The Energon Pub

DJDrew&ScoobyDoo wrote:I agree with that, in principle. However, I haven't shopped at Wal*Mart since I quit back in 1999. They are still just as powerful a juggernaut as they have ever been, maybe even more so.

Yeah, that's another thing about free market economy. Evidently, not EVERYONE subscribes to your feelings of Wal-Mart being the ultimate evil, so many more so that they keep them in business. The only catch is that they're not doing what you want them to do.

now class, sit down for todays lesson. this, by which i mean the article, is an example of an industrial revolution. now every country has to go through this stage to go from a third world country, which is a poor country, to a first world country, which is a country with loads of money. another example is the british industrial revolution, when all the farm workers had to move to the city to make machines that replaced them on the farm in terrible conditions similar to those described in the article. but after less than a century, everyone had unions and health rights and holidays, along with decent pay, and every one was hunky dory.

i love being a jerk

My grandfather had to drop out of school to work in a factory to help his parents make ends meet. The only people that dropped out of my high school were slackers or expecting children (which is because they were slackers).

Child labor laws weren't even considered in this country until we didn't need child labor anymore. Minimum wage wasn't enacted until we started becoming prosperous. Workers comp and insuranance? "Did you cut your hand off? I need workers with two hands. Bye, bye"

My storage shed was the guard shack from the Michelin Plant in Pendleton, South Carolina. My father-in-law bought it when they remodeled the plant in the late seventies/early eighties. There is a massive sign on the side that basically says if you get hurt, you're fired.

China is experiencing an industrial and cultural revolution right now. As capitalism invades their economy, prosperity will follow.

Have you considered your stance, all of you who are ready to boycott or have been boycotting? Next time you pass up that Masterpiece TF because it was made in China, take a second and think about the five Chinese who would have eaten today if you hadn't.

The stages of economy through which America and Western Europe passed do not represent an evolutionary sequence through which other countries would necessarily pass. China's been industrializing and undergoing massive cultural transformations for decades now, so that it's hardly accurate to say they're in an industrial revolution comparable to ours, and even if they were, there's no reason that prosperity comparable to ours should follow.

We have a global capitalist economy, and as the topic of working conditions of Chinese people working for an American company which sells toys worldwide suggests, we're speaking about sets of relationships within a system, not about America, China, and wherever else as independent systems. It makes no sense to speak of capitalist or socialist countries for this sort of relationship: Transformers are for sale in socialist countries, and a transnational corporation based in such a country can also hire cheap labor by opening a factory in China. Contemporary socialism operates only as an equalizer of income and services at the level of the nation-state.

Locating fault with the global capitalist system, in which profit is made by the difference between the value of a product and what a company can get away with paying workers to make it, does not conflict with advocating free markets and personal responsibility. We're on the good end of a set of economic relationships that don't leave the people on the bad end with very many options, with the inequality of the relationships having their source in history. In the case of China, I do believe that decades of invasion and colonization by Western powers and then by Japan rather helped.

They're in a catch-22: if they institute labor or minimum wage laws, then capital will simply invest somewhere else where labor is cheaper. Meanwhile, refraining from buying from Hasbro doesn't make much of a dent. If it's done with large enough collective action, the best-case scenario involves investment of the company in higher-paying labor, thus producing more expensive toys. Unsurprisingly, we don't have many people rallying behind that.

Welcome to the real world we live in.

Everything are made in China because it is the only country where we can produce everything - almost everything - with a low price, high benefit, and simply don't care about environment devastation, global warming, workforce abuse, human rights, and so on. Even their government doesn't care about what happens to their own citizens. Only cares about dollars converted into renminbi to feed their 1.5 billion souls.

Money talks. And it becomes more intense by the time our world is tied together with capitalism. Global corporations aware of this situation, and they exploit it for their own gains. China is a soft target in this matter. They have low-cost but skilled workforce, simple bureaucracy for FDIs, low standards of safety. What else do these corporations need?

As long as they get more benefit and less cost from doing so, do they care about safety? I don't think so.

lkavadas wrote:The plight of Chinese workers is a Chinese problem. They can deal with it themselves. It's called personal responsibility. I know that 80% of the people on this forum expect the government to do everything for them, and apparently for ill-treated workers in a foreign nation while they're at it, but this is not the responsibility of anyone besides the Chinese. It's not our fault they've been bred from birth to be completely subservient and basically work as slaves.

It is not just China's problem, because American companies are cashing in on it. It is now in the best interest of these companies to let something very un-American happen: oppression and the lack of freedom.

lkavadas wrote:How dare we put the blame on the communist dictatorship that makes all of this possible. Clearly they're not responsible. Just evil America and our evil greed and whatever inane notion you decide to concoct next.

It's not the fault of America's government, no. At least, not directly. It's the fault of companies that prosper from something they can't legally do here. It's hypocrisy. I'll bet every last one of their CEO's are patriotic and conservative; cheering America and it's free policies, even as they turn a blind eye to the very things this country claims to hate.

This is why so many liberals have lost faith in this country. It's all of Western Civilization technically, but they are only reacting to what they see, which is their country of freedom letting other people be hurt. They don't hate America, and they don't want her to suffer. They just don't understand the double-standard.


@ Wavelength & KAMJIIN:

That's a cop out. You can't expect everything that happened in history to repeat itself. That's a mistake many historians really hate. The world is not a wheel and just because a few things happened similarly in the past doesn't mean it will happen that way again.

But let's say it will happen that way.

Meantime, people are suffering. And don't say some chinese guy will eat tonight if I buy this TF. That's not how communism works. They all eat. Doesn't matter what you buy. They make stuff for us, and they eat. It's just not very much and their human rights are ignored.

You're not supporting anything except the factory owner who will commit suicide if his operation goes under. And if it doesn't, he'll keep torturing kids on your dollar.

Of course, it's my dollar too. It really is everywhere.

No revolution will happen. People in China are too scared of their government. Public executions, rape rooms, and being beaten in school will have that effect. They have no guns, that's for sure. What revolution?

But let's say this revolution happens. My official prediction:

The US will back the CCP, and help China squash it. Patriots who love freedom and joined the military because of that will help us do it. Why? Because if China gets labor laws, and Taiwan's government wins, everything in the US becomes more expensive.

Call me cynical. I know I am. It's just that China has quite the stockpile of nukes, and so do we. We don't want a cold war, so we will go along with a vile government to avoid one.

Dark Zarak wrote:It is not just China's problem, because American companies are cashing in on it. It is now in the best interest of these companies to let something very un-American happen: oppression and the lack of freedom.

It's not the fault of America's government, no. At least, not directly. It's the fault of companies that prosper from something they can't legally do here. It's hypocrisy. I'll bet every last one of their CEO's are patriotic and conservative; cheering America and it's free policies, even as they turn a blind eye to the very things this country claims to hate.

Like I said, to you and Tammuz anybody but the country itself is responsible. Nice. Again, how dare we put any blame on the communist regime. It's our economic system and our corporations. Yeah, entirely our fault. Again, I'll point to Taiwan. All China needs to do is reformat their government. Other nations in the area which we do lots of business with don't have problems like these (Taiwan, Japan, South Korea).

So again, if American corporations haven't destroyed the working class in those three countries how can you blame them for destroying China's? You can't. The logic just isn't there. China sucks because their government is a P.O.S. that just allows this happen, fosters it even. They're the enablers.

But like you said, it's anyone's fault besides China's

Ikavadas, again you are missing my point.


I'm not saying it's caused by American companies, I'm saying American companies should not be taking advantage of it. But they are, so therefore, they are almost equally as responsible. They are profiting from letting horrible things happen, when the humane thing to do would be to deny them their business. But money matters more, and as a result, everyone in America is supporting it by buying the products.


It would only be China's problem if it wasn't so common to see things made in China over here.

Notice I'm not blaming the current situation in Darfur on America. I'm blaming it on the people over there. That's because there are no companies that I know of profiting from genocide.

Do you understand what I mean? Yes the CCP is causing it, but America in general (companies and population) is profiting from it. That is what I'm complaining about. American companies are helping it happen.

Dark Zarak wrote:Ikavadas, again you are missing my point.


I'm not saying it's caused by American companies, I'm saying American companies should not be taking advantage of it. But they are, so therefore, they are almost equally as responsible. They are profiting from letting horrible things happen, when the humane thing to do would be to deny them their business. But money matters more, and as a result, everyone in America is supporting it by buying the products.


It would only be China's problem if it wasn't so common to see things made in China over here.

Notice I'm not blaming the current situation in Darfur on America. I'm blaming it on the people over there. That's because there are no companies that I know of profiting from genocide.

Do you understand what I mean? Yes the CCP is causing it, but America in general (companies and population) is profiting from it. That is what I'm complaining about. American companies are helping it happen.

Again, anyone but China and if you can find the most slender thread of evidence you'll put the blame on America. It's what you lefties do with every single issue. Cancer? America's fault. The crayon sharpener on the bottom of crayola boxes doing a poor job of sharpening crayons? America's fault.

Fact of the matter is that whether or not something is actually America's fault America remains the first place you assign blame when to comes any issue. It must be horrible to really harbor such distaste for your home nation.

But hey, it's America's fault, right?

lkavadas wrote:

Dark Zarak wrote:Ikavadas, again you are missing my point.


I'm not saying it's caused by American companies, I'm saying American companies should not be taking advantage of it. But they are, so therefore, they are almost equally as responsible. They are profiting from letting horrible things happen, when the humane thing to do would be to deny them their business. But money matters more, and as a result, everyone in America is supporting it by buying the products.


It would only be China's problem if it wasn't so common to see things made in China over here.

Notice I'm not blaming the current situation in Darfur on America. I'm blaming it on the people over there. That's because there are no companies that I know of profiting from genocide.

Do you understand what I mean? Yes the CCP is causing it, but America in general (companies and population) is profiting from it. That is what I'm complaining about. American companies are helping it happen.

Again, anyone but China and if you can find the most slender thread of evidence you'll put the blame on America. It's what you lefties do with every single issue. Cancer? America's fault. The crayon sharpener on the bottom of crayola boxes doing a poor job of sharpening crayons? America's fault.

Fact of the matter is that whether or not something is actually America's fault America remains the first place you assign blame when to comes any issue. It must be horrible to really harbor such distaste for your home nation.

But hey, it's America's fault, right?

Okay, now you're just being a dick.


I'm making a point, having a discussion, and it's all of a sudden, "you lefties, you lefties!"


I don't have distaste for my country. Put down Anne Coulter and open your eyes. I HAVE DISTASTE FOR AMERICAN COMPANIES!!!!! COMPANIES!!!!!! THE DOWNSIDE OF CAPITALISM, AN OTHERWISE FINE WAY OF LIFE!!!!! THAT IS MY POINT.

Liberals don't hate their country. You just want us to. You need liberals to hate their country. Read my previous post in which I detailed in stupefying clearity the tragedy liberals face in America today, from their POV's.

I don't consider loving my country to be undying and blind faith in it's current government and willfully ignoring any bad sides to it. I consider blind faith in a fallible human government the height of idiocy. And yet, time after time, I'm accussed of being a traitor and hating my own homeland that makes my life so easy, just because I am doing the very disagreeing it allows me to do.

Liberals don't hate their country. They hate Bush. They hate mindless globalization that ignores human rights. Believe it or not, there is a difference. Can you even see it?

And the funny part is, you joined the military to defend us.


You know what, get the hell out of my thread. You've insulted me for the last time. If I'm allowed to even make that statement. Maybe I can't. But if I can:

Get the hell out of my thread. I made it for intelligent people who aren't married to hating everyone who disagrees with them. Loki's pretty conservative, if I'm not mistaken, and he was able to debate like a normal human being. I would tell you to get out of the forum, since you clearly don't belong in it, but I have no control over that.

You clearly can't debate or argue beyond the most basic of levels.


Jesus, why the hell did I even bother posting such a topic on a toy site anyway?

I do believe we're done here for now. If you guys can proove you can play nicely maybe it will be reopened, but as it is right now, it needs to be locked before this escalates any further.