The Energon Pub

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Alice's purpose was to get info from Sam.

If you say so.

I think she was exhibit A in the complete unoriginality of the writers. I can almost hear them, "yeah, let's have a crazy-walking terminator just like in T2 but make it a chick." "YEah, a HOT chick!" "Yeah, a hot chick who skanks all over Shia!" And then they looked at each other and squealed "Upskirt shot!" And Bay saw that it was...good.

I'm not sure if she was supposed to be a miniature decepticon (like Frenzy etc) but with a really inexplicable alt mode (the comic book 'adaptation' at least had a pretty cool rationale for her name and her alt mode, but the movie just....(black hole of plot)) or some sort of half-assed take on Pretenders.

Oh, sorry. Thread's about Starscream and Megatron combining. Back to our regularly scheduled topic: Does anyone consider Screamer and BB Beast Wars as proper "combining"? They just hook up (sorry, that sounds...bad) but I don't seem to recall that they actually had a combined alt mode personality, you know how Devastator has one clear personality, not the mass personality of his components. Most of the proper 'combiners' combine to a unique personality, right?

Optimus doesn't, then, properly 'combine' with Jetfire. Nor, I guess, do Skids and Mudflap.

Or am I wrong?

HK, oh, tell me how wrong I am....

Rial Vestro wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:Spiderman 3 was horrible. Tobey Maguire is a bad Spidey/Peter Parker, not just a horrible bad guy. James Franco would have been a perfect Peter Parker, and Tobey would have fit Harry's role. RoTF was not nearly as bad as Spidey 3.

I don't think so Tim.

I do Frankie.

Who's Frankie?

"I don't think so Tim." was an Al Borland quote from Home Improvement. He'd say that line every time Tim Taylor (AKA Tim Allen) did or said something goofy and/or stupid.

I know who Tim Allen is, but I never watched Home Improvement. I just thought we were using random names.

I was mostly just commenting on the fact you seem to think Toby would of done better as Harry than as Peter and that is a most definite no. He was the worst possible bad guy ever as the so called "Evil" Peter Parker why in the world would you think he could do better as a character who is a villain all the time.

Toby should never play villains, ever, simple as that. He sucks at playing the bad guy.

Granted Harry isn't actully evil just missguided but the same could be said of Peter under the influance of Venom. In any case Harry was a villain to Spider-man and Toby can not play a good villain.

OK, if you say so. I don't care enough about Spider-man to go into this any further. I thought Tobey Maguire sucked as Peter Parker, James Franco could have and would have done a better job. Then they could have gotten someone else to play Harry. Tobey Maguire would have been detrimental to the franchise no matter what character he played.

hellkitty wrote: Optimus doesn't, then, properly 'combine' with Jetfire. Nor, I guess, do Skids and Mudflap.

Or am I wrong?

HK, oh, tell me how wrong I am....

Oh, you're soooooooooooo wrong!

In RoTF Prime is more like *upgraded* rather than *combined* as opposed to, say, Armada. In Armada, it was a clear-cut combination, and the new character was even given a name: Jet Convoy. In RoTF, Prime was still just Prime wearing a dead guy. OK, I brought this up in the OT, so I will correct myself. In RoTF, it wasn;t actual combination between Prime and Jetfire. But as I said, when this idea came to me, I was combining Armada Prime and Jetfire, and just happened to look at Armada Screamer and Megatron. Then I posted this, making comparisons, asking opinions, and making cannon/afterburner comments. Just for you kitty

Rodimus Prime wrote:In RoTF Prime is more like *upgraded* rather than *combined* as opposed to, say, Armada. In Armada, it was a clear-cut combination, and the new character was even given a name: Jet Convoy. In RoTF, Prime was still just Prime wearing a dead guy. OK, I brought this up in the OT, so I will correct myself. In RoTF, it wasn;t actual combination between Prime and Jetfire. But as I said, when this idea came to me, I was combining Armada Prime and Jetfire, and just happened to look at Armada Screamer and Megatron. Then I posted this, making comparisons, asking opinions, and making cannon/afterburner comments. Just for you kitty

As I suspected, you set me up.

That still leaves us with three, count 'em, three combining methods in one movie: There's the personality change--Devastator--the MOST, I'd argue, familiar combining; the just hangin' out together twincest combining (Skids/Mudflap and allegedly at one point The Arcees) that doesn't feature one overriding personality, which I think is the least familiar (but I speak for only my ignorant self); and then Optimus's cool new dead-guy jacket, over whose systems he can take control. (So he can fly).

Is this a bit much to anyone else? Did I get these right? Are these three different styles of combining more widely represented in the canon than I am currently remembering?

HK, and then there's just *combining*. (snicker)

hellkitty wrote:As I suspected, you set me up.

And so you catch on.

That still leaves us with three, count 'em, three combining methods in one movie: There's the personality change--Devastator--the MOST, I'd argue, familiar combining;

Yeah, that's common and understandable. When I brought this up this is what i was thinking of. 2 personalities merging into one. That's what happened with prime and Jetfire in Armada. Thus the question, would Megatron be the dominant personality? If he would, would it work with Starscream being totally subservient, and do *everything* Megatron says? (rawr)

the just hangin' out together twincest combining (Skids/Mudflap and allegedly at one point The Arcees) that doesn't feature one overriding personality, which I think is the least familiar (but I speak for only my ignorant self);

I doubt RoTF ever had Arcee shown in single bot mode. They showed 3 bikes and 3 different fembots during the final battle, where 2 of them got FUBAR. And Skids and Mudflap...well, if they weren't gangsta alien robots, I would compare them to the Ambiguously Gay Duo, because their combination pretty much consists of one plugging into the back end of the other and off they go. But this is kind of moot because after their *upgrade* they couldn't combine anymore. And yes, your self is ignorant. j/k don't kill me!!!

and then Optimus's cool new dead-guy jacket, over whose systems he can take control. (So he can fly).

Well, megatron doesn't really need Starscream for that in the movies. He already looke dlike he was part plane part tank in RoTF anyway. But a Megatron-Screamer combining (actual combining!) toy would be cool.

and then there's just *combining*. (snicker)

Gutter.

Rodimus Prime wrote:Yeah, that's common and understandable. When I brought this up this is what i was thinking of. 2 personalities merging into one. That's what happened with prime and Jetfire in Armada. Thus the question, would Megatron be the dominant personality? If he would, would it work with Starscream being totally subservient, and do *everything* Megatron says? (rawr)

Dude, did you just say 'rawr'?

If we go by ROTF rules, Screamer would be dead, so his personality wouldn't weigh in at all. Jetfire in ROTF didn't affect Prime's personality, did it?

Now, Armada style, Megatron would be in control. It's up to you if Starscream *likes* it that way.

I doubt RoTF ever had Arcee shown in single bot mode. They showed 3 bikes and 3 different fembots during the final battle, where 2 of them got FUBAR. And Skids and Mudflap...well, if they weren't gangsta alien robots, I would compare them to the Ambiguously Gay Duo, because their combination pretty much consists of one plugging into the back end of the other and off they go. But this is kind of moot because after their *upgrade* they couldn't combine anymore. And yes, your self is ignorant. j/k don't kill me!!!

I think the original script called for the Arcees to combine at some point, and there was some discussion on the Toys thread that the toys might be/have been planned to combine as well. But Bay hated the Arcees (he said that publicly somewhere--I can find link if anyone needs) so he cut them.

And I'd say that two bots turning into one ice cream truck is a combine. OF a stupid sort, yes. Minus the plugging. (Giggle).

Well, megatron doesn't really need Starscream for that in the movies. He already looke dlike he was part plane part tank in RoTF anyway. But a Megatron-Screamer combining (actual combining!) toy would be cool.

Which would then beg the question--why would Megatron want/need to combine with Starscream at all. You're right: he doesn't need the flight capability. And while Screamer's got some nifty chainguns, Megatron's weaponry seems higher grade. One of the benefits Prime got from the Jetfire Jacket was not only could he fly, he could use Jetfire's weapons. As one of the oldest Seekers, (another ROTF-tweaked term) I imagine the idea was that he'd have special Ancient Powers.

A combining toy WOULD be cool. And it would be payback for G1 where Megatron turned into a stupid *gun* that he needed someone else to fire. 'Bout time Megsy got to use Screamer. (Wow, that sounds 8 different kinds of wrong....)

HK, am I overthinking this?

I saw the toy of Skids and Mudflap in their Ice Cream truck combined mode at Wal Mart last week. I didn't realize that they actully looked like that in the movie. Every time I see pictures of them they're allways in their looks like Prius but not actully Prius modes.

I guess that's why that whole "upgrade" thing was refering to when you hear them talk in the trailers even though they're new characters and really what's the point of haveing the Ice Cream truck in the first place.

Normally combiners have combined ROBOT modes not alt modes. Makes it a little hard to function in vehicle mode if you have to rely on your partner to form your alt mode doesn't? I mean one of the benifits of haveing a vehicle mode other than disguise is that they're generally faster in vehicle mode just like it's faster for us to drive than walk. So if you need to make a quick get-a-way and you transform into half an ice cream truck, it doesn't really work, does it?

hellkitty wrote:Dude, did you just say 'rawr'?

Yes...*pulls cardigan over head* DON'T LOOK AT ME!!!

If we go by ROTF rules, Screamer would be dead, so his personality wouldn't weigh in at all. Jetfire in ROTF didn't affect Prime's personality, did it?

No.

Now, Armada style, Megatron would be in control. It's up to you if Starscream *likes* it that way.

He does.

A combining toy WOULD be cool. And it would be payback for G1 where Megatron turned into a stupid *gun* that he needed someone else to fire. 'Bout time Megsy got to use Screamer. (Wow, that sounds 8 different kinds of wrong....)

Yes. Megatron and Starscream combining would be cool. 8 different? List them, please.

Rial Vestro wrote:I saw the toy of Skids and Mudflap in their Ice Cream truck combined mode at Wal Mart last week. I didn't realize that they actully looked like that in the movie. Every time I see pictures of them they're allways in their looks like Prius but not actully Prius modes.

If you haven't seen the movie that's understandable.

So if you need to make a quick get-a-way and you transform into half an ice cream truck, it doesn't really work, does it?

No but it would be hilarious. They kinda did have a scene like that.

So... my thoughts on the whole what would Megatron gain from combineing with Starscream...

Well... Depending on continuity the "All Decepticons can fly" may not actully apply to Megatron. In Beast Wars Megatron, Dinobot, and Scorpinok, were not able to fly. Megatron was able to fly after his Transmetal upgrade but the others never gained the ability to fly. I'm spicifying them sence they were the only actual Predacons in the series who couldn't fly. All the other Predacons were reprogramed Maximal Protoforms, were able to fly, or were Tarantulas.

In RID, only 2 Decepticons were able to fly and 3 of the Predacons.

Armada, well you get the point, useually anyone with a flying alt mode is able to fly and some times characters who can't fly in alt mode can in robot mode.

Optimus Primal never needed an upgrade to fly, he allways was able to in robot mode.

So if for whatever reason Megatron lost the ability to fly he could use Starscream. Aside from the whole flight thing if Megatron is wearing Starscream as armor that gives him a little extra protection as Starscream would then be takeing a % of the damage delt to Megatron.

Or for a more likely pairing, what if Megatron combined with Skywarp in order to gain access to his teliporting ability? And while I've brought that up, the term "Transwarp" didn't really exsist till Beast Wars but I wander, is that where Skywarp got his power from? Did he invent or steal a personalized Transwarp drive?

I'm just going to make a few comments.

Rial Vestro wrote:The first Spider-man movie was really the only movie in the trilligy that I actully liked. The only major changes to the source material that were made in that Movie was that Spider-man was actully able to produce webs from his hands insted of building his trade marked web shooters and Green Goblin's costume was COMPLETLY different from the original.

Actually that wasnt the only "MAJOR" change from THE SOURCE MATERIAL.The biggest change was the presence of Mary Jane.

In Spider-man 2, it sucked because Doc Oct's personality was changed in order to fit the plot of the movie where he basically kills himself at the end to save everyone else.

We've been trew this before.The movie was much closer to "THE SOURCE MATERIAL" then it wasnt.

There's no way they should of been able to controll him unless they allready had their own AI in which case he wouldn't of needed to hook himself up to them in the first place.

We have also covered this.

The arms did indeed have an AI program.Octavius said as much in his dialog.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

In Spider-man 2, it sucked because Doc Oct's personality was changed in order to fit the plot of the movie where he basically kills himself at the end to save everyone else.

We've been trew this before.The movie was much closer to "THE SOURCE MATERIAL" then it wasnt.

There's no way they should of been able to controll him unless they allready had their own AI in which case he wouldn't of needed to hook himself up to them in the first place.

We have also covered this.

The arms did indeed have an AI program.Octavius said as much in his dialog.

Nope. Doc Oct's origin may of been correct but his personality wasn't. He does not talk to his tenticles.

Not the point. I said they allready had their own AI in which case he wouldn't of needed to hook himself up to them in the first place.

It's a loose loose situation, no matter how you look at it the concept of the tenticles haveing any ability to take over Doc Oct's mind simply doesn't make any sence.

Either he has complete controll over them or they can oppereate on their own without him. There is no in between that makes any sence.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

There's no way they should of been able to controll him unless they allready had their own AI in which case he wouldn't of needed to hook himself up to them in the first place.

We have also covered this.

The arms did indeed have an AI program.Octavius said as much in his dialog.

OK, I know how you guys are with each other, so I don't want to get into the middle of it. I just want to say that Doc Ock did say the arms had their own AI and that he needed to attach them to himself to control them. The problem occurred when the control chip was busted due to the experiment going haywire.

And RV, that is a very good question about Skywarp.

Rial Vestro wrote:Nope.

Yep.

Doc Oct's origin may of been correct but his personality wasn't. He does not talk to his tenticles.

Like I said....we HAVE been over this before.

Doc Ock has been known to talk to his arms and treat them like pets.

And I dont understand why you would even attempt to debate this when the source material is a comic and you dont read comics to begin with.

Not the point. I said they allready had their own AI in which case he wouldn't of needed to hook himself up to them in the first place.

And why wouldnt he???

Just because theres a level of "AI" in play does not mean there was no need for control over the tech.

It's a loose loose situation, no matter how you look at it the concept of the tenticles haveing any ability to take over Doc Oct's mind simply doesn't make any sence.

Either he has complete controll over them or they can oppereate on their own without him. There is no in between that makes any sence.

Nonsense.

The AI program was "self aware" and needed to be controlled.

for the record


Brock Lesner should have ben Eddie Brock/Venom.

just sayin...

ANd i always thought the bots got Optimus combiners because they always make the cons look stronger.

Was re-watching the G1 series DVD last nite, and I just realized that the Starscream + Megatron was already done in G1.

Remeber the scene when Megatron turns into gun alt mode and attached himself on the bottom of Starscream F-15 alt mode?

Name_Violation wrote:Brock Lesner should have ben Eddie Brock/Venom.

I can't picture a guy that big being a photographer. Maybe someone just a little smaller. Topher Grace was a miscast.

And Megatron being a gun on Starscream doesn't count. It's the same as the car brothers rolling out of Prime's trailer.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:And why wouldnt he???

Just because theres a level of "AI" in play does not mean there was no need for control over the tech.

Actully it does. AI = Artifical Inteligence. If they have a mind of their own there is no need of his mind to make them function. They would allready have a will of their own. It may be limited but if they are so limited that they can not opereate without him then how are they advance enough to take controll of him?

Again, no matter how you look at it, it makes no sence.

The AI program was "self aware" and needed to be controlled.

See abouve.

Going back on Topic... sort of...

I desided to look online and it took about 3 different web sites to watch the whole movie sence it seems I can't find the entire movie all in the same place but I watched it for free online. (best thing to do when you think a movie is going to be so bad it's not worth paying for) but after watching... it's actully not as bad as I thought it would be.

Yes granted there were alot of instances of "what the ****" but it was a major improvement over the first movie. One thing I gotta say though in regards to the Constructicons, it seems only one of them was killed before Devistator was formed. The others however were present in their individual robot modes WHILE Devistator was tearing apart the pyrimid. Devisator there for appears to be an individual character and is not actully formed by merging other Decepticons togeather as non of the vehicles that formed him ever transformed to individual bot modes which would allso exsplain why the toys are designed that way.

ANYWAY... How come no one ever mentioned before that Jetfire ripped out his own spark after saying "Optimus, take my parts and you shal have a power greater than you can imagine." Pluse he allso seems to be senial in his old age as he seeming desided to switch sides after hearing that the Decepticons were winning the war. "We're winning? Oh my, that'll never do, I must be on the looseing team." Not what he said but what I was thinking while watching that.

I have a bit of a problem with Starscream in the movie. His voice changed so he's a little more Starscreamish now but he never tried to take over as leader himself? He just announced to Megatron that the Fallen took over in his absence and then Megatron got pissed and 2 sec. later was bowing down to the Fallen. It allso seemed that Megatron, Soundwave, and The Fallen never transformed in "Transformers". I think I saw Megatron transform once but there was so much dust I couldn't tell for sure if or what he transformed into.

Over all, I actully liked it... and the first movie should of been done that way... well still could be better but what I mean is ROTF actully had a nice balance between the human and Transformers cast where as the first movie was focused on the humans way too damn much. So basically I'm just glad the movie is better than Armada and has improved sence 2007. Oh and I was amazed there were scenes where nothing blew up.

Rial Vestro wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:And why wouldnt he???

Just because theres a level of "AI" in play does not mean there was no need for control over the tech.

Actully it does. AI = Artifical Inteligence. If they have a mind of their own there is no need of his mind to make them function. They would allready have a will of their own. It may be limited but if they are so limited that they can not opereate without him then how are they advance enough to take controll of him?

Again, no matter how you look at it, it makes no sence.

The AI program was "self aware" and needed to be controlled.

See abouve.

the AI needed the human to direct it like an ant colony needs a queen to direct it, or how corporations need presidents and c.e.o.'s

also its based off a comic. don't read too much into it.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Name_Violation wrote:Brock Lesner should have ben Eddie Brock/Venom.

I can't picture a guy that big being a photographer. Maybe someone just a little smaller. Topher Grace was a miscast.

But Eddie Brock/Venom wasnt a photographer.He was a journalist.

Rial Vestro wrote:Actully it does.

Actually it doesnt.

AI = Artifical Inteligence.

Correct.

But Artificial Intelligence does not equal obedience.....or have you already forgotten our recent discussion on the first TF's given AI by the Quints and how they disobeyed???Or the many different examples from different fictions where AI's have been disobedient???

If they have a mind of their own there is no need of his mind to make them function.

He was "directing" their function not making them function.There is a difference.

They would already have a will of their own.

Which was "WHY" he had to control them.With out his control they were likely to do what it pleased....or nothing at all.

It may be limited but if they are so limited that they can not operate without him then how are they advance enough to take control of him?

The AI operated fine with out him, and that was the problem.The AI had a mind,a will or its own.

With out his control who knows what it may have done.

Again, no matter how you look at it, it makes no sence.

As I told you years ago.....your imagination is limited.

See abouve.

Why?????

To read your incorrect assumptions again????

ANYWAY... How come no one ever mentioned before that Jetfire ripped out his own spark after saying "Optimus, take my parts and you shal have a power greater than you can imagine." Pluse he allso seems to be senial in his old age as he seeming desided to switch sides after hearing that the Decepticons were winning the war. "We're winning? Oh my, that'll never do, I must be on the looseing team." Not what he said but what I was thinking while watching that.

I did mention he killed himself.

Over all, I actully liked it

I thought you might.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Name_Violation wrote:Brock Lesner should have ben Eddie Brock/Venom.

I can't picture a guy that big being a photographer. Maybe someone just a little smaller. Topher Grace was a miscast.

But Eddie Brock/Venom wasnt a photographer.He was a journalist.

I remember him being another photographer, being obsessed with taking photos of Spidey. But whatever.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Name_Violation wrote:Brock Lesner should have ben Eddie Brock/Venom.

I can't picture a guy that big being a photographer. Maybe someone just a little smaller. Topher Grace was a miscast.

But Eddie Brock/Venom wasnt a photographer.He was a journalist.

I remember him being another photographer, being obsessed with taking photos of Spidey. But whatever.

That how it was in Spiderman 3....but not how it was in the comics.

In the Comics Eddie was a reporter that was doing a series of special reports about a serial killer in NYC.Eddie reported that he knew and interviewed the killer for his reports and became famous.

But soon after Spiderman caught the real kiler and it was learned that the man Eddie had been interviewing was actually a compulsive confessor.This made eddie the laughingstock of the Newspaper world.

Eddie lost his Job,His home , his father disowned him and his wife left him.Eddieblamed it all on Spiderman.

And then he joined with the Symbiont.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

I remember him being another photographer, being obsessed with taking photos of Spidey. But whatever.

That how it was in Spiderman 3....but not how it was in the comics.

In the Comics Eddie was a reporter that was doing a series of special reports about a serial killer in NYC.Eddie reported that he knew and interviewed the killer for his reports and became famous.

But soon after Spiderman caught the real kiler and it was learned that the man Eddie had been interviewing was actually a compulsive confessor.This made eddie the laughingstock of the Newspaper world.

Eddie lost his Job,His home , his father disowned him and his wife left him.Eddieblamed it all on Spiderman.

And then he joined with the Symbiont.

I see. I knew I remembered it right from th movie. I think that's how it was in the cartoon as well.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:.Eddieblamed it all on Spiderman..

I blame *everything* on Spiderman.

Wait, what's this topic about? I thought we were still combining. Was thinking about this last night (in lieu of class prep)--if we're ROTF, I think Megsy is a triple already, isn't he? His toy suggests such--plane and tank mode (that give him those AWFUl ungainly feet he can barely walk with). For him to combine with Starscream...I still don't see what's in it for him. Unless there's a possibility he could use Starscream's added thruster powers (he's the fastest of the Seekers, traditionally, isn't he?) could move him superquick in tank mode or transform him into some sort of (pause to slobber) AC-130 ish Ginormous Airborne Artillery Piece.

HK, and they say *I* go off topic. Bah!