The Energon Pub

With reguards to the debate over which decepticon became scourge and cyclonus My thinking is this.
The seekers were being replaced. New seekers were needed and who beter to rebuild them with than the original seekers!
Cyclonus is purple and so is sky warp The animation shows skywarp and another bot being turned into cyclonus. Scourge is blue and so is t. cracker. The animation shows t cracker along with another bot being turned into scourge.
I believe that the original intent was to have two to three of each cyclonus and scourge to be in the new toon just as there were multiple clones of the original seekers running about. (screamer cracker and sky warp)
For whatever reason they decided to only have the scourge model be multiples and cyclonus was to be a solo model. Probably because they wanted a second in command that was unique in model and personality.
I believe it was intended for t cracker to become scourge thus the same colors were applied and for sky warp to become cyclonus thus the same colors.
Had the writers known the nix would be put on the multiple cyclonus idea, I believe they would have pulled bombshell in favor of skywarp for sure. The only reason the insecticon was in the mix was because multiples were needed and so he was thrown in.
Thats my opinion. Not realy important but fun to discuss none the less. Forgive me if I am bringing up points long since made.
Take care all.

Wrong forum, and it'll probably never be solved until yet another retcon comes along

I'd always considered that to be the case, though.

I've always been of the opinion that Bombshell and Skywarp both pretty much got pureed, and Cyclonus and "his armada" made from the mix. As a no-prize bit, perhaps "his armada" was missing some key elements, and pretty much crumbled to dust...

I always went with Bombshell became Cyclonus and Skywarp became Armada. My logic has always been this: Unicron can't change who a Transformer is but he can bring them back to life as someone else. When Megatron became Galvatron, he didn't change in his personality he just got roided up and his insanity was because of begin fried in the lava after the Movie. If Skywarp wasn't dead yet, he'd have suddenly been in a strong new body surrounded by strangers face to face with the Cybertronian equivalent of Satan or Cthulhu raising the dead around him. He then did the only sensible think for him to have done: teleported as far away as he could and just kept running.

The best part about that theory is it's in line with the 3H Wreckers stories as seen here.

zodconvoy wrote:I always went with Bombshell became Cyclonus and Skywarp became Armada. My logic has always been this: Unicron can't change who a Transformer is but he can bring them back to life as someone else. When Megatron became Galvatron, he didn't change in his personality he just got roided up and his insanity was because of begin fried in the lava after the Movie. If Skywarp wasn't dead yet, he'd have suddenly been in a strong new body surrounded by strangers face to face with the Cybertronian equivalent of Satan or Cthulhu raising the dead around him. He then did the only sensible think for him to have done: teleported as far away as he could and just kept running.

The best part about that theory is it's in line with the 3H Wreckers stories as seen here.

Interesting theory. But by your same logic that unicron didnt change the cons as far as personality youve gotta ask why a bot like bombshell who was far from loyal as you can be would suddenly become one of the most loyal if not the most loyal decepticon ever.
That is actually another reason I believe skywarp became cyclonus that I failed to mention. Loyalty.
Cyclonus is extreemely loyal to galvatron. More loyal than skywarp was? Maybe. More loyal than bombshell was? HA!! Absolutely!
So because I agree that the bots retained their personalities and changed in form and stats alone I have yet another reason to believe cyclonus is skywarp.

Of course the irony is that their personalities are all different, so having a disloyal Con in Bombshell become the loyal Cyclonus, has a nice bit of irony to it. I think it all depends on what you consider best. See, if I had both Cyclonus and Scourge along with the Insecticons, but not the other two Seekers, then I would've kept the Insecticons in action along with Cyclonus and Scoruge. But that's just me.

I always liked the insecticons too. I prefer the entire original onsamble to the post war cast though. They had more character and were much more of a threat.
Galvatron may be physically stronger than megs by a bit but mentally megs has it all over galv. Galv cant orchistrate a tea party without screwing it up much less plan out a clever attack on the autobots. Its comical realy how badly the post war autobots own the post war decepticons.
Megatron however and all his troops pressed the pre war autobots and optimus in almost every eppisode. They were always extreemely close to universal control but at the last moment prime would find a way to nix the operation and megs would flee vowing every time to be avenged.
I wish they would have made galv out to be the bd ass he should have been. He should have owned magnus and every other autobot hands down each and every time and when he fights rodimus it should have been a feeling that rodimus was fighting for his life and had better not screw up.
All well. I guess I maybe expecting a bit much from a childs show. Thats justy how I see things.

Full-sized image reveals all.

One of the seekers becomes Scourge. Kickback and Shrapnel become Sweeps.

Bombshell became Cyclonus. The other seeker became part of the "armada" and was never seen again.

The question, therefore, is which Seeker became Scourge, and which one simply disappeared... and the answer is obviously that TC became Scourge, because Skywarp is the only one that can disappear

Also, during Starscream's coronation, you can briefly see TC, SW, AND the Insecticons present and accounted for. And then the Insecticons are present on the Planet of Junk, too.

cotss2012 wrote:

I Thought those were Animation Errors (Wich as I'm seeing, season three and the movie are chalked full of) Help me saberblade!

decepta-scott wrote:With reguards to the debate over which decepticon became scourge and cyclonus My thinking is this.
The seekers were being replaced. New seekers were needed and who beter to rebuild them with than the original seekers!
Cyclonus is purple and so is sky warp The animation shows skywarp and another bot being turned into cyclonus. Scourge is blue and so is t. cracker. The animation shows t cracker along with another bot being turned into scourge.
I believe that the original intent was to have two to three of each cyclonus and scourge to be in the new toon just as there were multiple clones of the original seekers running about. (screamer cracker and sky warp)
For whatever reason they decided to only have the scourge model be multiples and cyclonus was to be a solo model. Probably because they wanted a second in command that was unique in model and personality.
I believe it was intended for t cracker to become scourge thus the same colors were applied and for sky warp to become cyclonus thus the same colors.
Had the writers known the nix would be put on the multiple cyclonus idea, I believe they would have pulled bombshell in favor of skywarp for sure. The only reason the insecticon was in the mix was because multiples were needed and so he was thrown in.
Thats my opinion. Not realy important but fun to discuss none the less. Forgive me if I am bringing up points long since made.
Take care all.

Look, I've enjoyed this topic over the years but its really not an issue that is debatable.They did what they did and the evidence proves that its what they planned to do from the start.

Bombshell became Cyclonus.

Sure, it would have made more sense to use only the seekers as the new "seekers", but the bottomline of it is that the films makers just didnt care who they replaced who with.

they didnt care if they were both planes,or about more matching personality traits, or shared similar colors [BTW, Bombshell shares the same colors as Skywarp]

they just didnt care.

at the end, they chose Bombshell to become Cyclonus, and I doubt they would have altered anything if the writers had known they were going to nix the multiple cyclonus idea,they just didnt care enough.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Wrong forum, and it'll probably never be solved until yet another retcon comes along

retcons re-write after the fact, they wouldnt solve an issue like this

Valandar wrote:I've always been of the opinion that Bombshell and Skywarp both pretty much got pureed, and Cyclonus and "his armada" made from the mix.

thats what they intended, but it was considered too gruesome so it wasnt done.

Will little old me do?

Like every cartoon G1 has a fair share of animation errors, thanks to multiple contracted studios (especially AKOM is notorious for errors), multiple models for one character (non-final and final) and especially lack of communication. TFWiki even has special sections for every single episode, it's that bad in the early days.

The trouble with the birth of Cyclonus and Scourge is that according to the original scripts they were made from dead Decepticons, but they never specified which ones. Aside from Megatron, nobody was mentioned, not even who the casualties were. Although Bombshell (or an Insecticon clone) was clearly shown on a storyboard and turned into Cyclonus.

Want to see errors at their finest? Watch the scenes of their birth and count the Armada and Sweeps, between shots

Another thing the series was prone to were so-called Generics, or crowd fillers. The name says it all. More often than not the Seeker model is used in a variety of colors, down to those of G1 Silverbolt Two Generics were turned into full-fledged characters: Sunstorm and the Rainmaker Acid Storm. Multiples of Reflector were also used btw.

VECTOR PRIME HAS GRACED US WITH AN ANSWER!!!

In the AllSpark Almanac Addendum, there is one lone "Ask Vector Prime " session hidden within its pages, in which the following question is asked:

Q: Was Cyclonus built from Bombshell or Skywarp?

And the answer he gave was:

A: It varies by universe.



























What, I never said it was a definitive answer.

Sabrblade wrote:VECTOR PRIME HAS GRACED US WITH AN ANSWER!!!

In the AllSpark Almanac Addendum, there is one lone "Ask Vector Prime " session hidden within its pages, in which the following question is asked:

Q: Was Cyclonus built from Bombshell or Skywarp?

And the answer he gave was:

A: It varies by universe.

What, I never said it was a definitive answer.

which doesnt answer the question at all because its being asked about a particular universe

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:which doesnt answer the question at all because its being asked about a particular universe

Well, the G1 movie is technically a part of more than one universe, applying to multiples instead of just one.

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:which doesnt answer the question at all because its being asked about a particular universe

Well, the G1 movie is technically a part of more than one universe, applying to multiples instead of just one.

actully its not.

The G1 movie is part of the g1 toon continuity

Now, the comics featured similar events, but those events arent EXACTLY the same, so they arent in the same continuity

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:which doesnt answer the question at all because its being asked about a particular universe

Well, the G1 movie is technically a part of more than one universe, applying to multiples instead of just one.

actully its not.

The G1 movie is part of the g1 toon continuity

Now, the comics featured similar events, but those events arent EXACTLY the same, so they arent in the same continuity

American G1 cartoon continuity
Japanese G1 cartoon continuity (dub)
3H/Fun Pub Beast Era continuity
United "Macrocosmic Seekers" story (if this isn't the JG1 cartoon continuity)
Marvel's "The Big Broadcast of 2006"
"Rodimus vs. Cyclonus" comic (forced, yet canon, connection)
Possibly the Wings Universe

Sabrblade wrote:American G1 cartoon continuity

ofcourse

Japanese G1 cartoon continuity (dub)

same events, different continuity

3H/Fun Pub Beast Era continuity

debatable since we cant be cretin of which G1 continuity the Beast era is part of.

United "Macrocosmic Seekers" story (if this isn't the JG1 cartoon continuity)

havent readit so I cant pass judgement

Marvel's "The Big Broadcast of 2006"

certainly debatable, it could be the same continuity that the Marvel adaptation of the film falls into.

And since, at the time, comics and toons were always separate continuities, then I would like that issue to the movie comic adaptation continuity.

"Rodimus vs. Cyclonus" comic (forced, yet canon, connection)
Possibly the Wings Universe

in both cases, if it doesnt fit exactly then its not the exact same continuity

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:same events, different continuity

Different continuity is still different continuity.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:debatable since we cant be cretin of which G1 continuity the Beast era is part of.

The movie byitself can exist in this continuity without the rest of the G1 cartoon going with it.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:havent readit so I cant pass judgement

Me neither. Just going by what I've read about it.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:certainly debatable, it could be the same continuity that the Marvel adaptation of the film falls into.

And since, at the time, comics and toons were always separate continuities, then I would like that issue to the movie comic adaptation continuity.

Having read both, there's some discrepancies between the G1 movie comic adaptation and the BBo2006 comic adaptation, while less so for the movie itself and the BBo2006 comic.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:in both cases, if it doesnt fit exactly then its not the exact same continuity

For the Wings Universe, I said "possibly" since we don't quite know yet, but there is a storng possibility since the whole thing is built around a continuity based on that of the G1 cartoon.

For "Rodimus vs. Cyclonus", while it doesn't quite fit, the connection is made explicit in the comic itself by outright declaring that "This story was concluded in the 1986 animated film: Transformers: The Movie." It fits about as well as the WFC comic fits with the WFC game, yet the canonized connection in each forces them in with each other.

Sabrblade wrote:Different continuity is still different continuity.

umm, thats what I said, different continuity.

The movie byitself can exist in this continuity without the rest of the G1 cartoon going with it.

sure vit "CAN", my point is we csant say one way or the other if it is the case

Me neither. Just going by what I've read about it.

i'LL TAKE YOUR WORD ON THAT THEN

Having read both, there's some discrepancies between the G1 movie comic adaptation and the BBo2006 comic adaptation, while less so for the movie itself and the BBo2006 comic.

thanks for thaT INFO

For the Wings Universe, I said "possibly" since we don't quite know yet, but there is a storng possibility since the whole thing is built around a continuity based on that of the G1 cartoon.

For "Rodimus vs. Cyclonus", while it doesn't quite fit, the connection is made explicit in the comic itself by outright declaring that "This story was concluded in the 1986 animated film: Transformers: The Movie." It fits about as well as the WFC comic fits with the WFC game, yet the canonized connection in each forces them in with each other.

yes, an other example for why the official word has no bearing on how things fit.

no disrespect, but your not telling me anything useful here.they csan claim connections all they want, but thsats not going to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

decepta-scott wrote:With reguards to the debate over which decepticon became scourge and cyclonus My thinking is this.
The seekers were being replaced. New seekers were needed and who beter to rebuild them with than the original seekers!
Cyclonus is purple and so is sky warp The animation shows skywarp and another bot being turned into cyclonus. Scourge is blue and so is t. cracker. The animation shows t cracker along with another bot being turned into scourge.
I believe that the original intent was to have two to three of each cyclonus and scourge to be in the new toon just as there were multiple clones of the original seekers running about. (screamer cracker and sky warp)
For whatever reason they decided to only have the scourge model be multiples and cyclonus was to be a solo model. Probably because they wanted a second in command that was unique in model and personality.
I believe it was intended for t cracker to become scourge thus the same colors were applied and for sky warp to become cyclonus thus the same colors.
Had the writers known the nix would be put on the multiple cyclonus idea, I believe they would have pulled bombshell in favor of skywarp for sure. The only reason the insecticon was in the mix was because multiples were needed and so he was thrown in.
Thats my opinion. Not realy important but fun to discuss none the less. Forgive me if I am bringing up points long since made.
Take care all.

Look, I've enjoyed this topic over the years but its really not an issue that is debatable.They did what they did and the evidence proves that its what they planned to do from the start.

Bombshell became Cyclonus.

Sure, it would have made more sense to use only the seekers as the new "seekers", but the bottomline of it is that the films makers just didnt care who they replaced who with.

they didnt care if they were both planes,or about more matching personality traits, or shared similar colors [BTW, Bombshell shares the same colors as Skywarp]

they just didnt care.

at the end, they chose Bombshell to become Cyclonus, and I doubt they would have altered anything if the writers had known they were going to nix the multiple cyclonus idea,they just didnt care enough.

Well its about friggin time you and saber blade joined in this topic!
I was eager to discuss this with the two of you above all else. Not that I dont enjoy and respect each and every opinion from all members. We just have good debates IMO.
So, Supprise supprise Im going to have to disagree wioth you. I still believe that the seekers were to be the new seekers. Colors match, loyaltee matches (at least expenencially more than with any insecticon and seekers were just cooler more recognizable. I havnt time to type more points but I shall return!!!!
P.S. I gotta p.m. u in a bit sto. I got some potentially good news for you reguarding some generetions figures.
Take care pal. Get lots of rest and eat a healthy diet. I know your trying to "get in shape"
Ill talk to ya bro.
Scott.

decepta-scott wrote: Well its about friggin time you and saber blade joined in this topic!
I was eager to discuss this with the two of you above all else. Not that I dont enjoy and respect each and every opinion from all members. We just have good debates IMO.
So, Supprise supprise Im going to have to disagree wioth you. I still believe that the seekers were to be the new seekers. Colors match, loyaltee matches (at least expenencially more than with any insecticon and seekers were just cooler more recognizable. I havnt time to type more points but I shall return!!!!
P.S. I gotta p.m. u in a bit sto. I got some potentially good news for you reguarding some generetions figures.
Take care pal. Get lots of rest and eat a healthy diet. I know your trying to "get in shape"
Ill talk to ya bro.
Scott.

I enjoy these debates as well, keeps my mind off my troubles., and I await your pm.

You can choose to believe the seekers were intended to be upgraded.........but theres no empirical evidence to support that belief.

The script doesnt support your belief, the script called for Cyclonus to be created by a bunch of mixed floating parts from different dead decepticons.

The story boards proves your belief to be flat wrong, the story boards asnd auter notes very clearly state and depict that Cyclonus was ade from Bombshell.

The finished film doesnt support your belief, the finished film clearly animated what the storyboard called for.

Most of The further projects that Hasbro has put out after the years dont support your belief, the official Hasbro fan club exclusive comics [Wreckers] clearly state that Skywarp became "Armada" the Cyclonus clone. The IDW 20th anniversary adaptation of the 86 movie clearly depicts Cyclonus being made from Bombshell.



Color scheme
In Cyclonus case, the colors match both Bombshell and Skywarp, so that doesnt help you.

Personality,Loyalty
Their personalities dont match up either, and while the tech spec speaks of some loyalties, but the cartoon never really showed or depicted Skywarp having a "great" amount of loyalty to anyone.The most loyal thing he did was in the first episode, nothing else really after that.

Bombshell showed a great amount of loyalty twards his fellow Insceticons, and not Megatron...........but Bombshell had the quality of loyalty.So again, this doesnt help you.

Coolness,Recognizably.
neither are really debatable, they are far to subjective.Some might find the insects cooler then planes,recognizably........I feel the Insceticons were more recognizable because they were a special team/sub group.You may feel different, we cant really debate thsat issue logically.
I havnt time to type more points but I shall return!

So again, You can choose to believe what you like,that they intended seekers/Skywarp to become Cyclonus.........but theres no empirical evidence to support that belief.

There were also some episodes of G1 in which Bombshell acted as a sort of de facto leader of the Insecticons. and Cyclonus was definitely capable enough to be a Decepticon leader, if not for his devout loyalty to Megatron preventing him from stepping up.

Skywarp, however, didn't quite show as much leadership skills as these two did.