The Energon Pub

Shadowman wrote:You know, if they stop using sweatshops, the price of toys will skyrocket.

We pretty much got that under universal agreement.

I don't see how Hasbro is to blame for this. They are in a highly competitve market. Children's entertainment includes toys, games, and video games. In order to compete, Hasbro needs products that are cheap to produce and cheap to sell. It is not Hasbro's fault that Chinese factories can outbid others when it comes to production costs. Yes, you heard that right, outbid. Hasbro doesn't own the factories or employ the workers. The Chinese government does, and they produce the toys as a contractor would build a house. Just like the construction industry, the cheaper contractor usually gets the most business. So do you blame the homeowner or the contractor for exploiting illegal immigrants? Typically, the employer is viewed as the villian, rather than the client. In Hasbro's case, I believe this to hold true.

I mean, they could contract with another factory in a different country, and I'm sure they have looked into it, but the added production costs passed onto the consumers would give them a disadvantage against their competitors. The only way to stop exploitation of Chinese workers would be a worldwide embargo against China. This may help, may not, but the one truth resulting from this action would be the increased exploitation of people in other poor countries. In short, as long as there is competition in a goods market combined with deprived areas of the world, there will be exploitation.

I'm going to add my thoughts here and to say that this won't stop me from collecting transformers either old or new and I strongly suspect that it won't stop most people here either.

I almost wanted to not say anything but to be completely honest I must say rambling on and on about topics like this on the internet will do little to no good!

If you feel so strongly about this issue either do something about it like writing to congress or directly to Hasbro since that is what you titled the thread or how about going to visit the factory managers themselves and quit whining about it on the internet in a big political speech to gain sympathy from transformers fans.

To me people ranting like this on the internet sound little different than the random nut case spouting off dogma at the street corners in every downtown major metropolis.

I for one will be adding to my transformers collection today! ebay here I come and making use of the ignore function this site has to offer.

I belong to the U.A.W. (United Auto Workers) Union and am very proud to be a part of it. It really is disturbing to think about the sweatshops not only in China but elsewhere also. In some form or another i've been informed through informational flyers or articles and even online about sweatshop labor and human rights violations. It really saddens me to think that at one time most things even toys were made in the U.S.A and now it's hard to find anything made here although they are out there you just have to look. Our country in a way is abandoning it's people by shipping most of it's manufacturing jobs overseas and soon it's management and corporate jobs. Everyone will eventually be effected by this. I know people try to save money by buying cheaper foreign goods but at what cost? Less than 1% of all imports from China are inspected which could be very dangerous for the security and health for the U.S. The only thing i would ask anyone is to just stop and think and get informed about this very important issue facing our country. You can write you congressman/women or just try looking at the labels of the items your buying to see where they're made. If our country keeps going this route we'll all be out of jobs and totally dependent on foreign countries for all of our goods. We have to support each other and become a more self sufficient country again. Just think and get informed that's all anyone can do. We can't change the world over night.

Down_Shift wrote:I agree with Stormy, this belongs in TFGD.

However... thank you for this article. It is very sad to accept the fact that many many children brake there backs and sweat till it hurts just to make less then the cost of a happy meal each week.

At least they are getting paid though. Some people don't even get paid. There called slaves. Either way, life isn't fair.

I would much rather have children working in sweatshops than the alternatives, living off of crime or dying from hunger. Those wages seem pitiful to you and I, but they obviously give the workers enough to live on.

One of the big issues I have with this argument is that it is from our point of view. We say they work 14 hours a day and make $30 a week and thing that is bad. Why? Do you take into account their culture? Their cost of living? Anything? No. It's just another silly argument because we thing they should make enough money to have a car, a condo, and a Starbucks Coffee.

Do you realize that most of these people would work 14 hours a day anyway on a farm and have been doing so for hundreds of years? To them, this is is probably less work and it gives them the opportunity to buy better grains and feed for their cattle afforoding them a much better life.

You do realize that most of these people in these countries live off of no salary right? Look at the salt traders of Chile, they work crazy hours in grueling conditions to trade salt for food. They make no money, but trade for neccesities. And you know what, they also take a lot of pride in their work and spend a lot of time together with their family. I don't think they would take the western lifestyle if you gave it to them for free.

I wouldn't mind paying a higher price for a toy if I knew it wasn't made in a sweatshop. Plus the Chinese factories tend to add "ingrediants" that aren't really that good for you.

I agree that sweatshops are wrong, thats why in the US countless laws and mandates have been set against them.

These same laws, which dont aply in other countries are the main reason for the endless outsourcing in the American market, as domestic companies can hire outside help to do a job for cheaper. This applies to cars, toys, food, call canters, hell you name it...

It's a free market economy at it's finest, exploiting bot the pros and cons of civil rights

Now as per the initial post, it seems as if Hasbro is taking actions by noticing these overseas conditions. It makes sense as they've been quite charitable for a multinational corporation whith there anti lead initiatives and what not.

Now is it there right to out scource to a company in China that can produce a quality product for less, YES!

Is it their responsibility to to control forigen policy, NO

As Americans we find ourselves in a "damed if you do damed if you don't" policy.

So I say since we're only damed anyway, let these forien countries take the same steps we did in civil rights. These movements where not a walk in the park, and paved hystoric steps in individual rights...

But whatever, if China or any other nation take up there own flags.

Am I expecting alot of "Screw You American" flack for this, yeah, but do I think I'm wrong, no!

To Non Americans reading this, take that finger your getting ready to point and use it to underline the flaws in your own systems. Take a note from our pages, yeah we've done some stuff wrong, but we've done alot of stuff great too!

Liege Evilmus wrote:
To Non Americans reading this, take that finger your getting ready to point and use it to underline the flaws in your own systems. Take a note from our pages, yeah we've done some stuff wrong, but we've done alot of stuff great too!

What always gets me about the world is other nations are always quick to point the finger at the usa and say see look at those greedy capitalists and their twisted ways but as I've read a lot of history of many foreign cultures they are very quick to hide their own atrocities and civil rights abuses where they are guilty as much slavery,racism,religious oppression...the list goes on and on but they like to act like it's only happening in the usa or ever did here on the planet.

The usa is a much younger country so obviously these issues have not and will not be fixed for some time so to the countries and cultures that have been around for hundreds or thousands of years longer than us what are their excuses for not fixing them in their own lands ?

I'm not going to name these countries it's all a part of history and for each individual to uncover the truth but it's all to easy to blame america for the worlds problems as it's been an all too popular excuse to use for a very long time.

moldavite wrote:
Although these efforts are praiseworthy, Hasbro has been inactive in trying to stop sweatshop use. It continues to source toys from factories with documented labor and human rights violations, where people are forced to work for as little as 17 cents an hour and accrue countless hours of unpaid overtime labor. Filthy and dangerous working conditions are commonplace in toy factories. The issue has grabbed the attention of its shareholders who filed a resolution calling for increased efforts by Hasbro and others to end human rights abuses by suppliers.

now you know why its cheaper to impore everything from across seas. Of course the corporations don't sell the products to us any cheaper. The just pocket the difference with a big grin.

The bottom line is that what is happening is wrong! It's the reasoning behind what the corporations are doing that's depriving americans of jobs and a chance at making a decent living. You don't see the people producing these products wearing them or playing with them because they can't afford them on making pennies on the dollar. It's time for us as Americans or where ever this is happening to you and your fellow countrymen/women to stop making excuses and support your people! You can blame free trade or whom ever you want but it's important to at least try and make a difference no matter how insignificant it may seem! I would like to see anyone go and do what these children or adults are doing and then see what you would have to say. The fact of the matter is these people are being exploited for profit and nothing more. Not so they can have a better life for themselves or there families and a secure future for generations to come. We are not all going to stop buying Tfs because of this and i don't expect anyone to. We can at least aknowledge the problem and be aware of it and try to do our little part! U.A.W. Local 1112!

Defcon! wrote:The bottom line is that what is happening is wrong! It's the reasoning behind what the corporations are doing that's depriving americans of jobs and a chance at making a decent living. You don't see the people producing these products wearing them or playing with them because they can't afford them on making pennies on the dollar. It's time for us as Americans or where ever this is happening to you and your fellow countrymen/women to stop making excuses and support your people! You can blame free trade or whom ever you want but it's important to at least try and make a difference no matter how insignificant it may seem! I would like to see anyone go and do what these children or adults are doing and then see what you would have to say. The fact of the matter is these people are being exploited for profit and nothing more. Not so they can have a better life for themselves or there families and a secure future for generations to come. We are not all going to stop buying Tfs because of this and i don't expect anyone to. We can at least aknowledge the problem and be aware of it and try to do our little part! U.A.W. Local 1112!

So your assuming these people want an 8 hour day and were forced into labor? Read my post above, and like I said, these cultures always worked hard and started young, except now they are inside instead of the grueling outdoors. And many people there are used to working with the barter system...meaning they live on $0 a year and still get by. People forget that other cultures ahve been busting there ass a long as the sun shines for centuries. Just because we think they should be living like us is well, obnoxious. They also seem to have more values probably due to the lack of greed that a western society has. What is there divorce rate? Probably almost nothing.

And I don't understand what the UAW has to do with this? It seems they are driving the automotive industry out of this country. Toyota pays a lower payroll than Unionized shops and there employess make MORE money. I work in the building industry and I don't understand why a guy gets paid $48 to sit in the elevator and push the button. Knowing the salaries of both the union employees and non-union, they are getting paid the same, but the non-union guys have steadier work.

Blackstreak wrote:now you know why its cheaper to impore everything from across seas. Of course the corporations don't sell the products to us any cheaper. The just pocket the difference with a big grin.

Yes. Yes they do. It's called "Profit." You don't start a business if you're not out to make money.

To all the people complaining about corporations being a machine (they're not) and driven only by profits: well, duh, it's basic economics. Stockholders (you know people, not machines) invest in a company expecting a return on their investment. 401k's and various other retirement accounts are dependant on these 'evil' profits to repay the initial investment that the individuals (again, not a machine or entity) made.

Personnally, I believe a hostile tax system as well as an unreasonable demand of high pay for low skill jobs by American workers is causing the outsourcing of these companies. This outsourcing cannot and should not be regulated by the imperialist federal government.

People like to hear that the 'evil' corporations are being made to pay their 'fair share' of taxes, never realizing that the corporations can't just print up money from nowhere like the imperialist federal government. That cost has to be offset, while also not running off investors, who will only invest to get a return on their investment. So, when China says, 'Hey, we have a cheap labor source and will not charge you the high taxes that the USA will' the company, to protect the profits and the investors, will relocate.

And on the point of unreasonable demand for higher wages, whenever you vote to increase the minimum wage, that's what you vote for. I'm sorry, but just because you can ask about the attachment of fries to a hamburger does not qualify you to make $8 an hour. A minimum wage job is designed to start people off learning the job market, how to follow a schedule, how to dress appropriately for business, how hard work will increase your salary and more to learn how to be successful. If your choices in life lead you making a career in the McDonald's drive through, then that's your decision. Don't make someone else pick up your tab and pay you extra to do it.

Lastly, I'm not surprised to hear that the main sources of information on these topics are the US Government, Unions, and college professors.


This post in no way is intended to denigrate minimum wage jobs, they are very useful tools for high school students and undergrads to learn how the job market really works.

Also, the above post does not comment on the enviromental or sweatshop conditions, as those are not the fault or responsibility of the United States or its citizens. Those conditions exist because of the governments of their respective locations.

GetterDragun wrote:

Defcon! wrote:The bottom line is that what is happening is wrong! It's the reasoning behind what the corporations are doing that's depriving americans of jobs and a chance at making a decent living. You don't see the people producing these products wearing them or playing with them because they can't afford them on making pennies on the dollar. It's time for us as Americans or where ever this is happening to you and your fellow countrymen/women to stop making excuses and support your people! You can blame free trade or whom ever you want but it's important to at least try and make a difference no matter how insignificant it may seem! I would like to see anyone go and do what these children or adults are doing and then see what you would have to say. The fact of the matter is these people are being exploited for profit and nothing more. Not so they can have a better life for themselves or there families and a secure future for generations to come. We are not all going to stop buying Tfs because of this and i don't expect anyone to. We can at least aknowledge the problem and be aware of it and try to do our little part! U.A.W. Local 1112!

So your assuming these people want an 8 hour day and were forced into labor? Read my post above, and like I said, these cultures always worked hard and started young, except now they are inside instead of the grueling outdoors. And many people there are used to working with the barter system...meaning they live on $0 a year and still get by. People forget that other cultures ahve been busting there ass a long as the sun shines for centuries. Just because we think they should be living like us is well, obnoxious. They also seem to have more values probably due to the lack of greed that a western society has. What is there divorce rate? Probably almost nothing.

And I don't understand what the UAW has to do with this? It seems they are driving the automotive industry out of this country. Toyota pays a lower payroll than Unionized shops and there employess make MORE money. I work in the building industry and I don't understand why a guy gets paid $48 to sit in the elevator and push the button. Knowing the salaries of both the union employees and non-union, they are getting paid the same, but the non-union guys have steadier work.

No i'm not saying they were all forced into labor but i'm also saying some probably were. And i'm sure they work hard and start young just like people here work hard and start young. Over here though we have more of a choice and better worker protection rights. I don't think other cultures should be living exactly like us but i'm sure some of these people in these shops want change but are afraid of the consequences. Some may not some may be happy and wake up with a smile as they walk miles to work as they just got done working a 16hr. day a few hrs. before. I'm not saying this for every corporation or every factory or every individual over there but it does exist. I just added the U.A.W. because this issue is important to me and i'm a proud member that's all. I don't get jealous or resent a proffesional sports athelete or a colledge grad who spent yrs. of hard work to achieve his degree and make a great salary. I would'nt care if someone sat on an elevator and pushed a button for $48 an hr. more power to him. Certain people in the auto industry have those jobs but also have been working there for 30+ yrs. I don't think the U.A.W. is pushing the auto industry out of this country either they've fought for many yrs. to keep jobs and make things better for it's members. The American auto industry is hurting though there's no doubt about it that's why the U.A.W. and the big three are working together to make changes. People sometimes forget that it was the American auto workers factories that switched over to make vehicles, ammunition ect. for WWII to fight and protect and defend our country among others as well. Well people will buy what they want and make their own choices that's what great about this country the freedom to choose. I just try to do what i can that's all and in no way am i perfect. This will be the last post on this thread for me to heated for my blood and i'm going to botcon and buying lots of Tfs made in china and Japan so now i feel guilty and think i should commit hari kari or something!

Defcon! wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:

Defcon! wrote:The bottom line is that what is happening is wrong! It's the reasoning behind what the corporations are doing that's depriving americans of jobs and a chance at making a decent living. You don't see the people producing these products wearing them or playing with them because they can't afford them on making pennies on the dollar. It's time for us as Americans or where ever this is happening to you and your fellow countrymen/women to stop making excuses and support your people! You can blame free trade or whom ever you want but it's important to at least try and make a difference no matter how insignificant it may seem! I would like to see anyone go and do what these children or adults are doing and then see what you would have to say. The fact of the matter is these people are being exploited for profit and nothing more. Not so they can have a better life for themselves or there families and a secure future for generations to come. We are not all going to stop buying Tfs because of this and I don't expect anyone to. We can at least aknowledge the problem and be aware of it and try to do our little part! U.A.W. Local 1112!

So your assuming these people want an 8 hour day and were forced into labor? Read my post above, and like I said, these cultures always worked hard and started young, except now they are inside instead of the grueling outdoors. And many people there are used to working with the barter system...meaning they live on $0 a year and still get by. People forget that other cultures ahve been busting there ass a long as the sun shines for centuries. Just because we think they should be living like us is well, obnoxious. They also seem to have more values probably due to the lack of greed that a western society has. What is there divorce rate? Probably almost nothing.

And I don't understand what the UAW has to do with this? It seems they are driving the automotive industry out of this country. Toyota pays a lower payroll than Unionized shops and there employess make MORE money. I work in the building industry and I don't understand why a guy gets paid $48 to sit in the elevator and push the button. Knowing the salaries of both the union employees and non-union, they are getting paid the same, but the non-union guys have steadier work.

No i'm not saying they were all forced into labor but i'm also saying some probably were. And i'm sure they work hard and start young just like people here work hard and start young. Over here though we have more of a choice and better worker protection rights. I don't think other cultures should be living exactly like us but i'm sure some of these people in these shops want change but are afraid of the consequences. Some may not some may be happy and wake up with a smile as they walk miles to work as they just got done working a 16hr. day a few hrs. before. I'm not saying this for every corporation or every factory or every individual over there but it does exist. I just added the U.A.W. because this issue is important to me and i'm a proud member that's all. I don't get jealous or resent a proffesional sports athelete or a colledge grad who spent yrs. of hard work to achieve his degree and make a great salary. I would'nt care if someone sat on an elevator and pushed a button for $48 an hr. more power to him. Certain people in the auto industry have those jobs but also have been working there for 30+ yrs. I don't think the U.A.W. is pushing the auto industry out of this country either they've fought for many yrs. to keep jobs and make things better for it's members. The American auto industry is hurting though there's no doubt about it that's why the U.A.W. and the big three are working together to make changes. People sometimes forget that it was the American auto workers factories that switched over to make vehicles, ammunition ect. for WWII to fight and protect and defend our country among others as well. Well people will buy what they want and make their own choices that's what great about this country the freedom to choose. I just try to do what i can that's all and in no way am i perfect. This will be the last post on this thread for me to heated for my blood and i'm going to botcon and buying lots of Tfs made in china and Japan so now i feel guilty and think i should commit hari kari or something!

You've made good points in this thread, stay!

What I meant by the $48 an hour is that there are some jobs that seem needed just because of the possibility for someone to make a stink on the job site. This drives up the cost of the job unnecesarily causing somem people to look for labor elsewhere.

You also brought up what I feel is teh polar opposit of sweatshop labor...sports players. I think it is disgusting that people make $100 million playing a sports. I understand why they get paid (great players, bring more crowds and thus generates higher revenues), but it proves that sports is only a business now and no one seems to want to play to play, now it's pay to play. I think they should be capped and the extra money go to some worthwile organization. People are getting way to greedy today and realied that if they gave up a little to help out their fellow person, that this world would be a better place.

I told my professor that I and other should just stop buying the products of companies that employ sweatshop labor.

However, surprisingly, she told me that would do nothing. First, I would be just one a few people who did it, which would amount to nothing. Second, if large numbers of people did it, it would only put thousands, and perhaps, millions of people out of jobs. Even if their jobs pay them practically nothing, being put out on the street will probabely be worse for them and their families. The high levels of toxins they are exposed to is another story.

She told me that what is needed is not to quit buying these companies' products. Instead, greater awareness and political action need to be created.

She's not even saying to pay them the exact same wages people are paid in the United States. She's realistic and knows that if the companies were required to pay the people in other countries what they are paid here, the companies would have no reason to be there and the people would loose their jobs.

What she is saying is that the people in other countries should be paid a "living wage" for that country. Since the living wages of third world countries are much lower than they are here, the companies would still make large profits. In Tijuana, since the poverty line wage is $300/month, a living wage there is probabely $400-$500 per month. The companies there could pay their employees that salary and still make quite a profit, since they would have to pay a US worker about twice to three times that amount. They won't make as much of a profit as they are making now. The CEOs, instead of pocketing a salary about 400-500 times what an average employee makes will have to settle for one maybe 2/3 to 1/2 as large. But they are still making a sh!tload of money, so who cares.

According to her, U.S. based companies should also have to abide by the same labor and environmental laws in other countries as they have to abide by here. The U.S. should be given the ability to enforce those laws in other countries. Or universal international environmental laws and labor laws should be created which all companies in existance, no matter which country they are in, have to abide by.

And no, I am NOT for complete lack of regulation of companies by governments. That's a mistake. Companies are not persons and do not deserve special rights and privaledges all for themselves. They are corporate entities capable of mass harm if they are allowed to run amuck and do whatever they want. History testifies to this. Look what happened in the late 1800s in this country when there was less government regulation. When minimum wage standards didn't exist. An example of this are the railroad strikes in this time period. There was a depression which resulted in the railroad companies paying their workers 1/2 of what they were already being paid. These workers were not paid a lot to begin with and could barely afford to keep themselves and their families alive. When their pay was cut in half, they decided to strike, only to find their bosses riding in on horses with guns and swords trying to stampede them and shut their riots down. The heads of these companies were still able to make profits, even in a recession with keeping the workers pay as it was. They just wanted to keep their profits the same or larger, so they decided to cut the pay of those who did all the work and were paid the least.

National and international regulation of these corporations is needed to keep them from ruthlessly exploiting people worldwide and trashing the ecology of this planet in the process.

They can still make profits and be successful. They just can't be absolute whores and pigs as they go about it.

I'm not asking that anyone quits their Transformers hobby and stops buying the toys. I don't buy the toys, because I don't feel the need to do so. I'm more into the movies and shows pertaining to the product.

What I'm simply asking is that whenever you buy a product, consider the amount of unfair treatment that some worker far away endured to make that product which cost many times more than his or her wages.

Get active and write Hasbro and your politicians about this issue. Try to bring awareness to this issue. Because you never know with the way things are going. We could all one day be in a similar boat as these sweatshop workers are.

Think about how lucky we are as U.S. citizens. Yes, things are not perfect here. Many improvements need to be made.

But after visiting Tijuana, I realized just how spoiled and privaledged we are compared to the rest of the world. Even the poorest of us lives in a place that is far better built and insulated than the shacks I saw there. We do not have to fret as much about the quality of our water and air like those in Tijuana do, many of whom suffer from high rates of cancer and toxic poisoning as a result of such pollution. We are on average given far better working conditions and exposed to far less toxins than the workers there are. On average, we are able to afford more to eat than a jug of milk, beans, and tortillas on a daily basis. We are able to live an existance that is more than hand and mouth. We have money for a few luxury items on average. Many of you have money for your Transformers toys. I have money here and there to buy crystals and stones, which I am into. We are able to afford things like traveling, going to movies, etc. All things we take for granted that the sweatshop workers in other countries don't even consider because they can't afford them. We are truly a spoiled and privaledged bunch and we need to start caring about our fellow human beings on this planet, most of whom don't enjoy even a tenth of what we have.

moldavite wrote:I told my professor that I and other should just stop buying the products of companies that employ sweatshop labor.

However, surprisingly, she told me that would do nothing. First, I would be just one a few people who did it, which would amount to nothing. Second, if large numbers of people did it, it would only put thousands, and perhaps, millions of people out of jobs. Even if their jobs pay them practically nothing, being put out on the street will probabely be worse for them and their families. The high levels of toxins they are exposed to is another story.

She's not even saying to pay them the exact same wages people are paid in the United States. She's realistic and knows that if the companies were required to pay the people in other countries what they are paid here, the companies would have no reason to be there and the people would loose their jobs.

What she is saying is that the people in other countries should be paid a "living wage" for that country. Since the living wages of third world countries are much lower than they are here, the companies would still make large profits. In Tijuana, since the poverty line wage is $300/month, a living wage there is probabely $400-$500 per month. The companies there could pay their employees that salary and still make quite a profit, since they would have to pay a US worker about twice to three times that amount. They won't make as much of a profit as they are making now. The CEOs, instead of pocketing a salary about 400-500 times what an average employee makes will have to settle for one maybe 2/3 to 1/2 as large. They are still making a sh!tload of money, so who cares.

According to her, U.S. based companies should also have to abide by the same labor and environmental laws in other countries as they have to abide by here. The U.S. should be given the ability to enforce those laws in other countries. Or universal international environmental laws and labor laws should be created which all companies in existance, no matter which country they are in, have to abide by.

And no, I am NOT for complete lack of regulation of companies by governments. Companies are not persons and do not deserve special rights and privaledges all for themselves. They are corporate entities capable of mass harm if they are allowed to run amuck and do whatever they want. History testifies to this. Look what happened in the late 1800s in this country when there was less government regulation. When minimum wage standards didn't exist. An example of this are the railroad strikes in this time period. There was a depression which resulted in the railroad companies paying their workers 1/2 of what they were already being paid. These workers were not paid a lot to begin with and could barely afford to keep themselves and their families alive. When their pay was cut in half, they decided to strike, only to find their bosses riding in on horses with guns and swords trying to stampede them and shut their riots down.

National and international regulation of these corporations is needed to keep them from ruthlessly exploiting people worldwide and trashing the ecology of this planet in the process.

They can still make profits and be successful. They just can't be absolute whores and pigs as they go about it.

Sounds like all propaganda to me. Are their bad conditions for workers in some countries? Yes? But why whould we go around policing it. It's not the governments allowing this to happen, it's the cultural norms of the people in that area allowing it. I'm sure if conditions were that bad the locals would not tolerate it. But you talk about a living wage. What about people in third world countries that live off the barter system? How can you equate a "living wage" to a lifestyle when these people have been living this way for hundreds of years? Are you saying that a living wage would allow them to buy milk versus farm it for your self?Have you proposed that question to your teacher?

Having done work in India, I can tell you it is crazy poor. But work conditions provided by foreign companies are significantly better than local Indian owned companies. I think this is cultural because in India the caste system stil plays a big role and they do treat loweer caste workers like crap, but western companies don't do that. They just see it as getting good work for a bargain. Which is why most Indians will prefer to work for a Western Corporation.

So what does your teacher say to the fact that the average wage paid by the Western Company is higher than most local wages?

GetterDragun wrote:One of the big issues I have with this argument is that it is from our point of view. We say they work 14 hours a day and make $30 a week and thing that is bad. Why? Do you take into account their culture? Their cost of living? Anything? No. It's just another silly argument because we thing they should make enough money to have a car, a condo, and a Starbucks Coffee.

Do you realize that most of these people would work 14 hours a day anyway on a farm and have been doing so for hundreds of years? To them, this is is probably less work and it gives them the opportunity to buy better grains and feed for their cattle afforoding them a much better life.

You do realize that most of these people in these countries live off of no salary right? Look at the salt traders of Chile, they work crazy hours in grueling conditions to trade salt for food. They make no money, but trade for neccesities. And you know what, they also take a lot of pride in their work and spend a lot of time together with their family. I don't think they would take the western lifestyle if you gave it to them for free.

It isn't quite that simple. Yes, there are some who work crazy hours and take great pride in doing so. And yes, for many understandable reasons, many reject our materialistic Western culture.

But in a great deal many countries, sweatshop workers are women who have kids to take care of who want to live at least somewhat above the poverty line which the sweatshop wages do not afford for the most part so they can take care of not only themselves, but their children as well.

And it isn't just wages. It's the toxicity and working conditions as well.

Many of the maquiladora workers did not mention their pay right away as being their problem. They were concerned about the high levels of toxins they were exposed to in conjunction with being denied such basic needs as being able to go to the bathroom.

Even in regards to pay, what upsetted a great many is that they often had to work more hours than they were given pay for. Many were afraid to speak out about this issue after seeing what happened to their coworkers for doing so (they got fired immediately afterwards).

GetterDragun wrote:

moldavite wrote:I told my professor that I and other should just stop buying the products of companies that employ sweatshop labor.

However, surprisingly, she told me that would do nothing. First, I would be just one a few people who did it, which would amount to nothing. Second, if large numbers of people did it, it would only put thousands, and perhaps, millions of people out of jobs. Even if their jobs pay them practically nothing, being put out on the street will probabely be worse for them and their families. The high levels of toxins they are exposed to is another story.

She's not even saying to pay them the exact same wages people are paid in the United States. She's realistic and knows that if the companies were required to pay the people in other countries what they are paid here, the companies would have no reason to be there and the people would loose their jobs.

What she is saying is that the people in other countries should be paid a "living wage" for that country. Since the living wages of third world countries are much lower than they are here, the companies would still make large profits. In Tijuana, since the poverty line wage is $300/month, a living wage there is probabely $400-$500 per month. The companies there could pay their employees that salary and still make quite a profit, since they would have to pay a US worker about twice to three times that amount. They won't make as much of a profit as they are making now. The CEOs, instead of pocketing a salary about 400-500 times what an average employee makes will have to settle for one maybe 2/3 to 1/2 as large. They are still making a sh!tload of money, so who cares.

According to her, U.S. based companies should also have to abide by the same labor and environmental laws in other countries as they have to abide by here. The U.S. should be given the ability to enforce those laws in other countries. Or universal international environmental laws and labor laws should be created which all companies in existance, no matter which country they are in, have to abide by.

And no, I am NOT for complete lack of regulation of companies by governments. Companies are not persons and do not deserve special rights and privaledges all for themselves. They are corporate entities capable of mass harm if they are allowed to run amuck and do whatever they want. History testifies to this. Look what happened in the late 1800s in this country when there was less government regulation. When minimum wage standards didn't exist. An example of this are the railroad strikes in this time period. There was a depression which resulted in the railroad companies paying their workers 1/2 of what they were already being paid. These workers were not paid a lot to begin with and could barely afford to keep themselves and their families alive. When their pay was cut in half, they decided to strike, only to find their bosses riding in on horses with guns and swords trying to stampede them and shut their riots down.

National and international regulation of these corporations is needed to keep them from ruthlessly exploiting people worldwide and trashing the ecology of this planet in the process.

They can still make profits and be successful. They just can't be absolute whores and pigs as they go about it.

Sounds like all propaganda to me. Are their bad conditions for workers in some countries? Yes? But why whould we go around policing it. It's not the governments allowing this to happen, it's the cultural norms of the people in that area allowing it. I'm sure if conditions were that bad the locals would not tolerate it. But you talk about a living wage. What about people in third world countries that live off the barter system? How can you equate a "living wage" to a lifestyle when these people have been living this way for hundreds of years? Are you saying that a living wage would allow them to buy milk versus farm it for your self?Have you proposed that question to your teacher?

Having done work in India, I can tell you it is crazy poor. But work conditions provided by foreign companies are significantly better than local Indian owned companies. I think this is cultural because in India the caste system stil plays a big role and they do treat loweer caste workers like crap, but western companies don't do that. They just see it as getting good work for a bargain. Which is why most Indians will prefer to work for a Western Corporation.

So what does your teacher say to the fact that the average wage paid by the Western Company is higher than most local wages?

It's partially the cultural norms, but it's more complex than that. And oftentimes, sweatshop corporations capitalize on those norms for their own benefit, oftentimes even making such norms stronger as a result.

And yes, there are some foreign companies that offer better conditions than local companies do. But a great deal don't. They will swing a carrot and promise better pay and conditions to attract low wage workers. But many times, they do not deliver on their promises and the workers get far less than they thought. Most companies don't offer better working conditions or much better working conditions as their incentive to work for them. They instead focus more on SLIGHTLY better wages instead, because most impoverished people are more concerned about them.

One of the big dangers is the toxins. A great deal of these companies expose their employees to far higher levels of toxins than permitted in this country. Many, especially from agricultural areas, never were exposed to those levels of toxins within local companies. Many develop serious health problems as a result along with the water and air becoming more polluted from factory waste.

moldavite wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:

moldavite wrote:I told my professor that I and other should just stop buying the products of companies that employ sweatshop labor.

However, surprisingly, she told me that would do nothing. First, I would be just one a few people who did it, which would amount to nothing. Second, if large numbers of people did it, it would only put thousands, and perhaps, millions of people out of jobs. Even if their jobs pay them practically nothing, being put out on the street will probabely be worse for them and their families. The high levels of toxins they are exposed to is another story.

She's not even saying to pay them the exact same wages people are paid in the United States. She's realistic and knows that if the companies were required to pay the people in other countries what they are paid here, the companies would have no reason to be there and the people would loose their jobs.

What she is saying is that the people in other countries should be paid a "living wage" for that country. Since the living wages of third world countries are much lower than they are here, the companies would still make large profits. In Tijuana, since the poverty line wage is $300/month, a living wage there is probabely $400-$500 per month. The companies there could pay their employees that salary and still make quite a profit, since they would have to pay a US worker about twice to three times that amount. They won't make as much of a profit as they are making now. The CEOs, instead of pocketing a salary about 400-500 times what an average employee makes will have to settle for one maybe 2/3 to 1/2 as large. They are still making a sh!tload of money, so who cares.

According to her, U.S. based companies should also have to abide by the same labor and environmental laws in other countries as they have to abide by here. The U.S. should be given the ability to enforce those laws in other countries. Or universal international environmental laws and labor laws should be created which all companies in existance, no matter which country they are in, have to abide by.

And no, I am NOT for complete lack of regulation of companies by governments. Companies are not persons and do not deserve special rights and privaledges all for themselves. They are corporate entities capable of mass harm if they are allowed to run amuck and do whatever they want. History testifies to this. Look what happened in the late 1800s in this country when there was less government regulation. When minimum wage standards didn't exist. An example of this are the railroad strikes in this time period. There was a depression which resulted in the railroad companies paying their workers 1/2 of what they were already being paid. These workers were not paid a lot to begin with and could barely afford to keep themselves and their families alive. When their pay was cut in half, they decided to strike, only to find their bosses riding in on horses with guns and swords trying to stampede them and shut their riots down.

National and international regulation of these corporations is needed to keep them from ruthlessly exploiting people worldwide and trashing the ecology of this planet in the process.

They can still make profits and be successful. They just can't be absolute whores and pigs as they go about it.

Sounds like all propaganda to me. Are their bad conditions for workers in some countries? Yes? But why whould we go around policing it. It's not the governments allowing this to happen, it's the cultural norms of the people in that area allowing it. I'm sure if conditions were that bad the locals would not tolerate it. But you talk about a living wage. What about people in third world countries that live off the barter system? How can you equate a "living wage" to a lifestyle when these people have been living this way for hundreds of years? Are you saying that a living wage would allow them to buy milk versus farm it for your self?Have you proposed that question to your teacher?

Having done work in India, I can tell you it is crazy poor. But work conditions provided by foreign companies are significantly better than local Indian owned companies. I think this is cultural because in India the caste system stil plays a big role and they do treat loweer caste workers like crap, but western companies don't do that. They just see it as getting good work for a bargain. Which is why most Indians will prefer to work for a Western Corporation.

So what does your teacher say to the fact that the average wage paid by the Western Company is higher than most local wages?

It's partially the cultural norms, but it's more complex than that. And oftentimes, sweatshop corporations capitalize on those norms for their own benefit, oftentimes even making such norms stronger as a result.

And yes, there are some foreign companies that offer better conditions than local companies do. But a great deal don't. They will swing a carrot and promise better pay and conditions to attract low wage workers. But many times, they do not deliver on their promises and the workers get far less than they thought. Most companies don't offer better working conditions or much better working conditions as their incentive to work for them. They instead focus more on SLIGHTLY better wages instead, because most impoverished people are more concerned about them.

One of the big dangers is the toxins. A great deal of these companies expose their employees to far higher levels of toxins than permitted in this country. Many, especially from agricultural areas, never were exposed to those levels of toxins within local companies. Many develop serious health problems as a result along with the water and air becoming more polluted from factory waste.

We should have policing of at least U.S. based companies because we are supposed to be a country which upholds human rights. We think that terrorists and those countries that support them are the biggest threats to human rights. So many people are either ignorant of or ignore the fact that corporations are abusing millions of people left and right on this planet.

This country has no right to condemn human rights abuses in other countries when it supports such abuses by allowing its companies to locate in other lands and exploit and abuse people ruthlessly there. This nation loves to boast how it is so freedom loving and antislavery. Yet it is allowing its corporations to work people like serfs and near slaves.

Now its not just the corporations I realize. The regimes of those countries are to blame as well. The corporations moved to those countries precisely because their regimes would allow for such ruthless exploitation that would benefit them. However, this country, which preaches human rights and freedom-loving, should not be supporting these regimes through its economic policies (by allowing its corporations to take advantage of such regimes) anymore than it should be supporting repressive regimes in other ways.

Again, the United States is a massive hypocrite. But it's not the only hypocrite. I love how people brag and brag about the European Union upholding it as a shining example to the "evil empire" of the United States. The E.U. is doing a lot of the same crap with its corporations. So is Japan. So are many other countries.

moldavite wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:One of the big issues I have with this argument is that it is from our point of view. We say they work 14 hours a day and make $30 a week and thing that is bad. Why? Do you take into account their culture? Their cost of living? Anything? No. It's just another silly argument because we thing they should make enough money to have a car, a condo, and a Starbucks Coffee.

Do you realize that most of these people would work 14 hours a day anyway on a farm and have been doing so for hundreds of years? To them, this is is probably less work and it gives them the opportunity to buy better grains and feed for their cattle afforoding them a much better life.

You do realize that most of these people in these countries live off of no salary right? Look at the salt traders of Chile, they work crazy hours in grueling conditions to trade salt for food. They make no money, but trade for neccesities. And you know what, they also take a lot of pride in their work and spend a lot of time together with their family. I don't think they would take the western lifestyle if you gave it to them for free.

It isn't quite that simple. Yes, there are some who work crazy hours and take great pride in doing so. And yes, for many understandable reasons, many reject our materialistic Western culture.

But in a great deal many countries, sweatshop workers are women who have kids to take care of who want to live at least somewhat above the poverty line which the sweatshop wages do not afford for the most part so they can take care of not only themselves, but their children as well.

And it isn't just wages. It's the toxicity and working conditions as well.

Many of the maquiladora workers did not mention their pay right away as being their problem. They were concerned about the high levels of toxins they were exposed to in conjunction with being denied such basic needs as being able to go to the bathroom.

Even in regards to pay, what upsetted a great many is that they often had to work more hours than they were given pay for. Many were afraid to speak out about this issue after seeing what happened to their coworkers for doing so (they got fired immediately afterwards).

I agree with you about pollutions. There is no justification for western companies to lower there standards just because the country there in doesn't enforce it. I do disagree about the labor though. And Mexico is a bad example as it's not usually megacorporations cusing the issues, it's subcontractors and subcontractors of subcontractors causing the problems. Direct hirings by a Western Corporation is usually good. The problems arise when they subcontract other companies to hire foreign labor in another country. This also applies to American factories in the US that hire illegal labor. But again, certain factories near the border draw attention because of the contrast in condition to the states, but they don't show southern mexico where there is no Western Companies...it is much worse in comparison. So if they showed the two, you'd probably be thinking that Western companies were a benefit.

People will believe what they want to. Both sides make great arguments but really, until you've seen it all first hand, you just don't know.

All you can do is what Shakespeare recommends of you: To thine own self, be true.

GetterDragun

You've made good points in this thread, stay!

What I meant by the $48 an hour is that there are some jobs that seem needed just because of the possibility for someone to make a stink on the job site. This drives up the cost of the job unnecesarily causing somem people to look for labor elsewhere.

You also brought up what I feel is teh polar opposit of sweatshop labor...sports players. I think it is disgusting that people make $100 million playing a sports. I understand why they get paid (great players, bring more crowds and thus generates higher revenues), but it proves that sports is only a business now and no one seems to want to play to play, now it's pay to play. I think they should be capped and the extra money go to some worthwile organization. People are getting way to greedy today and realied that if they gave up a little to help out their fellow person, that this world would be a better place.

Ok i'll stay! And by the way i obviously did'nt commit hari kari thank God! Botcons only days away and i can't wait! There are so many things wrong with overseas jobs, overpayed sports atheletes, overpayed CEO's, sweatshop labor some of which resides in our own backyard, and a number of others. Even some unions have evolved into an entity they may not have been intended to. They were put into place to protect members rights and to stop unfair and discriminatory fireing practices against workers. It's basically a double edged sword for both sides if not monitored carefully and to serve the purpose it was intended to. The sports industry and owners goudged it's athletes from the early stages by paying them peanuts and not giving them proper health coverage which many old time athletes have suffered greatly. In turn now sports athletes pay them back in full with agents and union representation which i feel they grossly overabuse. Like many things we've taken something that would have been benificial to all and twisted it up and are now trying to change it to benefit everyone again but in the way it was intended. Things in my opinion have to be done by everyone from the regular joe to washington. We have to start taking care of our own first before we can help others. There are jobs in the manufacturing industry and others that alot of people think are overpayed and maybe they are. That's why unions and corporations are doing what they can do reduce costs, cut wages and pay for their benefits to make them more competitive and to still have the employees make a good wage. One things for sure it's almost impossible to compete with people making pennies on the dollar in wages with no sick leave, no maternity leave, no health benefits, no overtime pay ect. They may not need them or may be used to that kind of working lifestyle but Americans and other countless free trade countries are not. Put us up against people with the same standards of living as us and we can compete with anyone. That's where the goverment has to step in and make it a level playing field for us and others to compete. We import so much from these countries it's time they start taking our goods and products. This will probably not happen anytime soon but this informative disscussion with my fellow Seibertronians is a good start and many people regardless of their views on the matter bring alot of good arguments! out!

moldavite, have you and your classmates thought about going back to Tijuana to educate the workers? A grass roots hands on approach at the source would probably have a greater impact. You could teach them about improved working conditions, exposure to hazardous chemicals, and the ability to form unions or to unite.

As Getter and others have already mentioned - it seems to be a very popular thing to attack the U.S. companies and the U.S. government for the problems in other countries. The problem is a lack of education at the source.