The Energon Pub

Burn wrote:Sorry, but i'd rather waste a few weeks worth of pay on the genuine and have it as the pride of my collection, and not take a cheaper and easier way out.

Someone's bound to take offense to that comment, but you know what? Not my problem. I want genuine articles in my collection, it's what I take pride in.

You do of course realize that the equally snide counter argument is that if you're actually getting the very same product, you might as well take pride in your house, significant other, or children and use the remainder balance of $2,700 (The price of a Grand Max minus the reproduction Grand Max) to better improve your life or family.

I'm all for avoiding knock offs of readily available figures that end up not costing too much more for a vintage toy rather than a reproduction. There's enough G1 out there to make that argument and keep it in the realm of being reasonable. I'd even make that argument for Fortress Maximus.

But really, where Grand Max is concerned...there's so few of them out there, never released outside of Japan, and going for a price that is, let's be honest, completely irresponsible for all but the either independently wealthy or irresponsible, then yea, I'm going to take the reproduction and enjoy it without any concern over pride or authenticity. Essentially, that toy doesn't exist in a manner by which it is genuinely accessible to 99% of collectors out there. If a reproduction makes it more widely available, I'm all for it.

Other collector's hobbies have long standing traditions of reproductions being integrated and understood by their member. While I appreciate the resistance our hobby has, there has to be a line somewhere at which point personal philosophy is outweighed by simple math.

I see where burn is coming from,it's kind of like having a old steel bodied ford,mad props if you have it,but I think i'll put another payment to the morgage and just get the ko.

If I can't afford, then I don't buy it. It's that simple for me. I realise that others will most certaintly think differently, but that's how I take pride in my collection.

I just hope all these people that are going to shell out a few hundred dollars for these Max clones end up with something that is half decent and not a pile of crap the moment you lay him down (aka transform him)

thank's burn, I'll wait forsome one to take the dive before i do 800 is alot for two big ko's

I'm on the fence about this. I've been against KO's because of the fact that they've made the G1 market a mess. I used to enjoy hunting old G1 toys, but ever KO's starting flying around, I can't comfortably navigate the market anymore.

Now, I find a "copy" of my grail within sight. Now the problem that lies ahead as to it's quality. $300 is a hefty price tag and I would prefer that Takara announced something soon about a legit reissue. That would make me happy.

This figure is definitely going to be very contrroversial.

So many things go through my little mind when reading anything about KO's on the boards. I wouldn't even contemplate this if it weren't for the fact that it is about my beloved Transformers. First thing is PRICE. Now, I've been looking on the KOTOYS website, and I've noticed the price. $30 for some, and now $300 for Fort Max. If these are supposed to be KO's, then why is price set so high? This brings me to number 2 QUALITY. Paying $30 to $300 for a KO- we pay less for the actual Hasbro products and, for the most part, the quality is great. Why are we paying more for something of lesser quality? Number 3 the SCOUNDRELS As mentioned, now we have to worry about if what we get on ebay will be the authentic or a KO. I don't like that. I'm not good at noticing all the little details that lets me know if it's real or not. I know there are others out there that are the same way. Since I'm not good at noticing the details, this keeps me from even trying to buy alot of things on Ebay that I would like to get. All in all, I think KO's are doing more harm than good. Sure it's an alternative to paying the price for the authentic Fort Max, and it makes me contemplate buying it, but 300 is too much for a KO. I mean, it's something your getting that you have big chance of being crap when you get it in........

Grepicon wrote:
I know, god forbid someone actually get a chance to own of these for 1/5 the price it costs to find one with all the accessories.

The thing that is worse than the companies that make them and the people that buy them are the people who hoard rare figures and parts and drive the prices up for these items until real collectors cannot afford own the real thing.

If the HasTak made one and it cost a little more than the KO, I would buy it from them, but they don't care about me.

I look forward to any and all KO's!

I can pretty much guarantee you that there aren't people "hoarding" dino-cassettes and other super-rare Transformers. I own one dino-cassette, and I most certainly don't consider myself to be hoarding. I'm not trying to piss on anybody's socio-economic status, but just because you can't afford to buy a rare Transformer doesn't rationalize the existence of knock-offs. Also, it's just downright foolish. Why would you want something that you know is of inferior quality in your collection? And why would you ever spend $300 (in the case of this KO Fort Max) on something that isn't genuine? To each there own, but you'll never see a KO in my collection.

No to diss KO's but the quality of the recent Menasor KO is very nice. Peaugh says it's better than
n the official Bruticus reissue that Takara came out with. Plus this reissue has metal bodies for a giftset...that's a plus in my book.

KOs comes in two categories, the high end and low end. More or less, the Fortmax in the works will be among the high end products. So expect the prices to be high. Heck, with the total amount of plastics in Fortmax + factoring in the price of petro products..................you get what I mean.

So buying KO's ain't a problem so long as it is sold as is.............reproductions. I am not in the know but in analogy, take the classic Cobra of the late 60's. There are a lot of reproductions out there. Is the original manufacturer going after the repro makers? Again so long as it is sold as a repro then IMHO it's fine.

It also gives collectors the opportunity to own one ( I do hope the quality is at par with the original).

P.S. I do own an original/vintage USA Fortmax which has his started showing signs of age (especially in his radar dish part)by means of yellowing.

Owning one and playing with the guy is some of my greatest moments of childhood( okay I was in late highschool )splendor.

I'm happy that others will also be able to experience it.

Good lord! Don't even mention the official Bruticus Encore and Piranacon. The plastic quality was so sh*tty that it beggars my imagination how the reversed engineered KO of Menasor, Devastator far outshined them.

In fact, owing to personal experience, even back then during G2, the official Hasbro yellow and orange Devastator's plastic looked like it was THE K.O. I am like thinking WTF?!

XenoStryker wrote:I'm not trying to piss on anybody's socio-economic status, but just because you can't afford to buy a rare Transformer doesn't rationalize the existence of knock-offs. Also, it's just downright foolish. Why would you want something that you know is of inferior quality in your collection? And why would you ever spend $300 (in the case of this KO Fort Max) on something that isn't genuine?

I love Knock Off's, repros and aftermarket Transformers. And saying that you are not trying to piss on anyone's socio-economic status - and then posing an argument that is invalid is pretty prickish.

You: You can't afford a $1200 - $3000 Transformer, so why would you spend $300 to purchase a bootleg copy?

Me: Well, my pissed on poor socio-econonomic status can only afford that much. Duh.

You: Your poverty does not justify the existence of knock-offs.

Me: LOL, yeah it does, why pay $1000 when I can have a damn good copy for $300, herp derp.

You: Why would you want something that you know is of inferior quality in your collection?

Me: No one knows what the quality will be, it has not even been made yet. I want a Fortress Maxiumus in my collection, and if my poor,foolish self can only afford a copy of one of the most amazing transformers of all time, so be it. It will make me happy, and I will enjoy it.

I can't wait until they repro the Dino Cassettes, Please let me know which one you own, so I can army build them - place them in form of the letters "LOL" and make it my avatar!

This is ridiculous. I fully support Takara/Hasbro in their reissues because they own both the copyright and the trademark. The legality of these is a conflict of law issue, China and some other less reputable countries have very lax or non-existent IP rights. I agree with Burn, this helps no one. I am very glad I bought most of my vintage pieces in 2002 or earlier and did not have to worry about any of my Gestalts or Headmasters as KO's. I refuse to buy Cyclonus because of the rampant fraud by those selling him. I'm never going to be able to find some of my Fortress Maximus parts after this. Anyone who does in fact import these are helping fund an operation that is to the detriment of everyone involved. There is no entitlement to figures, they are toys, if you want something that is beyond your means, work for it. Now it will be more difficult if not impossible to tell if the figures you are purchasing are authentic.

Grepicon wrote:
I can't wait until they repro the Dino Cassettes, Please let me know which one you own, so I can army build them - place them in form of the letters "LOL" and make it my avatar!

I think I like you, new guy. Lol!

The $30 Seekers are actually pretty good. Maybe they shouldn't be priced as high as regular imports, but they are only slightly inferior to the official Seekers I have.

It's pretty easy to say "price is no justification" when that's pretty much why KOs exist in the first place. And not just "high quality" replicas, but all KOs. They are cheaper for people who can't afford the legit stuff.

As for them hurting the collecting fanbase and not being ethical ... 100% right. It's not ethical in the least to rip off something that doesn't belong to you. Also correct is that buying KOs might support shady industries (although the entire toy industry is likely pretty shady anyway, KO or no KO).

That said ... I don't care. As a consumer I'll buy what I wish to. Many see buying toys as a waste of money anyway, so I'll buy what pleases me whether it's legit, KO, or 3rd party.

I know, there are so many horrible KO Transformers that a thread dedicated to it looks like this:

instead-of-good-kos-let-s-talk-about-some-that-aren-t-worthwhile-t73501.php

8 posts and 4 of those posts are worthless.

While yet another thread praising KO Quality looks like this, Headmasters.

thoughts-on-the-reissue-ko-headmasters-t67206s80.php

I do not argue or debate based on feelings, if someone is going to state that MOST KO's are garbage - lets hear which ones and why. And be sure to post it in the thread that will assist the most members with simple searches.

Who will be the first to make a SHATTERED GLASS FORTRESS MAXIMUS???

Grepicon wrote:
Who will be the first to make a SHATTERED GLASS FORTRESS MAXIMUS???

You shut up! That is $400 I need to not spend! What colors would he be in though? Scorponok?

PETA colored green sald Maximus? uggh!

Kotoys has vastly improved their qulaity over the last year or so. I have faith in mike and his band of Ko designers that they will pull off the Ko max with flawless execution. They do regular video reviews now on their site with members posting their own videos. Hell Peaugh reviews their items on the daily damn near and he always sings their praise( i.e Ko menasor which I own and second the priase)

I look foward to the dino cassetes as well.. That Sig will be hilarious

Oh I hope the Ko max does come out well..i got alot riding on it

LiKwid wrote:Kotoys has vastly improved their qulaity over the last year or so. I have faith in mike and his band of Ko designers that they will pull off the Ko max with flawless execution. They do regular video reviews now on their site with members posting their own videos. Hell Peaugh reviews their items on the daily damn near and he always sings their praise( i.e Ko menasor which I own and second the priase)

I look foward to the dino cassetes as well.. That Sig will be hilarious

Oh I hope the Ko max does come out well..i got alot riding on it

Shoot me a link for that Menasor review man. I'm certain I'll get originals but I'd still like to check that out.

If you want to know the difference between the original Menasor from the KO

1.Check the chroming of the wheel rivets on Motormaster, it looks chipped in the middle. The original doesn't have that flaw. The molding in fact is neater than the Euro Classics version.

2.Check the copper colored wheel rivets on Dragstrip and the other cars, the circular patterns aren't quite centered compared to the originals.

3.Plastics feel a little light. Not glossy smooth but drab smooth in some areas. Overall, unless you are really familiar, you won't be able to tell the difference.

wow this really is a very hot topic!! If I can be honest with every one for a moment,this year i just brought a starsaber desaurus victory leo and a overlord. Thats just about 1200 dollars that i spent on these figures,not including numerous headmasters, targetmasters, powermasters,whirl and road buster ( i had to buy him twice since the first one came to me broken!!150 total)
And the one thing I can personally tell you is that yes, It does piss me off that there may be ko's that will come out and be one fourth the price of some of these things
that I brought this year. Another thing I would like to share with a lot of people on this site is that alot of the G1 quality stuff that we talk about being far superior to the ko stuff is well over twenty years old at this point,the quality is not the same from the wear and tear,and half the times picures do not reveal what shape the figure really is.I have gotten alot of things this year that i would not have gotten or, paid the price i paid for them. I feel that most g1 stuff is overpriced as it is, why just the other day I won a beast machine tankor drone off ebay for five dollers,look at the buy it now price of all the others,price gouging is crazy in out hobby!!!! I feel that if there was some way to tell the differance not as many people would get upset,something like the way all these new seekers have a different marking on there leg or what ever,but at the end of the day ko's are here to stay and we better just get used to it unless hasbro just reissues everything all over again,then we all win, unless you are me and paid top dollar for the suff i did

sorry double post

is that 300 for one, or the set of 3? they'll probably only cost $20 to make.

Paul Grant wrote:is that 300 for one, or the set of 3? they'll probably only cost $20 to make.

That's 300 american each.

Ok, please bare with me and allow me a few minutes on my soap box.

Wow, I think for the first time ever, I'm confused by the knock-off toy excitement. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against knock-off toys, especially good quality ones that could actually accept the challenge of standing next to the legit versions and not look out of place. I also understand that people's collections are different and that people have different standards. I'm good with all of that. Knock-offs are good for some people and not for others. Fine.

But I am utterly confused at the price point of this knock-off and that fact thats its actually generating excitement. I would think that it would be pushing the boundries of tolerance even for people who are pro knock-off.

$300 is alot of money for a fake anything. For that kind of money I would like to be getting something legit. OK, ok you can't get a legit Fort Max for $300. Well, fine but that still doesn't mean that $300 for a good fake is worth it. The only reason this KO is being priced at $300 is because the price of the original is so high that people rationalize to themselves that $300 for the same toy is worth it. And KOToys is taking advantage of that. Accept guess what, its not the same toy.

But here's two scenarios for you: #1 If Hasbro decides tomorrow to re-issue Fort Max, how much would they price it at? $300? More? Less? I'm betting less. Thats less money for a LEGIT re-issue. Scenario #2 Brand X comic book company decides to re-issue Action Comics #1, the very first appearance of Superman. A legit copy of this book actually sold once for a MILLION bucks. Thats $1,000,000! Comic book company x does a really good job on the re-issue. They use the same kind of paper and ink used back in 1938 and give the book an "aged" look to make it more legit. At the end of the day, it still doesn't cost the company that much to make each book but since the fake is a really good fake, how much could the company get away with charging for the book? Well since the legit one sells for a million certainly a good knock-off could go for...say 20-30 grand. Does that seem unreasonable? Anybody want to pay $30,000 for a fake comic book?

For all of the KO TF haters out there, this thread is a classic example of why the KO market is so big and never going away. Because "collectors" fool themselves into thinking that paying a rediculous price for a fake toy somehow replaces the much more expensive, legit original. Guess what, it doesn't. Your G1 collection will still be no more closer to completion by buying this KO. All you have is a rediculously over priced stand-in of the original. "Here's my G1 collection with KO Fortress Maximus." Sound good?

On the KOToys website, you can get the classics conehead seeker mold for $10 bucks plus shipping. This is a mold still being actively distributed by Hasbro. I got real versions of Thrust and Dirge at walmart for $11 each. I thought knockoffs were supposed to be cheaper than the original because they are off lesser quality and NOT the original. Yet these are almost the same price. Full price for a fake!? Only an idiot would do this and not even think twice about it.

Make no mistake about it, its the "collectors" out there that have shaped the KO market. Not the moms and dads out there looking for cheap toys for their kids. The collectors: those who would be smart enough NOT to spend $300 on a fake Rolex but would throw a party at the opportunity to spend 300 bucks on a fake toy. The term ripoff was created for a reason. Only "collectors" would walk straight into a ripoff and be excited about it.

End rant.