The Energon Pub

Asderiphel wrote:At the end of the film, I felt like most Florida State fans in the 90's: they almost pulled it off, and just missed. And yeah, I was looking forward to it, more than any movie since Phantom Menace (didn't win that round, either). My wife enjoyed the film, and when she asked me what I thought, I literally couldn't choke out a response. I still wish I had enjoyed it, because I like TF's so much and am really enthralled with the multiple universes and incarnations...but I just couldn't. The movie toys are all pretty good, I like the designs, all the bots looked great on screen...but the film ultimately lost me.

Oh well, there's always TF: Animated upcoming, right?

that florida state comment was great.
i feel you put it clearly. you kinda mirrored what i experienced with my wife after we walked out. she loved it, i didn't quite know where i was when it was over.
thanks for typing my thoughts on this as well.
anyhoo, cheers

decepticonjon wrote:

Asderiphel wrote:At the end of the film, I felt like most Florida State fans in the 90's: they almost pulled it off, and just missed. And yeah, I was looking forward to it, more than any movie since Phantom Menace (didn't win that round, either). My wife enjoyed the film, and when she asked me what I thought, I literally couldn't choke out a response. I still wish I had enjoyed it, because I like TF's so much and am really enthralled with the multiple universes and incarnations...but I just couldn't. The movie toys are all pretty good, I like the designs, all the bots looked great on screen...but the film ultimately lost me.

Oh well, there's always TF: Animated upcoming, right?

that florida state comment was great.
i feel you put it clearly. you kinda mirrored what i experienced with my wife after we walked out. she loved it, i didn't quite know where i was when it was over.
thanks for typing my thoughts on this as well.
anyhoo, cheers

Glad I could help. It was the weirdest experience leaving the theater with a frown, and then getting online and seeing everybody just insane with glee. I felt like I had gone mad, and I spent a good couple days mulling it over to try and determine if I was being too harsh. But I'm not...it just wasn't the movie I was hoping for.

Autobot32...thanks. Agree to disagree, but making points without taking or giving offense will hopefully lead to good discussion about what we all want for the sequel (if they listen).

Phenotype...The "Popcorn Flick" defense has been played on every argument for a better film I've seen, so I decided to attack that defense. I was unaware you had not made one aggressive, overly biased movie-defense statement to any of the movie detractors. If you haven't, then I apologize. If you have, though, I think there's a big pile of kettles, and a big pile of pots, all yelling "Black!" at each other, somewhere.

Asderiphel wrote:Phenotype...The "Popcorn Flick" defense has been played on every argument for a better film I've seen, so I decided to attack that defense. I was unaware you had not made one aggressive, overly biased movie-defense statement to any of the movie detractors. If you haven't, then I apologize. If you have, though, I think there's a big pile of kettles, and a big pile of pots, all yelling "Black!" at each other, somewhere.

Dude, I don't even know where this is coming from, all I was saying was that I thought it was poopy for you to say that someone would have to lower their intelligence level to that of a 13 year old to enjoy the film. Seems like you're beating around the bush quite a bit since you've replied to me 2 or 3 times but haven't actually addressed the only issue I brought up.

Phenotype wrote:

Asderiphel wrote:Phenotype...The "Popcorn Flick" defense has been played on every argument for a better film I've seen, so I decided to attack that defense. I was unaware you had not made one aggressive, overly biased movie-defense statement to any of the movie detractors. If you haven't, then I apologize. If you have, though, I think there's a big pile of kettles, and a big pile of pots, all yelling "Black!" at each other, somewhere.

Dude, I don't even know where this is coming from, all I was saying was that I thought it was poopy for you to say that someone would have to lower their intelligence level to that of a 13 year old to enjoy the film. Seems like you're beating around the bush quite a bit since you've replied to me 2 or 3 times but haven't actually addressed the only issue I brought up.

Ok, my beating around the bush is just trying to be diplomatic...my comment could be construed as harsh, and I don't usually go on the offensive. So, I was trying to say "oops" in an intelligent way, and let it go.

But since you want me to discuss it, I'll address it. Almost every thread with movie apologists has a comment about 'relaxing your standards' or 'unplugging and going along for the ride'. So, is my comment untrue? Are you offended because I said 13 year old? If I'd left out the age descriptor, would it have been fine? The movie: a) is not deep b) has low-brow humor c) has little characterization and d) is a visual spectacle. Those aren't opinions, that's just truth...so what is the target demographic of this film? It's not me. I don't need a Dr. Zhivago, but I would have enjoyed a mildlysmarter movie. But the vast majority of the pro-movie crowd goes after that sentiment like Hampton, VA pit bulls. "What did you expect, it's TRANSFORMERS!"

Autobot32, as opinionated as he is, did admit that he was just as much at fault being antagonistic as he was constructive. And my 'memo' response was aimed directly at his 'haterade asses' comment. So, if you're going to call bullshit on me, then you have to call bullshit on every other offensive comment that any pro-movie fan has posted, too. Otherwise, you're enabling the argument, and that is pure bullshit.

Succinct enough?

Spark Light wrote:Easy.

"Steven Spielberg and Michael Bay seem to know how to do everything right. Their newest movie “Transformers” is based on a children’s toy from the 90’s."

80s, not 90s.

Technically, if you want to say the '90s...they're not far off.

The level of quality, the personalities, the designs, etc seem to be culled from Beast Wars and later. There was a level of development in those shows and toys that far surpassed G1 back in the '80s.

Asderiphel wrote:I'm glad you enjoyed the post. And I agree with you...the movie verse does have potential, and that in many ways, it's good open for most non-Transfans.

And I'd love to actually discuss my grievances with the film...which, like you said, after a couple weeks and a few thousand posts, I still haven't really seen anybody attempt.

My big complaints with the film stem directly from the script, or the tone of the script. I hate wasted space. Scenes like the cut-away scenes to the Indian call center guy
or the extra 20 seconds it took to tackle Anthony Andersen cousin into the pool bother me to no end. They take up space I'd rather spend with the main characters...not just TF's, but Sam or Mikaela as well. It felt superfluous.

The prime example of this is the 'dog with the broken foot'. The entire reason the dog has a broken foot is so Sam will have the pain meds in his jacket when he gets arrested...and then only so Sam can deliver a joke by asking the cop if he's on drugs. I did like the scene with Sam's parents and Sam talking about the dog (when they're outside gardening) because that scene is a good example of natural dialogue...it's the kind of conversation you can imagine having with your parents about your dog, and helps ground the film in realism. To me, that's a lot of exposition to get to a lame joke, and really, the whole scene with the cop does nothing to further the story at all. Hence, wasted space. Anthony Andersen's entire screen time falls in this category.

Robot character development is an issue with me, and goes back to the wasted space. If they'd cut a couple of the wasted shots and put in 'bots with a couple lines, I think I would have liked the film. As it was, Prime's response to Jazz's death should be non sequitur, but because we don't really no any of the bots, collectively the audience gets to say "Aww, Jazz" and move on, no strings attached.

The only thing I hated, and this is where Bay completely lost me, is BB peeing on Turturro. I have pure unadulterated loathing for this scene...not because it happens...but because it's preceded by a pee joke less than 20 minutes earlier. Toilet humor has it's place, but brow-beating me with it twice for the sake of a cheap laugh is galling. This is the one thing in the film I literally almost walked out on, and I've never walked on a film. Even Congo (and those are hours I can't get back). I think when I see the film again, I'll take a pee break myself when that scene is coming up, and see if that affects my enjoyment of the film.

I can wish there was more Decepticons, and I can wish they were handled like characters instead of monsters, but that's a stylistic choice I hope will be addressed in the next go round. I think a scene showing all the 'cons early, maybe in silhouette, would have enhanced their menace and given them a chance to write 'Con banter.

At the end of the film, I felt like most Florida State fans in the 90's: they almost pulled it off, and just missed. And yeah, I was looking forward to it, more than any movie since Phantom Menace (didn't win that round, either). My wife enjoyed the film, and when she asked me what I thought, I literally couldn't choke out a response. I still wish I had enjoyed it, because I like TF's so much and am really enthralled with the multiple universes and incarnations...but I just couldn't. The movie toys are all pretty good, I like the designs, all the bots looked great on screen...but the film ultimately lost me.

Oh well, there's always TF: Animated upcoming, right?

Asderiphel wrote:I'm glad you enjoyed the post. And I agree with you...the movie verse does have potential, and that in many ways, it's good open for most non-Transfans.

And I'd love to actually discuss my grievances with the film...which, like you said, after a couple weeks and a few thousand posts, I still haven't really seen anybody attempt.

My big complaints with the film stem directly from the script, or the tone of the script. I hate wasted space. Scenes like the cut-away scenes to the Indian call center guy
or the extra 20 seconds it took to tackle Anthony Andersen cousin into the pool bother me to no end. They take up space I'd rather spend with the main characters...not just TF's, but Sam or Mikaela as well. It felt superfluous.

The prime example of this is the 'dog with the broken foot'. The entire reason the dog has a broken foot is so Sam will have the pain meds in his jacket when he gets arrested...and then only so Sam can deliver a joke by asking the cop if he's on drugs. I did like the scene with Sam's parents and Sam talking about the dog (when they're outside gardening) because that scene is a good example of natural dialogue...it's the kind of conversation you can imagine having with your parents about your dog, and helps ground the film in realism. To me, that's a lot of exposition to get to a lame joke, and really, the whole scene with the cop does nothing to further the story at all. Hence, wasted space. Anthony Andersen's entire screen time falls in this category.

Robot character development is an issue with me, and goes back to the wasted space. If they'd cut a couple of the wasted shots and put in 'bots with a couple lines, I think I would have liked the film. As it was, Prime's response to Jazz's death should be non sequitur, but because we don't really no any of the bots, collectively the audience gets to say "Aww, Jazz" and move on, no strings attached.

The only thing I hated, and this is where Bay completely lost me, is BB peeing on Turturro. I have pure unadulterated loathing for this scene...not because it happens...but because it's preceded by a pee joke less than 20 minutes earlier. Toilet humor has it's place, but brow-beating me with it twice for the sake of a cheap laugh is galling. This is the one thing in the film I literally almost walked out on, and I've never walked on a film. Even Congo (and those are hours I can't get back). I think when I see the film again, I'll take a pee break myself when that scene is coming up, and see if that affects my enjoyment of the film.

I can wish there was more Decepticons, and I can wish they were handled like characters instead of monsters, but that's a stylistic choice I hope will be addressed in the next go round. I think a scene showing all the 'cons early, maybe in silhouette, would have enhanced their menace and given them a chance to write 'Con banter.

At the end of the film, I felt like most Florida State fans in the 90's: they almost pulled it off, and just missed. And yeah, I was looking forward to it, more than any movie since Phantom Menace (didn't win that round, either). My wife enjoyed the film, and when she asked me what I thought, I literally couldn't choke out a response. I still wish I had enjoyed it, because I like TF's so much and am really enthralled with the multiple universes and incarnations...but I just couldn't. The movie toys are all pretty good, I like the designs, all the bots looked great on screen...but the film ultimately lost me.

Oh well, there's always TF: Animated upcoming, right?

A lot of the examples you're giving are a lot of the reason I think the script could have been tightened up a little bit, to really bring things together a little more. The cop thing, I've asked around to a few people, wondering if this was a gag from some other film. Other than the fact that cop is played by the guy who was Endless Mike from Pete and Pete, I haven't heard of any yet.

I wouldn't so much call this a gripe as an observation, but I mentioned to my fiancee after seeing the movie... you could get away with cutting Glen and Maggie from the movie. I liked their characters, but other than revealing the existance of Sector 7 and Project Iceman to the audience, they don't do a whole lot. It's not like they break the news to Keller or anything. Like I said, I don't mind because I like the characters, and they would be fun to see in the sequel, but another trip through the typewriter(or word processor, more likely) could have tightened up their connection to events.

I don't mind things that don't directly tie into the main plot, as long as they serve some function to expand a character or the world. I don't mind Mojo, because he gives you a little better idea about who Sam and his parents are, because you've got a little bit of shorthand with an audience as to people who own these little dogs and spoil them(though I do think you've got a good point about whether or not the injury was necessary). I think a little comedy relief wasn't a bad choice during the Scorpinok scene, which I think was probably the most intense fight in the movie(and where Bay's more frantic camera work fit the best). The scene was amusing, and supposedly based on a real incident, but I can't help but wonder how that joke might play ten or twenty years in the future, when it's not so timely. The use of humor as a distancing device for the audience is pretty common in Bay's movies, and it was sort of hit and miss in this one.

The Bumblebee scene... oh yeah. That is the one scene, above all the others, I could do without. And it's not even that it's toilet humor, or that it's so close to the Mojo joke. It's the fact that it feels TERRIBLY out of character for Bumblebee. It doesn't fit with the character at all. It also did a lot to really pull the fangs of Sector 7 as a legit threat(though a fair share of that goes to Turturro's over the top performance, as well... I wish Banachek had been around from the start, as Michael O'Neill almost seems to force Turturro to rein it in and play the part more seriously). But that was probably the worst choice in the film, in terms of scene selection. Bumblebee could have "gotten" Simmons in a way that worked better for his character. And if you have to have a character do that, Ironhide would have made a LOT more sense.

And one thing that clicked for me in the movie was how ILM and the VAs really brought the characters to life. I loved little things, like Ratchet egging on Ironhide when he's talking about taking out the parents. I would have loved to have seen that more front and center, though.

Another problem I had was that, I do think Jazz had a pretty heroic death. The problem was, the camera didn't focus on what was his character's defining moment, blocking Megatron's attack so humans could get away. I didn't even notice it until a second viewing of the movie. I'm really hopeful that the characterization of the 'Bots is more front and center in the next movie. Otherwise, I'll start to worry ILM is a little more concerned with the characters than the director is.

And I can get the decision to make the Decepticons more monstrous for the movie. I think it might have been a little overwhelming to the average movie-goer to try and accept the concept of these giant robots as characters, as well as some degree of moral ambiguity to the 'Cons. Or at the very least accepting them as more than just the threat. Of course, we'll have Starscream back, and rumor has it that Soundwave and Shockwave might be in the next one. If those characters are played more like generic monsters than more fully developed characters, I'll be disappointed.

Ultimately, yeah... I didn't like everything about the movie, but I never had a moment that pulled me out of the movie, like the end of Spiderman 3 did. And given the fact that Transformers, from when I first saw it as a kid until now, has been a form of escape for me, I let myself be taken back to when I was a kid. If nothing else, I'm glad this one is doing as well as it has. If it had bombed, we'd probably never get this again. But even if the sequels don't perform, the audience response to the first film might let someone try again with a reboot down the line.

And speaking of being a little kid again... I think Animated looks like it's going to be a blast.

(And wow, I got long winded. Sorry if I'm scaring anyone. =p)

Asderiphel wrote:But since you want me to discuss it, I'll address it. Almost every thread with movie apologists has a comment about 'relaxing your standards' or 'unplugging and going along for the ride'.

I disagree with a lot of those arguments, I don't consider Transformers a "popcorn flick", I didn't need to "unplug and go along for the ride" or "relax" any of my "standards". I feel like a lot of those comments are either from people who deep down were disappointed on some level and are trying to convice themselves it was great by saying, "hey it was just a popcorn flick" or from people who honestly just can't think of a better argument. To me the type of movie they're talking about is a movie like Stealth, it wasn't that bad but it wasn't that good, it wasn't very smart and was basically a way to kill 2 hours. Transformers was not that movie for me.

I went in not quite sure what to expect but I had a pretty good idea from all of the trailers and spoilers I had read and I got pretty much exactly what I expected except that it was even better than I thought it would be. There were a few moments that made me groan but it's not like any great film is without its flaws. Overall I was extremely satisfied, there's really nothing more I could have asked for, I wasn't expecting something that would bring me to tears, or make me question my core values, or inspire me to write a song, I was expecting a great action film with great characters and a great story and that's what I got.

So, is my comment untrue? Are you offended because I said 13 year old?

Yes and yes, just because a few people on here used that argument doesn't make it a fact. Your comment was a low blow that I didn't appreciate.

If I'd left out the age descriptor, would it have been fine? The movie: a) is not deep b) has low-brow humor c) has little characterization and d) is a visual spectacle.

A) I think the movie is deep on some levels, it's certainly not the intellectual or emotional masterpiece of the year but I don't think anybody was expecting it to be.

B) It does contain some low-brow humor but certainly not as low-brow as movies like Ace Ventura, White Chicks, Dumb & Dumber, Big Momma's House, The Nutty Professor, There's Something about Mary, you get the point. There are a lot of films out there that are really dumbed down and Transformers wasn't one of them. Sure it contained some low-brow moments I could have done without but it also had a lot of really clever jokes and I didn't let the low-brow stuff bother me because it wasn't integral to the story.

C) The Transformers (except for BB and Prime) had little characterization, the humans got quite a bit.

D) Why is being a visual spectacle a bad thing?

Those aren't opinions, that's just truth...

Nah, they're your opinions bro. You're watering everything down to such a base level it doesn't even resemble truth. By saying, "b) has low-brow humor" you're implying that all of the humor in the whole film is low-brow and there are no smart moments or clever jokes. Do you know what that's called? That's called framing, that's when you try and present a subject a certain way to alter someone's perception of it. Like I said, it had some low-brow moments but it was definitely not a low-brow film.

so what is the target demographic of this film? It's not me.

Just because you didn't enjoy the film doesn't mean you weren't in the target demographic. There's always going to be exceptions, they can say, "Our target demographic is mostly boys ages 13-30" but that doesn't mean every boy from 13-30 is going to like the film. It also means some people outside of that target will enojy the film, like I previously stated my 47 year old mother loved it.

I don't need a Dr. Zhivago, but I would have enjoyed a mildlysmarter movie. But the vast majority of the pro-movie crowd goes after that sentiment like Hampton, VA pit bulls. "What did you expect, it's TRANSFORMERS!"

You know what, I would have enjoyed a mildly smarter movie as well but that didn't stop me from enjoying the film, why should it? There's things I would change about every film I love, that doesn't make them bad films, it just means that everyone's different and everyone likes different things.

Autobot32, as opinionated as he is, did admit that he was just as much at fault being antagonistic as he was constructive. And my 'memo' response was aimed directly at his 'haterade asses' comment. So, if you're going to call bullshit on me, then you have to call bullshit on every other offensive comment that any pro-movie fan has posted, too. Otherwise, you're enabling the argument, and that is pure bullshit.

I don't have time to go around and call bullshit on every comment made by every member here, I'm not a mod and even if I was I wouldn't care enough to do that. His comment was only directed at a small group of people who endlessly bitch and moan about every little detail in the movie, your comment was directed at any person who enjoyed the film so I chose to call BS on yours. You have a lot of good points and your feelings are very valid, just don't go around insulting those of us who liked it just because you didn't, it's as simple as that.