The Energon Pub

My two pence.

Reflector's a alt. mode combiner. Although the figures appear to share the same mind (in the cartoon at least) a they do not combine to make a robot.

In the same way Dreadwind and Darkwing aren't a gestalt.

In transformer terms a gestalt is two or more figures that merge to combine into a single robot. E.g. the combiner teams, R.I.D Prime and Magnus and even most of the Energon figures.

Another difference is that Reflector's combined mode is his only alt.mode, whereas Darkwing and Dreadwind each have their own alt.modes as well as a combined form. In this respect, they're more akin to the Combiner teams than Reflector.

Leonardo wrote:Another difference is that Reflector's combined mode is his only alt.mode, whereas Darkwing and Dreadwind each have their own alt.modes as well as a combined form. In this respect, they're more akin to the Combiner teams than Reflector.

Good point *Wish I'd thought of that*

How about we say that Reflector is just 'Special'?

He certainly is. It's only just occured to me that Reflector's Decoy is actually just Viewfinder in robot mode. Seems Hasbro may have been confused by exactly what he is, too.

Leonardo wrote:Another difference is that Reflector's combined mode is his only alt.mode, whereas Darkwing and Dreadwind each have their own alt.modes as well as a combined form. In this respect, they're more akin to the Combiner teams than Reflector.

True, but the combined mode, Dreadwing, is not a robot. I think a true Gestalt combines to form a robot, and not a vehicle or item.

Bonger wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Another difference is that Reflector's combined mode is his only alt.mode, whereas Darkwing and Dreadwind each have their own alt.modes as well as a combined form. In this respect, they're more akin to the Combiner teams than Reflector.

True, but the combined mode, Dreadwing, is not a robot. I think a true Gestalt combines to form a robot, and not a vehicle or item.

That's my thinking. I'm not arguing Reflector is a gestalt! I was trying to highlight another difference between Reflector and Gestalts.

Leonardo wrote:

Bonger wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Another difference is that Reflector's combined mode is his only alt.mode, whereas Darkwing and Dreadwind each have their own alt.modes as well as a combined form. In this respect, they're more akin to the Combiner teams than Reflector.

True, but the combined mode, Dreadwing, is not a robot. I think a true Gestalt combines to form a robot, and not a vehicle or item.

That's my thinking. I'm not arguing Reflector is a gestalt! I was trying to highlight another difference between Reflector and Gestalts.

So does that mean the Dino Cassettes are Gestalts? They are a tape in alt mode, a dino in bot mode, and 2 each can combine to form a Rumble/Frenzy style bot although a lot bulkier and bigger than the Rumble/Frenzy scale.

Swerve wrote:

Leonardo wrote:

Bonger wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Another difference is that Reflector's combined mode is his only alt.mode, whereas Darkwing and Dreadwind each have their own alt.modes as well as a combined form. In this respect, they're more akin to the Combiner teams than Reflector.

True, but the combined mode, Dreadwing, is not a robot. I think a true Gestalt combines to form a robot, and not a vehicle or item.

That's my thinking. I'm not arguing Reflector is a gestalt! I was trying to highlight another difference between Reflector and Gestalts.

So does that mean the Dino Cassettes are Gestalts? They are a tape in alt mode, a dino in bot mode, and 2 each can combine to form a Rumble/Frenzy style bot although a lot bulkier and bigger than the Rumble/Frenzy scale.

Going by the definition set out thus far in this thread, I suppsoe so. Of course, someone may argue that a Gestalt has to have five or six members, but I don't see why the Dinocassettes can't form a Gestalt. The same would go for Squawkbox, unless I've forgotten something.

I do have two complete sets of Reflector. One to mess with and one "in box". Since it was a mail in offer.

Its a shame the mold and perhaps the name no longer exists, otherwise he'd have been released by now

I got a really nice KO off of eBay about a month ago, $10.00. Spectro is differnet colour but for KO with all accessories, who cares!

i believe that a combiner is any two or more TFs that become a singular unit, and a gestalt is any two or more TFs that become a singular mind, whether they are in the form of a camera, robot, jet, etc.

Bonger wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Just to throw this in there, but gestalt doesn't have to mean 'a figure' or 'human-like'. It can mean just 'form', 'shape' or 'configuration'. If one takes the latter definition[s] then Reflector could be considered a Gestalt. It just depends on what the Transformers community has taken the word to mean. That is a question I'm not really sure of the answer to.

In the TF community, I believe the term Gestalt refers to combiners who have their own distinct persnalities and are formed by multiple TFs, each of whom has their own personailty.

In the case of Reflector, this would be a big no. Not only does the camera mode have no personality, the 3 bots, are essentially one unit, speaking in unison and never seen apart.

Never seen apart or speaking out of unison?? There is one ep in season 1 (Divide and Conquer) where one of the "clones" is forced to pilot the shuttle across the space bridge.. He is later seen helping Shockwave and does say 1 line in that ep by himself (no no no while being forced the shuttle, showing a distanct seprate personality)

Exulted Unicron wrote:Its a shame the mold and perhaps the name no longer exists, otherwise he'd have been released by now

the ko companies seem to have a mold. I purchased one a couple months ago and its not bad for $20 shipped.

Repair Bay wrote:i believe that a combiner is any two or more TFs that become a singular unit, and a gestalt is any two or more TFs that become a singular mind, whether they are in the form of a camera, robot, jet, etc.

I agree that if two or more figures combine into a single robot and share single personality then they would be considered a Gestalt.

Not sure if that applies to Alt modes? I recall in the later issues of the US comic where Dreadwing chases down and destroys Getaway. Both Darkwing and Dreadwind comment on the poor Autobots' destruction.

I'd call Reflector rare, if anything.



I have a set, but it's not the best, and not complete...accessories wise...

I see the Reflector set similar to Tomax and Xamot from GI Joe, individuals who are able to 'intuit' what the other twins are thinking...

...and yes they have a combined alternate form, but are not a 'combiner team' that creates a larger robot with a personality that is a conglomeration of all the parts, but his own, nonetheless.

The Oxford American college dictionary defines gestalt as "an organized whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts." That definition is a bit vague, but I have heard that gestalt translates as "mind-body," implying that it is one mind made of many bodies.

Personally, I view gestalts in Transformers as combiner teams (Devastator, etc). I guess I'm not helping this debate much, although here's something funny:

http://www.belch.com/the-horrible-world ... ing-slugs/

Scroll down for gestalt slugs.

ok haven't read the whole thread yet, but IMHO he needs to be put on the waiting list of Masterpiece transformers to be released in the future of the line..

Devestator was the first combiner in my view.. reflector was the first triplet transformer..

A gestalt is defined as greater than the sum of its parts, but I don't see how that describes Devastator.

It has nothing to do with the number of Constructicons it takes to form him, or his lack of ability to switch limbs with other combiners.

He's simply less than the sum of his parts. The Constructicons are fairly competent and intelligent, at least in comparison to other G1 Decepticons. Devastator is a slow, bumbling, dimwitted hulk that is easily stopped. The Decepticons would probably have more success by giving Scavenger an laser rifle and letting him take out his angst on Autobots.

skywarp-2 wrote:ok haven't read the whole thread yet, but IMHO he needs to be put on the waiting list of Masterpiece transformers to be released in the future of the line..

You're an addict! An addict, I say!

JetfireUK wrote:

Repair Bay wrote:i believe that a combiner is any two or more TFs that become a singular unit, and a gestalt is any two or more TFs that become a singular mind, whether they are in the form of a camera, robot, jet, etc.

I agree that if two or more figures combine into a single robot and share single personality then they would be considered a Gestalt.

Not sure if that applies to Alt modes? I recall in the later issues of the US comic where Dreadwing chases down and destroys Getaway. Both Darkwing and Dreadwind comment on the poor Autobots' destruction.

I think we need to differentiate between a combined robot and a gestalt. If for arguements' sake we can call Devastator, Abominus et al. gestalts, then combinations such as Omega Prime, the Energon Autobots and Reflector would be combiners, just to establish a difference. While Reflector, like Dreadwind and Darkwing have a combined alt mode, Reflector could not revert to camera mode in the absence of one or more of its units, were as D&D already have alt modes independant of each other. Scramble City shows the gestalt teams like Superion are capable of merging without one of their members, although I find the logic behind this questionable. Armada Megatron and Tidal Wave 'combine', they do not 'merge'.
The Constructicons merge physically and mentally into Devastator, Tidal Wave just becomes armor/weaponry. As far as I know from not watching the show, the Energon Autobots just enhance which ever one of them serves as the upper body, like the G1 dual Targetmasters, they don't form an entirely new entity. Omega Prime as far as I can tell (never saw RID) is kinda the same.

Anyways, if we establish a difference between the two, like a real working difference, then I think we can label just about any grouping of robots.

I agree on all counts, except for Omega Prime, he is not, Optimus, or Ultra Magnus, he is infact a new entity. Granted it has a lot of personality traits from Prime, but is an entirely new person.

As for the other differences. I agree. Refelctor is a combiner as he actually combines to form the camera. He does not form a Robot with a new personality hence not a Gestalt.

devastator is a gestalt simply because there is a new personality when they merge. Even though he is slow, and dimwitted. He is more than just the constructicons put together. He is Devastator a new persona. in addition to the other six members of the group.

Same with Superion, and Menasor etc...


Dreadwind and Darkwing, do not produce a new persona, they are just a bigger jet. But can still function independently in alt mode. Reflector cannot.

Gestalts produce a new persona .

Alt. Mode combiners create a new alt mode when combined.

Powerlinkers, just enhance the abilites of whoever is on top.

Overcracker wrote:I agree on all counts, except for Omega Prime, he is not, Optimus, or Ultra Magnus, he is infact a new entity. Granted it has a lot of personality traits from Prime, but is an entirely new person.

As for the other differences. I agree. Refelctor is a combiner as he actually combines to form the camera. He does not form a Robot with a new personality hence not a Gestalt.

devastator is a gestalt simply because there is a new personality when they merge. Even though he is slow, and dimwitted. He is more than just the constructicons put together. He is Devastator a new persona. in addition to the other six members of the group.

Same with Superion, and Menasor etc...


Dreadwind and Darkwing, do not produce a new persona, they are just a bigger jet. But can still function independently in alt mode. Reflector cannot.

Gestalts produce a new persona .

Alt. Mode combiners create a new alt mode when combined.

Powerlinkers, just enhance the abilites of whoever is on top.

Cool. I never saw RID at all, so Omega Prime is a mystery to me as a character, so sorry if I got that one wrong.

I got two differently coloured KO versions of Reflector recently. Good quality and as far as I'm concerned part of the Nemesis crew from the early G1 comics.

Remember the first 4 issues where the Decepticons had technicians in the background? They reminded me of the Reflector bots.

Anyway, that's 6 new cons for Megatron to boost his anoyingly outnumbered ranks.

Would definitely recommend these KO's.

Leonardo wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:ok haven't read the whole thread yet, but IMHO he needs to be put on the waiting list of Masterpiece transformers to be released in the future of the line..

You're an addict! An addict, I say!

Yes!!!!!!!

I love Masterpiece, Love it, Love it, LOOOOVE It!!!!