The Energon Pub

Transformers had another peak in the 2000's, arguably its highest thus far, yet it failed to satisfy a hungry collectors market resulting in the fans creating 3rd party add-ons, then homages and beyond. It does seem that Hasbro has at the very least tolerated this market, however, Hasbro didn't satisfy this demand, not from lack of capital to invest in creating these collector toys but, instead, a simple lack of vision.

Hasbro likely believed that satisfying collectors would not make money, yet they've been shown to be at mistaken by the fact that the demand birthed the 3rd party collector market. It still seems odd that Hasbro has not attempted to capitalize on this healthy niche until the relaunch of the Masterpiece series.

The new masterpiece series is a true high point for collectors in terms of the improvements over the original line, yet it is already starting to show the same tired Hasbro trends. There is an Optimus Prime figure, a Soundwave figure with minions, & already Hasbro has begun to produce the clones from cars and seekers. There has only been a small murmur/rumor of any kind of true Deception leader. Their is likely going to be another Prime or later generation equivalent. Ultra Magnus will likely not have his power armor/trailer & really just be a MP-10 recolor.

The line seems rather tired, already...

Arguably, 3rd party is eating Hasbro's lunch, though, Hasbro doesn't seem to care. Hasbro could have had a piece of the pie by licencing the 3rd party, or offering support through partnership, technical advising and co-op. Hasbro blundered & seems to recognize it, yet isn't motivated enough to really capitalize on demand in a serious or consistent way.

It is good that Hasbro has at least not attacked or attempted cease and desist orders on the 3rd party companies. They haven't tried to get in the way of satisfying the very demand they do not care to satisfy themselves.

Hasbro should at least create co-ops, partnerships, and licensing deals with every 3rd party, letting others within their own company and outside continue Masterpiece and all the homages. Playing well with other companies and diversifying your portfolio is a very sound strategy.

Any thoughts, input about 3rd party, or any insight about companies related to Transformers would be appreciated. Why Hasbro's lack of motivation/vision? Where MP should have been, should be, should go. And finally the future of 3rd party.

Correct me for those who know better but iirc, MP concept started with Takara. Different collector market (lots of fans with a lot of disposable income)unlike the Western oriented one where a lot will bellyache about the price and a lot of ambulance chasers who will sue the pants of Hasbro if someone swallows a missile or two.

MP-01 came out around the end of October or November 2004, so now, we're nearly a decade into the line. Sure, Tomy got a bit lazy what with all the Convoy's released.......guy's just to popular not to take advantage off Same with Soundwave and the Seekers. Already an assured bottom line (releasing Acid storm on Hasbro's part still eludes logic ), why not a lazy repaint of Skywarp and Starcream in the revised mold

As for partnering with 3rd parties, iirc, only Takara used to do that, but only for a limited time (the independent company whose name escapes me was responsible for the 3rd party not Powerglide and not Wheelie). Also, Revoltech by Kaiyodo also has a couple of TF related merchandise.......in Japan. The situation is probably different in the American setting.

Also, iirc, a lot will bellyache if about the price that there might not be any incentive for Hasbro to release high end but gutted (due to safety concerns)collector pieces. Take TF Generations for example, I hear a lot of "the price for the Japanese release doesn't justify it (extra gun and pain application people...........that costs extra fyi)

So Tronus, we all just have to bite the bullet, be patient and wait for Tomy to release our faves.

When I said Hasbro I also meant Takara/Tomy and immediately regretted not writing it as Takara/Hasbro - Tomy/Hasbro. However, besides you telling me, and others like me, to quit my "bellyaching", you explained how I my argument that Hasbro/Tomy failed to capitalize on the opportunity to fill the obvious demand. A demand that was there, was not satiated by Hasbro/Tomy, instead, 3rd parties have fed this market and are doing very well, with a few exceptions. Revoltech, a Tomy/Hasbro partner attempted to satisfy auto fans and not so much the larger niche that I am pointing to. This niche wants more than just cars. This niche is large & healthy, it wants variety such as combiners, (example as Hercules [Not-Devastator]), The Not-Headmasters, until very recently Triple-changers, (though there is no awnser to Hexatron [Not-Sixshot]), and a plethora of others, including steam punk. These figures came from both America and Asia. They aren't just sold to Americans, or even just Japanese fans who also purchase a large percentage of 3rd party toys. There are collectors all over the world.

You have said that it is Takara that is calling the shots and they're partnership with Revoltech failed, but this does not invalidate my argument in any way. Looking at Revoltech's line-up, its a no brainer as to why it failed. It's part of why the original MP line fizzled, because it focused on reusing the same molds. 3rd parties are actually growing whereas Hasbro is not doing as well, (so-far at least, the Holiday '13 still isn't quit here). Also from what you stated, Takara/Tomy makes all the toy decisions, this is a huge myth I see repeated but does not reflct any of the articles I read from the end of animated, through all of Prime. The articles have said that Takara/Tomy does partners in the designs with Hasbro, but Hasbro controls the direction of toys lines as well as the aesthetic. If you desire, I can locate at least one or two article stating this as a reference as I'm sure you will ask for it.

Hasbro has as much to do with what is created as Takara/Tomy. I did actually mean both companies in my statements. 3rd parties would not be doing well if Hasbro/Tomy hadn't met this demand. You can clearly see it by the line-up offered by official and 3rd party. Hasbro/Tomy failed. If you can address the market demand issue as well as 3rd party success then do so, please, it is encouraged. But please, don't be so simple as to say stop my bellyaching as 3rd party has filled my hungry belly and made it hungry for more yummy toys.

Third party may be first to the scene in regards to some characters but there's no denying the fact that once Hasbro releases something, the third party figure becomes obsolete, regardless if that is in Masterpiece scale or just Classics (Gen FoC Springer > Defender, etc). I wouldn't say that the new MP line is failing either. They've dished out quite alot in the past year and not one figure has been a failure (New OP, New SS, Soundwave, Lamborghini mold and Datsun mold are all S-tier), in contrast to what would be weaker figures in the early MP line. In no way am I a stoic defender of official product, I just fret against criticism on one of the few good things HasTak is pushing out, and this is the MP line. I know there is alot that HasTak could and should improve in regards to more G1-centric toys, but alas I doubt we'll see much of any of that with the second wave of movie trilogy heading our way.

fenrir72 wrote:Also, iirc, a lot will bellyache if about the price that there might not be any incentive for Hasbro to release high end but gutted (due to safety concerns)collector pieces. Take TF Generations for example, I hear a lot of "the price for the Japanese release doesn't justify it (extra gun and pain application people...........that costs extra fyi)

You know, we as fans can buy MP-05 Megs and gladly bite the proverbial bullet, (get-it? get-it?), however there are at least 6 other Decepticon leaders Hasbro could have ordered and despite the myth, Takara would have said, "yes", because this is how it Hasbro's relationship is since at least Animated and Prime. This is what the articles I have been reading have reflected at least, who knows how much spin was in them. Anyway, the leaders were: Bludgeon, Thunderwing, Scorponok, Shockwave, Ratbat (I'm joking, LOL, there are actually only 5 alt.s), and Galvatron who is still Megatron. People have stated that Galvatron does not sell, however, his G1 recolor/reissue was no shelf-warmer, it actually did sell quit well. Hasbro did not feel there was a market, neither did their partner, Tomy. They failed to feed a market that did exist, that could have given more capital and profit. I'm not angry or complaining, for as I said, 3rd party is feeding my niche well. I'm just making a point that Hasbro/Tomy screwed up and it cost them potential money.

Part of the problem may be the thought that toys only go to casual fans and auto fans. The niche wants everything though. From military to Tomas The Tank Engine Combiners

Blurrz wrote:Third party may be first to the scene in regards to some characters but there's no denying the fact that once Hasbro releases something, the third party figure becomes obsolete, regardless if that is in Masterpiece scale or just Classics (Gen FoC Springer > Defender, etc). I wouldn't say that the new MP line is failing either. They've dished out quite alot in the past year and not one figure has been a failure (New OP, New SS, Soundwave, Lamborghini mold and Datsun mold are all S-tier), in contrast to what would be weaker figures in the early MP line. In no way am I a stoic defender of official product, I just fret against criticism on one of the few good things HasTak is pushing out, and this is the MP line. I know there is alot that HasTak could and should improve in regards to more G1-centric toys, but alas I doubt we'll see much of any of that with the second wave of movie trilogy heading our way.

I hear ya, it's just a red flag that Hasbro is already recycling molds, and not even getting to what 3rd party has, as you clearly stated, beaten Hasbro to producing stuff we want. Hasbro never had more than, what, 6 molds for the original MP series. Optimus, Megs, the Jets, The Cars, the dinosaurs Grim, and Soundwave (& if I remember right Blaster was released as a retool/remold of Soundwave, correct me if I'm wrong). They didn't even finish the entire 1984 line-up, nor anything from 1985, (unless you consider Grimlock to be '85 instead of '84). No year three, four or five. No combiners. Instead they focused their attention on very misguided MP toys and more.

Forgive me for being cynical, but how much of a percentage of the TF customer base do you think collectors make up? Because I'm betting that unless you have more solid numbers than I do (admittedly a few years out of date, I'm hoping to get an updated number at Botcon) we're going to have a disagreement. If you have newer numbers then I will willingly retract most of what is to come.

Tronus_Rex wrote:Transformers had another peak in the 2000's, arguably its highest thus far, yet it failed to satisfy a hungry collectors market resulting in the fans creating 3rd party add-ons, then homages and beyond. It does seem that Hasbro has at the very least tolerated this market, however, Hasbro didn't satisfy this demand, not from lack of capital to invest in creating these collector toys but, instead, a simple lack of vision.

You say lack of vision, I say catering to numbers. The end of fiscal year for 2007/2008 year showed a quadrupling of sales over any year in the last decade, thanks to Michael Bay. What does Hasbro do with that money? They would of course put it towards their demographic, which is children. at Botcon 2010 (maybe 2009) Aaron Archer went on record saying that even then, the collectors were only about 10% of the sales. It's business suicide to focus 50% of your effort into getting 10% of the sales.

Hasbro likely believed that satisfying collectors would not make money, yet they've been shown to be at mistaken by the fact that the demand birthed the 3rd party collector market. It still seems odd that Hasbro has not attempted to capitalize on this healthy niche until the relaunch of the Masterpiece series.

The 3rd Party business model isn't feasible to Hasbro. You seem to believe that by mass producing figures like Fansproject's Stunticons and widely distribute them on the same scale as Hasbro's Transformers line would be a gold mine for Hasbro. It wouldn't because there's not enough adult collectors who would buy this stuff to make all the additional design, engineering, manufacturing, and assembling profitable. 3rd Parties are profitable because they produce relatively few numbers thus have to charge high to make a profit off of the limited fanbase, which is mature collectors with money. FP's Stunticons are selling pretty well under the current conditions, but I can guarentee you they would shelfwarm anywhere else due to lack of interest. I'd rather not even begin to go into the whole toy law which might also be a hindrance to toy companies.

The new masterpiece series is a true high point for collectors in terms of the improvements over the original line, yet it is already starting to show the same tired Hasbro trends. There is an Optimus Prime figure, a Soundwave figure with minions, & already Hasbro has begun to produce the clones from cars and seekers. There has only been a small murmur/rumor of any kind of true Deception leader. Their is likely going to be another Prime or later generation equivalent. Ultra Magnus will likely not have his power armor/trailer & really just be a MP-10 recolor.

Masterpiece design, engineering, production, assembly and QA is, I would think, horrifically expensive. Of course it makes sense to use an existing mold as often as possible to make as much money as you can to build the next mold that will do the same thing. It's good business sense.

The line seems rather tired, already...

No it's not. You're just impatient.

Arguably, 3rd party is eating Hasbro's lunch, though, Hasbro doesn't seem to care. Hasbro could have had a piece of the pie by licencing the 3rd party, or offering support through partnership, technical advising and co-op. Hasbro blundered & seems to recognize it, yet isn't motivated enough to really capitalize on demand in a serious or consistent way.

The only demand is a small group of vocal adults waving money around yelling "Give me back my childhood." To be honest, Hasbro in the last 4 or 5 years have done a lot for us. We have an ongoing Generations line, with other good toys thrown in other lines once in a while. Hell, we even got a freaking METROPLEX! It seems that, whatever our ratio in the overall sales is, it must be damn decent enough to give us that.

As for consulting with 3rd party designers; why should they? Third parties aren't better. They just have looser operating restrictions like budgets, deadlines, or the ability to overlook certain toy safety laws.

It is good that Hasbro has at least not attacked or attempted cease and desist orders on the 3rd party companies. They haven't tried to get in the way of satisfying the very demand they do not care to satisfy themselves.

Most demand is in your head.

Hasbro should at least create co-ops, partnerships, and licensing deals with every 3rd party, letting others within their own company and outside continue Masterpiece and all the homages. Playing well with other companies and diversifying your portfolio is a very sound strategy.

No they shouldn't. It's a stupid business practice. These 3rd party groups are not companies, they're groups of people. There's no FansProject office, there's no TFC board meetings. They're also tiny as heck, I'm betting most aren't more than 10 people.

Any thoughts, input about 3rd party, or any insight about companies related to Transformers would be appreciated. Why Hasbro's lack of motivation/vision? Where MP should have been, should be, should go. And finally the future of 3rd party.

I'm sorry , but most of your argument seems to stem from impatience, tunnel vision and a lack of business-minded thinking.

Hasbro's attention to the collector's market is the highest it has ever been. We have a METROPLEX, a Generations line that looks like it'll continue alongside the movie line, a TF Collector's Club, comic books where the characters actually appear in plastic form! The Masterpiece line from TomyTakara is kicking off, and if it continues the way I've heard it will, you're in for one heck of a ride. And yet that's not enough for you it seems.

Tronus_Rex wrote:When I said Hasbro I also meant Takara/Tomy and immediately regretted not writing it as Takara/Hasbro - Tomy/Hasbro.

Personally, I use the term HasTak. It's much easier to typs and covers most bases.

However, besides you telling me, and others like me, to quit my "bellyaching", you explained how I my argument that Hasbro/Tomy failed to capitalize on the opportunity to fill the obvious demand. A demand that was there, was not satiated by Hasbro/Tomy, instead, 3rd parties have fed this market and are doing very well, with a few exceptions.

A group of loud people doesn't equal market demand. I'm curious how you define "very well." I suppose that we're seeing continuing products from these groups indicate that they're doing "very well?"

Revoltech, a Tomy/Hasbro partner attempted to satisfy auto fans and not so much the larger niche that I am pointing to. This niche wants more than just cars. This niche is large & healthy, it wants variety such as combiners, (example as Hercules [Not-Devastator]), The Not-Headmasters, until very recently Triple-changers, (though there is no awnser to Hexatron [Not-Sixshot]), and a plethora of others, including steam punk. These figures came from both America and Asia. They aren't just sold to Americans, or even just Japanese fans who also purchase a large percentage of 3rd party toys. There are collectors all over the world.

The "niche" isn't as large or as healthy as you seem to think it is. The third party craze is a baloon, similar to the dotcom growth and burst in the early millenium. There will come a time when we as collectors realize we should be doing better things with our money such as family, housing or saving for retirement and that balloon will burst because the next generation of wealthy young adults won't have an emotional connection to G1 as we do now. In Hasbro's case, there will always be children for as long as adults continue to have sex.

You have said that it is Takara that is calling the shots and they're partnership with Revoltech failed, but this does not invalidate my argument in any way. Looking at Revoltech's line-up, its a no brainer as to why it failed. It's part of why the original MP line fizzled, because it focused on reusing the same molds.

I cannot comment on Revoltech, as I don't care for non-transforming figures, however your claim of mold recycling is absolutely false. Would you prefer they ground-up design different molds for Bluestreak, Prowl and Smokescreen? If so, would you be keen on paying an extra $45 bucks more for each? (yes I'm pulling that number out of my ass, but they gotta recoup the extra costs somehow.)

3rd parties are actually growing whereas Hasbro is not doing as well, (so-far at least, the Holiday '13 still isn't quit here).

BS. 3rd parties are becoming more numerous, the release times between each party's release is more or less unchanged. For a 3rd party to grow, they would need significant capital to get their own manufacturing facility. They don't seem to be doing that though. Hasbro on the other hand has had two pretty successful cartoon-based toylines and subsequent related-toylines in addition to their Generations line, Botshots and Kre-O lines all WITHOUT a movie to support them.

Also from what you stated, Takara/Tomy makes all the toy decisions, this is a huge myth I see repeated but does not reflct any of the articles I read from the end of animated, through all of Prime. The articles have said that Takara/Tomy does partners in the designs with Hasbro, but Hasbro controls the direction of toys lines as well as the aesthetic. If you desire, I can locate at least one or two article stating this as a reference as I'm sure you will ask for it.

That's my understanding of it as well, with the excpetion of the Masterpiece line. I believe Takara's taking that on and Hasbro's bringing what it likes over to the states afterwards.

Hasbro has as much to do with what is created as Takara/Tomy. I did actually mean both companies in my statements. 3rd parties would not be doing well if Hasbro/Tomy hadn't met this demand. You can clearly see it by the line-up offered by official and 3rd party. Hasbro/Tomy failed. If you can address the market demand issue as well as 3rd party success then do so, please, it is encouraged. But please, don't be so simple as to say stop my bellyaching as 3rd party has filled my hungry belly and made it hungry for more yummy toys.

Agreed. Everyone has the right to stand up on a soapbox and make grandiose claims. However they should be prepared for the oncoming storm of counter-arguments. Some are dismissive, whereas others (hopefully mine) would me more enlightening.

Does anyone know just how profitable 3rd party companies are?

Obviously they're not going to be on the level of Hasbro and TT ... but it would be interesting to learn how much they make and whether they're gouging or their prices are justified.

Burn wrote:Does anyone know just how profitable 3rd party companies are?

Obviously they're not going to be on the level of Hasbro and TT ... but it would be interesting to learn how much they make and whether they're gouging or their prices are justified.

I'm leaning more to the lesser-profit side, but I cannot back that up with any hard data.

[/quote]Agreed. Everyone has the right to stand up on a soapbox and make grandiose claims. However they should be prepared for the oncoming storm of counter-arguments. Some are dismissive, whereas others (hopefully mine) would me more enlightening.[/quote]

Finally, someone with a...You and I are going to have a lot of fun No sarcasm implied as your the first person to actually make me prepare for my counter arguments. I enjoy a good debate, even with jabs and witty, albeit, bad puns. I LOVE to debate & make reasoned arguments and counter argument, ETC. Besides being a producer, and enjoying my frivolous other fun activities this is my form of mental...exorcise, (I hope you caught my joke). Most do not understand that there are actual specific rules & guidelines for effective and valid debate, they are not interested in engaging but instead just attacking or "trolling". I slay trolls.

I didn't mean to go down that rabbit hole, I'm just overjoyed to find someone who isn't just repeating their recycled, soapbox, preaching. You seem like the type who is perfect for me to engage with in conversation.

I'm very "encyclopedic", (as one young man put it), systematic, analytically, ETC, I can see you're likely at least similar. I'm coming to this argument not from my usually solid foundation based on practice and study. Yet, I'm not ignorant, I have kept up as a fan since a young man in the 80's. I've done so through articles and occasional online interviews. My statements about the potential for Has/Tak to have profited is based reports of 3rd party success with online sales and more. The fact the Hasbro is focusing on a very retro/G1 approach given their own implied failure of Prime should not be mistaken as mere coincidence. (There are no such thing as coincidences). Also I have read more than a few informed articles pointing to how 3rd party is really coming in to its own in 2013. I promise to reference them and refresh these articles and reply with a worthy argument. Hopefully we can enlighten each other and have a bit of fun ^^

Tronus_Rex wrote:The fact the Hasbro is focusing on a very retro/G1 approach given their own implied failure of Prime should not be mistaken as mere coincidence.

"Implied failure?" How so? If you're going to make statements like this, please be "encyclopaedic" and flesh them out.

If you'd like to debate with me, know that I'm going to go through every statement and look for personal bias. Your posts weep anti-HasTak bias to the point where I don't think you can be objective.

I don't defend HasTak, I don't defend 3rd Parties, heck I don't defend TFCC anymore for their business practices. What I do, is analyze their practices based on what we are seeing. I don't make implications and guesses where I cannot back them up with a pretty logical train of thought.

If you feel like continuing this discussion, I'll be pretty much chained to my computer all weekend and it's looking like a pretty light workload.

The new MP line recycles the same guys as the old one?

This is the second MP Soundwave, and the first had a Blaster repaint?

If you're so encyclopedic, pray tell me more about that original MP Soundwave and its Blaster repaint. I don't seem to remember that one.


You should also know that Takara is handling the Mp line, and they've stated that from MP 10 onward the line has been rebooted and will first cover all the guys originally released (as toys) in 84, then they'll move on to 85. Of course characters that are just repaints of 84 molds will get released earlier. Like Ultra Magnus, who'll come out next year, with trailer/ armor.

I completely disagree with the main point of this thread. In fact, I see the opposite. Third party has missed the boat with the Masterpiece line. For about 7 years Takara dragged their asses with the MP line, just giving us a taste of what we could have. There was a large gap of time between releases, and a lot of repaints. There was plenty of opportunity for third party companies to fill in the gaps. The only one that I remember doing anything was igear, with their coneheads, resized Optimus, Ironhide and Ratchet, and Mini Warriors.

But now, the Masterpiece line has completely change, we have received more new molds in the last 2 years than we did in the first 7. Everybody is taking notice and jumping onboard, including third party companies. It does seem that Takara is going try to release all of the original cast, so it's not really a matter of "if", more like "when". Third party is catering to those of us that are impatient. Will this cost Takara business? Maybe a little, but a lot of people that buy third party stuff will also buy the official release.

Mkall wrote:

Burn wrote:Does anyone know just how profitable 3rd party companies are?

Obviously they're not going to be on the level of Hasbro and TT ... but it would be interesting to learn how much they make and whether they're gouging or their prices are justified.

I'm leaning more to the lesser-profit side, but I cannot back that up with any hard data.

The only thing I know is that, early on, when that 3rd party trailer with invisibility cloaking came out they almost made a loss.

Mkall wrote:

Burn wrote:Does anyone know just how profitable 3rd party companies are?

Obviously they're not going to be on the level of Hasbro and TT ... but it would be interesting to learn how much they make and whether they're gouging or their prices are justified.

I'm leaning more to the lesser-profit side, but I cannot back that up with any hard data.

The only thing I know is that, early on, when that 3rd party trailer with invisibility cloaking came out they almost made a loss.

My favorite threads are when collectors tell Hasbro they don't know what they're doing.

I disagree with the premise of this thread. Takara's MP line has actually made me step away from a ton of 3rd party stuff, and I know several other collectors doing the same. I think Takara's focus on Masterpiece, since they're certainly ADD on most everything else lately, is exactly what they need to do to combat 3P stuff.

Mykltron wrote:

Mkall wrote:

Burn wrote:Does anyone know just how profitable 3rd party companies are?

Obviously they're not going to be on the level of Hasbro and TT ... but it would be interesting to learn how much they make and whether they're gouging or their prices are justified.

I'm leaning more to the lesser-profit side, but I cannot back that up with any hard data.

The only thing I know is that, early on, when that 3rd party trailer with invisibility cloaking came out they almost made a loss.

You can thank BTS Toys for that and their competing Optimus Prime Trailer.

"Implied failure?" How so? If you're going to make statements like this, please be "encyclopaedic" and flesh them out.

If you'd like to debate with me, know that I'm going to go through every statement and look for personal bias. Your posts weep anti-HasTak bias to the point where I don't think you can be objective.[/quote]

You didn't pay any attention to the Hasbro Q1 fiscal report for 2013, did you? If you did then you wouldn't be arguing on this point about Prime's failure in the eyes of Hasbro. From now on, every argument I make will be backed with references because I made the mistake of presuming you were informed by your counter arguments.

The fiscal report from back in the start of the year said that sales for TF Prime Toys were flat, flat sales are bad. Sales were already shrinking according to multiple reports, such as from Toy Fair in 2012. Hasbro had canceled the TF.P 1st Edition Line in 2012, as well as another line From DotM which had just been announced a few months before in 2012. Prime's ratings were down, so were the sales. Holiday for Hasbro in 2012 were also "not as expected" according to the Q1 report from 2012. Now you need to get past the PR spin for Hasbro's investors, "not meeting expectations" (12), "sales were flat" (13). Prime was then cancelled and fans were given a half season of 12 episodes instead of 24-26. The focus of the last line of TF.P toys shifted to the Beast Hunters/Predacon emphasis in the fall - a radical shift in direction from what had been done before. Also to come out of Convention in 13, such as in New York, at BotCon, ComicCon's (plural), as well as other conventions in the spring were clear, documented, and recorded statements by journalists of Hasbro Rep.'s. of Hasbro's shift in focus from Prime to Generations toys, (and don't miss this), from previous plans for TF.P. The new direction was the 30th Anniversary with energies being shifted to the Generations line and away from any further away from the Prime line.

Look at Generations and the 30th, you cannot say to anyone with a straight face that that this line is very G1-centric, far more so than TF.P., which itself was shift away from the Animated line & TV show another G1 based show.

Masterpiece was dead until roughly 2012, when sales figures had already been on a decline.

3rd party is indeed growing in 2013, you can find some news articles online referencing this. However, do not look at BotCon for any info on 3rd party, well, anything, because in 2013 Hasbro is banning 3rd party news, & companies at any future Botcon events.

One of my links referencing this Hasbro, BotCon, & 3rd party info by Kotaku, but it was pulled with out explanation. You can only find a dead link now. Instead, I'm providing a link which is from a TF based site, http://tfarchive.com/fandom/features/th ... ransformer.

In the provided article it states that 2013 will likely be a climax for 3rd party given the market conditions. Hasbro is also now responding to 3rd party more proactively.

I have tried to look at online toy stores for hard figures, but information such as sales figures are generally not released. I will point again to the documented claims made by Hasbro since 2012 on disappointing sales, flat sales, shrinking sales, ETC. I will repeat an observation made by more than one market analysts, gauging 3rd party share, by pointing out online toy stores selection and variety of 3rd party toys, (in general), has measurably increased (Yahoo, Forbes, CNBC), frequently given as an example in these discussion is toys such as TF knock-offs. Now remember Hasbro giving attention to more G1 based toys, Generations, Masterpiece, and the radical shift in plans for Prime including it;s cancellation.

The issue of 3rd party is now being discussed on websites in regard to intellectual property, & how TF knock-offs are a unusual case. These websites actually attack 3rd party, stating it is blatant theft, & also how it thrives because it is a healthy niche market, and almost an underground industry.

If 3rd party was doing well than you would not see more toys being offered, you would see the opposite. It would not be an issue for Has/Tak as it is becoming in 2013. It would die by itself.

Also, whatever went on in 2007, and since does not matter, nor is accurate, as niche markets are now how businesses have found success. Example, Friendship is Magic, the Dark Souls video games series, Toll Brothers, Brooks Running Shoes, this list is beyond measure and growing. Another Niche success is Fans Project which you can see and the company boasts about on Facebook and more. For you to give the now defunct and tired argument of appealing to a broader, more wide spread, and as other mentioned, casual market, such a little kids, makes more sense, is being proven wrong more day by day.

...Okay, you say that I'm a biased "fan" attacking Hasbro, here I must stop you right there, and say I love Hasbro and Tomy, however, I'm not coming at this as you seem to mistakenly imply an angry "fan-boy". A little about myself. I actually am a producer, with a degree in marketing, another in business admin., and another in web based tech. I'm a no-shit holder of a Masters, a Bachelors, and an Associates, and I'm slowly working on a full blown Doctorate. This requires me to work on research papers, and even spend time teaching at a University. The arguments I've made have nothing to do with being a little whiny fan boy. Also, I'm not waving some pieces of academic paper and saying; "you can't argue with me 'cause I have a degree," as this is no defense, I'm simply saying you're completely miss-interpreting who I am and where my arguments are coming from. I'm making an argument based on facts, observations, and drawing perfectly logical conclusions from the facts.

I will also state that even if I'm right about 3rd party in 2013, conditions may change, and 3rd party may day. I may be wrong even with the facts I've only begun to give. I admit that.

I also did say that I'm not unhappy with Hasbro and Tomy. I like 3rd party, I meant it when I said they gave me my nostalgic fix. I also loved Transformers Prime, and I'm really bothered that Hasbro regards it as a failure. TF.P was good because it was growth for TF. The return and emphasis in G1 is arguably a bad direction. Hasbro needs to look to the future, not the past to Beast Anything or G1. Please, no one start saying how TF.P was not a failure, that it was due to the series being between the movies or the bad economy. At least, don't make the argument with me, make it to Hasbro, they clearly see the series as, at the very least, a disappointment. If I had my way, TF.P would continue.

If anyone references Hasbro's BS excuse that TF.P was cancelled because CG is more expensive, I'm a producer, traditional animation costs more. It was BS to anyone who knows anything about animation and I am not the first to have said this.

ScottyP wrote:I disagree with the premise of this thread. Takara's MP line has actually made me step away from a ton of 3rd party stuff, and I know several other collectors doing the same. I think Takara's focus on Masterpiece, since they're certainly ADD on most everything else lately, is exactly what they need to do to combat 3P stuff.

^This right here. It's the reason I skipped Quakewave and the reason I'm skipping Fanstoys other "MP" efforts along with those of Xtransbots and whatever other third parties are trying to do "MP".

I see no point in spending the money now on what will surely prove to be an inferior (in my opinion) product because it's less show accurate than what Takara's going to build. They (Takara) have nailed it every time so far since MP-10 (though they arguably could've done a new mold for the Seekers which would have been better than what we got, but it's still pretty damn good) and they seem to be keeping up with the releases.

Not only that, but the MP's keep selling out constantly. Online at least. Takara continues to have to do second runs of nearly every figure to keep up with the demand. So if there is a boat, Takara didn't miss it, they're the ones doing the driving.

I think most of the third party stuff has been and continues to be geared towards the "Classics" collectors. Most of the designs aren't spot on G1 (usually because they can't be due to IP laws or simply because they want the toys to fit in with existing CHUG collections or they just aren't good enough to make designs that match the character/animation models while still actually transforming).

Is there more that Has/Tak could do to cater to the G1 fans? Of course there is, but in my opinion they're doing plenty right now and it's one of the best times ever to be a G1 fan collecting toys, especially if you've gotten your hands on any of the recent MPs. They're pretty damn perfect.

I collect a lot of TFs, third party stuff included, but I don't have any organization to most of it. For example, I don't associate my Hercules with "Classics" or anything like that. The shelf I have Henkei Optimus Prime and United Megatron also has Music Label Soundwave and Toyworld's Hegemon. But then it also has some figures from Animated. To me these are just figures with no real association to one another. Just cool one-offs standing on my shelf. The only ones I really have separated in my collection in a way that to me has any real association and meaning are my Beast Wars shelves which contain the cast from all 3 seasons, my Beast Machines shelf, my MP shelf and my WfC/FoC shelf (which includes the 3rd party Omega Supreme from the WfC game).

Everything else is pretty much just a mish-mash of stuff put up wherever I have space. I mix in TF Prime with Generations and Movie toys because to me they're just more toys, not part of some continuity or anything that has any real meaning to me. The only continuities which have any real draw or meaning for me right now are Beast Wars, G1 (MP) and the WfC/FoC video games. I liked TF:Prime OK, but I was into the toys way more than I was the show, so to me they're just more cool figures/toys on my shelves and the same goes for all the 3rd party stuff I own with the one exception I mentioned earlier (and I'll soon be adding that 3rd party FoC Swoop to that shelf as well ).

It Is Him wrote:My favorite threads are when collectors tell Hasbro they don't know what they're doing.

My least-favorite kind of "fanboy" trolling is dismissing any legitimate criticism of big companies, with the usual tired argument of, "big companies always know what they are doing because they're too big to make mistakes." I know your gonna claim you didn't literally say that, but you implied it heavily.

Big companies F'up all the time, because they often don't know what they are doing, due to blind arrogance that you're echoing. They can make colossal mistakes or mishandle things there product and market badly enough to bankrupt themselves. It happens every year and always will.

In the past, apologists dismissed critics of Disney/Pixar, which is now, again, in trouble and hemorrhaging money. Ignorant journalists even dismissed critics of Nintendo (alienated a loyal market), Microsoft (lowest sales in years), Apple (China - "EPIC FAIL"). In the 90's & 2000's blind pendants defended the US auto industry...

Case studies and papers are published by leaders in the business world reflecting on such F'up's. Oh, by the way, I know of two studies that just use Hasbro as an example of corporate stupidity, and there is even another that is dedicated to Hasbro as a company overall.

Dead Metal wrote:The new MP line recycles the same guys as the old one?

This is the second MP Soundwave, and the first had a Blaster repaint?

If you're so encyclopedic, pray tell me more about that original MP Soundwave and its Blaster repaint. I don't seem to remember that one...

My apologies for not checking my facts in regard to a Blaster repaint/retool. I had heard in a review of Masterpiece Rodimus / Hot Rod, as part of a criticism of the products quality issues. The reviewer mentioned a rumor at the time of Masterpiece Soundwave being used as the basis for a retool and repaint for Blaster. The reviewer said is as a criticism. Apparently that rumor was wrong or Tak/Has changed there minds.

Otherwise, what I said isn't wrong, Hasbro is now remaking something already remade before, without making anything new, & repeating trends done to save money.

G1 has had multiple re-issues, as well as MP, 3rd party, and now MP version 2, with the same figures...it's a valid criticism. Toy reviewers on YouTube and online magazines have already said as much.

Tronus_Rex wrote:G1 has had multiple re-issues, as well as MP, 3rd party, and now MP version 2, with the same figures...it's a valid criticism.

Aside from Optimus, what "same figures" are in MP 2.0?

It appears that there misconception regarding what I am trying to argue. I am in no way implying that the third party is as large as Hasbro. The third party products are aimed at collectors which is small compared to just the standard TF toy market, but still a respectable enough niche, or, a sizable market.

In the economy of the 21st century, market success does not depend uponreaching hundreds of millions or more. Creating a niche in the market, then feeding said niche, and helping it grow, this approach is key to success in business in the 21st century. by attempting to appeal to wider markets products can get water down andthen affect market share. Hasbro has one very little niche market in My Little Pony FiM, that is reference by market analyst, but more because of Hasbro's missteps with this particular niche.

If Hasbro were for example, to just bring in a billion dollars a year and 3rd party only made 10 million a year, (which might not be that far off) & 3rd party profit was only around 7.5% (admittedly optimisti) thats still 750k in profit versus cost. Right now, that would be considered a success. Even with a 1\1000 market share, when you could argue that just 2 years ago it was 1/10,000th, that is still growth. if conditions remain as they are, or improve, the niche will grow even larger.

my ultimate point is that Hasbro hasnot focused enough upon the long term Plan. Todays pipsqueek can become the hungry Lion coming to take your pride.