The Energon Pub

Jokey title aside, let's talk kibble. It is a debate that's been going on since time began (or internet began anyways) and I think it deserves it's own discussion thread. Where do you stand? I'll kick it off with my inspiration for this, a quote by our esteemed Cobotron from another thread:

Cobotron wrote:Would someone please explain to me where the "I hate back packs" way of thinking originated. Is it derivative of the Bayverse? Or the G1 cartoon?
I just don't get it. 98.6% of every Transformers toy I have handled/owned over the last 32 years has a pack pack of some kind. To me it just comes with the territory. I mean I guess I could think of a few that are over the top or cumbersome, but what exactly do those who dislike back packs expect?

I'm not trying to be an asshat. It's a criticism that never crossed my mind until I entered the fandom and heard it from others.

Discuss!

I'm of the mind that kibble is sonomimous with our beloved transforming robots. It's what makes them special and gives them character. Othrwise they'd just be another set of dime'a dozen anime robits.

But specifically to answer C-tron's queary, I think the hate stems from when there were some particularly bad offenders. Fellas who wear their entire alt mode on their backs ie: every Silverbolt ever. It started there, and it grew. Problem is, this is the internet and negative comments outweigh positives, and it grew to the point where a large group of people feel that all kibble should be obliterated. To each his own, but if you take that away then it's not a Transformer anymore in my opinion.

First, let's all agree on what is the exact definition of "kibble?" Is it just stuff that hangs off a bot in either mode, most likely robot mode? Or stuff that detaches during transformation with the option to reattach it once the change is made? Or, like Cobo said, just bulk on the body? I mean, you quoted him, and he was specifically asking about a back pack. But for example RoTF Jetfire has his entire robot body underneath the Blackbird when in plane mode. Does that not qualify as "kibble?" Or are we just talking about excessive parts in robot mode? I just need some guidelines for the debate, that's all.

I'm not the one who coined the term "kibble" but I think the answer is:

Rodimus Prime wrote:stuff that hangs off a bot in either mode, most likely robot mode

You mentioned partforming though, which I think is a different subject.

I'll take kibble over partsforming any day (within reason).

Some kibble, like wings hanging off a seeker, actually helps make the looks of the robit.

OK, now that I know exactly what we're talking about, I can contribute. As far as kibble goes, I don't mind it, as long as it's not egregious. Kibble is what it is. It the part of the alt mode that just has nowhere to go in robot mode, and it's something I just deal with. Sometimes I wish the engineering was a little better to accommodate the extra parts, but look at it this way: compare the G1 figures from 1986 to the TR figures of the same characters in 2016. The technology will get there eventually.

For me, acceptance of kibble also varies with the class size. On a smaller size figure, it's harder to deal with kibble, due to the lack of surface space on the figure itself. So figures from command, scout, and deluxe sizes (am I missing any other small guys?) I tolerate having back packs. Voyagers? Depends on the character the figure represents, and the effort put into it. If I can see that the engineers gave a good shot at trying to minimize the bulk of a figure, I have an easier time accepting it than if say they just slapped a cab on the back of a bot that transforms into a truck. For example, AoE Galvatron. When transforming, his cab flips straight back onto the robot's back, but then it folds down flat. To me that's pretty good engineering. The cab is still there, but it takes up a lot less space. When it comes to leader class figures, there is almost no excuse to have kibble. There's so much room to work with on a leader class figure that all extra parts should be able to condense and not protrude or make the figure top-heavy and unbalanced. Of the leader class figures I have owned, the only bad one I can think of is DoTM leader class Sentinel Prime. I love the look and detail of the figure, but his back pack is just horrendous and makes him very wobbly. All the other leader class figures I have owned so far have been pretty good with distributing excess bulk evenly. And going back to AoE Galvatron, his design and transformation was simple enough, I would have loved to see a leader class version of the figure to go with AoE leader Prime.

So, tl;dr, to me kibble is not a major issue as long as it's handled well, and accepting its presence also depends on the class size of the particular figure.

I gave my answer when using it as an allegory to Backpacks (which may or may not be part of this discussion) to that very same post by Cobo, so I'll just put it here.

Kurona wrote:It's like kibble (and arguably it IS kibble, but let's not split hairs for now). It's fine and arguably necessary in moderation, but it's when it goes into excess that it becomes a problem. Most of us like Prowl having door wings or Starscream proudly displaying his wings in Robot mode, right? Helps to make them good designs. But I doubt we'd like them that much if all the vehicle mode parts integrated into them were hanging off them; like how a lot of the lazier Beast Wars figures (especially in Neo) are just generic robots with animal parts hanging off them rather than actually using animal parts as part of their body.

It's all about moderation and how you use it

I like Jazz to have wings and shoulder wheels.

Kibble is fine so long as it add to the look and doesn't inhibit the Transformation - a Small Backpack like TR Voyagers have is no bother to me at all.

Cybertron Lugnutz or Beast Wars Neo Break was a bit to much though.

Yeah if I could erase any and all reference of the terms "backpacks" and "Kibble" when describing Transformers figures I would in a blink.

Both terms are simply stupid and annoying especially when heard in a video review. They may have well have used the term Kywjibo instead of Kibble.

You can find backpacks on most GI Joe figures but NOT on most Transformers. In the end this fan knows there will be no end in the usage of these lame terms when referring to Transformers...'nuff said!

It's not a problem when it's done right, but cybertron smokescreen from 2006...man those car sideskirts that are hanging in robot mode can limit the amount of poseability available on a otherwise nice figure.

Kibble is okay for me as long as it does not limit articulation.
For a recent example TLK Barricade, he has a huge backpack but his articulation is not hampered with it so it's good.

Kibble doesn't bother me so much so long as A: it looks good and B: it doesn't inhibit functionality. Good kibble, like Seeker wings, Datsun trio doors, and the like really add to the look of the figure and prevent it from just being a generic robot box man. Even backpacks don't bother me so long as they aren't excessive and aren't "messy".

Rogue-Primal wrote:It's not a problem when it's done right, but cybertron smokescreen from 2006...man those car sideskirts that are hanging in robot mode can limit the amount of poseability available on a otherwise nice figure.

I agree, but they did mold laser's inside of them, and the skirts are on ball joints so that kibble can be swiveled around to be hip guns. That has to count for something.

Duke of Luns wrote:

Rogue-Primal wrote:It's not a problem when it's done right, but cybertron smokescreen from 2006...man those car sideskirts that are hanging in robot mode can limit the amount of poseability available on a otherwise nice figure.

I agree, but they did mold laser's inside of them, and the skirts are on ball joints so that kibble can be swiveled around to be hip guns. That has to count for something.

Yeah you're probably right. But let's think more. What about beast wars kibble. Tramsmetal Optimus did things right by having use his backpack as guns on mounted rails.
The worst example from beast wars I've heard of is a tie between ironhide (magnaboss) and collectors club ultra magnus.

Issue created by people who have too much free time in their lives! It's either that or parts swapping. End.

I actually like the little bits that let you know the robot used to be a car or plane or whatever; they give a figure character and make it look less like a generic crowd-filler. Part of me thinks that the aversion to kibble might have started with the original cartoon show, where the animation models were simplified takes on the toys (for ease of animation, obviously). I can remember, as a kid, thinking that the doors hanging off of Sideswipe's arms were a little annoying. Now I find them endearing, and I kind of miss that the MP figure doesn't at least have the wheels on his shoulders.

Glarryg

Well I'm just flattered.

A question I asked out of annoyance of something I didn't understand was grounds for an entire thread of it's own? Guess I shoulda started a thread!

To me kibble is what makes Transformers different from all the other robot series out there. It's what defines them as them in robot mode. the Datson brothers have that hood as their chest, and when you see it you know exactly what your looking at. I fully agree that on some toys it is over the top, and likely a product of bad or novice engineering. Without digging too deep there are certainly many toys out there that don't handle their kibble well.

I said a long time ago, I think in the old Best Designed Transformers thread, that if you don't like wheels, doors, windshilds, head lights, and bumpers on your robots, then maybe Gundam is more for you.

In response to my backpack inquery:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:I've always felt complaints like that exist to help people justify not buying the figure because they can't afford it.

Well sometimes the truth hurts. In my time here I have heard over and over complaints of kibble, back packs, butt flaps, and the like. And unfortunately I kind of agree with Chuck. Tire Kickers are tiresome.

But what I really don't understand is when, what, and where has there ever been a precedence set where a Transformer TOY doesn't have some kind of kibble? (I'm talking about transforming toys, not Action Masters. )

I emphasize toy, because I think there is a common misunderstanding out there that what can be done in 2 dimensions can be done in 3. You can draw/CG model a robot who shows no sign of alt mode in that form, and make it magically transform, but in real time and space this has never been the case.

I guess that could be something to strive for as technology and engineering progress, but when Transformers stop looking like vehicles that cracked open, turned around, and stood up, will likely be the day I no longer like Transformers, and become a Gundam fan.

fenrir72 wrote::roll: Issue created by people who have too much free time in their lives! It's either that or parts swapping. End.

That's your opinion and I respectfully disagree. Kibble can ruin the enjoyment of a figure if it's unreasonable.

Rodimus Prime wrote:So figures from command, scout, and deluxe sizes (am I missing any other small guys?)

Legion?

In any case, I agree. Done right (movie Dropkick) it adds to the charm. Done wrong (I know I am going to get yelled at here as I hate the arm panels on Classics Optimus) it just breaks up the aesthetic.

In any case, engineering it away isn't always possible and eventually there will be something better. Look at 2007 Movie Prime and then ROTF Prime. That is one hell of a leap in such a small amount of time.

mick1122 wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:So figures from command, scout, and deluxe sizes (am I missing any other small guys?)

Legion?

In any case, I agree. Done right (movie Dropkick) it adds to the charm. Done wrong (I know I am going to get yelled at here as I hate the arm panels on Classics Optimus) it just breaks up the aesthetic.

In any case, engineering it away isn't always possible and eventually there will be something better. Look at 2007 Movie Prime and then ROTF Prime. That is one hell of a leap in such a small amount of time.

I love Classics Optimus, but the arm panels are certainly the worst part.

There's an example! I never batted an eye at Classics Prime's arm kib, until I met people here who saw it as bad. I do now see why those panels are not the greatest, but it doesn't stop that mold from remaining my favorite modern Optimus Prime toy.
Boy, I'm so forgiving of these toys.

Cobotron wrote:There's an example! I never batted an eye at Classics Prime's arm kib, until I met people here who saw it as bad. I do now see why those panels are not the greatest, but it doesn't stop that mold from remaining my favorite modern Optimus Prime toy.
Boy, I'm so forgiving of these toys.

For me it's not so much that they look awful on him, but more that I can imagine he would look so much better without them

Cobotron wrote:There's an example! I never batted an eye at Classics Prime's arm kib, until I met people here who saw it as bad. I do now see why those panels are not the greatest, but it doesn't stop that mold from remaining my favorite modern Optimus Prime toy.
Boy, I'm so forgiving of these toys.

Classics Prime.... good convo piece.

I think the same way as you Cobro. Back when I got him (what, 37 years ago now?) not only did I not give the the arms flaps a second though, but I didn't even know the term kibble. Since then, those flaps have bothered me, but only because a subsequent version had flaps that were super loose. And that's pretty much it. If kibble gets in the way of fun, then I'm annoyed. Otherwise I'm pretty easy.

shajaki wrote:

Cobotron wrote:There's an example! I never batted an eye at Classics Prime's arm kib, until I met people here who saw it as bad. I do now see why those panels are not the greatest, but it doesn't stop that mold from remaining my favorite modern Optimus Prime toy.
Boy, I'm so forgiving of these toys.

Classics Prime.... good convo piece.

I think the same way as you Cobro. Back when I got him (what, 37 years ago now?) not only did I not give the the arms flaps a second though, but I didn't even know the term kibble. Since then, those flaps have bothered me, but only because a subsequent version had flaps that were super loose. And that's pretty much it. If kibble gets in the way of fun, then I'm annoyed. Otherwise I'm pretty easy.

Maybe it's how the kibble is designed and integrated that makes a difference. Classics Bumblebee(with the jet ski), released at the exact same time, also has arm flaps, and they hang down as low in a similar fashion. However not only do his arm flaps peg in they sit pretty well parallel to his arm.

Prime's don't, as they sit off at a slight angle, and combined with looseness on certain versions(my AOE two pack seems fine) could bother some, I could see.

Oh yeah while I'm here, the recent Titans Return Broadside wing kibble in robot mode, hangs outwards loose and interferes with posing. It's also made of some thin plastic, I think it's annoying.

Duke of Luns wrote:

shajaki wrote:

Cobotron wrote:There's an example! I never batted an eye at Classics Prime's arm kib, until I met people here who saw it as bad. I do now see why those panels are not the greatest, but it doesn't stop that mold from remaining my favorite modern Optimus Prime toy.
Boy, I'm so forgiving of these toys.

Classics Prime.... good convo piece.

I think the same way as you Cobro. Back when I got him (what, 37 years ago now?) not only did I not give the the arms flaps a second though, but I didn't even know the term kibble. Since then, those flaps have bothered me, but only because a subsequent version had flaps that were super loose. And that's pretty much it. If kibble gets in the way of fun, then I'm annoyed. Otherwise I'm pretty easy.

Maybe it's how the kibble is designed and integrated that makes a difference. Classics Bumblebee(with the jet ski), released at the exact same time, also has arm flaps, and they hang down as low in a similar fashion. However not only do his arm flaps peg in they sit pretty well parallel to his arm.

Prime's don't, as they sit off at a slight angle, and combined with looseness on certain versions(my AOE two pack seems fine) could bother some, I could see.

Oh yeah while I'm here, the recent Titans Return Broadside wing kibble in robot mode, hangs outwards loose and interferes with posing. It's also made of some thin plastic, I think it's annoying.

Broady doesn't bug me. And I almost never consider wings to be kibble. Those and car doors are easily the best kind of kibble