The Energon Pub

Until they get too big for their britches and Hasbro sends a legion of hungry lawyers to gnaw them to the bone.

You didn't pay any attention to the Hasbro Q1 fiscal report for 2013, did you? If you did then you wouldn't be arguing on this point about Prime's failure in the eyes of Hasbro. From now on, every argument I make will be backed with references because I made the mistake of presuming you were informed by your counter arguments.

That all depends I suppose. I'm getting my info here. Is that where you're getting yours?

The fiscal report from back in the start of the year said that sales for TF Prime Toys were flat, flat sales are bad.

Not in Q1 they aren't. It's typically expected in the toy industry to take a hit when compared to the sales figures in Q4 the year before. Heck, even when compared to 2012 Q1 Hasbro's revenues went up; granted it was more likely due to their Avengers-related products than Transformers. I'm actually unable to find any specific sales data for Transformers vs other brands in these reports, so I'm curious how you're coming to this conclusion.

It should be noted that in their Q3 report, Transformers is a Brand listed as growing.

*Note that I made this response before I read your credentials. I'm leaving it in because to be honest it's how I've interpreted these financial statements in the past.

Sales were already shrinking according to multiple reports, such as from Toy Fair in 2012. Hasbro had canceled the TF.P 1st Edition Line in 2012, as well as another line From DotM which had just been announced a few months before in 2012. Prime's ratings were down, so were the sales. Holiday for Hasbro in 2012 were also "not as expected" according to the Q1 report from 2012. Now you need to get past the PR spin for Hasbro's investors, "not meeting expectations" (12), "sales were flat" (13). Prime was then cancelled and fans were given a half season of 12 episodes instead of 24-26. The focus of the last line of TF.P toys shifted to the Beast Hunters/Predacon emphasis in the fall - a radical shift in direction from what had been done before. Also to come out of Convention in 13, such as in New York, at BotCon, ComicCon's (plural), as well as other conventions in the spring were clear, documented, and recorded statements by journalists of Hasbro Rep.'s. of Hasbro's shift in focus from Prime to Generations toys, (and don't miss this), from previous plans for TF.P. The new direction was the 30th Anniversary with energies being shifted to the Generations line and away from any further away from the Prime line.

That's pretty much what happened, but from what I've seen it's far from the term you used, which is a "failure." If the line was a failure, then we would've seen what happened with Animated where figures were announced and never delivered. From what I've seen, every TF: Prime figure that was announced has seen release. Heck, there's those simplified figures coming in 2014. They look like utter crap, but Hasbro seems to have enough confidence that they'll sell.

But this is all off topic, and can be discussed again whenever the Hasbro Q4 financial statement is released.

Look at Generations and the 30th, you cannot say to anyone with a straight face that that this line is very G1-centric, far more so than TF.P., which itself was shift away from the Animated line & TV show another G1 based show.

Pretty much all we've seen so far is aimed at the adult collectors and Pretty much G1 related in some way. I have issues with how HasTak is doing it, but that's neither here nor there.

Masterpiece was dead until roughly 2012, when sales figures had already been on a decline.

MP-10 came to life in early 2012, following a rather mediocre release of Rodimus Prime. It was then I decided I had no patience for MPs and sold what couple I had.

3rd party is indeed growing in 2013, you can find some news articles online referencing this. However, do not look at BotCon for any info on 3rd party, well, anything, because in 2013 Hasbro is banning 3rd party news, & companies at any future Botcon events.

Aye. I think that Botcon tried stifling 3rd parties in 2012 only to moderate success. They can do what they want, but fans will find a way to get around it. I do like the TFCon presentations though.
I'm not arguing that the 3rd party offerings isn't growing, I'm arguing that each individual group's ability to produce figures isn't growing. One only has to take a look at my Pile of Loots in BBTS over the last couple of years to see that. 2010 I had purchased 12 figures, in 2011 I got 21. 2012 saw 31 3rd party figures leave BBTS and enter my home. Thus far in 2013 I have 14, and I know of several that I passed on. Note that this does not include upgrade kits, those were 10, 13, 6, 6 respectively. That doesn't include figures I got from non-BBTS sources such as convention exclusives or figures who bear too much of a resemblance for BBTS to carry.

My point is that despite there being more 3rd party groups out there (they're not companies unless they pay taxes, and I'm betting most of them don't) each group isn't growing significantly. If they were growing we'd see more from them in terms of reliability, communication and production, and we're not. Sure we get lucky sometimes and see what seems to be a short turnaround between product releases, but then again it's taken us at least 2 years to get Motormaster from when they first showed us a teaser of Menasor.

To be fair, FansProject is probably the closest of any of these groups to be called a company. They have two lines underway and are at least making progress on both in a semblance of simultaneity.

One of my links referencing this Hasbro, BotCon, & 3rd party info by Kotaku, but it was pulled with out explanation. You can only find a dead link now. Instead, I'm providing a link which is from a TF based site, http://tfarchive.com/fandom/features/th ... ransformer.

Most likely a C&D by Hasbro or FunPub. Shame really, I would've enjoyed reading it.

In the provided article it states that 2013 will likely be a climax for 3rd party given the market conditions. Hasbro is also now responding to 3rd party more proactively.

Personally I see the climax in 2015 when most of the big combiners are finished by whichever groups and collectors can start cherry-picking whichever single figures appeal to their tastes. I agree that Hasbro is taking steps to increase it's popularity with collectors, but there will be a coule areas where they will be deficient. Combiners by HasTak need to meet certain playability standards that 3rd parties don't need to adhere to, and I highly doubt we'll see actual headmasters coming from HasTak anytime soon unless it's a G1 reissue. The simple reason is; once you lose the head (those things are tiny!), the figure's playability falls harder than a Fort Max drop test.

I have tried to look at online toy stores for hard figures, but information such as sales figures are generally not released. I will point again to the documented claims made by Hasbro since 2012 on disappointing sales, flat sales, shrinking sales, ETC. I will repeat an observation made by more than one market analysts, gauging 3rd party share, by pointing out online toy stores selection and variety of 3rd party toys, (in general), has measurably increased (Yahoo, Forbes, CNBC), frequently given as an example in these discussion is toys such as TF knock-offs. Now remember Hasbro giving attention to more G1 based toys, Generations, Masterpiece, and the radical shift in plans for Prime including it;s cancellation.

Mostly agreed: growth in the field, but not in the players. Although I wonder if the execs in charge of cancelling Prime are the same execs that cancelled the Prime line. I would think that The Hub Execs would've cancelled Prime before the toy execs did and the toy execs had to adapt. I'm not sure how that all works.

The issue of 3rd party is now being discussed on websites in regard to intellectual property, & how TF knock-offs are a unusual case. These websites actually attack 3rd party, stating it is blatant theft, & also how it thrives because it is a healthy niche market, and almost an underground industry.

That depends on which site. This one doesn't news anything about 3rd parties anymore and keeps the 3rd party boards in an unadvertised sub-forum. TFW promotes the big ticket items, and TFormers will post whatever the owner thinks will get him pageviews and profit. Every member here has views on the legitness of the 3rd party movement and they vary drastically.

If 3rd party was not doing well than you would not see more toys being offered, you would see the opposite. It would not be an issue for Has/Tak as it is becoming in 2013. It would die by itself.

I think you're missing that "not" in there. Nowhere have I said that 3rd parties are doing badly. I'm saying that the balloon will pop and Hasbro will soldier on because their market is far more stable and diversified than those of us who just want our childhoods with more articulation.

Also, whatever went on in 2007, and since does not matter, nor is accurate, as niche markets are now how businesses have found success. Example, Friendship is Magic, the Dark Souls video games series, Toll Brothers, Brooks Running Shoes, this list is beyond measure and growing. Another Niche success is Fans Project which you can see and the company boasts about on Facebook and more. For you to give the now defunct and tired argument of appealing to a broader, more wide spread, and as other mentioned, casual market, such a little kids, makes more sense, is being proven wrong more day by day.

I'm not arguing that they're not succeeding. I'm arguing that their days of succeeding is limited. Like you said earlier, and I agreed to, the 3rd party will climax soon and will fall. Hasbro grows and survives based on its diversity, it's not a tired argument; it's business fact.

...Okay, you say that I'm a biased "fan" attacking Hasbro, here I must stop you right there, and say I love Hasbro and Tomy, however, I'm not coming at this as you seem to mistakenly imply an angry "fan-boy". A little about myself. I actually am a producer, with a degree in marketing, another in business admin., and another in web based tech. I'm a no-shit holder of a Masters, a Bachelors, and an Associates, and I'm slowly working on a full blown Doctorate. This requires me to work on research papers, and even spend time teaching at a University. The arguments I've made have nothing to do with being a little whiny fan boy. Also, I'm not waving some pieces of academic paper and saying; "you can't argue with me 'cause I have a degree," as this is no defense, I'm simply saying you're completely miss-interpreting who I am and where my arguments are coming from. I'm making an argument based on facts, observations, and drawing perfectly logical conclusions from the facts.

Then I sincerely apologize for my earlier assumptions. Based on the language in your initial and subsequent posts, it came off as someone who staunchly camped in 3rd party land and viewed them as the 3rd coming of Primus, here to save Transformers from the evil that is Bay. However that doesn't invalidate many of my responses as I see them. You and I both seem to agree that the time of Third Parties will end sooner rather than later, and that their target market is niche; this seems to me that it goes against much of your earlier assertions that HasTak should do everything in their power to collaborate with them. I'm asserting that HasTak is working to bring focus back to themselves in order to outlast the Third Party balloon.

I will also state that even if I'm right about 3rd party in 2013, conditions may change, and 3rd party may day. I may be wrong even with the facts I've only begun to give. I admit that.

I also did say that I'm not unhappy with Hasbro and Tomy. I like 3rd party, I meant it when I said they gave me my nostalgic fix. I also loved Transformers Prime, and I'm really bothered that Hasbro regards it as a failure. TF.P was good because it was growth for TF. The return and emphasis in G1 is arguably a bad direction. Hasbro needs to look to the future, not the past to Beast Anything or G1. Please, no one start saying how TF.P was not a failure, that it was due to the series being between the movies or the bad economy. At least, don't make the argument with me, make it to Hasbro, they clearly see the series as, at the very least, a disappointment. If I had my way, TF.P would continue.

I wouldn't call it a failure, it was the first TF Series to air on Hasbro's private channel which I don't believe is part of standard cable packages in the US. Maybe it didn't meet expectations, but then again maybe expectations were too high to begin with?

If anyone references Hasbro's BS excuse that TF.P was cancelled because CG is more expensive, I'm a producer, traditional animation costs more. It was BS to anyone who knows anything about animation and I am not the first to have said this.

I'm not an animator, nor do I have the artistic ability to draw a stick figure. Costs aside, could it be that there's more flexibility in traditional-style animation than there is in CGI in terms of environments and number of characters.

The only failure of the Masterpieces I can see is the failure to produce a sufficient suply for the American releases.

Mkall wrote:

You didn't pay any attention to the Hasbro Q1 fiscal report for 2013, did you? If you did then you wouldn't be arguing on this point about Prime's failure in the eyes of Hasbro. From now on, every argument I make will be backed with references because I made the mistake of presuming you were informed by your counter arguments.

That all depends I suppose. I'm getting my info here. Is that where you're getting yours?

Ah, of course, the controversy again, LOL! You are not the first to point out this discrepancy...with Hasbro statements. There was a Q&A Session with the Q1 fiscal report, http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-new ... er-177308/ and a question was asked in regard to the Transformer toy line:

"If I recall, in first quarter last year transformers had [eroded ?] in lesser rate than we typically think of. Can you give any number on how Transformers did on a second year off a movie; this time vs. the last time?"

Hasbro CEO Brian Goldner delivered the answer:

"Transformers in this quarter is relatively flat. We are transitioning out of what was last year's mostly an entertainment-lead, television-led business. We are transitioning into the whole Transformers: Beast Hunters re-imagining with a new TV Series which launched just now and products rolling out throughout the year. Transformers, as you know, is a strong international brand for us but we saw a roughly flat business when we rolled out from one product line and into another."

This has been echoed in in a number of links. The controversy I mentioned was the spin which was close to Hasbro's statements back in 2012 on the DotM toyline. Hasbro stated that sales were great, and then, (inexplicably) claimed the line had to cancelled by retailers, despite selling well...(well maybe, the report was accurate & retailers cancelled DotM in-spite of Hasbro's bad taste). Anyway, please remind me later to give links on this amusing side note. If you're already informed, I will just move on.

The fiscal report from back in the start of the year said that sales for TF Prime Toys were flat, flat sales are bad.

Not in Q1 they aren't. It's typically expected in the toy industry to take a hit when compared to the sales figures in Q4 the year before. Heck, even when compared to 2012 Q1 Hasbro's revenues went up; granted it was more likely due to their Avengers-related products than Transformers. I'm actually unable to find any specific sales data for Transformers vs other brands in these reports, so I'm curious how you're coming to this conclusion.

I honestly agree with you, however, given the Conference Q&A I quoted and linked, Hasbro interpreted sales differently: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/bus ... t/2574165/

PAWTUCKET, Rhode Island (AP) — Hasbro's second-quarter net income fell 16%, hurt by cautious consumer spending and a steep drop in sales of boys' toys.

Toy industry sales have been in a slight decline all year, stung by a video game industry slump, shoppers' curtailed spending and increased demand for electronic gadgets like smartphones and tablets.

Prime was seen as a failure to Hasbro. I'm sure you see my point now even if you interpret the facts differently. Hasbro indicated that the TV based toys weren't doing well because parents focused on games and tech during 2012, also Q1 & Q2 2013. You had to have observed that Generations is now focused 1st on the games, & then 2nd the comics. Upon reflection of these quotes when we look at Metroplex for the Gen. line, it was created to target consumers who played the WfC & FoC Games. Satisfying collectors is a bonus, a cross-demographic bonus, but not the goal. Hopefully events will pan out to where Hasbro will create more digital content with more cross-demographic characters. (Not that the TF.P Prime series can't be argued fit that definition. To Hasbro, the new demographic is games and digital content instead of TV, also, don't forget about the hints about the TF 2k14 TV series being gearing for children. I'm expecting hyper stylized animation along the lines of CN's Adventure Time.)

It should be noted that in their Q3 report, Transformers is a Brand listed as growing.

I read that too which we should all rejoice all fans from the 80's. Yet, the call to cancel came by February. To Hasbro, the boost in sales in Q3 would be interpreted as vindication for the re-imagining of Prime, (possibly from the hype over the ending of the show), & the new focus on Generations's video game based toys.

*Note that I made this response before I read your credentials. I'm leaving it in because to be honest it's how I've interpreted these financial statements in the past.

No worries, I only mentioned it to say I'm not coming at this argument as a fan boy. Please do not refrain from thinking and pointing out when you think I'm wrong and then stating why. The piece of academic paper only means I came in to agreement that University's school of thought, which can be wrong, or, have a hidden agenda. Let me illustrate:

A very brilliant man with a doctorate said to a kindergartner, while observing a perched robin in a park on a sunny day, "The Robin is Grey". However, the Dr. was color blind, and the robin actually red.

The kindergartner, giggled and responded, innocently, "No it's not! The robin is red!" The babe misinterpreted the Dr. to be playing a game. But then the Doctor shot intense eyes at the Kindergartner, color blind eyes, and angrily rebuked, crying: "How dare you say I'm wrong! I have 5 degrees, and am respected by all!"

The child becomes very confused, got upset, began to cry and feebly protest, "But...it's not grey, it's...", and before the shocked babe could complete his correct observation, the incensed Doctor cut off the cringing, crying child. Sternly ordering, "Your just a kindergartner, not even in the 1st grade. To you I'm the equivalent 24th grade, and you are zero. You will stop arguing with me and repent, by confessing your agreement! ...For I'm respected by my peers, and if you do not comply I will order your mother to dicipline you harshly with the switch." Defeated, the wronged child agreed and thus, no longer recognized any red robins as red. Soon after, on the kindergartens first bike ride, failed to recognize the red stop light, and met a tragic, grey splattered, end...

Sales were already shrinking according to multiple reports, such as from Toy Fair in 2012. Hasbro had canceled the TF.P 1st Edition Line in 2012, as well as another line From DotM which had just been announced a few months before in 2012. Prime's ratings were down, so were the sales. Holiday for Hasbro in 2012 were also "not as expected" according to the Q1 report from 2012. Now you need to get past the PR spin for Hasbro's investors, "not meeting expectations" (12), "sales were flat" (13). Prime was then cancelled and fans were given a half season of 12 episodes instead of 24-26. The focus of the last line of TF.P toys shifted to the Beast Hunters/Predacon emphasis in the fall - a radical shift in direction from what had been done before. Also to come out of Convention in 13, such as in New York, at BotCon, ComicCon's (plural), as well as other conventions in the spring were clear, documented, and recorded statements by journalists of Hasbro Rep.'s. of Hasbro's shift in focus from Prime to Generations toys, (and don't miss this), from previous plans for TF.P. The new direction was the 30th Anniversary with energies being shifted to the Generations line and away from any further away from the Prime line.

That's pretty much what happened, but from what I've seen it's far from the term you used, which is a "failure." If the line was a failure, then we would've seen what happened with Animated where figures were announced and never delivered. From what I've seen, every TF: Prime figure that was announced has seen release. Heck, there's those simplified figures coming in 2014. They look like utter crap, but Hasbro seems to have enough confidence that they'll sell.

I understand your point, & given what I quoted, referenced, and stated above, I'm sure you see where I disagree.

But this is all off topic, and can be discussed again whenever the Hasbro Q4 financial statement is released.

Absolutely it can ^^

...

My point is that despite there being more 3rd party groups out there (they're not companies unless they pay taxes, and I'm betting most of them don't) each group isn't growing significantly. If they were growing we'd see more from them in terms of reliability, communication and production, and we're not. Sure we get lucky sometimes and see what seems to be a short turnaround between product releases, but then again it's taken us at least 2 years to get Motormaster from when they first showed us a teaser of Menasor.

I must concede this point, though remember, to the IRS, not paying taxes even in the "black-market" still counts as tax-evasion, because reported or not, (IE illegal or not), it's still a business if it creates revenue. LOL!

To be fair, FansProject is probably the closest of any of these groups to be called a company. They have two lines underway and are at least making progress on both in a semblance of simultaneity.

One of my links referencing this Hasbro, BotCon, & 3rd party info by Kotaku, but it was pulled with out explanation. You can only find a dead link now. Instead, I'm providing a link which is from a TF based site, http://tfarchive.com/fandom/features/th ... ransformer.

Most likely a C&D by Hasbro or FunPub. Shame really, I would've enjoyed reading it.

Agreed.

In the provided article it states that 2013 will likely be a climax for 3rd party given the market conditions. Hasbro is also now responding to 3rd party more proactively.

Personally I see the climax in 2015 when most of the big combiners are finished by whichever groups and collectors can start cherry-picking whichever single figures appeal to their tastes. I agree that Hasbro is taking steps to increase it's popularity with collectors, but there will be a coule areas where they will be deficient. Combiners by HasTak need to meet certain playability standards that 3rd parties don't need to adhere to, and I highly doubt we'll see actual headmasters coming from HasTak anytime soon unless it's a G1 reissue. The simple reason is; once you lose the head (those things are tiny!), the figure's playability falls harder than a Fort Max drop test.

That's what I'm thinking as well. After all we have the 4th Bay movie and, I feel, many positive things to expect in TF & the US economy too.

I have tried to look at online toy stores for hard figures, but information such as sales figures are generally not released. I will point again to the documented claims made by Hasbro since 2012 on disappointing sales, flat sales, shrinking sales, ETC. I will repeat an observation made by more than one market analysts, gauging 3rd party share, by pointing out online toy stores selection and variety of 3rd party toys, (in general), has measurably increased (Yahoo, Forbes, CNBC), frequently given as an example in these discussion is toys such as TF knock-offs. Now remember Hasbro giving attention to more G1 based toys, Generations, Masterpiece, and the radical shift in plans for Prime including it;s cancellation.

Mostly agreed: growth in the field, but not in the players. Although I wonder if the execs in charge of cancelling Prime are the same execs that cancelled the Prime line. I would think that The Hub Execs would've cancelled Prime before the toy execs did and the toy execs had to adapt. I'm not sure how that all works.

That would be a logical possibility. After all, anyone who knows about TV programming knows that Fridays nights are were TV shows go to die. There was a reason for ABC's TGI Friday's in the 80's and 90's. Back then I preferred to go see a movie, go to the arcade, or play video games, all with friends.

The issue of 3rd party is now being discussed on websites in regard to intellectual property, & how TF knock-offs are a unusual case. These websites actually attack 3rd party, stating it is blatant theft, & also how it thrives because it is a healthy niche market, and almost an underground industry.

That depends on which site. This one doesn't news anything about 3rd parties anymore and keeps the 3rd party boards in an unadvertised sub-forum. TFW promotes the big ticket items, and TFormers will post whatever the owner thinks will get him pageviews and profit. Every member here has views on the legitness of the 3rd party movement and they vary drastically.

Which is best for everyone, ultimately we want subsidiaries like this website, in the good-graces of Hasbro/Tomy.

If 3rd party was not doing well than you would not see more toys being offered, you would see the opposite. It would not be an issue for Has/Tak as it is becoming in 2013. It would die by itself.

I think you're missing that "not" in there. Nowhere have I said that 3rd parties are doing badly. I'm saying that the balloon will pop and Hasbro will soldier on because their market is far more stable and diversified than those of us who just want our childhoods with more articulation.

I kept missing that "Not", LOL, till you pointed it out. I should also amend the comment by saying that much of my comments are also directed at a few other replies. Apologies, I know better than to not keep my target clear.

...Another Niche success is Fans Project which you can see and the company boasts about on Facebook and more. For you to give the now defunct and tired argument of appealing to a broader, more wide spread, and as other mentioned, casual market, such a little kids, makes more sense, is being proven wrong more day by day.

I'm not arguing that they're not succeeding. I'm arguing that their days of succeeding is limited. Like you said earlier, and I agreed to, the 3rd party will climax soon and will fall. Hasbro grows and survives based on its diversity, it's not a tired argument; it's business fact.

I partly agree as I believe that part of the condition I believe is coming is that Hasbro/Tomy will really feed the market better in the end, (or all the collectors will suddenly get a hard-on when another company starts selling actual Transforming Robots...(wink, wink...nudge, nudge...say no more, say no more).

...Okay, you say that I'm a biased "fan" attacking Hasbro, here I must stop you right there, and say I love Hasbro and Tomy, however, I'm not coming at this as you seem to mistakenly imply an angry "fan-boy". A little about myself. I actually am a producer, with a degree in marketing, another in business admin., and another in web based tech. I'm a no-shit holder of a Masters, a Bachelors, and an Associates, and I'm slowly working on a full blown Doctorate. This requires me to work on research papers, and even spend time teaching at a University. The arguments I've made have nothing to do with being a little whiny fan boy. Also, I'm not waving some pieces of academic paper and saying; "you can't argue with me 'cause I have a degree," as this is no defense, I'm simply saying you're completely miss-interpreting who I am and where my arguments are coming from. I'm making an argument based on facts, observations, and drawing perfectly logical conclusions from the facts.

Then I sincerely apologize for my earlier assumptions. Based on the language in your initial and subsequent posts, it came off as someone who staunchly camped in 3rd party land and viewed them as the 3rd coming of Primus, here to save Transformers from the evil that is Bay. However that doesn't invalidate many of my responses as I see them.

And don't ever let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

You and I both seem to agree that the time of Third Parties will end sooner rather than later, and that their target market is niche; this seems to me that it goes against much of your earlier assertions that HasTak should do everything in their power to collaborate with them. I'm asserting that HasTak is working to bring focus back to themselves in order to outlast the Third Party balloon.

I can see what you mean, it's my fault for not remembering my audience, which is one of the basic rules for any writing. I should have said more but also didn't want to bore people. Apologies. This is a bad habit of mine.

...Please, no one start saying how TF.P was not a failure, that it was due to the series being between the movies or the bad economy. At least, don't make the argument with me, make it to Hasbro, they clearly see the series as, at the very least, a disappointment. If I had my way, TF.P would continue.

I wouldn't call it a failure, it was the first TF Series to air on Hasbro's private channel which I don't believe is part of standard cable packages in the US. Maybe it didn't meet expectations, but then again maybe expectations were too high to begin with?

That is a common failing of large companies such as Hasbro. If expectations are not met...well, this by itself is a huge topic of debate and study.

If anyone references Hasbro's BS excuse that TF.P was cancelled because CG is more expensive, I'm a producer, traditional animation costs more. It was BS to anyone who knows anything about animation and I am not the first to have said this.

I'm not an animator, nor do I have the artistic ability to draw a stick figure. Costs aside, could it be that there's more flexibility in traditional-style animation than there is in CGI in terms of environments and number of characters.

[/quote] You are right about the flexibility advantage. Cost per episode may be much higher for hand-drawn animation, but even in half the number of episodes, TF Animated had...what, 3 times the number of characters? More toys can be featured this way.

I'm sure you'll have some more things to point out. I may not reply till tomorrow, still, I feel made my point, (without starting an actual case study - haha!). And I did enjoy myself, thoroughly, and learned a few things.

Here is the gift of the perfect digital pet [ ] Scaplets=Kremzeek

Tronus_Rex, I am deeply disappointed that you are a business-savvy Transformers fan with coherent ideas and strong critical thinking skills, and not, in fact, some knuckle-dragging troll whose very presence on Earth seemed to be delivered by angels for my amusement (when I should be doing other things).

This thread took a much more thoughtful turn than I expected. Carry on.

It Is Him wrote:Tronus_Rex, I am deeply disappointed that you are a business-savvy Transformers fan with coherent ideas and strong critical thinking skills, and not, in fact, some knuckle-dragging troll whose very presence on Earth seemed to be delivered by angels for my amusement (when I should be doing other things).

This thread took a much more thoughtful turn than I expected. Carry on.

You're disappointed?? I was the guy who decided to call him out. Imagine my surprise when his responses got me thinking and doing research in order to respond accurately! That hasn't happened to me in a long time.

Let it be known that Tronus_Rex is a damn decent chap.

Tronus_Rex wrote:Ah, of course, the controversy again, LOL! You are not the first to point out this discrepancy...with Hasbro statements. There was a Q&A Session with the Q1 fiscal report, http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-new ... er-177308/ and a question was asked in regard to the Transformer toy line:

"If I recall, in first quarter last year transformers had [eroded ?] in lesser rate than we typically think of. Can you give any number on how Transformers did on a second year off a movie; this time vs. the last time?"

Hasbro CEO Brian Goldner delivered the answer:

"Transformers in this quarter is relatively flat. We are transitioning out of what was last year's mostly an entertainment-lead, television-led business. We are transitioning into the whole Transformers: Beast Hunters re-imagining with a new TV Series which launched just now and products rolling out throughout the year. Transformers, as you know, is a strong international brand for us but we saw a roughly flat business when we rolled out from one product line and into another."

Thanks for that. I often forget about TFW's news source.

Mkall wrote:

It Is Him wrote:Tronus_Rex, I am deeply disappointed that you are a business-savvy Transformers fan with coherent ideas and strong critical thinking skills, and not, in fact, some knuckle-dragging troll whose very presence on Earth seemed to be delivered by angels for my amusement (when I should be doing other things).

This thread took a much more thoughtful turn than I expected. Carry on.

You're disappointed?? I was the guy who decided to call him out. Imagine my surprise when his responses got me thinking and doing research in order to respond accurately! That hasn't happened to me in a long time.

Let it be known that Tronus_Rex is a damn decent chap.

Tronus_Rex wrote:Ah, of course, the controversy again, LOL! You are not the first to point out this discrepancy...with Hasbro statements. There was a Q&A Session with the Q1 fiscal report, http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-new ... er-177308/ and a question was asked in regard to the Transformer toy line:

"If I recall, in first quarter last year transformers had [eroded ?] in lesser rate than we typically think of. Can you give any number on how Transformers did on a second year off a movie; this time vs. the last time?"

Hasbro CEO Brian Goldner delivered the answer:

"Transformers in this quarter is relatively flat. We are transitioning out of what was last year's mostly an entertainment-lead, television-led business. We are transitioning into the whole Transformers: Beast Hunters re-imagining with a new TV Series which launched just now and products rolling out throughout the year. Transformers, as you know, is a strong international brand for us but we saw a roughly flat business when we rolled out from one product line and into another."

Thanks for that. I often forget about TFW's news source.

Thank you, both of you, and same to you both ^^ I tried having a suitable funny YouTube vid., embedded or linked, with a line from "Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy", the episode "Mandy Bites Dog", (might be mistaken), anyway, Irwin, the nerdy boy in love with Mandy is in home ec, is complemented for brilliant crochet and replies "I am a crocheting god...WORSHIP ME!!!"

TfPrime wasn't cancelled. Hasbro and the show producers stated at the very beginning that they planed on making three seasons with 65 episodes. With the option that should it be successful they would make more, the team is already working on the sequel series.
I wish I could post a proper linked source for this, but I can't this is from 2010 (BotCon or SDCC) and I can't find the article that stated it. There still is one on TFW but it's super vague and not the one I read back then.

65 episodes being the magic number for sindication, we should also not forget that next year is movie year and that line typically sells well (save for DOTM) to the point that it becomes the sole focus of stores. The Animated line was delayed by 6 months because retailers demanded more Movie stuff, and Animated itself was then cancelled and cut short to focus on the next movie incarnation, and TF Prime.

First Edition was a limited edition short run preview line exclusive to ToysRus, which saw terrible distribution, the US only got like half of it, Europe got zero, while Asian markets got the full line. In some Asian markets the line was so overstocked that it was even shelf-warming. So it wasn't cancelled, it was always meant to be just a handful of figures.

By season 3 Hasbro Studios had managed to eat through their original story plans for Prime, so Hasbro (the toy guys), seeing the bad performance of the Prime RID line forced the Beast Hunters concept on them, to improve toy sales. That seems to have worked out petty nicely since the Prime line seems to be continuing into 2014, likely to be replaced by Age of Extinction.

@Mykltron

FP almost went bankrupt with their Trailer?

@ Tronus

Nope. The bellyacher term wasn't technically poised at you, if you felt slighted, that was not the intent because I kind of enjoy your thoughtful concerns, as you have to admit, when Tomy releases an extra paint style version from the domestic release, people will complain that the additions don't justify the price difference.Seems a lot of such posting don't understand capitalism Extra services, extra cost.........Profit.And that the extra paint apps is for the Japanese market.

The Masterpiece line is iirc the brain child of Takara. Sure, they get the license from Hasbro but they are the driving force. Plain and simple, its targeted to the collector market who have wads of excess/disposable cash. In Japan, there are lots of those.....MP in fact seems to be the cheapest in SRP compared to the likes of Bandai's Soul of Chogokin

MP Megatron for instance.......that lovely clunker (same like Hotrodimus (which I don't own) with all the dents and whistles it came with) which I own would never get approved for a USA domestic release.Would a company release an item they are sure to lose profit on? It was targeted for the Japanese market. Only the Japanese TF team would even green lighted it.

Ambulance chasers, well the USA really needs to reform on Tort. A missile lodges to a nose or a drop tested crashing a pinky and you get a lawsuit in the offing. Thanks to such troubles, I don't think 3rd party type of figures will ever get released mainstream in the domestic market.

Is the Revoltech contract with Tomy expired? I do recall as of recently they sold DOTM Optimus. So not sure if more will come.

In Japan, another 3rd party, Artstorm has a patent for a non transforming Roadbuster and Sunrise heroes (I assume its from a Bandai sublime) had a Dai Atlas figurine. So it doesn't seem to be such a big issue over there and that other company (which I still can't recall)that used to release TF kits had a limited license (Wheelie, Cyclonus and Powerglide).

As for MPs, I'd like that too, but R and D can't be rushed without considering some of the factors I mentioned (especially the legal ones). Just be patient and before you know it, all will eventually be released (though in my case, I'll be picking and choosing because they don't come cheap and I'm still eating Scooby snacks after TG Medtroplex .

I think third parties do small production runs of figures that Has/Tak either never would or never could, at least not in any massive numbers due to the cost and limited market for such toys/collectors' items. If they tried, the high price tags for what are (compared to most official MP releases at least) much smaller and less show accurate would scare most collectors off I think. We expect more from "official" products and we give the third parties a pass all day long because they have the excuse of having to avoid Has/Tak's IP, but the fact of the matter is that if they really wanted to they could make better/more accurate figures than they are, they just wouldn't get carried by as many of the retailers online so they look after their bottom line and keep chasing the collectors of "CHUG" to fill their pockets (most of them anyway) in the hopes that yet again those collectors will drop $60~$100 per figure for what Has/Tak would have probably charged between $20~$50 for. There are some exceptions of course (Quakewave comes to mind, both for overall reasonable (though far from perfect) show accuracy and price point), but the vast majority of these third party toys, if offered by Has/Tak just as they are, sold as collectors' items and with the prices they have now would probably not do too well. At least I don't think they would. I believe collectors would expect more from them and would expect to pay less (you gotta remember, many of these collectors who are willing to shell out tons of $ on third party stuff aren't even willing to put out an extra $10~$20 for the "better" paint jobs of Takara's normal/non-MP releases of figures).

Besides, I don't know the actual numbers, but overall the G1 fans are getting on in years. I was in kindergarten around the time G1 started (84~85) and I'm now approaching my mid-30's. Once I and the rest of the "younger" G1 fans pass on or simply lose interest, there won't likely be too many still overly interested in hardcore "G1" representations/toys from that era. I'm certain there will still be plenty of Transformers fans, but I think that later iterations such as Beast Wars, the Unicron Trilogy, the Bay Movies etc. and even TF:Prime and Rescue Bots will have their day. Of course (hopefully, for those in my age group at least ) we've still got a few decades, but I don't think that Hasbro, Takara or any third party are thinking that the idea of catering to G1 collectors is going to last forever or going to be a stable business model for any major portion of their income over an extended period of time.

I think Takara and Hasbro are currently doing just the right amount to keep us interested, both in MPs and in the Generations line. If they dedicated as much to it as these third parties are, I think they'd definitely be heading towards bankrupting the brand fast and in the worst way by alienating the younger crowd. Sure they still mix in homages and inspiration from G1 and other versions of the Transformers from the past, but they still keep it fresh, different and "new" for the sake of the younger generations of kids now growing up with "their Transformers" who will also one day make up the "collectors' market".

Another great example of how a company can balance such things is Bandai and the Godzilla brand/lines of figures and such. They generally create a new, "better" line of figures every few years but it almost always runs the entire gambit of every version of the characters from pretty much all of the Toho Godzilla films unless it's a limited line of figures produced exclusively to profit from the most recently released theatrical film (similar to Generations vs the Movie toys for a given TF film). They know full well that certain "Godzillas" and other Kaiju won't sell as well due to what they've pegged over the years as their most popular versions (the "Millenium" Godzilla always sells better than the 70's "Cookie Monster" Godzilla for example), but they don't exclude that "Cookie Monster" Godzilla from the lineup because they know that there are still the diehard fans who will either only purchase that version or will purchase the entire line (completionists). I think that Has/Tak are really finding their stride with regards to doing a similar thing with Generations now except they actually have too many lines/versions of all of their characters to draw from so they're picking the most popular ones first (which is why we've got like 9 Optimus Primes/Orion Paxs and Megatrons) and throwing in less popular/less substantial ones in as they go (hence the Skids we got recently, among others).

Then of course, there's the MP line which this thread's topic seemed to be focused on in the beginning. I really can't see how they're dropping the ball with it at all, at least not Takara (one could argue that Hasbro hasn't handled it quite as well with Acid Storm being a prime example). They appear to be going through the entire roster of 84 bots as well as several others from later years where they can (repaints/retools as mentioned by others in this thread) and I'm convinced that as long as these figures make them a profit (remember what I said in my last post about them selling out all the time?), they will continue to keep the line going with new characters/figures from G1 (and possibly beyond). To me it appears as though Takara Tomy is doing EXACTLY what they should to really cater to the hardcore G1 fans. They're getting out regular releases of multiple characters/figures per year on a fairly consistent schedule, spaced out just enough to give us both fair warning (for pre-orders) and time (to save up the $ for those who don't have as much disposable income/have other stuff to buy) so that we can keep the new figures coming into our collections without breaking the bank. I mean really, are we comparing 3rd party MP releases to Takara's here? Let's count the actual 3rd party MP figures which have actually been released already, shall we?:

1. Fanstoys Quakewave/Shockwave
2. (arguably, because they're not precisely "G1 accurate") KFC's Squawkbox combiner cassette set
3. (again, arguably for the same reason above) KFC's recently (like maybe a week ago) Slamdance combiner cassette set
4. One could *possibly* (though I don't agree at all as I think they're more "Classics" scale) argue iGear's Ironhide
5. Same as above for iGear's Ratchet

Now, let's see how badly Takara has let us down with their abysmal roster of recent MP releases since MP-10, shall we?:

1. Lambor/Sideswipe
2. Red Alert
3. Soundwave
4. Starscream (MP-11 version)
5. Rumble and Buzzsaw (only counting them as one since they came in a set)
6. Frenzy and Ravage (same as above, they count as one because they came in a set)
7. Prowl
8. Bluestreak

Now, let's look at just how many upcoming third party "MP" figures/characters we've got coming to see just how badly they're destroying Takara's rates of release:

1. Skyfire
2. Huffer
3. Pipes
4. Slag
5. Overlord (Once could argue that he doesn't count since he was never featured in the G1 Sunbow series. I know I wouldn't put him on my MP shelf, even if Takara did one but I'll include him here because I know some collectors might.)

Is that it? Just 10 in total for the third parties between what they've already released and what we're (or at least I'm) aware of that they're going to release in the near future (I thought Blaster was at first until I discovered that both versions of him are Voyager size, not MP size)?

Now, since I'm also counting known upcoming releases of 3rd party "MP" figures, let's be fair and include Takara's known upcoming MP releases:

1. Smokescreen
2. Bumblebee
3. Wheeljack
4. Ultra Magnus (armor and all for once, finally, prayers answered )

So now that brings our total to 12 for Takara (of course if you count Hasbro, then you must also count Thundercracker which used the new MP-11 style mold, bringing the total to 13) to 10 for the third parties. So unless I'm missing something major here, I think Takara (even without Hasbro) is actually doing better than all of the third parties combined with regards to "MP" figures (again, MP, as that was the original subject of the topic, not "Classics"/"Generations etc.).

So yeah, third parties are not outclassing Takara with regards to MPs.

Of course, Hasbro on the other hand, yes, of course they are, but let's be fair now. Hasbro is a North American based company who handles distribution worldwide with the exception of Japan and for whatever reason, they have chosen to cater more to children than they have adult collectors (unlike Takara). Third parties are arguably generally China based companies handling distribution of their products worldwide (at least I've never heard any third party claim to be based in any other country).

So for my money, if Hasbro dropped the ball that Takara's been picking up, it's still a better deal to pay less for what Takara sells and get a superior product than to drop more cash on a third party toy that "sure looks similar to" the G1 characters I grew up with. But then again, you also have to concede that if you wait for the Hasbro release of an MP, you'll probably pay less money and get more stuff (the "extras" Takara charged more for/sold separately, at least in the case of Soundwave, although prime was the same in that regard, but with a cheaper price).

So to sum up, I leave you with this (and of course, that's just the Autobots ):

By the way, just for the record (and the reason for my above diatribe ), I'm of the opinion that third parties (for the most part) were born out of the desire of many collectors to fill out their Classics collections with characters/figures which Hasbro either hadn't done yet (Springer/Warbot Defender etc., including the combiners) or hadn't done to their satisfaction (City Commander/Magnus, Protector/Rodimus Prime, Optimus' (many) 3rd party trailers, the guns, heads and other accessories for Classics/Generations etc. figures et al), *NOT* MP, which is the entire basis of my argument against the premise that (as stated in the thread's title) "Hasbro has failed with Masterpiece series to satisfy collectors & thus 3rd party niche was born."

I'd be surprised if most 3rd-party companies make any profit at all. I bet they make just enough to cover their expenses and break even.

GuyIncognito wrote:I'd be surprised if most 3rd-party companies make any profit at all. I bet they make just enough to cover their expenses and break even.

That is usually how 99% of companies have there start. Many are in the negative for more than just a year. However, the ones that make it usually find a breakout moment where they go from red to black, & then really begin growing by leaps & bounds.

There are some credible signs that at least a few 3rd party companies might have reached the breakout stage. But unless the hard numbers come from these companies ledgers and such, we will not no for certain. If you look at the giant success of Crocket with it's WCW/NWA in the 80's. Their company appeared ready to eclipse the WWF. Until, the Crocket family paid Vince McMahon more than a million dollars (at least), to get back on TV with Turner networks. That didn't kill the company as much as reveal just how badly Crocket was doing with handling financials and working with promoters/bookers.

With as shaky a foundation, IP issues, as these "companies" have it wouldn't make much sense to invest in them. I also think it would be hard for them to get loans from any reputable bank. So how will they be able to grow?

xyl360, I can see your point and it is valid, yet I feel that the new MP line revisiting so many characters that were already visited just a few years ago in the first MP run is a failing, in their choice. Some of these G1 MP figures have now seen more original G1 releases than many can keep track of. Plus the 1st MP line might be seen as not needing to be revisited. I will say I love the updates to the figures. It does make me have hope for new MP Megatron and others. It does look like both Hasbro and Takara lost interest for a time as the line did lose steam for a little while.

You said certain characters could never be created by Takara, & that 3rd party likely does not make enough money with these character to justify, Hasbro and Takara, (MP's author), to devote further resources than they're already using. But companies usually do have to struggle before they breakout and really begin growing by leaps and bounds. You state that collectors are not enough. Yet if MP really does sell as well as it is, and 3rd party is not shrinking and growing, I have to point out there isn't enough evidence to say that the collectors are just not enough to sustain sales of such high end figures. The figures have to be selling, or Takara would have given up and 3rd party would die.

One argument that has been made is that 3rd party is alive just because fans are spending money to make the products. However, I have seen this real scenario actually play out before. In Colorado, there is a very nice distiller of award winning liquors, that was created by a fan. His product was very professional and very good. However he was not concerned about making money, at all. He made choices with his store & bar hours that anyone with a brain would recognize as bad. He also declined to make any real efforts to distribute his product to any of the Liquor stores and/or popular eating and drinking establishments. He started with millions. Said he did not care to make money. Now he has just closed his doors for good because not enough capital was being brought in to keep his passion going. He opened his doors back in February 2012, & now has closed as of September 2013. When you look at how much he invested as a fan and how without enough income he could keep his company alive for roughly 16/17 months it demonstrates that if not enough income feeds the company then it will die and fast.

3rd party companies have to have a better attitude than being mere fans. True fans of a given product/service often take their passion/vision and start their own ventures. Look at Tesla for example. Now most companies don't start instantly making profits, instead they lose money for months, often years. They are still contenders to go from red to black and really grow. The signs seen by the 3rd parties products, makes me lean more towards these companies really starting to pick up momentum.

Of course the future is never certain.

PS, the Distiller's name was Judges Choice.

Tronus_Rex wrote:xyl360, I can see your point and it is valid, yet I feel that the new MP line revisiting so many characters that were already visited just a few years ago in the first MP run is a failing, in their choice.

And again I ask (because you seemed to have skipped over the first time I asked), aside from Optimus Prime, who exactly is being revisited in the new MP line?

I am guessing this thread popped up because of the MP not-Slag was announced?

I think 3rd party started originally with classics figures and upgrade kits so it isn't about Hasbro failing the MP line.

3rd parties are infringing on IP, but I am hypocritical because I do own 3rd party toys. That said... I do cringe a little now that 3rd parties are getting into the Masterpiece arena....

Masterpiece is kind of like the final say on the g1 characters I grew up with. I definitely prefer official MP figures vs. third party. I will not buy a 3rd party MP toy. At least with classics figures most 3rd parties try to put their own stylistic spin on it.

It just makes me feel uneasy because Takara's MP output is slow. 3rd parties getting in on the MP action will definitely deter Takara from doing a figure. I really want an official MP Shockwave. It could be a long while before that happens because of Quakewave.

If sales for Takara's MP's are strong they WILL do the Dinobots eventually. Now that not-Slag is coming....maybe that is not a reality now.

Burn wrote:

Tronus_Rex wrote:xyl360, I can see your point and it is valid, yet I feel that the new MP line revisiting so many characters that were already visited just a few years ago in the first MP run is a failing, in their choice.

And again I ask (because you seemed to have skipped over the first time I asked), aside from Optimus Prime, who exactly is being revisited in the new MP line?

Sorry I didn't get back to you burn. I'll start with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers:_Masterpiece
then a summary:
6 separate versions of Convoy, 4:MP1's & 2MP4's, also Ultra Magnus without his trailer/armor, & Black Convoy. Arguably there should only be, Convoy with trailer, Convoy without trailer, Ultra Magnus WITH trailer/armor, and then Black Convey (our Nemesis Prime).
2 Starscream versions (Takara), Skywarp, & Thundercracker. It is nice that these figures have little differences in the molds & accessories.
2 Grimlock versions (Tomy again), regular and King Grimlock
2 Rodimus Convoys, whiny version and black version.

...1 Megatron...odd as there was the blue "Megaplex" from Takara in 85(?).

I made a mistake with the 2007 Soundwave as this is actually not considered a Masterpiece figure. But it's still a remake of Soundwave. http://www.amazon.com/Transformers-Taka ... +soundwave

I was thinking that the Autobot cars had already been given the materpiece treatment, but the previous "updates" to these characters came in the United, Alternator/Binaltech, Classics, & Titanium lines. I won't count all the G1 Toy re-issues.

I do see where the confusion was, however who from G1 has received no Masterpiece G1 treatment, while we have many others or the equivalent of MP? Prime/Convoy, Jazz, Ultra Magnus, the Seekers, & the sports cars.

I will be positive though, and point out the new Masterpiece series figures that are based on characters that seem to have been completely forgotten. I would love to see Iron Hide done, actual trailer/armor for Magnus, Sunstorm instead of Tigger (LOL), Thrust, Dirge, Ramjet, and why the hell not a more interesting remold of the femcon seeker Slipstream.

I think many just feel that even more figures need to be done. More than one 'con leader...you've heard all the arguments of course - I'm sure you echo them as well.

Still not sure what you mean by so many characters being revisited.

I feel that the new MP line revisiting so many characters that were already visited just a few years ago in the first MP run is a failing,

If we count Masterpiece 2.0 beginning with MP10, then really only Prime and Starscream have been revisited. All other releases (and future releases) are characters that haven't been given the MP treatment. So still not seeing how it's fail.

If we count Masterpiece 2.0 beginning with MP10, then really only Prime and Starscream have been revisited. All other releases (and future releases) are characters that haven't been given the MP treatment. So still not seeing how it's fail.

The line is starting all over without having even done any Triple Changers, Gestalts, Headmasters/Targetmasters, really what we have seen that has been interesting has come from 3rd party. I'm more happy with Not-Megatron than actual Takara MP-05. Hercules is awesome. Love Quakewave, and Hexatron. I have Ultra Magnus armor for the Classic's line and cool trailer/armor for Prime from classics.

3rd party exists because Takara either hasn't been capable of producing more or their unwilling. Weather a a fault or not, 3rd party wouldn't exist if TomyTakara built more, and Hasbro supported Takara's efforts more seriously.

The collector market niche may be a small niche, but it's worse more than just a few million. Capital and revenue is still worth acquiring and just what is learned in the investment advances toy making efficiency and capability. What may only make a small amount of money in the short run could, in the long term picture, allow Tak/Has to improve all production as well as reduce cost. How can this not be a win/win for all?

Eventually, 3rd party could choose to cease producing knock-offs, and make there own toy IP line and become just as big, if not bigger than companies like Hasbro.

I'm not talking about 3rd party though. I'm just trying to understand this statement you made.

I feel that the new MP line revisiting so many characters that were already visited just a few years ago in the first MP run is a failing,

This argument is more interesting than us mere "fans" realize I should think, because it has been argued before in more industries than any of us likely know.

Here is my example.



In the 50's Ford launched it's Thuderbird, 2 seat, V8, sports car. It was a huge success and demand exceeded sales. Above Picture hosted by: http://wingspilotshop.net/AV8America/ha ... -D_16.html 1957 T-Bird Add




The Thunderbird became an icon of Americana, yet Ford executives did not believe that it was worth the investment despite great success. Ford redesigned the T-Bird from a 2 seater, to a 4 seat, power coupe. Above Picture URL from: http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread84316-2.html 1956 T-Bird Convertible : Pink




The 4 seater was a success, yet, the 2 seater sports scar market was still hungry and demanded cars such as the T-Bird 2 seater. Above Picture Hosted by : http://www.hollywoodbobsmoviecars.com/1 ... _tbird.htm 1962 Ford T-Bird Convertable : Red




General Motors recognized the demand, and already had the Corvette and capitalized on being alone in American made 2-seat sports cars. Thus, GM filled this market instead of Ford. Above Picture Hosted by : http://bringatrailer.com/2008/05/02/bar ... type-mule/ 1958 Stingray Concept/Mule



Ford even goes as far as creating the 4 door, Thuderbird sedan...




At this point the Ford exec's had lost vision of what the market wanted as T-Bird sales for it's Sedan were a disappointment, and the option "...would remain available through 1971, but never generated substantial sales." Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Thund ... generation)

Picture above from : http://www.netcarshow.com/ford/1968-thunderbird/ 1968 Ford T-Bird Sedan


Ford did attempt to return it's T-bird, to a sports car approach with a very lightened, 2 door power coupe in the 80's - the "Aerobird" & even a TurboCoupe. Yet, Ford failed to consistently push the T-bird as Ford had a, arguably, better sports coupe in the Mustang. The Aerobird became a Very Aerobird in 1987-88. (My first car was a 1987 Thunderbird with a 5.0 V8 - a good first car for any young male in the 90's.)



The T-bird became a High-Tech Bird in the 90's and then production ceased in 1997. Mustang's continued to sell. Yet Corvette was still successful, even seeing another american rival in the Dodge Viper. Above picture from : http://www.gatsbyonline.com/main.aspx?p ... 6&cat=auto 1990 Ford T-Bird




2014 Corvette
Above picture from : http://www.autoblog.com/2013/04/26/emba ... ette-sting




2014 Viper
Above Picture from : http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013031 ... /130319784


In the early 2000's, Ford tried a retro, 2-seat Thunderbird, but the vehicle was a heavy, under-powered, boulevard cruiser, and not a true sports car. Ford still looked at it's Mustang line as it's sports car.



Vehicle sales at the beginning of production was good for this, the last T-Bird so far, but, quickly diminished as Retrobird/Dodobird, was a peacock that only appealed to a few. Sports car fans and, notably, Thunderbird fans were very unhappy with the product. Production only lasted 2 1/2 years. Above Image from : http://forums.inr8.com/showthread.php?5 ... onvertible.




Ford Exec's continued to support the Mustang, but, even the Mustang's mass market appeal had detractors within Ford who argued the company should put it's efforts in to other vehicles. Vehicles, such as compact cars, and a possible 4-cylinder turbocharged, 2-seat sports car. Even so, and with renewed vision, the Mustang was given a fresch, retro-aesthetic. A brand new Mustang was produced, and become more popular than it had in years. Sales were high. Above Picture from : http://www.zimbio.com/Car+news/articles ... ang+Review




However, since the 2000's, the Mustang was no longer targeted to compete with the Corvette. It now faces Bumbleb...er, the Chevy Camaro (Friend in Spanish), and the Dodge Challenger. Industry analysts point out the market for people who want a muscle car, such as the Mustang, is completely different than market that demands the Corvette. Above Picture from : http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/cou ... nger_srt8/.

Mustang has carried on suped-up high end productions of the Mustang with other companies such as Shelby, however, this has equivalents in Camaro and Challenger. Also, Viper, and Corvette have super modified versions from licensed 3rd parties.

The argument that High End, Premium, and Niche markets are not worth catering to because few are capable and then willing to purchase such items is old. However, the demand is still there anyway. These products are, without-a-doubt, luxury items. Yet even a middle class individual may spend hundreds, or thousands to fulfill that individuals desire for said product.

Economies change, markets come and go, but there is always a market such items as, high end toys, and the like...even among adults.

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/thunderbird/history.html

http://www.gatsbyonline.com/main.aspx?page=text&id=676&cat=auto

http://www.netcarshow.com/ford/1968-thunderbird/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Thunderbird_(fifth_generation)



I do want to acknowledge that the G1-esque Transformer toy will, eventually, stop selling. But, from past toy trends, such as James Bond toys, and a mutitude of other examples, the collector market will live on for DECADES . The youth's that played with these toys in the 80's will likely collect them even in to retirement. And other kids will find there favorite toys, such as Transformers, and themselves too grow up and some will ask for the classics and high end new ones. This is now the norm of the 21st century, the norm of the niche, and the collector.

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/the-best-life/2010/04/02/collecting-a-great-hobby-for-retirees

Find a hungry market, starving and unsatisfied, and then feed it's demand, or, create desire for a product or service and then satisfy said market...(proverb for an entrepreneur).

Burn wrote:I'm not talking about 3rd party though. I'm just trying to understand this statement you made.

I feel that the new MP line revisiting so many characters that were already visited just a few years ago in the first MP run is a failing,

Putting out the same product in one form or another, building only Muscle Cars, Trucks, and Sedans, with no Sports Cars, Off Road Vehicles...or in another term from Henry Ford: People can have the Model T in any color - so long as it's black. (BBC) Because Ford really only produced the Model T, other car companies started to outsell him by the 20's.

Optimus Prime/Convoy has become Hasbro's proverbial model T, along with a small selection of others.

Tronus_Rex wrote:

Burn wrote:I'm not talking about 3rd party though. I'm just trying to understand this statement you made.

I feel that the new MP line revisiting so many characters that were already visited just a few years ago in the first MP run is a failing,

Putting out the same product in one form or another, building only Muscle Cars, Trucks, and Sedans, with no Sports Cars, Off Road Vehicles...or in another term from Henry Ford: People can have the Model T in any color - so long as it's black. (BBC) Because Ford really only produced the Model T, other car companies started to outsell him by the 20's.

Optimus Prime/Convoy has become Hasbro's proverbial model T, along with a small selection of others.

But again, I don't understand why you're saying they are "revisiting so many characters that were already visited a few years ago in the first MP run".

The only two revisited in MP2.0 is Optimus Prime and Starscream. We've gotten Sideswipe, Soundwave (and his cassettes) Red Alert, Prowl, Streak and Smokescreen, plus we have Wheeljack and Bumblebee on the way as well. None of these were down in the original Masterpiece run.

So please explain how this is a failing.

Okay, I will give it one more try.

TomyTakara knows there is a collectors market for G1 and now for more. It's solution is to give to this market characters that are well worn out. Optimus Prime and his G1 model has been abused by repeatedly releasing the MP-01, MP-04, mold (singular). Ultra Magnus is nothing more than a MP-01 recolor without his trailer-armor. Why is there no trailer/armor? Magnus's appeal is the armor and not including this is half-hearted and lazy at best. MP-10, is a good improvement, I love it, I really do, however, I'm in no hurry to purchase it. I've got so Optimus Prime toys that I am tired of buying versions of him right now, even for an MP-10.

This is a legit term called "market fatigue" which has multiple meanings.

The sports cars from G1 had really good treatments, especially in Binaltech/Alternator. I do like the new G1 based Masterpiece Autobots cars.

However, collectors want other characters. We have been fed what we want, now we are bored/tired of being given the same 'bots.

Soundwave had a great MP3 playing toy. The MP-13 figure is good, but still. This also goes for Starscream and the classic seekers.

Imagine you lived in a small town that had a wonderful Pizza Restaurant, which had great pizza. The pizza menu is very simple with authentic & traditional Italian recipe's, only. The variety is really just 2 choices of cheese, 2 sauces, 1 type of mushroom,a few vegetables, and no meat. Really it's just one basic but good pizza (MP-01/MP-04 Mold). For entree's you can have soup or salad. Your alternative is pasta. You aren't offered calzones, subs, wings, nacho's, fries, or meat for your pizza. You can drink wine but only in one red & one white. For beer, you only have Heineken. Carbonated water too, but no syrup or cream for a proper Italian soda.

As described, this isn't a bad restaurant, in fact, many would say this is a wonderful pizzeria. You spend most Friday or Saturday nights at this restaurant. But eventually, you start to want the things that aren't offered. Subs, Calzones, Meat (MP-05 Megatron)...wings...something more to drink...This only comes by traveling out of town which requires a very long drive, (importing from Asia). The positive is that it usually costs only 10 a person, or 17 at most. If you have to drive elsewhere for somethign different, then you need to worry about cost of gas and more.

For 6 years, this is all you have. Everyone asks the owners for more variety, & they do make additions to the menu (Grimlock), but slowly, as they seem to not think it important. Some additions are disappointing such as the Calzone (MP-09 Rodimus Convoy). By year 7 you and everyone want something more. You've become willing to make that 3 hour drive to eat something more than what this simple establishment will provide.

Another restaurant opens down the street and around the corner. It serves Pizza too, but also with meat (Hegamon/not-Megatron), more varieties of sauce (additions to toys from 3rd party for Hasbo), a different selection of cheese(untouched G1 characters from season 1 and 2), a few seasonals(interesting theme homages), and a much larger selection including larger pies(Ultra Magnus w/Armor). It offers you calzones, subs, nachos, fries, salads as meals, nachos, wings, Italian chicken, and whatever adult beverage you want. (This represents all the standard Autobots and Decepticons that were not done by Takara/Hasbro). However, it costs 13-22 per person as long as you don't get crazy with the bar.

Wouldn't you think the new place as a good popular alternative?

Then a few months later, another place opens, a BBQ & Steakhouse, with burgers, and it's in an Argentine Style. The menu costs 14-28 per person average. Some times of the year it also does limited runs of seafood, smoked fish, catfish, and or lobster or crab, running 21-70 per person, if you want to feast. (Headmasters, targetmasters, Hexatron, Combiner collections, ETC).

Tomy/Takara could have given us a Masterpiece version 2 a start with a BANG! Powermaster Optimus Prime, (if they insisted on Convoy, again), and kami-damned Thunderwing.

...Or, how about a proper Ultra Magnus with the full set of trailer/armor, and a Masterpiece G1 Galvatron as the opposite, just like the original toy release in 86. They could have sold it with classic Marvel comic issue reprint, and gone further by advertised a graphic novel for G1. Oh yeah, why no ads for their publishing partners or digital comic downloads?

Follow up the leaders with Scourge & Cyclonus, Blitzwing, Astro-Train, Octane, then Soundwave. Oposite have Springer, Arcee, Hot Rod/Rodimus Convoy (improved from MP-09), Blurr, Perceptor, and then Blaster. Then continue also advertise future products such as the full Dinobots & Skylinx with Predaking - Predacon combiners.

Then start doing Prime/Convoy and Megatron again as well as characters from seasons 1 & 2, which fans will then be fully looking forward to purchasing again.

Fans want more variety. Youths and 20-somethings would likely see these toys and want to purchase them as well.

Takara putting more serious effort in to the Masterpiece line is great, but in a way its just like changing the recipe for the same pizza. Then adding a few more minor entree's.

I will say that Star Saber is THE very best thing I have seen Takara announce in a long time and a good sign that they actually, finally, do get it.

I really do not know how to explain it better. The 3rd party has demonstrated that this market does exist. Hasbro/Tomy is really playing catch-up and already has revisited Optimus/Convoy, the Seekers, and others well covered in other equivalent high end, licensed, products. Weather you see it as a fault from lack of market recognition, even if it's just from Hasbro & not Takara, these two partners could have capitalized on this opportunity to make more high end. The line has now existed since 2003, we are now in 2013, ten full years. They have had the time.