The Energon Pub

I'm sorry, I dont' understand. I'm a moron. Yeesh.

This thread is wholly entertaining! Now as far as continuity goes there is no definitive answer. I've said it before but it obviously needs re-stating

Tramp your not wrong in what you think, but on the flip-side if someone else thinks differently they are not wrong either. (IE; I think a spark is like a heart and is simply that little energy ball, you stated differently, not wrong IMO just a different idea or take on the "Spark")

Every time there is a new series of comics, show or toy line the continuity takes a massive hit and gets jumbled up, allot of the time is a parallel universe scenario (which is probably only due to the massive continuity headache it would become) other times a new mythos is applied backward as a retcon

people need to stop forcing their beliefs of the TF universe on others. Its not a religion, its an idea.
To quote Dogma

I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier.

IMO the best way to think about the TF Mythos is that you can create your own universe! Its fun and a good creative outlet.
For example, my "multi-verse" has G1 cartoon up till the end of the movie, then has a modified take on the 3rd and 4th seasons (Changed the Quints from creators into enslavers, removed Primacron, keeping Unicron as an entity not big harvester for energy)
I have included Armada, but the games take on it(no humans, Decepticlone army, Megatrons death at the volcano) opposed to the cartoon and bumped it way into the future, an abridged Energon (with Galvatron, a sperate entity in place of Megatron who died in the game) plugs a gap into a reworked Cybertron (again in future, no pesky humans) the black hole is the result of Unicrons reemergence not his death. Chuck in Beast Wars (Show) and the IDW Beast series and you have a chunky TF stew that is suited to my tastes!

Once again I'd like to state that the mythos should be an idea, and no one person is right or wrong.

Thank you.

~Gutsman Heavy.

I dont want to take sides in this great debate .........but there's no reason to beleave that G1 MARVEL Starscream had a indestructibal spark.I know that Tramp will chime in and say that he did cause because he came back after the Underbase story but he wasnt the only one.Confirmed dead after the Underbase saga inclued The Dinobots, The Aerilbots The Predacons,Thundercracker,Skywarp,Jazz and Bumbblebee and most of these guys returned by the end of the run or by the time that G2 came out.They didnt all have a indestructible spark.Also in issue #2 or Marvel's G2 story line,page 16 bottem panel,Skidive is seen talking to Halk from G.I.JOE and he say's[And I Quote].......It's strange as a race,we have no concept of true death.To you it is unthinkable.To us it is INCONCEVIABLE.I wonder,Does that make it easier... or so very much Harder?
In the Marvel G1 they were treated much more like machine that could be rebuilt or reconstructed as soon a time premited.

However, by the same token, none of the others suffered the amount of damage that Starscream did. He was totally obliterated.

Tramp wrote:However, by the same token, none of the others suffered the amount of damage that Starscream did. He was totally obliterated.

Are you trying to say he was DEADER then the others?Dude dead is dead!That's what it breaks down too.The Marvel G1 and G2 universe did things a bit different then the others.I too would like to have some universal constints to the storys but the only thing that is deffenetly true of every Transformers serries is that Optimus Prime will die.....and come back.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:However, by the same token, none of the others suffered the amount of damage that Starscream did. He was totally obliterated.

Are you trying to say he was DEADER then the others?Dude dead is dead!That's what it breaks down too.The Marvel G1 and G2 universe did things a bit different then the others.I too would like to have some universal constints to the storys but the only thing that is deffenetly true of every Transformers serries is that Optimus Prime will die.....and come back.

In a sense, yes, he was. To use a more correct term the others were in severe stasis lock from massive damage. Starscream was utterly annihilated. There was hardly anything left of him. And there are some constants in the TF universe. For one "dead" does not always mean dead. Most of the time it just means stasis lock. Real death is very rare in TransFormers.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:However, by the same token, none of the others suffered the amount of damage that Starscream did. He was totally obliterated.

Are you trying to say he was DEADER then the others?Dude dead is dead!That's what it breaks down too.The Marvel G1 and G2 universe did things a bit different then the others.I too would like to have some universal constints to the storys but the only thing that is deffenetly true of every Transformers serries is that Optimus Prime will die.....and come back.

In a sense, yes, he was. To use a more correct term the others were in severe stasis lock from massive damage. Starscream was utterly annihilated. There was hardly anything left of him. And there are some constants in the TF universe. For one "dead" does not always mean dead. Most of the time it just means stasis lock. Real death is very rare in TransFormers.

He may have been more damaged but to say he was "utterly annihilated" is an over statment.I have issue #57 or the marvel run,the one where his remains are given to Ratchet by Megatron so that he could be rebuilt as a Pretender and there was 30% or more of him left.I have Transformers toys is morst shape in my collection.As fer them being in stasis lock thats just not true...Budiansky's script called for there death'sDeFalco the editor was conserend that the cast of the book was growing to large and the spinoff Headmaster didnt have a strong enought sales to substain its owen tital so the decision was made to kill off a large group of TF's in one large battle.The one's I said died were CONFIRMED DEAD by the writers script.Even Wiki has them listed as dieing in that story.....but I dont always trust the info coming from there.By the way man how are you doing any luck finding that Classic Starscream?

Nope, no luck on that front.

As for the rest, Most of the characters "killed" in that battle were minor characters (Throttlebots anyone?), not major players. Bumblebee and Grimlock were major players, so you know they weren't going to stay "dead", so to speak, and that's my point. If you look at the actual damage, and the conditions of their "bodies" and compare them to Starscream, their "injuries" while severe, are technically survivable by TF standards, with proper repairs and equipment. Starscream's were truely fatal. And, yes, if you look at that picture of Starscream, he is nothing but a tangled mass of debris. Goldbug, Jazz and Grimlock were all in much better condition, and were mostly intact. Another thing you need to consider is that Hasbro was gearing up for the then "new" Pretender Classics, and the later Action Masters. The "killing off" of these characters was to gear up for story lines revolving around these series of toys.

Also, definately don't trust Wiki's. not unless you can confirm their material from the original source. IF there is a web citation in the Wiki, click on that citation and go to that web page and read that. Always verify the information. The biggest issue with Wiki's is that anyone can change the information on them. There is no accountability.

Tramp wrote:Nope, no luck on that front.

As for the rest, Most of the characters "killed" in that battle were minor characters (Throttlebots anyone?), not major players. Bumblebee and Grimlock were major players, so you know they weren't going to stay "dead", so to speak, and that's my point. If you look at the actual damage, and the conditions of their "bodies" and compare them to Starscream, their "injuries" while severe, are technically survivable by TF standards, with proper repairs and equipment. Starscream's were truely fatal. And, yes, if you look at that picture of Starscream, he is nothing but a tangled mass of debris. Goldbug, Jazz and Grimlock were all in much better condition, and were mostly intact. Another thing you need to consider is that Hasbro was gearing up for the then "new" Pretender Classics, and the later Action Masters. The "killing off" of these characters was to gear up for story lines revolving around these series of toys.

Also, definately don't trust Wiki's. not unless you can confirm their material from the original source. IF there is a web citation in the Wiki, click on that citation and go to that web page and read that. Always verify the information. The biggest issue with Wiki's is that anyone can change the information on them. There is no accountability.

Yeah I dont trust Wiki all that much.But the point I'm trying to drive home with you is that there's no proff that Starscream had a indestructible spark in the Marvel G1 universe.In issue 50 we see starscream kill off many of the non organic Transformers but when he trys to kill of some pretenders they dont die.Even at the end Optimus say's that "Starscream's powerapparently only destroyed those Transformers who were tottally inorganic".It could be said that there bodys had less damage then Starscream's did but the fact is that they were dead....and then brought back by other means.But no indestrustible sparks in the Marvel G1

Maybe, but There is "dead" and then there is dead. In most cases, "dead" to a TransFormer is simply stasis lock, not true death, not an extinguished spark (and yes, I know the concept of a "spark" hadn't been created yet).

Tramp wrote:Maybe, but There is "dead" and then there is dead. In most cases, "dead" to a TransFormer is simply stasis lock, not true death, not an extinguished spark (and yes, I know the concept of a "spark" hadn't been created yet).

You kinda just proved my point.There's no reason to beleave that any other Transformer in the Marvel G1 could not have been repaired from the same kind of damage that Starscream had.And you would think that if he had a ever lasting life force that Ratchet would have said somthing about it when he rebuilt him.And when Bumbblebee was destroyed by G.I.JOE there wasnt much more left of him then there was of Starscream.You got to face fact's somtime.....There's no reason to beleave that there was any indestructible spark's in the Marvel G1.The other universe so us that there was by ethering saying it in print [dream wave,uttimate guide] or by showing us[G1 cartoon,Beast wars/machine's] but theres nothin to suport your claim in the Marvel G1 and G2 story.

Further more all the other Transformers in the G1 cartoon that died stayed dead!!!!!Not counting Optimus Prime or any of the animation errors or the stuff from Japan shows.But in the G1 Marvel they were dieing and coming back all the time.At the end of the underbase story OPrime said that those TF's were DESTROYED not damaged or in stastis lock.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:Maybe, but There is "dead" and then there is dead. In most cases, "dead" to a TransFormer is simply stasis lock, not true death, not an extinguished spark (and yes, I know the concept of a "spark" hadn't been created yet).

You kinda just proved my point.There's no reason to beleave that any other Transformer in the Marvel G1 could not have been repaired from the same kind of damage that Starscream had.And you would think that if he had a ever lasting life force that Ratchet would have said somthing about it when he rebuilt him.And when Bumbblebee was destroyed by G.I.JOE there wasnt much more left of him then there was of Starscream.You got to face fact's somtime.....There's no reason to beleave that there was any indestructible spark's in the Marvel G1.The other universe so us that there was by ethering saying it in print [dream wave,uttimate guide] or by showing us[G1 cartoon,Beast wars/machine's] but theres nothin to suport your claim in the Marvel G1 and G2 story.

Not necessarily true. While the concept of a "spark" only came about during Beast Wars, Starscream's apparent "immortality" had already been established long before the Underbase saga. As for Bumblebee, and GI Joe, the fact is that there was more left, maybe not much more, but there was more. Not only that, but his brain case was still intact as well. In the actual issue where Starscream died, he was blown competely apart. What we see in the later issue are the remaining pieces of him put somewhat back together, or simply held together by the tangled mass of wires and hoses. No part of his body, not even his head was intact, and such severe damage to the brain case is fatal to a TransFormer. So, while the idea that he is indestructible originated in the cartoon, and explained as an indestructible spark by Dreawmawve, It can be applied to Marvel based upon his resurrection from complete annihilation. IF you think about it, the only others to come back were Bumblebee, Grimlock and Jazz, all of whome suffered far less damage. So, there had to be something special about Starscream.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Further more all the other Transformers in the G1 cartoon that died stayed dead!!!!!Not counting Optimus Prime or any of the animation errors or the stuff from Japan shows.But in the G1 Marvel they were dieing and coming back all the time.At the end of the underbase story OPrime said that those TF's were DESTROYED not damaged or in stastis lock.

Actually, that isn't entirely true. They really didn't kill off a lare number of characters and repeatedly bring them back. Very few had their bodies destroyed or heavily damaged, and most who did truely die stayed dead. The Throttlebots, had been heavily damaged but their brain cases survived to be put into RC cars at one point until their bodies could be repaired. Also, remember the term "stasis lock" also wasn't invented yet, though a lot of terms that came later have been applied to earlier Marvel and cartoon material in the form of retcons. In essence, that is what we are talking about here—a retcon.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:Maybe, but There is "dead" and then there is dead. In most cases, "dead" to a TransFormer is simply stasis lock, not true death, not an extinguished spark (and yes, I know the concept of a "spark" hadn't been created yet).

You kinda just proved my point.There's no reason to beleave that any other Transformer in the Marvel G1 could not have been repaired from the same kind of damage that Starscream had.And you would think that if he had a ever lasting life force that Ratchet would have said somthing about it when he rebuilt him.And when Bumbblebee was destroyed by G.I.JOE there wasnt much more left of him then there was of Starscream.You got to face fact's somtime.....There's no reason to beleave that there was any indestructible spark's in the Marvel G1.The other universe so us that there was by ethering saying it in print [dream wave,uttimate guide] or by showing us[G1 cartoon,Beast wars/machine's] but theres nothin to suport your claim in the Marvel G1 and G2 story.

Not necessarily true. While the concept of a "spark" only came about during Beast Wars, Starscream's apparent "immortality" had already been established long before the Underbase saga. As for Bumblebee, and GI Joe, the fact is that there was more left, maybe not much more, but there was more. Not only that, but his brain case was still intact as well. In the actual issue where Starscream died, he was blown competely apart. What we see in the later issue are the remaining pieces of him put somewhat back together, or simply held together by the tangled mass of wires and hoses. No part of his body, not even his head was intact, and such severe damage to the brain case is fatal to a TransFormer. So, while the idea that he is indestructible originated in the cartoon, and explained as an indestructible spark by Dreawmawve, It can be applied to Marvel based upon his resurrection from complete annihilation. IF you think about it, the only others to come back were Bumblebee, Grimlock and Jazz, all of whome suffered far less damage. So, there had to be something special about Starscream.

Your forgetting about Tantrum and Skydive they were also killed and brought back before G2.The fact is that there isnt enough eveidence to surport your theroy in the G1 Marvel universe.There is in fact more eveidence to say that they all had indestructbile sparks or at least retrevable sparks.And Bumbblebees head being intact shouldnt be a point for you in proving your point......since you beleave all of the DW and UGuide stuff.The spark is in the chest if you see all their stuff as fact.

Actually, the spark is not in the chest. It suffuses the entire being of the TransFormer. One of the most important parts of the body though is the brain case If the neuro-circuitry is damaged, it can permanently kill a TransFormer. If the brain case is destroyed, it will permanently kill them except in the case of an aberrant spark like Starscream's. That was my point about Bumblebee and the Throttlebots. Their briancasing was undamaged. Their neuro-circuitry completely intact. The most important part of the body on a TransFormer is his or her brain case—their mind. As long as that is intact, most of the time, you can bring him or her back. This was definately true in the Marvel run. In every instancew where a character was "killed" and brought back their minds were always intact, Their neuro engrams, their brains, their neuro-circuitry. These remained intact. It was just the body that was damaged of "destroyed" With Starscream, after the Underbase, his enitre body was destroyed, head and all. Nothing was intact. Nothing was in one piece. Even the pic you posted showed catastrophic damage to every part of his body, including the head and brain casing.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Further more all the other Transformers in the G1 cartoon that died stayed dead!!!!!Not counting Optimus Prime or any of the animation errors or the stuff from Japan shows.But in the G1 Marvel they were dieing and coming back all the time.At the end of the underbase story OPrime said that those TF's were DESTROYED not damaged or in stastis lock.

Actually, that isn't entirely true. They really didn't kill off a lare number of characters and repeatedly bring them back. Very few had their bodies destroyed or heavily damaged, and most who did truely die stayed dead. The Throttlebots, had been heavily damaged but their brain cases survived to be put into RC cars at one point until their bodies could be repaired. Also, remember the term "stasis lock" also wasn't invented yet, though a lot of terms that came later have been applied to earlier Marvel and cartoon material in the form of retcons. In essence, that is what we are talking about here—a retcon.

But a retcon is after the fact....and since this retcon as you just called it takes place long after the fact that the story ended and is nolonger being published by the same publisher and there is no contination of this G1 story line you cant retcon it.It's over as far as the story go'sYou cant retcon a story that has its ending.For your self you can try to explain it but you cant say that it is story fact.Only the origanal publisher or a publisher who wants to continue the story and gets the rights to do so can retcon thiss kind of thing.Any of us who try to do that are just writing fan fic.

Tramp wrote:Actually, the spark is not in the chest. It suffuses the entire being of the TransFormer. One of the most important parts of the body though is the brain case If the neuro-circuitry is damaged, it can permanently kill a TransFormer. If the brain case is destroyed, it will permanently kill them except in the case of an aberrant spark like Starscream's. That was my point about Bumblebee and the Throttlebots. Their briancasing was undamaged. Their neuro-circuitry completely intact. The most important part of the body on a TransFormer is his or her brain case—their mind. As long as that is intact, most of the time, you can bring him or her back. This was definately true in the Marvel run. In every instancew where a character was "killed" and brought back their minds were always intact, Their neuro engrams, their brains, their neuro-circuitry. These remained intact. It was just the body that was damaged of "destroyed" With Starscream, after the Underbase, his enitre body was destroyed, head and all. Nothing was intact. Nothing was in one piece. Even the pic you posted showed catastrophic damage to every part of his body, including the head and brain casing.

You are right about that point but we dont know how much damage was substain to the other Transformers Starscream killed off in the underbase saga.

Tramp what did you mean by." Starscream's apparent "immortality" had already been established long before the Underbase saga."Did you meen that in the case of Marvel G1 or G1 in general?

Loki120 wrote:Transformers were treated a lot more like just robots with A.I.s for brains in the comics. Starscream's "death" because of the Underbase and subsequent rebirth had nothing to do with a spark, indestructible or otherwise. Several Decepticons were obliterated by Omega Supreme, and were promptly reactivated by Scorponok's crew years later. And then there was the case of Optimus Prime, who was saved on a floppy disk - where was the spark there? So basically, it was almost always possible to bring back destroyed Transformers in the comics, Starscream was no exception.

Even then, going by the Furman written story, Starscream was still alive, even directly after the Underbase. His skeletal body was blowing crap up when he was found by Darkwing and Dreadwind. His mind kept alive by the residual energies of the Underbase.

Okay, apparently this was completely overlooked during the time of bickering on this thread. Starscreams deaths and resurrections were no different than any other Transformer, and in the case of the Underbase, Starscream wasn't utterly destroyed.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Tramp what did you mean by." Starscream's apparent "immortality" had already been established long before the Underbase saga."Did you meen that in the case of Marvel G1 or G1 in general?

G1 in general. More accurately, TF in general. He's proven to be pretty much "immortal" up through Cybertron. Remember in Armada, his entire body was destroyed, yet he came back in Energon in a similar fashion as in the old G1 cartoon, like a spectre. Even in Cybertron, after the battle on Gigantion where he was "apparently" destroyed, he appeared to Galvatron as a Spectre on a Helliish throne, and other evidence suggested he was alive, which is why Landmine went after him at the end of the series.

So, yes, I mean in general, Starscream is pretty much "immortal". His body may be destroyed, but he always comes back.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Tramp what did you mean by." Starscream's apparent "immortality" had already been established long before the Underbase saga."Did you meen that in the case of Marvel G1 or G1 in general?

G1 in general. More accurately, TF in general. He's proven to be pretty much "immortal" up through Cybertron. Remember in Armada, his entire body was destroyed, yet he came back in Energon in a similar fashion as in the old G1 cartoon, like a spectre. Even in Cybertron, after the battle on Gigantion where he was "apparently" destroyed, he appeared to Galvatron as a Spectre on a Helliish throne, and other evidence suggested he was alive, which is why Landmine went after him at the end of the series.

So, yes, I mean in general, Starscream is pretty much "immortal". His body may be destroyed, but he always comes back.

I just wish it was that eazy to make sence of it all.Marvel's G1 story line was just very different then any other when it came to life and death.

Tramp wrote:So, yes, I mean in general, Starscream is pretty much "immortal". His body may be destroyed, but he always comes back.

That's preaty much the case with ALL of them.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Tramp what did you mean by." Starscream's apparent "immortality" had already been established long before the Underbase saga."Did you meen that in the case of Marvel G1 or G1 in general?

G1 in general. More accurately, TF in general. He's proven to be pretty much "immortal" up through Cybertron. Remember in Armada, his entire body was destroyed, yet he came back in Energon in a similar fashion as in the old G1 cartoon, like a spectre. Even in Cybertron, after the battle on Gigantion where he was "apparently" destroyed, he appeared to Galvatron as a Spectre on a Helliish throne, and other evidence suggested he was alive, which is why Landmine went after him at the end of the series.

So, yes, I mean in general, Starscream is pretty much "immortal". His body may be destroyed, but he always comes back.

I just wish it was that eazy to make sence of it all.Marvel's G1 story line was just very different then any other when it came to life and death.

Yes, and no. There were quite a few who died and never came back.

Whiner-tron wrote:

Tramp wrote:So, yes, I mean in general, Starscream is pretty much "immortal". His body may be destroyed, but he always comes back.

That's preaty much the case with ALL of them.

Not really. In most cases, true death is permanent. One of the major differences between us and TransFormers, aside from their ability to change shape, is that they are much harder to truely kill Even massive damage will heal eventually or can be repaired. It really takes sustained catastrophic damage or the destruction of their brains to truely kill them; to extinguish their sparks.

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Tramp what did you mean by." Starscream's apparent "immortality" had already been established long before the Underbase saga."Did you meen that in the case of Marvel G1 or G1 in general?

G1 in general. More accurately, TF in general. He's proven to be pretty much "immortal" up through Cybertron. Remember in Armada, his entire body was destroyed, yet he came back in Energon in a similar fashion as in the old G1 cartoon, like a spectre. Even in Cybertron, after the battle on Gigantion where he was "apparently" destroyed, he appeared to Galvatron as a Spectre on a Helliish throne, and other evidence suggested he was alive, which is why Landmine went after him at the end of the series.

So, yes, I mean in general, Starscream is pretty much "immortal". His body may be destroyed, but he always comes back.

I just wish it was that eazy to make sence of it all.Marvel's G1 story line was just very different then any other when it came to life and death.

Yes, and no. There were quite a few who died and never came back.

I beleave that if the series had continued that most if not all would have been back sooner or lator.All it would have taken was ether fan desire or that of the writer.The only ones that had a realy hard chance of returning would have been any of them that were earen by Unicron.Thats just the way it was in the Marvel G1 run.