The Energon Pub

I remember reading an article about how the starship captains on Star Trek are often cited as examples of leadership styles or used in theories of leadership. This got me thinking..what are some fictional examples of good leadership and the first that came to mind was Optimus Prime. Anyhow, what do you guys think? or is his style of leadership (if he does have one) unrealistic for the modern real world? Discuss.

Prime would risk everything for the greater good, he listens to what others say and does what he believes to be best even though others may not agree with his decision. He stands by his decisions and makes no excuses about it. These are traits of a good leader. Even though I am not exactly an Optimus fan I certainly can not fault his qualities at being a leader.

G1 optimus would make an ok leader. He makes alot of mistakes, like not posting guards on the OUTSIDE of the building you're protecting. He is noble and does the right thing, but really i think prime would be the President Gerald Ford of leaders

Moon Bug wrote:Prime would risk everything for the greater good, he listens to what others say and does what he believes to be best even though others may not agree with his decision. He stands by his decisions and makes no excuses about it. These are traits of a good leader. Even though I am not exactly an Optimus fan I certainly can not fault his qualities at being a leader.

If his many deaths are any indication...

Seriously though, the traits listed are what would comprise an ideal leader. Note *ideal*, meaning the chances of a person actually having those traits in real life are a million to one.

The question is whether he his a good leader. Even if he leads his men to his own death and possibly even his own, they follow him. If you are followed, you are a leader. He makes mistakes but this doesn't make him any less of a leader because he is still followed.

What about the fact that he would sacrifice the lives of his own troops for the sake of human life. In several instances he would tell the Autobots "don't endanger the humans" (despite grumblings from Ironhide or Cliffjumper) or "Bumblebee is a brave solider. This what he would want." Does that characterize him as a good leader to sacrifice is own? In some corners of the world, endangering one's own troops is not seen as favorable.

N.B.Keep in mind i am only talking about the Peter Cullen version of Optimus Prime (G1 and perhaps the movie version) in this thread, not the light weights.

Lousy_Autobot_Lover wrote:What about the fact that he would sacrifice the lives of his own troops for the sake of human life. In several instances he would tell the Autobots "don't endanger the humans" (despite grumblings from Ironhide or Cliffjumper) or "Bumblebee is a brave solider. This what he would want." Does that characterize him as a good leader to sacrifice is own? In some corners of the world, endangering one's own troops is not seen as favorable.

N.B.Keep in mind i am only talking about the Peter Cullen version of Optimus Prime (G1 and perhaps the movie version) in this thread, not the light weights.

This is a question whether Optimus Prime really is a good guy! Is Optimus Prime as much a force for good as he is made to seem? I do not see what exactly makes him the good guy other than we are told that he is. Are the Decepticons really evil? If a gun is turned on you would you retaliate! In the live action films, in my opinion Sector 7 seem more Evil than the 'cons. And I find the fact that he deserted Bumblebee to be unforgivable.

Moon Bug wrote:

Lousy_Autobot_Lover wrote:What about the fact that he would sacrifice the lives of his own troops for the sake of human life. In several instances he would tell the Autobots "don't endanger the humans" (despite grumblings from Ironhide or Cliffjumper) or "Bumblebee is a brave solider. This what he would want." Does that characterize him as a good leader to sacrifice is own? In some corners of the world, endangering one's own troops is not seen as favorable.

N.B.Keep in mind i am only talking about the Peter Cullen version of Optimus Prime (G1 and perhaps the movie version) in this thread, not the light weights.

This is a question whether Optimus Prime really is a good guy! Is Optimus Prime as much a force for good as he is made to seem? I do not see what exactly makes him the good guy other than we are told that he is. Are the Decepticons really evil? If a gun is turned on you would you retaliate! In the live action films, in my opinion Sector 7 seem more Evil than the 'cons. And I find the fact that he deserted Bumblebee to be unforgivable.

In the movie, the Decepticons wish to use the Allspark to build an army and conquer the galaxy. In G1 aminated, they wished to drain Earth dry, return to Cybertron and then conquer the galaxy.

YES, they are evil! And Prime had to get to the Allspark before the Decepticons, or else Armageddon on a galactic scale.

I think it depends on the continuity.

Bayverse, he might be a good leader for the Autobots, but...Jazz is insubordinate, when Bee is captured he's still kind of okay with humans, Bumblebee more or less deserts for Sam so... leader = keeping the troops together? Not so much. He's condescending to humans in '07, and in ROTF can't seem to stand up to the squishies, so that his mechs basically become tools of NEST.

The current IDW Prime? I'd have to say hellz no. He abandons his mechs in chaos without appointing a successor.

I think G1 is probably the best Leader Prime. That being said, he leaves me cold, like Galahad. I wouldn't follow him anywhere.

HK a 'con girl at heart, really.

I think he's a bit too selfless, considering he knows who are next in line if he ever bites it again. Perhaps when Magnus and Rodimus show even the slightest bit of leadership skills he can go rushing forth.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:In the movie, the Decepticons wish to use the Allspark to build an army and conquer the galaxy. In G1 aminated, they wished to drain Earth dry, return to Cybertron and then conquer the galaxy.

YES, they are evil! And Prime had to get to the Allspark before the Decepticons, or else Armageddon on a galactic scale.

Evil is just a matter of perception. Everyone views good and evil in different ways. Are the 'cons any more evil than the human race. If there was no food left on earth what would you do, let the whole human race starve to death if there is an abundant source within your grasp? Unless you are vegetarian then you actually kill to remain alive, even if this is not directly. And if I remember correctly G1 Megatron actually stops Earth from being destroyed, and potentially saves the universe in other continuties.

hellkitty wrote:I think G1 is probably the best Leader Prime.

I agree!

Moon Bug wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:In the movie, the Decepticons wish to use the Allspark to build an army and conquer the galaxy. In G1 aminated, they wished to drain Earth dry, return to Cybertron and then conquer the galaxy.

YES, they are evil! And Prime had to get to the Allspark before the Decepticons, or else Armageddon on a galactic scale.

Evil is just a matter of perception. Everyone views good and evil in different ways. Are the 'cons any more evil than the human race. If there was no food left on earth what would you do, let the whole human race starve to death if there is an abundant source within your grasp? Unless you are vegetarian then you actually kill to remain alive, even if this is not directly. And if I remember correctly G1 Megatron actually stops Earth from being destroyed, and potentially saves the universe in other continuties.

Bull. There is a right and a wrong in the universe. And there are alternatives to fighting. The Decepticons had methods for energy-gathering that didn't affect other species. And yes, I kill to remain alive.

One thing, though. The 'con's don't kill to remain alive. They kill because they can. G1 megs only stopped Earth from being destroyed when 1. he was on it and one of his schemes had gone arwy or 2. because destroying it would've been inconvenient to his schemes of galactic domination.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:In the movie, the Decepticons wish to use the Allspark to build an army and conquer the galaxy.

So we are told by the Autobots who are at war with the Decepticons. We do not know this is true.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Bull. There is a right and a wrong in the universe. And there are alternatives to fighting. The Decepticons had methods for energy-gathering that didn't affect other species. And yes, I kill to remain alive.

One thing, though. The 'con's don't kill to remain alive. They kill because they can. G1 megs only stopped Earth from being destroyed when 1. he was on it and one of his schemes had gone arwy or 2. because destroying it would've been inconvenient to his schemes of galactic domination.

Then you are a hypocrite if this is your belief. You can feed with out affecting sentient beings yet you still do. So you must be just as evil as any Decepticons. G1 Megatron saves earth because he requires the energon for himself and his troops on Cybertron. Gathering energy by other means in not as efficient and would not provide the required amount quick enough and when you realise how much energon they actually need per day as stated in G1 then you would realise this. Humankind would not just give it over. Plus we are basically the same to Decepticons as rats are to us. And with the way that humans cut down forests just for paper and wood destroying the homes of many animals then we are all hypocrites if we believe that Decepticons are evil without seeing things from their perspective.

Prime admits when he's made a mistake. That's a great quality. Sadly, not very realistic in this day and age methinks.

It all depends on the series, really.

G1: Too cartoonish to be realistic. (Yes, I realize it's a cartoon, no it's not a dig towards G1 as a whole. Prime was just too...unrealistic to be a real leader. A good hero for the kids, but not a wise choice as a leader.)

BW: Optimus Primal (I know, he's a descendant, not THE Prime, but go with it.) Optimus Primal was the best leader (so far in the timeline.) because he was a simple, everyman worker, just doing his job when he and his crew was forced to fight a battle they were seriously unprepared for. Yet, even with insurmountable odds, insubordinate crew members, and an opponent who clearly outmatched him in the beginning...he rose above it all, and lead his team into battle, and he never asked them to do anything he wouldn't do. He was compassionate when necessary, angry and stiff when needed, and always found a good balance somewhere in between. I've read on the various boards that not everyone agreed with his decision to terminate Transmutate, and in the beginning, I disagreed with him too, (I still do), but I realize why he said it, and that his train of thought had legitimacy.

BM: That's...a trainwreck, let's not even go THERE.

RID: Eh, not bad, a bit too much of a fanwank for the G1 crowd (I thought), didn't really seem to stand out. Not a bad character, not a great one. I'd have to see more of the show to really make a decision.

A/E/C Trilogy: Um...I didn't watch much of it (I didn't have cable or satellite those years) so I can't really weigh in.

Bayverse Optimus: *sighs* Almost, but not quite. In his first big screen outing, this version was pushy and rude in the beginning, let his soldier and the kid they were supposed to protect, get captured for God knows what, finally stood up and said "Ooh. We screwed up. Let's fix this mess!" and lopped a dude's head off, and then subsequently had his ass handed to him, mercilessly. (Not quite the Optimus I remember.)

In his second big screen outing, he was less pushy, but definitely had a temper. A temper which lead to moments usually reserved for a Freddy or Leatherface flick. (Definitely not the Optimus I remember.)

If you make a composite of him, using both movies, then possibly. But the problem is that he's shown as being erratic. One minute, he's willing to lie down and take brutality. The next, he's the one doling out the brutality and pulling a dude's face/head in half.

I mean, is he Bi-Polar? Is he trippin' on bad Energon? What is it? Because of all of the uneven train of thought moments, and the disproportionate response/tactics moments, I'd have to say no. He's cool, but not a good or effective leader.

So, on the whole, I'd say no, Optimus Prime is NOT a good leader. A great hero, has a lot of heart, means well, but he couldn't find his way out of a paper bag. With a sign that says "EXIT THIS WAY" and a flash light powered by a nuclear reactor.

Animated Optimus: Okay, now here we go. He's positive, he's upbeat, he tries his best in a really crappy situation, one he doesn't even deserve to be in. But, when the chips are down and you need him in a crunch, he's there. He wasn't the greatest when he started, but he tried, and he had a lot of heart. He put others before himself, always, and by the end of the series, he really did deserve to carry Magnus's hammer. He earned it.

But he alone, isn't enough to save Optimus on the whole, from being an incompetent leader.

And since Optimus Primal isn't Optimus Prime, we can't include him in the list of choices, but he's definitely worth a mention.

But I'm glad that Animated and Beast Wars got it right, I really am.

As I see it:

G1 Prime was the stereotypical "good guy". The show's creators tried to ram as many admirable "leader" qualities into Prime as possible. He made for a great character for kids to look up to. Comparing him to an actual military leader, he probably wouldn't have done so well. The creators of the show didn't allow for Prime to make decisions that would have to be made, had this been a military conflice.

In the movies they tried to make him more like a military leader while still having the positive noble qualities. I think he came of as more realistic as a character. He kind of looked down on humans, but respected them as a species. He also was not above being a soldier, as in ripping someones face off in battle.

G1 Prime(and almost every other Prime) was the leader neither because he wanted to nor because he had been chosen/"elected" or whatever by those who followed him.He was a bit like a king(he received the Matrix from Sentinel(?) and gave it to the one HE wanted(Ultra Magnus)without having to ask for anyone's opinion).So, although the 'Bots really respected him as a leader because he was a good one(IMO), they would have followed him even if he was the worst a**hole on Cybertron because they couldn't have done anything else.And don't forget that Prime(any Prime)is not just the Supreme Commander in a Bots army, he is responsible for almost every aspect of life on Cybertron, something like the President/Prime Minister of a country.
Isn't choosing-their-leader a right of all sentient beings Mr Prime????

Didicos wrote:G1 Prime(and almost every other Prime) was the leader neither because he wanted to nor because he had been chosen/"elected" or whatever by those who followed him.He was a bit like a king(he received the Matrix from Sentinel(?) and gave it to the one HE wanted(Ultra Magnus)without having to ask for anyone's opinion).So, although the 'Bots really respected him as a leader because he was a good one(IMO), they would have followed him even if he was the worst a**hole on Cybertron because they couldn't have done anything else.And don't forget that Prime(any Prime)is not just the Supreme Commander in a Bots army, he is responsible for almost every aspect of life on Cybertron, something like the President/Prime Minister of a country.
Isn't choosing-their-leader a right of all sentient beings Mr Prime????

Sort of along these lines, I read the original post so I know we're only supposed to discuss the Cullen Primes, but I think BM Primal would be my choice. Obviously he has his problems, but there is no alternative to him as the leader. Following Cheetor they all would have been dead in hours.
BM Primal gets too religious-flakey though for anybody's good, but as reluctant leader I think he's one of the best.
Movieverse PRime is probably the most realistic, temper and all. In reality, the Allspark is presumed destroyed along with Megatron, so if the humans want to try and push the Autobots around, I'd have said alright to the leaving earth plan. Otherwise, the Autobots take an imperialist role on earth of being 'protectors' who ultimately always have the chance to place the gunsights of peacekeeping on the human populace.
G1 Prime was the best in terms of character, but Movie Prime I think is the most realistic.

Moon Bug wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:In the movie, the Decepticons wish to use the Allspark to build an army and conquer the galaxy.

So we are told by the Autobots who are at war with the Decepticons. We do not know this is true.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Bull. There is a right and a wrong in the universe. And there are alternatives to fighting. The Decepticons had methods for energy-gathering that didn't affect other species. And yes, I kill to remain alive.

One thing, though. The 'con's don't kill to remain alive. They kill because they can. G1 megs only stopped Earth from being destroyed when 1. he was on it and one of his schemes had gone arwy or 2. because destroying it would've been inconvenient to his schemes of galactic domination.

Then you are a hypocrite if this is your belief. You can feed with out affecting sentient beings yet you still do. So you must be just as evil as any Decepticons. G1 Megatron saves earth because he requires the energon for himself and his troops on Cybertron. Gathering energy by other means in not as efficient and would not provide the required amount quick enough and when you realise how much energon they actually need per day as stated in G1 then you would realise this. Humankind would not just give it over. Plus we are basically the same to Decepticons as rats are to us. And with the way that humans cut down forests just for paper and wood destroying the homes of many animals then we are all hypocrites if we believe that Decepticons are evil without seeing things from their perspective.

A total shame the Decpticon's actions during the film paint them as pretty big a-holes, though. From the annihilation of Soccent to the battle in downtown Mission City. Nuke everything and watch the squishies squish!

And it makes me flawed. Nowhere near as much as the Decepticons, though. The Autobots are able to coexist with the local sapient denizens of Earth, while the 'cons rape and pillage.

And we're like rats to them? You mean those talking, tool-building rats who can, on occasion, best us at our own game?

yes i would definatlet say he is a realistic leader. Look how many little kids looked up too him and were heart broken to see him die. So yeah i stand by my opinion and he is a realistic leader.

Moon Bug wrote:

Lousy_Autobot_Lover wrote:What about the fact that he would sacrifice the lives of his own troops for the sake of human life. In several instances he would tell the Autobots "don't endanger the humans" (despite grumblings from Ironhide or Cliffjumper) or "Bumblebee is a brave solider. This what he would want." Does that characterize him as a good leader to sacrifice is own? In some corners of the world, endangering one's own troops is not seen as favorable.

N.B.Keep in mind i am only talking about the Peter Cullen version of Optimus Prime (G1 and perhaps the movie version) in this thread, not the light weights.

This is a question whether Optimus Prime really is a good guy! Is Optimus Prime as much a force for good as he is made to seem? I do not see what exactly makes him the good guy other than we are told that he is. Are the Decepticons really evil? If a gun is turned on you would you retaliate! In the live action films, in my opinion Sector 7 seem more Evil than the 'cons. And I find the fact that he deserted Bumblebee to be unforgivable.

You know what? I actually DONT think that the s are evil. I made a vid on YT about it (its till there, but its blocked in Germany cuz it had clips from War for Cybertron) But, I think both sides are fighting for a rightful cause. Besides, if I came to a planet with squisht small little life forms, Id want to kill them too so, I understand Megatron's logic. Besides, in almost all TF Universes, the Autobots are the ones taking away from the Decepticons, like in Animated, the Decepticons just wanted to protect the Allspark, but then the s came in and hid it, causing MOST of the war.

The Concept Of Optimus Prime is not applicable to real life. But Primes character has the traits we should all aim towards.. For me, he stands out as a symbol of Strength, Leadership, Relentlessness, and Decency.. Of all the fictional characters, hes the only "good guy" I ever truly routed for no matter what. Because I beleived he could win in any situation.. Still Do.. Im'a grown ass man lol. I think his concept is very similar to the role of Hulk Hogan's 80's character.. Cept i hated hogan at the time.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Moon Bug wrote:

Lousy_Autobot_Lover wrote:What about the fact that he would sacrifice the lives of his own troops for the sake of human life. In several instances he would tell the Autobots "don't endanger the humans" (despite grumblings from Ironhide or Cliffjumper) or "Bumblebee is a brave solider. This what he would want." Does that characterize him as a good leader to sacrifice is own? In some corners of the world, endangering one's own troops is not seen as favorable.

N.B.Keep in mind i am only talking about the Peter Cullen version of Optimus Prime (G1 and perhaps the movie version) in this thread, not the light weights.

This is a question whether Optimus Prime really is a good guy! Is Optimus Prime as much a force for good as he is made to seem? I do not see what exactly makes him the good guy other than we are told that he is. Are the Decepticons really evil? If a gun is turned on you would you retaliate! In the live action films, in my opinion Sector 7 seem more Evil than the 'cons. And I find the fact that he deserted Bumblebee to be unforgivable.

You know what? I actually DONT think that the s are evil. I made a vid on YT about it (its till there, but its blocked in Germany cuz it had clips from War for Cybertron) But, I think both sides are fighting for a rightful cause. Besides, if I came to a planet with squisht small little life forms, Id want to kill them too so, I understand Megatron's logic. Besides, in almost all TF Universes, the Autobots are the ones taking away from the Decepticons, like in Animated, the Decepticons just wanted to protect the Allspark, but then the s came in and hid it, causing MOST of the war.

Great Point.. In the Michael Bay movies I felt Prime was made to favor humans more then time should have allowed him to.. Maybe Prime isn't truly a good guy.. He LOOKS for fights and kills as violently as any decepticon.. But if there was a human being that compared to Prime, I'd have no problem following them anywhere..

As far as leaders go I like Animated Megatron best...
... but that's a totally different topic that I could go on and on about...

For Primes, I think Galaxy Force Optimus Prime is the best of them. I can't recall a single flaw with that guy, and he managed to save the universe from absolute destruction as well. The contrast between him and the horrible leadership of Galaxy Force Megatron only served to further highlight it. I say Galaxy Force rather than Cybertron because Galaxy Force is Cybertron without being retconed to fit in a Trilogy and so Galaxy Force Optimus Prime is NOT the same guy as from Armada or Energon.

Hmmm.... okay, I'll bite.

G1 Cartoon Prime was the one that it got it going, but he was just made to be too perfect, and the times he faulted in the cartoon was just to erroneous to be in character.

I do like the IDW Prime a lot, if only for the fact that he was a leader who strayed from ideals, but is trying to get back on target. Removing himself from leadership was a wise choice for him. Part of being a leader is being able to see the big picture, and realizing the consequences of your actions on said picture.

Optimus Primal from BW and even BM is perhaps, to me, the greatest cybertorian leader. Autobot032 nailed right on the head. I think he is one of the most realistic leaders in Transformers.

Animated Optimus, I like a lot. While he was idealist leader, he was also frank and selfless. He went from disgrace to legend. Even when he was at rock bottom (at the start of the series) he still kept his head on straight, and refused to mentally succumb to his disgraced status. That's character, and a rock solid base for leadership. For that, destiny rewarded him.