The Energon Pub

william-james88 wrote:
And the truth is even fans know that deep down third party isn't the real thing and only a temporary substitute until Hasbro comes along with something they wanted. That mentality alone proves Hasbro's rightful superiority. Fansproject Warbot Defender's popularity is the equivalent of a fad.

Warbot Defender has likely dropped in value as he's annoyingly fiddly and a bit small and doesn't even scale well with many of the other FP toys. Steelcore has held his value pretty well though.

FP is a pretty poor example to pick on though as they have one of the most rabid of fanbases of any of the Third Party manufacturers.

That said that doesn't mean that they don't make some bad toys as they do make the odd stinker. (Their new Skullcruncher is especially dreadful looking).

I wouldn't say Hasbro automatically wins sometimes it's just down to the happen stance of them using their toys in the comics so associating that appearance with that Character.

I think Takara would have to make the most amazing Dinobots imaginable for people to want to abandon all the 3rd party offerings though I suppose some do think like that.

I don't I've likely bought more 3rd party toys in the last two years than I have Hasbro toys at retail.

I've come to the realisation I'd rather pay a bit more and have a better toy than pay nearly as much and get something Hasbro phoned in like Leader Jetfire.

I would also point out that one of the 3rd Party Ironhides also looks like a far superior toy to the Takara Masterpiece version too.

Perhaps the only place Takara does compete is at the high end the low end "Kids lines" the 3rd parties show little interest in as it is (I.e. they ignore Beast Wars)

I like the deco and I love the head sculpts. Despite already having the regular movie versions, I would totally pick this set up!

RAR wrote:

william-james88 wrote:
And the truth is even fans know that deep down third party isn't the real thing and only a temporary substitute until Hasbro comes along with something they wanted. That mentality alone proves Hasbro's rightful superiority. Fansproject Warbot Defender's popularity is the equivalent of a fad.

Warbot Defender has likely dropped in value as he's annoyingly fiddly and a bit small and doesn't even scale well with many of the other FP toys. Steelcore has held his value pretty well though.

FP is a pretty poor example to pick on though as they have one of the most rabid of fanbases of any of the Third Party manufacturers.

That said that doesn't mean that they don't make some bad toys as they do make the odd stinker. (Their new Skullcruncher is especially dreadful looking).

I wouldn't say Hasbro automatically wins sometimes it's just down to the happen stance of them using their toys in the comics so associating that appearance with that Character.

I think Takara would have to make the most amazing Dinobots imaginable for people to want to abandon all the 3rd party offerings though I suppose some do think like that.

I don't I've likely bought more 3rd party toys in the last two years than I have Hasbro toys at retail.

I've come to the realisation I'd rather pay a bit more and have a better toy than pay nearly as much and get something Hasbro phoned in like Leader Jetfire.

I would also point out that one of the 3rd Party Ironhides also looks like a far superior toy to the Takara Masterpiece version too.

Perhaps the only place Takara does compete is at the high end the low end "Kids lines" the 3rd parties show little interest in as it is (I.e. they ignore Beast Wars)

Thanks for your message, I agree with everything you bring up and you give a better example to what I was trying to say. Which is that while 3rd party may be the way for collectors to get the toys they want, it is a far more expensive option and it is not a guaranteed knock out.

(And of course, this is besides the point that if Hasbro wanted to, they could get rid of all 3rd party toys, as proven by the cease and desist requests at previous botcon for certain sellers. That alone warrants the fact that 3 p could never go up against Hasbro on a large scale, but since we all know that, I understand that it isnt brought up each time this conversation occurs. )

For close to the price of one third party dinobot, you are getting all 5 of them in a set. I personally find that more appealing as a placeholder while waiting for something better to come along from Hasbro.

Actually, Hasbro can do that at Botcon because they run it. 3rd party companies are very careful not to cross trademark boundaries. Anybody can make and sell a transforming toy, it's the trademarks you have to watch out for. Until they cross that line, Hasbro can do nothing. Believe me, if Hasbro could shut them down at anytime, they already would have.

You are very much right on the price point, though. 3rd party figures are very salty, and we are very willing to pay it!. I can't believe Hasbro doesn't act on that. The fans are willing to pay premium prices on the figures we really want, yet they still keep shoveling out junk. Every single store in my area that sells toys still has AOE figures, marked down for clearance, cluttering the shelves. Yet other than some stray Alpha bra is, dragstrips, and Primes, not a generation figure is to be found. They sell out, quickly, while movie crap lingers.

Maybe it's just my area, but to me, that the a very telling on what the consumer really wants, and it feels like Hasbro could give a rats ass.

Yeah, I'm far more pissed than I should be, and may be acting a bit of a prat, but these are the Dinobots, and Hasbro just took a deuce on them.

Ironhidensh wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Woah woah wait, calm down guys. Why dont we just see this as an improved rerelease of the SDCC dinos instead? Its not like we were gonna get the dinobots next year with the teased toyline anyway. And plus, every year is one year further away from FOC grimlock so I didnt think they would go back to that aeshetic. They should, but I dont know if that makes any sense from their standpoint.

You can put a pretty ribbon on a turd, but it is still a turd. Sadly, the fandom shovels out mass amounts of money every time Hasbro does it.

These are the Dinobots. One of the most beloved of all the G1 lines. The deserve far more than repaints of horrible aoe toys. I knew this is what would happen. I expect d no better from Hasbro, and yet, there was still that part of me that hoped. That part is dead, the void filled with rage.

This is why the 3rd party market does so well, and someday may even rival Hastak. They give the consumer what they really want. Look at the Dinobot offerings from Toyworld, Fansprojects, or PlanetX, and then look at this "platinum" set, and you all tell me.

Seriously Hasbro, the Dinobots?? To hell with you.

So basically what you're saying is: My sense of aesthetics are wrong and what I like doesn't deserve to be made so I should just kill myself - right?

So I'll counter you, I hate most G1 toys, they have terrible toys, that lack character and innovative designs. I don't want blocky dinosaurs, I never will. I don't want a hippy van ironhide, I don't want another bumblebee - ever - and as far as I'm concerned the longer hasbro spends up the a$$ of g1'ers the sadder everyone who didn't grow up on G1 toys will be for their own franchise not getting any love.

Hellscream9999 wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Woah woah wait, calm down guys. Why dont we just see this as an improved rerelease of the SDCC dinos instead? Its not like we were gonna get the dinobots next year with the teased toyline anyway. And plus, every year is one year further away from FOC grimlock so I didnt think they would go back to that aeshetic. They should, but I dont know if that makes any sense from their standpoint.

You can put a pretty ribbon on a turd, but it is still a turd. Sadly, the fandom shovels out mass amounts of money every time Hasbro does it.

These are the Dinobots. One of the most beloved of all the G1 lines. The deserve far more than repaints of horrible aoe toys. I knew this is what would happen. I expect d no better from Hasbro, and yet, there was still that part of me that hoped. That part is dead, the void filled with rage.

This is why the 3rd party market does so well, and someday may even rival Hastak. They give the consumer what they really want. Look at the Dinobot offerings from Toyworld, Fansprojects, or PlanetX, and then look at this "platinum" set, and you all tell me.

Seriously Hasbro, the Dinobots?? To hell with you.

So basically what you're saying is: My sense of aesthetics are wrong and what I like doesn't deserve to be made so I should just kill myself - right?

So I'll counter you, I hate most G1 toys, they have terrible toys, that lack character and innovative designs. I don't want blocky dinosaurs, I never will. I don't want a hippy van ironhide, I don't want another bumblebee - ever - and as far as I'm concerned the longer hasbro spends up the a$$ of g1'ers the sadder everyone who didn't grow up on G1 toys will be for their own franchise not getting any love.

The Dinobots are G1. They are one of the biggest parts of G1. A generations line of Dinobots should reflect that. For me, a pretty head and new paint job on a crappy bayformer body doesn't cut it.

Ironhidensh wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Woah woah wait, calm down guys. Why dont we just see this as an improved rerelease of the SDCC dinos instead? Its not like we were gonna get the dinobots next year with the teased toyline anyway. And plus, every year is one year further away from FOC grimlock so I didnt think they would go back to that aeshetic. They should, but I dont know if that makes any sense from their standpoint.

You can put a pretty ribbon on a turd, but it is still a turd. Sadly, the fandom shovels out mass amounts of money every time Hasbro does it.

These are the Dinobots. One of the most beloved of all the G1 lines. The deserve far more than repaints of horrible aoe toys. I knew this is what would happen. I expect d no better from Hasbro, and yet, there was still that part of me that hoped. That part is dead, the void filled with rage.

This is why the 3rd party market does so well, and someday may even rival Hastak. They give the consumer what they really want. Look at the Dinobot offerings from Toyworld, Fansprojects, or PlanetX, and then look at this "platinum" set, and you all tell me.

Seriously Hasbro, the Dinobots?? To hell with you.

So basically what you're saying is: My sense of aesthetics are wrong and what I like doesn't deserve to be made so I should just kill myself - right?

So I'll counter you, I hate most G1 toys, they have terrible toys, that lack character and innovative designs. I don't want blocky dinosaurs, I never will. I don't want a hippy van ironhide, I don't want another bumblebee - ever - and as far as I'm concerned the longer hasbro spends up the a$$ of g1'ers the sadder everyone who didn't grow up on G1 toys will be for their own franchise not getting any love.

The Dinobots are G1. They are one of the biggest parts of G1. A generations line of Dinobots should reflect that. For me, a pretty head and new paint job on a crappy bayformer body doesn't cut it.

But this isn't 'generations' is it? it's platinum, it's not meant to be classics/gen canon. And sorry, but my 'dinobots' are the Darksyde Predacons and that will never change

Platinum Generations

Ironhidensh wrote:Actually, Hasbro can do that at Botcon because they run it. 3rd party companies are very careful not to cross trademark boundaries. Anybody can make and sell a transforming toy, it's the trademarks you have to watch out for. Until they cross that line, Hasbro can do nothing. Believe me, if Hasbro could shut them down at anytime, they already would have.

...
Yeah, I'm far more pissed than I should be, and may be acting a bit of a prat, but these are the Dinobots, and Hasbro just took a deuce on them.

Firstly, I do feel for you. I was born after G1 so I can't identify as much with this issue and this decision from Hasbro. All I can say is that I am sorry you are feeling this way right now. A hobby is made to be enjoyed, where someone goes to for enjoyment, so when one isn't having fun... it kinda defeats the purpose of having a hobby.

And secondly, I think the copyright may be more extensive than just a name. I believe character appearance would also be protected and Hasbro could sue.
Taken from TF wiki:

While a transformation is probably not protectable because it is functional, the overall look of the robot or alternate mode is protectable.

And I do not see how them running Botcon gives them an upper hand legally. If they are able to shut down vendors there, they are able elsewhere too. And Hasbro doesnt run Botcon, a licensee does (Fun Publications, which isn't owned by Hasbro). So feel free to explain how the location changes the legality of a product in a PM or here when you can. As far as I know, 3rd party companies can be sued but the effort and cost is not worth it for Hasbro. The fact that they are in China also complicates things since you are dealing with 2 country's laws.

I am wondering if fan backlash would have anything to do with it as well. Maybe with third party companies around, they dont feel as much pressure to respond to every single thing a fan wants at anytime since they know that their product will be bought when they get around to it. You give a very good example with the combiners. There were third party combiners around for a while, but the Hasbro version is still as, if not more, profitable as any other offerings in previous years.

Hellscream9999 wrote:But this isn't 'generations' is it? it's platinum, it's not meant to be classics/gen canon. And sorry, but my 'dinobots' are the Darksyde Predacons and that will never change

Actually it is. The first Platinum release and the New Year specials don't belong to any line, but since AoE the Platinum series has been integrated with Generations, including the reissues. You can see the logo in the upper right corner of each box.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:But this isn't 'generations' is it? it's platinum, it's not meant to be classics/gen canon. And sorry, but my 'dinobots' are the Darksyde Predacons and that will never change

Actually it is. The first Platinum release and the New Year specials don't belong to any line, but since AoE the Platinum series has been integrated with Generations, including the reissues. You can see the logo in the upper right corner of each box.

And for the record, so are the legions that came out this year like Ultra Magnus and Skywarp.

william-james88 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:But this isn't 'generations' is it? it's platinum, it's not meant to be classics/gen canon. And sorry, but my 'dinobots' are the Darksyde Predacons and that will never change

Actually it is. The first Platinum release and the New Year specials don't belong to any line, but since AoE the Platinum series has been integrated with Generations, including the reissues. You can see the logo in the upper right corner of each box.

And for the record, so are the legions that came out this year like Ultra Magnus and Skywarp.

Not quite: even though the packaging style matches, the logo does not: "Authentic Transformers" instead of "Generations"

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:But this isn't 'generations' is it? it's platinum, it's not meant to be classics/gen canon. And sorry, but my 'dinobots' are the Darksyde Predacons and that will never change

Actually it is. The first Platinum release and the New Year specials don't belong to any line, but since AoE the Platinum series has been integrated with Generations, including the reissues. You can see the logo in the upper right corner of each box.

And for the record, so are the legions that came out this year like Ultra Magnus and Skywarp.

Not quite: even though the packaging style matches, the logo does not: "Authentic Transformers" instead of "Generations"

Nice CATCH! Comment retreated

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:But this isn't 'generations' is it? it's platinum, it's not meant to be classics/gen canon. And sorry, but my 'dinobots' are the Darksyde Predacons and that will never change

Actually it is. The first Platinum release and the New Year specials don't belong to any line, but since AoE the Platinum series has been integrated with Generations, including the reissues. You can see the logo in the upper right corner of each box.

Well, I still figure 'Generations' is a catch all line, AoE is in it, and that's not G1; it's just, as the name implies, trying to revamp figure's from various points in the line; it's just G'whiner's that try to turn it into something that it is not.

Hellscream9999 wrote:Well, I still figure 'Generations' is a catch all line, AoE is in it, and that's not G1; it's just, as the name implies, trying to revamp figure's from various points in the line; it's just G'whiner's that try to turn it into something that it is not.

Generations has been mostly G1-centric, with a slight hiatus during AoE with Series M4 or "Movie 4". Like Masterpiece having Movie and Brave series offshoots, it's still considered a G1-centric line.

Hellscream9999 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:But this isn't 'generations' is it? it's platinum, it's not meant to be classics/gen canon. And sorry, but my 'dinobots' are the Darksyde Predacons and that will never change

Actually it is. The first Platinum release and the New Year specials don't belong to any line, but since AoE the Platinum series has been integrated with Generations, including the reissues. You can see the logo in the upper right corner of each box.

Well, I still figure 'Generations' is a catch all line, AoE is in it, and that's not G1; it's just, as the name implies, trying to revamp figure's from various points in the line; it's just G'whiner's that try to turn it into something that it is not.

Sounds a lot like that 2010 Transformers line which had movie toys, Piranacon, Unicron and Lugnut just to name a few.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:Well, I still figure 'Generations' is a catch all line, AoE is in it, and that's not G1; it's just, as the name implies, trying to revamp figure's from various points in the line; it's just G'whiner's that try to turn it into something that it is not.

Generations has been mostly G1-centric, with a slight hiatus during AoE with Series M4 or "Movie 4". Like Masterpiece having Movie and Brave series offshoots, it's still considered a G1-centric line.

So I guess 'thrilling 30's' was another anomaly? It is cheeky that you an get away with calling bw and bmach G1; but aren't there other gen figures that aren't G1? Like FoC and WfC and such?

New heads look great, but don't fit the AOE molds IMO. Also, supremely disappointed that these aren't G1.

You know what sucks about these platinum sets that no one asked for? They will just rot away in e-tailer's warehouses especially the insecticons which....

ARE NOW SOLD OUT at TFSOURCE?!?!?!?!





What is hilarious about that picture is that the cheaper previous releases is still available. Wow. I guess that is good news, it means Hasbro will find these to be a success after all and can then venture and do more risky reissues that might cost more to develop.

Hellscream9999 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:Well, I still figure 'Generations' is a catch all line, AoE is in it, and that's not G1; it's just, as the name implies, trying to revamp figure's from various points in the line; it's just G'whiner's that try to turn it into something that it is not.

Generations has been mostly G1-centric, with a slight hiatus during AoE with Series M4 or "Movie 4". Like Masterpiece having Movie and Brave series offshoots, it's still considered a G1-centric line.

So I guess 'thrilling 30's' was another anomaly? It is cheeky that you an get away with calling bw and bmach G1; but aren't there other gen figures that aren't G1? Like FoC and WfC and such?

It is, admittedly, a very complex subject since while the Thrilling 30 portion of the Generations line did pay homage to both post-G1 and non-G1 lines, and the WFC and FOC portions were both non-G1 but still heavily G1-inspired, the Generations line has come to tie in much closer to the IDW G1 comics that are like a new kind of G1 that has grown to be so wildly different from what the concept of "G1" was like back in the 1980s by now having integrated several post-G1 and non-G1 characters and concepts into its rich universe and mythology that those characters and concepts become G1 versions of the original post-/non-G1 versions but while still being a far cry from the 1980's vision of G1. It's all become very complicated with all these post-/non-G1 things getting G1 versions of themselves that are still treated as being of a different kind of G1 than that of the original generation of the brand. To the point that many have and do argue that IDW G1 isn't a kind of G1 at all.

Hope I made that clear enough.

@ WJ88

RE: Botcon and Hasbro's legal recourse. The Club can bar 3rd Party from Botcon because it's their show, and exhibitors have to follow their rules. It's as simple as that.

On the larger legal issue... it's not as simple as you make it out. A lot of the companies are Chinese, Japanese, or otherwise East Asian, and IP laws are very different there. Mounting a challenge to the huge diversity of unlicensed 3rd Party companies would take a whole lot of effort, time, and cash Hasbro might not want to spend, all for an uncertain outcome. Think of it this way - you would think it would be much simpler for Takara to squash the supply of KO MPs constructed from factory rejects, and in their best interest to boot. But they can't. I'm sure they would if they could, but it seems out of their hands. If that task is too huge to handle at Takara's own factories, is there really that bright a hope or possibility Hasbro could dismantle the 3rd Party machine? I seriously doubt it.

Sabrblade wrote:


Hope I made that clear enough.

All kidding aside, I completely understood that, basically because I know both G1 and the comics (to an extent). What I find even more confusing is that the toys arent really the comics versions but the earth form of the comics version, which in itself is also original G1 with "post G1" G1 heads. Like Swerve for instance.

Anyways, I just wanted to say that I find these comics similar to say the Ultimate Marvel Universe. Same characters, new contexts. Unless the Aligned Universe (which I am in the camp that it doesnt really exist as an actual all encompassing universe) would be the ultimate universe, and the Post G1 stuff is simply G1 today if it kept going and evolved.

Wait thats not what I wanted to day, getting carried away here. I just wanted to say this:

I find "post g1" G1 ratchet to be a far better character than G1 ratchet. Ironhide didnt change too much though, he's always the same old wise badass.

megatronus wrote:very helpful insight

Thanks man! I see, the Botcon thing is just having a set of rules, not necessarily a legal standpoint. It's like dress codes. There is a difference between it being allowed for me to enter a club with sandals and it being illegal for me to do so.

And yeah, you are totally right about those KO MPs. That would be a much easier place to attack before original molds. Hasbro has sued in the past for TF toys, and won, but it was with stateside companies.

Thanks again!

I feel I should point out that, while the Club did bar the 3rd party stuff from BotCon this year (to the point that the 3rd parties had their own Con in the Hilton across the street), there were still some 3rd party items that made it into the dealer room at some of the booths on Sunday. One booth even had a bunch of 3rd party stuff prominently on display and for sale that it was hard not to notice. I guess since it was the last day of the con folks didn't care anymore by that point.

Sabrblade wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Hellscream9999 wrote:Well, I still figure 'Generations' is a catch all line, AoE is in it, and that's not G1; it's just, as the name implies, trying to revamp figure's from various points in the line; it's just G'whiner's that try to turn it into something that it is not.

Generations has been mostly G1-centric, with a slight hiatus during AoE with Series M4 or "Movie 4". Like Masterpiece having Movie and Brave series offshoots, it's still considered a G1-centric line.

So I guess 'thrilling 30's' was another anomaly? It is cheeky that you an get away with calling bw and bmach G1; but aren't there other gen figures that aren't G1? Like FoC and WfC and such?

It is, admittedly, a very complex subject since while the Thrilling 30 portion of the Generations line did pay homage to both post-G1 and non-G1 lines, and the WFC and FOC portions were both non-G1 but still heavily G1-inspired, the Generations line has come to tie in much closer to the IDW G1 comics that are like a new kind of G1 that has grown to be so wildly different from what the concept of "G1" was like back in the 1980s by now having integrated several post-G1 and non-G1 characters and concepts into its rich universe and mythology that those characters and concepts become G1 versions of the original post-/non-G1 versions but while still being a far cry from the 1980's vision of G1. It's all become very complicated with all these post-/non-G1 things getting G1 versions of themselves that are still treated as being of a different kind of G1 than that of the original generation of the brand. To the point that many have and do argue that IDW G1 isn't a kind of G1 at all.

Hope I made that clear enough.

Oh, it all makes sense, what doesn't is the incessant whining. Hasbro isn't saying these are the be all end all dinobot figures, they are a fun little release; has/tak have plans, now, maybe you want dinobots, but people also wanted combiners, and triple changers, and blaster, and titan class figures. They can only do so much, plus it's BW's 20th anniversary and people want something done for that.

So I guess it all boils down to: Quit ur b!tchin', what will come, will come; and you can't stop it.

Has/tak probably figured that thehy rode the dinobot train pretty hard, better to let that cool off before getting back on it. They may even make nice companion figures, should a 'beast' series roll around with bw figures, and beast combiners, and such.