The Energon Pub

"I want you to know that no one had less to do with this award than Jesus," the erstwhile Suddenly Susan actress continued. "Suck it, Jesus, this award is my god now!"

One
I am not Christian.

Two
Shh. Do you know what I hear? Nothing. No footsteps up the stairs, no hovercraft out the window, no clickety-click of little spiders. Do you know why I can't hear any of those things, Danny? Because right now, the precogs can't see a thing.

This basically sums up the delicious fallibility of what is or isn't off limits. And this forum, right here and now, is the perfect stereotype of this. Seriously. Look over the threads. Every single one is basically a bunch angry athiests whose views are often exceedingly radical. Well beyond the Christians who post in their own defense. Christianity is the only religion is the only religion these people feel comfortable attacking. You'll never see them create a thread which specifically attacks Muslims. Never. But just look over the current thread list. How many go out of their way to direct their vitriol entirely at Christians?

Most.

Will Griffin lose her show for such "offensive remarks?" No. Does anyone here really care? No. Has the ACLU led the charge against the comedian? No. Do you see Christians around the world burning effigies of Griffin and calling for their God to smite her? No.

Bottom Line
I find this amusing as hell as it vindicates people opposite of people I truly despise. Totally awesome.

By the way, I actually found her quote above to be the only humorous thing she's ever said

/discuss

Ok, I dont get the quote from Two. Ace film, but, I'm missing something here.

Um, what counts as "exceedingly radical"?

I would suspect that most Atheists on here debate about Christianity here and not Muslims or other religions, because there are actually Christians on here to debate with.

If that quote had been made in reference to a different religion then yes I guess there would have been trouble, both for her and the staion,especially if she wasnt in said religion. But so what? Atheists dont go round burning effigies of people who say science is wrong about things either you know.

And yes, it was a rather amusing quote

lkavadas wrote: Seriously. Look over the threads. Every single one is basically a bunch angry athiests whose views are often exceedingly radical. Well beyond the Christians who post in their own defense. Christianity is the only religion is the only religion these people feel comfortable attacking. You'll never see them create a thread which specifically attacks Muslims. Never. But just look over the current thread list. How many go out of their way to direct their vitriol entirely at Christians?

agreed. its so easy for an atheist like me to jump on the tail end of a topic full of other atheists saying why they think they are right. i totally see your point here.

I think the reason its mainly vs christians is, simply, because of the sheer amount of christians. most of the people on here that get involved with the debates appear to be christian from what ive seen. or at least call themselves christian, or liken themselves to one.

a lot of the threads end up sounding kinda the same though. there are many guilty parties who invariably, not always blatantly, end up nudging the thread down the same old path.

sorry if i'm off topic. i dont actually understand the rest of your post. what are you really trying to say? for the dummies like me please...

lkavadas wrote:This basically sums up the delicious fallibility of what is or isn't off limits. And this forum, right here and now, is the perfect stereotype of this. Seriously. Look over the threads. Every single one is basically a bunch angry athiests whose views are often exceedingly radical. Well beyond the Christians who post in their own defense. Christianity is the only religion is the only religion these people feel comfortable attacking. You'll never see them create a thread which specifically attacks Muslims. Never. But just look over the current thread list. How many go out of their way to direct their vitriol entirely at Christians?

Because it's all driven by hatred, and we're the easiest targets.

You don't see them attacking Buddhists because they're peaceful and stay off to themselves.

You don't see them attacking Muslims because Muslims (radicals, let me clarify) hate Christians and are willing to kill them (even if it means others must die in the process. They called it a Jihad, which means Holy War.)

You don't see them attacking the Jewish, or converted followers of Judaism because the Jewish generally keep to themselves much like the Buddhists. (But not all. Some are militant. But not even for their religion, just to shut up Christians.)

We're attacked because we wear our hearts on our sleeves, we're willing to stand up and speak out, we're willing to face the crowds and fight back, we're willing to put ourselves in front of the firing squad to defend what we believe in.

Sometimes, some of us say the wrong things, which fuels an Atheist's fire even more, but it's not fair to the Christians who haven't done a single thing to anyone:

The little old grandmother rocking in her chair, watching the sunset, quietly on her porch.

The little boy or girl who just took communion, and hasn't harmed a fly. (They're KIDS!)

Etc...

Yet those people have to hear how our God is considered hateful, evil, etc. You mock him, you mock us. You slap all of us in the face, and are happy to do it, because you have the freedom of speech behind you, and you like to watch us squirm.

You've done that to that defenseless old grandmother sitting on her porch, minding her own business. You've done that to the little child who just took communion, or was baptized.

Why? Because it brings you joy. People are celebrating the death of Jerry Falwell. CELEBRATING IT! I was no fan of the man, but I didn't hate him. I'm not going to wish for his soul to end up in Hell.

And when we bring up instances like this, people say "Oh it doesn't affect that grandmother, or the kid. If it does, then they need to get their noses out of our business. We have every right to be here!" and basically they consider those people who've done nothing wrong...collateral damage.

What's sad is, the Atheists are fighting a Holy War of their own. They're doing exactly what they don't want to. By attacking us, by showing us and God hatred...they're further giving credence to his existence. If something doesn't exist...do you waste the time attacking it? Do you hate it? Of course not...because it's not there. It'd be a waste of time, and your health. Yet, the Atheists carry on "the good fight" and they're angry with God, angry with the thought of his existence and that anyone would even believe in him.

They can't win with me. They either believe he doesn't exist and stick with it, and carry on with their lives and let us live in peace, or they do believe in him, but have so much hatred (which is the more likely case...I mean look at the anger and disgust that's aimed at us) that they can't stand it, so it's better to mock and blaspheme and tear us down because they know they can't fight God face to face. So they'll do what a coward would...they attack God's children.

That's why Atheists do it. Because they can. "To thine own self be true, screw all others." should be their motto.

And don't even talk to me about Atheists and the good they do for others. It's overshadowed by their hatred for their fellow man. Oh sure, some Atheists are completely harmless and say nothing at all (and that's fine, they don't rub it in my face, I don't rub it in their's.) but most of them are militant and willing to become viciously evil.

I should know, I went to school with one. He was one of my best friends and he said out of respect for me, we wouldn't discuss the issue, but he showed me other Atheists who were so angry, that they were willing to go to physical extremes to fight against Christians and God. (And yes. Some Christians are willing to take to physical violence as well, and no I don't agree with or condone it.)

But here's a question...Atheists claim they don't believe in God, and they don't respect Christian opinions...so...why do they get married in Churches? (and yes, I've heard of Atheists having wedding ceremonies in a Church.)

Obviously the Church means something, otherwise they'd have just gone to the Justice Of The Peace. I mean, in either venue, you end up with the same result. You're legally married to your mate. So, seriously...why?

I've never been able to get a straight answer on that one. The only one I ever got was "Well we want the fairytale too." and I said "What about a beautiful ceremony in a nice park, or hilltop? You see it in movies all the time. People use park gazebos as well." They come back with "Oh, so I'm not welcome in your Church?" and I say "No. You're not. Not if you don't believe, and you continue not to. You're just slapping us and God in the face, and you're enjoying it. If you were coming to find out whether or not you really could find God, then yes. I'd welcome you into any Church, with open arms. Even if you don't find what you're looking for, at least you kept an open mind and it just didn't work out. I can't fault you for that." A moment of silence and I got "What if it was the slap in the face thing? What would you do? Better yet, what could you do? You'd have to just swallow it and wallow in self pity. That's life. Deal with it."

So tell me...other than a slap in the face, why get married in a Church?

ummm... wow.

we dont 'mind our own business' becuase unfortunately religious opinion affects everyone elses lives too. christians dont 'mind their own business'. in the same respect.

only difference is, christians have been not minding their own business for a couple thousand years. relatively speaking, atheists have been doing that for like.. one minute.

"We're attacked because we wear our hearts on our sleeves, we're willing to stand up and speak out, we're willing to face the crowds and fight back, we're willing to put ourselves in front of the firing squad to defend what we believe in." Thats fine, go you, but you do realise that Christians outnumber Atheists, aint 70% of the USA Christian, and about 11% Athiest? I think you may have the crowd thing the wrong way round. Atheists in a Holy War, now that would be a sight.

Anyway, that getting Married in Churches annoyes me too, I know Athiests who have done it, and I gotta say I dont understand it. When I asked them about it, they usually said its because they wanted a "beautiful cerimony" or "Its traditional" or words to that effect. There are plenty of beautiful places which arnt Churches to get married in, which can be far more personal as well. Correct me if im wrong, but you can get married pretty much anywhere now right? Why not have the cerimony at your home, or say a beautiful lake where you proposed?

1. I am not an atheist. To think there is no God is no different than to think there is one. It's all a matter of faith. I am open to the idea that maybe God is real. I have strong doubts, but I don't think for sure He isn't real. Notice I still capitalise He. I do have at least one bone of respect in my body.

2. Christians are attacked because they are seen as a threat by atheists. They are pushing for laws that have, in atheists' eyes, arbitrary reasons, and yet they still affect their lives. Small things like "In God we trust", and large things like overturning Roe vs Wade, though I can see non-religious arguements for that one, but that brings me back to my point. It's always the religious people who are so against abortion.

Christianity is too much of a prescence in this country because it is affecting aspects of everybody's lives. That is why they are attacked. If there was a huge Jewish movement to outlaw milk products for five hours after eathing meat, then I'd be complaining about that too. What about if there was such a huge Jewish population that laws started getting made requiring circumcision? I'd be very angry.

What if there were so many Wiccans in the government that it said "Blessed Be" on our money? I'd want to scream. It's bad enough having to look at Jackson everytime I go to the ATM.

That's why it's attacked.


3. I've never heard of Atheists getting married in churches. But I have to say I find it a stupid idea.

A mountaintop is the first place I'd think of. The only time I can see ever getting married in a church would be if my wife was religious, or if the church was an old cathedral or something that had some kind of awesome historical significance, but on that note there are many other places.

Discuss, eh? Alright.

This comment will be removed from the broadcast version of the show. Nobody watching on television will be able to see her comments. This comes after The Catholic League complained.

This says to me that religious views are not allowed to be criticized while views opposing religion are.

My religion is mine alone, however, my views are outspoken as many of you have seen.

I got married in a Civil Ceremony in Edinburgh Scotland. My wife is Scots-Irish and I'm a mutt, but I called on a long line of Scottish so I could wear a Kilt. It was great fun.

However, if we would have been married here in the states, I would have got married in the church that my dad used to preach in. That's right, I'm a preacher's kid and what they say is true. "I'm either as perfect as they think or even worse than they fear! - Olde Drewish Saying"

I would not have got married in there for religious reasons,. I would have been married in there to pay respect to my father. I'm sure that many Atheists get married in a church for similar reasons. It's always better to have everyone happy at a wedding. Unhappy people make unhappy weddings.

The rest of what was said seems mostly just a rant.

Of course X-tains feel like they are getting attacks. In a way they are. Many of the laws that were written and enacted only had the X-tain point of view. However, as a society, they are archaic. A society should be run without any reference to God, so the laws benefit All the people in the society. But that's a whole different point and this thread is already whacked out, so I won't go there.

However, if the laws were made with a Jewish Belief of Buddhist belief system, they would be changed too.

I agree that many of the threads here are going off topic.

Just keep in mind that this is a Transformers board. That means Science Fiction. Many people who like science fiction consider organized religion as Science Fiction. If your were on a Republican Board, you would get different posts. If you were on a Democratic board, you would get different posts.

You just have to keep that in mind.

Also, most of us are good natured people. At least that's what I've seen so far. We all can't agree on the same things, that would be boring. We have our own opinions and relish the chance to be able to voice them in a free way.

No one should take any offence to these thoughts.

Criticism of Christianity is more accepted in the West than criticism of other religions because the West has a history of Christianity. It's what we're used to. We know the religion. It's still around us, too. Christian traditions have had a far larger impact on my life than Islamic traditions, for example, and I live in a very secularised society.

@Autobot032: I like how you criticise atheists for tarring all Christians with the same brush and then do the exact same thing.

That's true. We celebrate X-mas and Easter. But no one has this weekend off for the Jewish New Year. I've never had Ramadon off either.

Christian beliefs is the most wildly practiced belief in America. They feel attacked because they are in the spotlight. If they weren't in the spotlight, they would complain about being attacked and dismissed. It's a catch 22.

For the record, I always ask my family to refrain from X-mas, but I always loose out. I love my family and enjoy getting together. So if it was for X-mas or Jewish New Year. I would still attend. Family is important.

Kjell wrote:@Autobot032: I like how you criticise atheists for tarring all Christians with the same brush and then do the exact same thing.

It's irritating, isn't it? The same thing happens all the time. It's about time they had a slight dose of their own medicine.

I shouldn't have to suffer because of the words of those who came before me.

And yes, Christians *are* attacked. And it doesn't have to be done publicly. Believe me...I've had plenty of attacks through IM and PM...enough to last me a life time. (And no, I'm not talking about anyone in this thread, let me clarify that.) So to say Christians aren't attacked, is ridiculous.

Even the O.P. noticed the trend of anti-Christian Atheist postings.

Aren't we allowed to be sick of the attacks? Aren't we entitled to a moment of peace, ourselves?

Not all Christians are alike, not all Atheists are alike, and now that you've seen me paint them all the same brush, hopefully you feel a little bit of what I feel, so you can understand. I'm so sick and tired of being held accountable for what others say.

DJDrew&ScoobyDoo wrote:I would not have got married in there for religious reasons,. I would have been married in there to pay respect to my father. I'm sure that many Atheists get married in a church for similar reasons. It's always better to have everyone happy at a wedding. Unhappy people make unhappy weddings.

Well I'm glad you didn't get married in a Church then. It's God's house of worship, your father just officiates it. I understand why you'd want to honor and respect his wishes, and the wedding should be happy for you, not those around you. (I've never understood why people chose to appease those around them...it's *their* wedding day, no one else's.)

If you're not getting married there for religious reasons, please don't use a house of worship like a civil ceremony flop house. (This was my last statement. I'll leave it up to show how much of an idiot I am. Clarity goes a long way....)

EDIT: It literally just dawned on me...my very last statement looks as though I'm aiming that at you DJDrew. I wasn't. I apologize for that. I was aiming that at everyone who would use a Church, in such a manner. That was not aimed at you. I'm going to correct that right now. So, without further ado....

If you're not getting married there for religious reasons, please don't use a house of worship for your civil ceremony. Don't treat a house of worship like a Las Vegas wedding chapel. ("Billions Served!") It's not something to be taken lightly, and it's disrespectful to us and to God. Even if you don't believe in God, the least you could do is respect us. (At least those of us who aren't militant and truly haven't bothered anyone. And yes, those Christians do exist.) I mean, we don't come to your places or use services you consider sacred and parade around and say "Ooh. Lookit what I did." (yes, some Christians would, I freely admit there are some Christians with really disgusting tactics.)

I think the reason christians get attacked is, for one thing, like a few have stated before, it is a religion in "The Limelight" in America. These christian beliefs are forced on people's lives here in this country(liquor laws, stores being closed on sunday, and the blocking of stem-cell research by none other than a president). I saw some idiot on CNN the other day, going on about how christians should'nt practice Yoga because, it opens them up spiritually to demons and sh*t like that. If thats not asking to be ridiculed, i don't know what is. I would'nt say all christians are to blame for the things a few fundamentalist idiots say, but you guy's just get lumped into the category. You probably should'nt take it so personally.

And besides all this, isn't Kathy Griffin Jewish? That would explain Jesus not having anything to do with her award. And even besides that, she's a comedian. Everyone gets up there and accepts an award and thanks Jesus and God and whoever else, why can't she be funny and say the opposite? If one subject is off limits to comedians, then soon, every subject will be, and there will be no more comedy.

Duo Prime wrote:I think the reason christians get attacked is, for one thing, like a few have stated before, it is a religion in "The Limelight" in America. These christian beliefs are forced on people's lives here in this country(liquor laws, stores being closed on sunday, and the blocking of stem-cell research by none other than a president). I saw some idiot on CNN the other day, going on about how christians should'nt practice Yoga because, it opens them up spiritually to demons and sh*t like that. If thats not asking to be ridiculed, i don't know what is. I would'nt say all christians are to blame for the things a few fundamentalist idiots say, but you guy's just get lumped into the category. You probably should'nt take it so personally.

And besides all this, isn't Kathy Griffin Jewish? That would explain Jesus not having anything to do with her award. And even besides that, she's a comedian. Everyone gets up there and accepts an award and thanks Jesus and God and whoever else, why can't she be funny and say the opposite? If one subject is off limits to comedians, then soon, every subject will be, and there will be no more comedy.

Actually, Griffin is an Irish name. At least according to:

Wikipedia wrote:As a surname

Main article: Griffin (surname)

"Griffin" occurs as a surname in English-speaking countries. It has its origins as an anglicised form of the Irish "Ó Gríobhtha" and "Ó Griffín" or (especially in Wales) as a variant of "Griffith" and similar names. This shift is reinforced where the family has taken canting arms charged with a griffin.

"Griffin" (and variants in other languages) may also have been adopted as a surname by other families who used arms charged with a griffin or a griffin's head (just as the House of Plantagenet took its name from the badge of a sprig of broom or planta genista). This is ostensibly the origin of the Swedish surname "Grip" (see main article).

(No this has no bearing on her personal stance or beliefs. Just trying to clear up a name issue. (Which now explains a lot of why my girlfriend is the way she is. Woo...)

As for Kathy Griffin herself...

Wikipedia wrote:Biography

Griffin was born Kathleen Mary Griffin in the Chicago suburb of Oak Park, Illinois, and raised there and in nearby Forest Park.[1] She is a 1978 graduate of Oak Park and River Forest High School.

Griffin married Washington, D.C. native Matt Moline in February 2001. They divorced in May 2006.

Griffin is purportedly dating Apple Computer co-founder Steve Wozniak, whom she met after he watched her stand-up show in July 2007.[2]

Griffin describes herself as a "militant atheist". While in high school, she fell away from the Roman Catholic Church and wanted to become a Unitarian. Said Griffin: "I'm not really sure what that is, but it sounds better."[3]

She is an outspoken opponent of LASIK eye surgery, having endured a series of operations for her own eyesight, which has left her partially blind in one eye with a visible eyeball deformity.[4] She is open about her multiple plastic surgeries, and claims that fat "grew back" after her liposuction procedure.

Kathy Griffin's father, John Patrick Griffin, died of heart failure on February 17, 2007, during the third season shooting of her reality show. The episode related to his passing aired on June 19.

Griffin placed seventeenth on Oxygen's 2007 list of "The 50 Funniest Women Alive."

So she's not Jewish, she's Irish Catholic. (Which explains her stance. She learned "Do as I say, don't do as I do.")

It's a pity. A real shame that people don't actually pay attention to Christ's teachings. People proclaim and say they do things in his honor, but they really don't know him. I don't think any of us do. It's about time (including myself) that we actually got to know Jesus.

philosophy noun (philosophies) 1 the search for truth and knowledge concerning the universe, human existence, perception and behaviour, pursued by means of reflection, reasoning and argument. 2 any particular system or set of beliefs established as a result of this. 3 a set of principles that serves as a basis for making judgements and decisions

you come to a forum for the discusion of philosophy, you argue yours based on faith, showing complete disrespect to principles of fallsifiability, reason, and logic, the some of the very foundations of philosophy itself. this is a place for debate, not opinions. if we look at the five fallacies of faulty reasoning we can see quite clearly why the christians here seem incapable of arguing their causes;

* Fallacies that violate the structural criterion. The structural criterion requires that one who argues for or against a position should use an argument that meets the fundamental structural requirements of a well-formed argument, using premises that are compatible with one another, that do not contradict the conclusion, that do not assume the truth of the conclusion, and that are not involved in any faulty deductive inference. Fallacies such as begging the question, denying the antecedent, or undistributed middle violate this criterion.


* Fallacies that violate the relevance criterion. The relevance criterion requires that one who presents an argument for or against a position should attempt to set forth only reasons that are directly related to the merit of the position at issue. Fallacies such as appeal to tradition, appeal to force, or genetic fallacy fail to meet the argumentative demands of relevance.

* Fallacies that violate the acceptability criterion. The acceptability criterion requires that one who presents an argument for or against a position should attempt to use reasons that are likely to be accepted by a rationally mature person and that meet the standard criteria of acceptability. Fallacies such as equivocation, fallacy of division, and wishful thinking are unacceptable because they are based on linguistic confusion or involve unacceptable assumptions.

* Fallacies that violate the sufficiency criterion. The sufficiency criterion requires that one who presents an argument for or against a position should attempt to provide reasons that are sufficient in number, kind, and weight to support the acceptance of the conclusion. Fallacies such as argument from ignorance, special pleading, and the post hoc fallacy violate this criterion because they are arguments that are missing importance evidence or make causal assumptions based on insufficient evidence.


* Fallacies that violate the rebuttal criterion. The rebuttal criterion requires that one who presents an argument for or against a position should attempt to provide an effective rebuttal to all serious challenges to the argument or the position it supports and to the strongest arguments for viable alternative positions. Fallacies such as red herring, straw man, and poisoning the well fail to meet this criterion because they attack the arguer rather than the argument or use argumentative devices that divert attention away from the issue at stake.


could the christians here actually for once manage to defend their position without committing one the above 5 mistakes?

as to why we attack christians here, well so far no buddhist has shown, up we've had 2 muslims who've posted for a day and then never been seen again, zero sihks, and a few pagans and pantheists, the majority of us either christians or atheists; is it really that suprising that the majority of topics will delineate along atheist vs christian lines?

I find it funny how nobody is actually getting the satire in her joke.

Any other celebrity, no matter how un-christian they are, always thank God or Jesus for their awards.

She was breaking the mold that all celebrities owe their success to a higher power.

Could she have worded it better, probably, but I'm not claiming she is that great of a comedian to begin with.

I think one of the reasons Christians get attacked is that most of them are assumed to be fanatics. Not all of them are, just like not all of atheists are.

There are a lot of seemingly "Christian" based laws on the books, but there are a lot of "atheist" based laws being pushed too.

Being a Christian is not necessarily based on believing in "make believe" things. There REALLY is a lot of stuff out there that defies natural explanation, some of it I really would be happy that it didn't exist, but unfortunately it ends up doing so whether I want it or not. Truely, I mean it when I say that there is stuff I really, really wish did not exist.

Zombie Starscream wrote:There REALLY is a lot of stuff out there that defies natural explanation, some of it I really would be happy that it didn't exist, but unfortunately it ends up doing so whether I want it or not. Truely, I mean it when I say that there is stuff I really, really wish did not exist.

What do you mean, exactly? Paranormal stuff?

Zombie Starscream wrote:
There are a lot of seemingly "Christian" based laws on the books, but there are a lot of "atheist" based laws being pushed too.

But isn't that because in the US at least we are supposed to have a separation of church from the affairs of the state? We aren't supposed to have religiously based laws.......murder being illegal is obviously not really a religious-based law, it's wrong to kill someone becuase it is wrong to take life from others. That's not a flat out religiously grounded belief, even athiests will most likely agree that killing someone is wrong.

Maybe I miss read your statement. In the interest of not offending anyone, I mean.

lkavadas wrote:You'll never see them create a thread which specifically attacks Muslims. Never. But just look over the current thread list.

Muslims go out of their way to blow people who attack it in such a public arena the **** up.

Dagon wrote:

Zombie Starscream wrote:
There are a lot of seemingly "Christian" based laws on the books, but there are a lot of "atheist" based laws being pushed too.

But isn't that because in the US at least we are supposed to have a separation of church from the affairs of the state? We aren't supposed to have religiously based laws.......murder being illegal is obviously not really a religious-based law, it's wrong to kill someone becuase it is wrong to take life from others. That's not a flat out religiously grounded belief, even athiests will most likely agree that killing someone is wrong.

Maybe I miss read your statement. In the interest of not offending anyone, I mean.

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color (unless you mean positive-statement atheism, which I doubt you'll really ever encounter). Seeing as the US ascribes to no religion, then of course it's going to have atheistic laws. In fact, mostly atheistic, based on such simple ideas as "You don't try to kill me, and I won't try to kill you."

DesalationReborn is confusing "atheism" (a belief structure that there *is* no god or gods) with "agnosticism" (a non-believe like much like baldness being non-hair).

There are alot of "Christian" laws because alot of what's confused with "Christian" or "Jewish" falls under "common sense"...alot like "Thou shalt not kill" being in the 10 commandments...it just happens to make alot of sense alongside...

DorkimusPrime wrote:DesalationReborn is confusing "atheism" (a belief structure that there *is* no god or gods) with "agnosticism" (a non-believe like much like baldness being non-hair).

There are alot of "Christian" laws because alot of what's confused with "Christian" or "Jewish" falls under "common sense"...alot like "Thou shalt not kill" being in the 10 commandments...it just happens to make alot of sense alongside...

No, he's not; agnosticism is the claim to beleive that you cannot Know god's existence, but is seperate from beleiving in god


thus you can be an agnostic theist; i cannot know god exists but i believe he does

or an agnostic atheist; i cannot know god exists and there fore i don't beleive he exists

however atheism can be broken down into 2 further seperation, weak and strong; the disbelief in god, and the belief in no gods respectively

the difference is knowing something and beleiving something.

i completely agree with you about the laws, i worry that the only reason theists are following laws like thou shalt not kill is becuase they're god told them too, and they understand why it's wrong to kill.

Tammuz wrote:

could the christians here actually for once manage to defend their position without committing one the above 5 mistakes?

No. You insist on going by rules made up by man. God's rules and reasoning trump man's by a thousand fold. You can bring all the reasoning and logic and science you want, and it doesn't mean anything. Its made by man, and therefor only as good as the man (or woman) making it.

God trumps man. End of discussion, for me anyway. Enjoy picking apart my blind and stupid faith though. I am here to please.

Ironhidensh wrote:

Tammuz wrote:

could the christians here actually for once manage to defend their position without committing one the above 5 mistakes?

No. You insist on going by rules made up by man. God's rules and reasoning trump man's by a thousand fold. You can bring all the reasoning and logic and science you want, and it doesn't mean anything. Its made by man, and therefor only as good as the man (or woman) making it.

God trumps man. End of discussion, for me anyway. Enjoy picking apart my blind and stupid faith though. I am here to please.

I'm god, therefore i trump.