .... whatever floats people's boats. Bhaalistik, great to see someone else who thinks having these in the collection "tarnishes" said collection.

Burn wrote:

RGM-79 GM wrote:It can pass for those who don't know, It's not like the auction states it is a KO.

Because technically eBay doesn't allow knock-offs. So they use the term "reissue".

Which it is anything but.

They may come from the original molds, however they're NOT licensed goods. You buy these things you're doing nothing but spitting in the face of Hasbro and TakaraTomy, the ones that have given you Transformers for the last 20+ years.

As for why they cost so much? Simple. It's to rip people off. These guys know there's a market for such figures and unless you do your research someone could be easily fooled, and that's who these "reissues" are targetted at, not the fan or the collector, the GULLIBLE fan and GULLIBLE collector.

And if someone trys to put these in their collection and pass them off as the genuine item ... well that's deplorable, because from what i've read the quality isn't even anywhere near as good as the originals.

But hey .... whatever floats people's boats. Bhaalistik, great to see someone else who thinks having these in the collection "tarnishes" said collection.

Might tarnish your collection, but not everyone's. Besides, I know a lot of people who would add them to their collection and fess up that it's not real deal. I see nothing wrong with that.

If someone tries to say it's the Hasbro original, then yeah...that's scummy, but generally most collectors don't.

I (like many others) have no problem mixing these with Hasbro originals as long as I'd get the ones I'd need for my collection. If I was going for the entire first season cast and reissues, originals, and these remakes were my only option...I'd do it. Of course I know it's not all original but I (and again, many others) would be content and I don't see how that's a problem.

If it's a problem for people and it personally affects them because someone actually buys and collects these, that tells me that person needs a wake up call and to find something else to do with their time.

It's one thing to be concerned about a person for legit reasons, about something that actually impacts one's life. Being concerned that someone actually collects these because they chose to do so...is something completely different and isn't warranted.

Too many people concern themselves with the collections (and reasons behind it) of others, rather than worrying about their own. Kinda sad really.

There's a sucker born every minute, and a whole lot of them were born when the movie came out.

The gullible and ill-informed are always the easiest to manipulate...

KO's only tarnish a collection if they cost as much as these ones

Autobot032 wrote:Might tarnish your collection, but not everyone's. Besides, I know a lot of people who would add them to their collection and fess up that it's not real deal. I see nothing wrong with that.

If someone tries to say it's the Hasbro original, then yeah...that's scummy, but generally most collectors don't.

I (like many others) have no problem mixing these with Hasbro originals as long as I'd get the ones I'd need for my collection. If I was going for the entire first season cast and reissues, originals, and these remakes were my only option...I'd do it. Of course I know it's not all original but I (and again, many others) would be content and I don't see how that's a problem.

If it's a problem for people and it personally affects them because someone actually buys and collects these, that tells me that person needs a wake up call and to find something else to do with their time.

It's one thing to be concerned about a person for legit reasons, about something that actually impacts one's life. Being concerned that someone actually collects these because they chose to do so...is something completely different and isn't warranted.

Too many people concern themselves with the collections (and reasons behind it) of others, rather than worrying about their own. Kinda sad really.

If you're assuming i'm one of those people who concern themselves with the collection of others, you're wrong.

It was also nice of you to only single out one part of what I said, that being, people who buy them for their collections.

If people admit they're KO's, I have no problem with that.

I have a couple of KO figures, I don't let them anywhere near the rest of my stuff though as I consider them "oddities" because they look different to the originals, you know ... green and gold Grimlock etc.

But these "G1 reissues", i'm strongly against them because they're made specifically to rip people off. I would rather wait months ... even years, and collecting little pieces at time to collect a G1 figure than pay money to these rip-off merchants.

If people want to pay that sort of money for it, that's their business, but there is no way I pay so much money for a product that isn't licensed.

There is a new site to help educate people on the differences between originals and KOs. TONS of details and picturs.
The site is http://www.kotransformers.com/

I for one am really liking these new KOs. As many people have already stated, they are a nice way to fill in the gap if you are missing these figures since Hasbro/Takara don't seem too interested in doing so.

The quality hasn't been perfect on all of these, but they are really improving. I am loving the mirage with the decals instead of the stickers! That really impressed me. The clear one with the clear tires impressed me aswel. The clear black one is cool, but not on my "must have" list.

If they continue with this type of quality and they actually make what people want, then I don't mind paying 70$ for them considering how much an original in the same condition would be. They still aren't original figs, but they seem to be better then most reissues.

The only thing that I think is terrible about these are the people who try to pass them off as originals. I suppose it is up to the buyer to know what they are buying, but with so many new fans poping up since the movie, I am sure many people will still have to learn the hard way, and that is not fair.

Burn wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:Might tarnish your collection, but not everyone's. Besides, I know a lot of people who would add them to their collection and fess up that it's not real deal. I see nothing wrong with that.

If someone tries to say it's the Hasbro original, then yeah...that's scummy, but generally most collectors don't.

I (like many others) have no problem mixing these with Hasbro originals as long as I'd get the ones I'd need for my collection. If I was going for the entire first season cast and reissues, originals, and these remakes were my only option...I'd do it. Of course I know it's not all original but I (and again, many others) would be content and I don't see how that's a problem.

If it's a problem for people and it personally affects them because someone actually buys and collects these, that tells me that person needs a wake up call and to find something else to do with their time.

It's one thing to be concerned about a person for legit reasons, about something that actually impacts one's life. Being concerned that someone actually collects these because they chose to do so...is something completely different and isn't warranted.

Too many people concern themselves with the collections (and reasons behind it) of others, rather than worrying about their own. Kinda sad really.

If you're assuming i'm one of those people who concern themselves with the collection of others, you're wrong.

It was also nice of you to only single out one part of what I said, that being, people who buy them for their collections.

If people admit they're KO's, I have no problem with that.

I have a couple of KO figures, I don't let them anywhere near the rest of my stuff though as I consider them "oddities" because they look different to the originals, you know ... green and gold Grimlock etc.

But these "G1 reissues", i'm strongly against them because they're made specifically to rip people off. I would rather wait months ... even years, and collecting little pieces at time to collect a G1 figure than pay money to these rip-off merchants.

If people want to pay that sort of money for it, that's their business, but there is no way I pay so much money for a product that isn't licensed.

Oh no, no. That wasn't aimed at you. It was a generalized statement (which I should've clarified.) Sorry.

I think an imporant point to note with these KO reissues is who is buying them.

If you ae a general Mecha fan, well this Mirage is as good if not btter than an original.

For a TF collector, it obviously does not cut the cheese as it is not a Hasbro product and is not even a faqithful repro of the original. While the Prime KO is a great piece of work, Swoop was very flimsy and Mirage, I hear, has an issue with his head not being accurate. Can someone confirm this?

With all that said, I think KOs are not necesarily the best choice as a TF fan as by buying it, you are kind of jipping yourself and cheapening the sentimental value of your collection.

However, and this is a BIG HOWEVER. IM, KOs are a wonderful source for cool items that Hasbro never made, like the clear Mirage, the great Ravage and Rumble KO tapes in the various colors. These are fun figures and are obviously not the original. Hence I personally find that they do have a place in my collection along with customs and repaints and do not take away from my G1s as they, in no way, attempt to be the original.

My 2 cents....well more like 2 and a half cents.

Personally I dont see anything wrong with these prices for KOs, technically only the packaging is KO other than that the figure is just as good as any and the packaging is completely MINT!

I realise I haven't been here very long, but in a short time, I've noticed a lot of people seem to get quite worked up about other folk buying a toy that they personally don't like. Why is that? I mean, I'm not a fan of the Beast Wars/Machines era, but I don't go around slating people for buying the toys, even though I wouldn't want them if they were being given away.

Just to be clear, I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, just making a general point.

Blah, blah, blah.

The KO is going for this price because:

A) This is the first time that this character has been made since 1985.

B) The quality is roughly the same as the orig, since it's from the same mould.

C) They have thrown a twist. There is a clear version and a black clear version.

D) Demand, people want this character. As long as there is demand, there is supply. Basic economics.

I like KO's. About a third of my collection are KO's. I have no problem with that. I have yet to get this mould. I don't want to pay that much for a KO. However, if I find one for less, I'll get it.

The real difference in the KO's is the quality. Most are cheap plastic KO's. However, this line is very close in quality to the orig, or so I've heard.

The truth is buyer beware. Be smart in what you buy.

I actually like the Mirage KO, but the original paint job and the black version, but I'd never pay $80 for one. I haven't paid that much for actual Takara/Hasbro reissues and I sure won't for a KO of unknown quality. If they were $30 then I'd snag one for sure.

Hopefully the price will come down on the mirage, or at least the new versions of mirage. From what I understand, they dont make huge runs of these figures, so they are trying to make back their money quikly on a small run of figures instead of making lots and charging less. By making different versions of the same figure, their cost should go down, and hopfully that difference will reach the consumer. It might not be as low as $30, but it should get lower.

actaly I like the way it looks!
I never had a mirage, and that looks real nice!
If it were cheaper I would buy it!

I have no problems knock offs if they are not being sold to me as originals.

I don't think I have any knock offs yet, and I havn't really found one that I have rather have over the original. So far everything I've wnated I've been able to afford to pay for the originals, as there is something about having the original, just a feeling.

Now, if it was something that I could never get because it was to expensive, and there was a nice looking, somewhat ok quality for displaying knock off, and was cheap, then I would get it, but at the moment there is nothing for me.

ConDrewfus wrote:
C) They have thrown a twist. There is a clear version and a black clear version.


I like KO's. About a third of my collection are KO's. I have no problem with that. I have yet to get this mould. I don't want to pay that much for a KO. However, if I find one for less, I'll get it.

Sing it brother! I can tell you why I bought this one, and why I bought the ghost colored clear version...because they are different, but also are a version of one of my favorite TFs.

I don't just collect TFs. I collect cool robots. I have Valks from Macross, I have Gobots, I have Voltron, and I am slowly expanding to others, but these I have right now, because I also watched the shows as a child.

This 'Nemesis Mirage' I found particularly convincing because I have a collection of black versions of TFs, or Nemesis versions, if you will. In fact, I collect a lot of Nemesis stuff- SW figs dressed in black versions of the norm, GI Joe Night Attack/Strike Figs, the upcoming Black 25th releases of the Macross jets...

He will fit in quite well with my collection. The ghost clear version fits well with my collection of bots made of clear, translucent, or transparent plastics, official of not, which I also have going.

I would say 95% of my collection is vintage/official releases or re-releases. The 10% that is not are KO's that I find interesting, or that are cool colored versions of original toys that I like a lot.

I never would say these are vintage TFs if they aren't, but some of them look damn fine next to their vintage colored counterparts--which is why I have them.

Remember, when you take my job from me, start paying my bills, and fund me for my artwork and collecting skills, you can tell me that I can only by vintage TFs. However, when its my money, and my collection, which I don't plan on selling, but if I do, I will certainly be honest about it, I'm pretty sure it's okay for me to put them in my collections. The other bots don't mind.

As for this and the ghost, they would be pretty hard to pass off as vintage, since there were never vintage versions (or re-issues, or exclusives even) that were made like this.

The closest thing would be the Lunch Break specials which were made back in the day, which were also not official, made from the same molds, same quality plastic, but they were just less widely available--and did not have boxes.

The market is there. I'm not trying to spit in the face of Takara/Tomy or HASBRO, they get plenty of my money! I simply am buying product that they choose not to make available. You can't blame somebody for that. If they had something comparable or the same on the market, then that would be different, and I would buy theirs because chances are it would be better quality, etc.

Heck what about Ebayers who sell vintage for $100-$1000. Do they pay anything to Takara/Tomy or HASBRO? I'm pretty sure the only thing they paid was the original price, and then it gets sold for whatever hiked up price the market values it at, and yet Tak-Tomy sees none of that money either.

If you call us evil for buying KO, bootleg, or unofficial versions, you might want to start harping on prototype purchasers, because those are stolen directly under the noses of corporation's factories, and then sold for quite a high markup on Ebay. I believe there is a shoe former prototype Prime out there right now for $500. They also are thumbing their noses at the corporations and saying, "Look we'll encourage this stealing, albeit even unintentionally, by creating a market for it."

So there is plenty of illegal behavior to go around. As long as a duck is called a duck, I don't see a problem with people buying them, displaying them, and even calling them KO or bootleg versions.

As long as you are honest when it comes to reselling, I see no issue morally with buying or displaying them proudly.

In some instances some collectors are caught between a rock and a hard place. I really like the mold, some people never had a G1 Mirage. This is where it gets difficult. We see the product and it's a knockoff, some people might think this is the only chance to get a G1 Mirage thinking that HasTakomy will never reissue him because of lost or damaged molds. In this case we don't know yet if this mold was reversed engineered or lost due to the selling of a factory. With my crazy thinking I'm hoping HasTakomy will reverse engineer him and do a general reissue of him.

Those Ko's are over priced. I much rather wait til Mirage, Swoop, the cassetticons, etc. ever be reissued again by either Hasbro or Takara. They will be reissued sooner or later. Have patience.











As Autobot032 says:
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I believe in Jesus Christ as my Saviour. If you do too, copy and paste this into your signature.

NOTE: Realize that I am not a perfect Christian, nor do I profess to be. I apologize if anyone's ever offended by me, I'm not perfect. Don't hold my posts and opinions against other Christians.

I recently looked into acquiring a black G1 Optimus Prime. I really wanted the get the Takara JafCon version but I couldn't find any less than $250. Then I saw the "reissue" version on eBay for about $70 and decided to get that instead and I am happy with that decision. As a collector I prefer the originals over the KOs however in this case I believe that I made the right choice.

SpacerAM2 wrote:Those Ko's are over priced. I much rather wait til Mirage, Swoop, the cassetticons, etc. ever be reissued again by either Hasbro or Takara. They will be reissued sooner or later. Have patience.

Actually we have been told the Dinobots will not, we were told that molds to Sunstreaker, Wheeljack, and Mirage, we well as many combiners, are too heavily damaged to see re-issue.

Some cassettes have been, others have not.

It's all about how you want to spend your money and how much you want the item no matter what it is.

Well said Tigertracks24. I'd also like to see more pics of the Nemesis Mirage, I'm sorely tempted to buy one but can't justify the cash right now.

Also the notion that somehow KO's cheapen or infect your Transformers collection is ridiculous. They're toys! It's one thing to be loyal to Hasbro/Takara or whatever, but don't act like it's a righteous thing to only have official releases. As Tigertracks puts it, the collection is solely what you enjoy owning, not what others think you should own.