The Energon Pub

1984forever wrote:Amelie, if you want to talk toys...

I didn't buy Skids or Springer because I didn't like the IDW design. My son loves Devastation, but Hasbro didn't make enough of those G1 based characters that were featured in the game, so I couldn't buy them for him because they didn't make them. Money lost there as well. My son doesn't like the pack in comics. He can't trade them at school for Pokemon cards or Lego people because the other 8 year olds don't like them either. So no new little TF fans there.

The packaging says 8 and up, so the comics should appeal to 8 and up. Not just to adults who have witnessed every fight between Prime and Megatron for the last 30yrs, and now they want them to make love not war.

Firstly - Transformers toys are playtested with children. They're tested for play value and safety. If the group of carefully selected children don't like a toy - they're asked why and its sent back to the design room - Skids wasn't just released on a whim - it takes over a year for a toy to go from drawing-board to manufacture.

Secondly - We know Skids and Springer sold well. I'd argue strongly that you not liking Springer would put you in a very small minority of toy collectors. Hasbro can't please everyone, so they're going to go where the money is. Spinger, in fact, has been popular enough for him to be released twice by Takara and soon to be reissued through Platinum by Hasbro.

Thirdly - Pokemon Cards and Lego are more popular than Transformers. Trying to trade a free comic bundled with a toy at school is like trying to exchange your Gobots in the playground back in the day. Not happening.

Fourthly - Whilst the toys are aimed at 8 year olds - the comics are not. I personally don't see why they were included in the packs either (they're only on the USA editions I might add) other than purely as an added incentive for IDW comic collectors and toy collectors.

Fifthly - Hasbro didn't need to make enough of the Devastation toys. The combiners within were the Combiner Wars toys and the others were "accessible" in some form as follows.

- Bumblebee was clearly the Classics version.
- Megatron was his Combiner Wars self - who, at the time, was available on toy-shelves just like the combiners on display in the game.
- Sideswipe, Optimus Prime, Grimlock and Wheeljack were all effectively the Masterpiece toys.

Devastation wasn't as heavily marketed as War\Fall Of Cybertron and didn't have any tie-in figures. I wouldn't know the reason why for that, personally - maybe War\Fall toys didn't sell too well or maybe as I pointed out above that Hasbro felt there were options out there for the toys, even if they were expensive.

Using anecdotal evidence to make a statement about the entire health of the Transformers brand is asinine - as already stated - if using IDW designs was damaging the brand, then Hasbro would do something else, but as it stands Transformers is in a good place as a brand which is why they continue to support IDW fans with toys and homage.

misfire19d wrote:I disagree with Amelie. If the comics were good they wouldn't be given away for free. It's the opposite of a vote of confidence. The free comics are meant for people and kids who don't normally read comics to try them out with a free sample. The comics with toys are a failed exercise in marketing. If the comics were good after a year of free samples with figures then sales should be much higher.

Furthermore. The way Hasbro coopted (hijacked) the story to promote CW indicates a lack of concern for said story. CW was horrible. Enigma of Combination? Gimme a break. These guys tried writing a compelling story for the origin of combiner tech for years. With miserable results. Marvel's explanation was the simplest and the best. IDW overthought it with weak results.

Marvel's explanation, for me at least - was no better than IDW's. "I dreamt it up from a Matrix infused nightmare". Which then further down the road led to Optimus Prime dying in a battle over a computer game. I thought it was crap when I was 10 and I still think its crap now. This is one instance where the cartoon did it much better than the comic with Vector Sigma and even then the cartoon made zero attempt at an actual explanation as to how the process actually came about.

As I also stated - I think Hasbro putting the comics in with toys was an odd choice anyway. The comics aren't marketed at children (Hasbro's primary customer) and nearly all the adult collectors who liked the IDW stuff had the comic already. It was never going to create extra interest in sales - it was, at best, a free collectable.

Hasbro 'hijacking' the storyline is entirely related to what I said earlier - that good storytelling is an organic process borne from well thought out back-grounds and the writing process itself. Forcing anything into that kind of process will make it come out awkward - see Marvel above.

If Hasbro including a free comic is the opposite of a vote of confidence - then why base toy designs off IDW at all? Why waste good dollars making a toy from a comic that you have no confidence in - that would make no sense at all.

Using the enigma of combination was a great move as it helped link on with the thirteen primes that are heavily part of the mythos. Yes, I'll admit cw was a non event but it wasn't the fault of the tech of combination.

Amelie is right, IDW would of rebooted if sales were a problem. Hasbro would if stepped in. You want to save transformers when it doesn't need saving. Let me ask you this, what if one day when your son is older, he comes in with these IDW issues and says how much he loves them. Would you argue with him or listen and try to see them through his eyes

I already saw it through his eyes when he asked for CW Hound and Wheeljack. I would never buy those figures because I have the superior Universe and Generations versions. I bought them for him. So if Hasbro wants more of my money they better get to me thru my son. If my son liked IDW then fine, he likes a lot of stuff that I think is crap.

The main figure my son wanted from Devastation was Sideswipe because he loves to blow away Decepticons with his big honking shoulder cannon. I would have bought 2 Devastation Sideswipes. One for me and one for my son. MP Sideswipe is too hard for him to transform and IMO not really meant to be played with either.

And how does buying my son an after market classics Bumblebee help my pockets or Hasbros?

Trading a comic book for 1 Pokemon card or one Lego person seems like a fair deal to me. I would have traded a stack of Garbage Pail Kid cards for one Marvel TF years ago.

1984forever wrote:And how does buying my son an after market classics Bumblebee help my pockets or Hasbros?

Trading a comic book for 1 Pokemon card or one Lego person seems like a fair deal to me. I would have traded a stack of Garbage Pail Kid cards for one Marvel TF years ago.

It doesn't help Hasbro, but thats what the character model from the game is based off. They can't represent every single version of every single Transformer shown in every medium as a toy. That whole game was probably just to promote Devastator, Superion and Menasor and nothing else - the G1-centric designs were just there to lure in oldschool fans.

A free comic book is very unlikely to be worth any Pokemon card (which you had to pay for), especially when some Pokemon cards are worth lots money and a Lego kit without its appropriate Legoman always seems silly to me (did as a kid, too).

My advice is to look at the eBay price of whatever Pokemon card your son wanted, because its going to be worth more than the $0.00 the comic cost. Kids know it. I know it.

To most 8yr olds everything is free. My sons toys and Cards are all just as free as the pack-in comic. They trade for enjoyment, not money. Most 8yr olds are not completionists. The Legomen can go with any kit. However well Transformers may be doing, both the comics and toy sales could be better.

1984forever wrote:However well Transformers may be doing, both the comics and toy sales could be better.

Sales of anything could potentially be better, but as I've said already - if Hasbro or IDW thought going back to the original Transformers was the way to earn more money - they'd have done that by now. They have enough focus groups, market-researchers and feedback to find that out.

And I personally as a kid always knew the value of my TFs. Nothing was ever 'free'. Different strokes, different folks.

Anyway - I think I'm done with the thread now. Nothing to add from me.

That's ok because I'm saying that TF comics should be #1, and you're telling me that they should be comfortable behind Pokemon and Lego.

Obviously everyone thinks that going back to G1 will make the most money, which is why there's so many Knock offs of G1 floating around. IDW got the license and what's the first thing they did? They went back to G1 and called the first arc "Infiltration". Now people want to claim it's not G1 because mechs are holding hands and making goo goo eyes at each other while Rodimus is being drawn as a fembot from the waist down.

You've lost me, who's trying to claim it's not g1. You keep missing the point, if the brand was in trouble, hasbro would act. The brand is quite healthy actually.

The only person who thinks there is a problem is you. Just because hasbro doesn't work by your guidelines that would kill the franchise faster then the original g1...After all tf wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for beast wars

ZeroWolf wrote:You've lost me, who's trying to claim it's not g1. You keep missing the point, if the brand was in trouble, hasbro would act. The brand is quite healthy actually.

The only person who thinks there is a problem is you. Just because hasbro doesn't work by your guidelines that would kill the franchise faster then the original g1...After all tf wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for beast wars

And you don't understand that a whole lot of people besides me thought there was a problem that's why they stopped purchasing Transformers comics. You think that the titles are fine the way they are and there shouldn't be any kind of attempt to bring those tens of thousands of readers back.

Ok, got it.

Okay, I'm really amazed by how much your missing the point still, despite being told it numerous, numerous times. If IDW and Hasbro thought that was going to work...don't you think they would of done that already? No one goes into business to loose money but if hasbro themselves don't see a problem...Then there can't be a problem. It's been said many times in better thought out posts about why there was such a big drop off but you seem to not care for these, guess it diesbt sit well with your opinon, which has no basis in fact.

There's really not much left, if anything to say. What you propose is against the will of Hasbro, the owners of the franchise.

ZeroWolf wrote:if Hasbro themselves don't see a problem...Then there can't be a problem.

You're speaking of just this instance, correct? Because that certainly doesn't apply to everything in the franchise.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:if Hasbro themselves don't see a problem...Then there can't be a problem.

You're speaking of just this instance, correct? Because that certainly doesn't apply to everything in the franchise.

Yeah just the comics, anything else is open to debate.

Ok. The lack of knowledge of how licensing works is evident. IDW pays a licensing fee to Hasbro for the right to make Transformers comics. Hasbro gets the agreed amount whether IDW sells 1 or 1 million copies. So let's put the fairy tale about Hasbro won't allow itself to lose money to rest. They're getting paid.

Another myth is that businesses always make the right decisions. Boy is that ever wrong. There are thousands of declared bankruptcies every day.

Another example of how JR can't write a Transformers book. I challenge everyone reading this to count how many times there is a transformation in MTMTE #51. The latest book. How can anyone say they like a transformers comic book when there are no transformations? SPOILER Megatron can transform into a tank and drive out to meet Tarn but instead flies a silly space scooter. Ugh That may appeal to the immature but not me.

1984 put out some great ideas on how to improve the stories. I'm glad he started this thread. I kind of expected we would have to cut through the die hard IDW warriors. To those that like the books, fine. To those that don't, I'm with you.

misfire19d wrote:Ok. The lack of knowledge of how licensing works is evident. IDW pays a licensing fee to Hasbro for the right to make Transformers comics. Hasbro gets the agreed amount whether IDW sells 1 or 1 million copies. So let's put the fairy tale about Hasbro won't allow itself to lose money to rest. They're getting paid.

I already pointed out the licensing fee. IDW must be selling enough issues to pay the staff and the fee as I already stated. Hasbro are in artistic communication with IDW - not just financial - this is evidenced in the use of IDW design influences in the toys and this works both ways as Hasbro also give IDW direction as to what can\can't happen in their comic.

Money will also not be the sole interest Hasbro makes in a comic book. The comic has to be of a certain quality or its a poor representation of the brand and as a by-product - a poor representation of Hasbro itself. Therefore comic quality does matter to Hasbro. Case in point - at the end of G1, Marvel knew that Hasbro no longer cared (as they were cooling off Transformers by 89\90) when they sent a joke script (IIRC something about space penguins with machine guns killing everyone) and it got sent back, approved, unedited by Hasbro when previously they would've rejected it.

Licenses aren't simply a financial transaction and pretending they are is an overly simplistic look at how they operate - quality and how the brand is represented is also a factor. This is why I avoid Sega-branded goods like the plague, because its generally of inferior quality to an official Nintendo-branded product - because one company has higher standards than the other for licensed goods.

Amelie wrote:

misfire19d wrote:Ok. The lack of knowledge of how licensing works is evident. IDW pays a licensing fee to Hasbro for the right to make Transformers comics. Hasbro gets the agreed amount whether IDW sells 1 or 1 million copies. So let's put the fairy tale about Hasbro won't allow itself to lose money to rest. They're getting paid.

Case in point - at the end of G1, Marvel knew that Hasbro no longer cared (as they were cooling off Transformers by 89\90) when they sent a joke script (IIRC something about space penguins with machine guns killing everyone) and it got sent back, approved, unedited by Hasbro when previously they would've rejected it.

So Hasbro has already demonstrated a lack of concern for what is in the comics. This is the case now. I've stated earlier JR and JB have too much carte blanche. You're space penguin story proves my point. They've changed the comic to the point of being figuratively about space penguins. Penguins don't transform either.

misfire19d wrote:So Hasbro has already demonstrated a lack of concern for what is in the comics. This is the case now. I've stated earlier JR and JB have too much carte blanche. You're space penguin story proves my point. They've changed the comic to the point of being figuratively about space penguins. Penguins don't transform either.

They demonstrate such a lack of concern for what is in the comics that they openly use IDW designs as the basis for toys and are always looking to integrate Generations\CombinerWars\TitanWars into their comics. That makes perfect sense.

Comparing Transformers now to the state it was in by 1989 is laughable. Generation1 was dead and the brand effectively with it by then as it had no other avenues open. We wouldn't see a resurgent Transformers anything like its heyday until Beast Wars revived it some years later.

I understand that you don't like the comics - thats your personal taste. If they image that IDW was putting out was so contrary to what Hasbro want to be doing - then Hasbro would step in - they certainly wouldn't be displaying the new Titan Wars Chromedome with Twincast on his shoulder at Botcon, would they?

All the evidence - be it IDW integration into the toy lines and Hasbro's clear communication between IDW and themselves as a two-way collaboration points to Hasbro perceiving the comic as a success.

Please, as I said earlier - feel free to go to Change.Org and create petition to Hasbro and IDW and collect digital signatures and spread it around Transformers forums to see how popular your thoughts and ideas actually are around the Transformers community at large because as it stands you seem to just be two very, very vocal minorities.

Sorry amelie quick nitpick but twincast was blasters titanmaster, chromedome was posed with rewind

I didn't know that story about the penguins, but it doesn't sound that far away from what happened with the G2 comics when furman went with "gee-axe-us" as the villain name.

Amelie wrote:

misfire19d wrote:So Hasbro has already demonstrated a lack of concern for what is in the comics. This is the case now. I've stated earlier JR and JB have too much carte blanche. You're space penguin story proves my point. They've changed the comic to the point of being figuratively about space penguins. Penguins don't transform either.

They demonstrate such a lack of concern for what is in the comics that they openly use IDW designs as the basis for toys and are always looking to integrate Generations\CombinerWars\TitanWars into their comics. That makes perfect sense.

Comparing Transformers now to the state it was in by 1989 is laughable. Generation1 was dead and the brand effectively with it by then as it had no other avenues open. We wouldn't see a resurgent Transformers anything like its heyday until Beast Wars revived it some years later.

I understand that you don't like the comics - thats your personal taste. If they image that IDW was putting out was so contrary to what Hasbro want to be doing - then Hasbro would step in - they certainly wouldn't be displaying the new Titan Wars Chromedome with Twincast on his shoulder at Botcon, would they?

All the evidence - be it IDW integration into the toy lines and Hasbro's clear communication between IDW and themselves as a two-way collaboration points to Hasbro perceiving the comic as a success.

Please, as I said earlier - feel free to go to Change.Org and create petition to Hasbro and IDW and collect digital signatures and spread it around Transformers forums to see how popular your thoughts and ideas actually are around the Transformers community at large because as it stands you seem to just be two very, very vocal minorities.

I'm taking issue with the writing. Not the art.

I will not create a petition because I will discuss how to make the comics good again on this thread. There are other threads fawning over the comics. You should go there.

ZeroWolf wrote:Sorry amelie quick nitpick but twincast was blasters titanmaster, chromedome was posed with rewind

Rumble\Frenzy\Enemy\Twincast\Rewind\Rosalia\Whoever\Whatever-man

ZeroWolf wrote:Okay, I'm really amazed by how much your missing the point still, despite being told it numerous, numerous times. If IDW and Hasbro thought that was going to work...don't you think they would of done that already? No one goes into business to loose money but if hasbro themselves don't see a problem...Then there can't be a problem. It's been said many times in better thought out posts about why there was such a big drop off but you seem to not care for these, guess it diesbt sit well with your opinon, which has no basis in fact.

There's really not much left, if anything to say. What you propose is against the will of Hasbro, the owners of the franchise.

Misfire already explained that Hasbro won't lose money with IDW because they're getting paid a set amount. And we all know that Hasbro doesn't make all the right moves.

IDW knows they have a core Transformers fan base of a few thousand that will buy any Transformers title regardless of quality, so all they have to Keep doing is adding titles until it is no longer profitable to do so. Yes, there was a big drop off over the years for many reasons, and it will continue downwards because the books do not appeal to new readers.

So do you have any ideas on how to make a better Transformers comic?

1984forever wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:Okay, I'm really amazed by how much your missing the point still, despite being told it numerous, numerous times. If IDW and Hasbro thought that was going to work...don't you think they would of done that already? No one goes into business to loose money but if hasbro themselves don't see a problem...Then there can't be a problem. It's been said many times in better thought out posts about why there was such a big drop off but you seem to not care for these, guess it diesbt sit well with your opinon, which has no basis in fact.

There's really not much left, if anything to say. What you propose is against the will of Hasbro, the owners of the franchise.

Misfire already explained that Hasbro won't lose money with IDW because they're getting paid a set amount.

IDW knows they have a core Transformers fan base of a few thousand that will buy any Transformers title regardless of quality, so all they have to Keep doing is adding titles until it is no longer profitable to do so. Yes, there was a big drop off over the years for many reasons, and it will continue downwards because the books do not appeal to new readers.

So do you have any ideas on how to make a better Transformers comic?

More Transformations in combat sequences. There were no transformations in MTMTE #51. SPOILER After the DJD spotted ten on the hilltop there were no depictions of transformations into vehicle modes during their attack. They were all in robot form. They must have ran up the hill. I don't want to hear about transformations occuring off-panel.

Bring back the war. Megatron should become his old self again and utterly annihilate the field of flowers around his statue since they represent everyone he's killed. Erect a statue of Megatron sitting on a throne like Conan the Destroyer in place of the old statue. Fill the hollow planet with the corpses of his defeated enemies! Man, am I getting fired up!

Tarn Vs Soundwave. Master of Sound against an outlier who can manipulate his voice to detonate sparks.

Decepticons invade and subjugate a race of My Little Ponies!

You might want to look up a few posts to where amelie talks about that and destroys it.

As for better, well I'm not an official writer like Roberts and his ilk but my ideas would be looking forward and not backwards and continue the trend of incompatible all facets of the tf multiverse like the unicron trilogy, beast wars, aligned, the Japanese tf shows and the blockbusting live action movie series. I've got story ideas but they revolve around a cybertron with four factions (think of them like countries or city states) fighting for control and revenge for eons of abuse and slavery. It would follow the primus creation story as I find the qunits story takes away the specialness of tfs and I much prefer the better creation stories of prime.

The factions are Autobot, Decepticons, Predacons and Maximals. This is all I have so far mind. I haven't even began to figure out who is going to be the leaders. Oh apart from Predaking who is leader of the Predacons, a title passed down from the original Predacon combiner.

Okay, so counting myself, that's 3 people who want the war to come back. See? we're not that different after all.

And 2 votes to get the Action Masters out of MTMTE

[quote="ZeroWolf"]You might want to look up a few posts to where amelie talks about that and destroys it.

You should look up the posts where 1984 and myself destroys her posts as well.

Action Masters. Well done 1984. Notice how no one is refuting the lack of transformations.