The Energon Pub

VioMeTriX wrote:well i think your long drawn out defending yourself speaks volumes, and the exact point i try to make.

Sorry Megs, but I have to agree. Please take this as constructive criticism and not a personal attack, but the attitude of your posts is going to make you more enemies than friends.

Tresob wrote:Now, as for all this debate about complaining or not complaining:
I think it's helpful for retailers and manufacturers to hear from consumers who are nearing their limits of what they are willing to spend. If they heed genuine warning signs, then it will prevent them from overproduction. If they think they can sell more than we can buy, they'll end up with losses. It helps more, however, if we can voice those complaints in a civil, respectful, and articulate manner...otherwise, we just look like whiners who want something for nothing.

It cuts both ways though. If people are going to take issue with price rises, then if such discussions are going to be civil, respectful and articulate, then there's another adjective which needs to get thrown into the mix - informed.

It's one thing if retailers are engaging in predatory pricing or other either they or manufacturers are engaging in other anti-competitive practices. By all means, it's perfectly reasonable in that case to hurl outrage from the rooftops, because that literally is companies trying to take consumers for a ride.

However what about if it's because manufacturing costs go up? Doesn't that consumer, in the interests of making civil, respectful and articulate comments have a responsibility to actually inform themselves as to why? Is there some issue say, driving up the cost of oil, or gravely affecting the economy - in which case lobbying for change in that area would force either a higher value dollar or a reduction in plastics and shipping costs respectively?

Is it working conditions greatly improving in impoverished markets and driving up labour costs - in which case complaining about prices rising, effectively become an instance of said consumers lobbying for sweatshop conditions (a defacto form of modern day slavery) for those making said products?

The fact is that American companies, as this has proven, will generally hit the American consumer with price rises when their options for doing so overseas have effectively run out or if doing so will cause those markets to self-destruct. With the rise of China, that role may shift to it from the US if the Renminbi becomes the default currency in the world instead of the Greenback, which it may well do.

The old saying is that to be informed is to be empowered. Ignorant rants simply come across as spoiled tantrums not to be taken seriously. Informed arguments however, come across as persuasive and profound arguments put forth by informed and intelligent lobbyists.

Just something for people to consider in this and other areas of life...

Just got back from TRU: got Beast Hunters Voyager Optimus. BH Voyagers are $21.99.

I also went to Walmart and 2 Targets. All had worse selections than TRU and the prices are no better.

Is it working conditions greatly improving in impoverished markets and driving up labour costs - in which case complaining about prices rising, effectively become an instance of said consumers lobbying for sweatshop conditions (a defacto form of modern day slavery) for those making said products?

This is obscene. Because an american fan wants to express his opinions on rising prices, He suddenly supports sweatshops and slave labor?.. It boggles my mind that I am being told that I need to respect people while this guy is spared while making comments like this.

The old saying is that to be informed is to be empowered. Ignorant rants simply come across as spoiled tantrums not to be taken seriously. Informed arguments however, come across as persuasive and profound arguments put forth by informed and intelligent lobbyists.

Noone should have to be well versed in economics and the prices of transformers in other countrie to come into a casual thread and chat about the prices of toys in their stores. As I said befor , you are going to far with this.
Nothing I said was ignorant. Im not debating economics. Im saying quite simply that anyone has the right to express concern anout prices in a thread dedicated to that subject without being heckled or chastised.
You arent happy when someone acknowledges you pay more. You arent happy when someone acknowledges it isnt fair. You seriously just want americans to STOP TALKING ABOUT IT ALL TOGETHER.

As for your informed and intelligent lobbying, While some may find it interesting, your primary point is pure speculation.
Show me one instance where I have made an incorrect comment due to being ignorant of a fact. Likewise, Provide one comment where I come off as spoiled.
I will always defend myself If I believe someone has misinterpreted me, or insulting me weather it be blatent, or undercover.Even if it takes me a couple paragraphs to do so.
If I make a few enemies in the process of defending the correct side of an arguement then so be it.

Postby GuyIncognito » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:47 pm

Just got back from TRU: got Beast Hunters Voyager Optimus. BH Voyagers are $21.99.

I also went to Walmart and 2 Targets. All had worse selections than TRU and the prices are no better.

Really? My walmart is usually a little better than toys r us. Deluxes at walmart generally being a few dollars less than at toys r us.
Im not sure about voyagers though.
I guess I really dont have a HUGE problem with paying 17.99 for deluxes since Ive bought almost every single deluxe figure IO own off ebay for 50 to 100 bucks.
As for voyagers I have NO PROBLEM shelling out 25/30 dollars for a big ole grimlock!!

Can I ask what figure you were looking for? Where on the map are you located?

Megs for Press you have a pm

oops

its all good
my fault (which was nicely pointed out) for posting it in public.

VioMeTriX wrote:its all good
my fault (which was nicely pointed out) for posting it in public.

LOL I made the same mistake. You have p.m.

I have an Ultra Magnus.

In other words, I can't deal with you lot right now.

Seriously ... one week ... can we just go one week with playing nicely? We're tired of having to deal with reports.

So yeah ... play nicely, I, or another Mod will be along later to sort it out and I dunno, throw some warnings around or something.

One thing I should mention in the hopes it'll kill off part of the drama- when I saw communicating further with m4p was pointless, and when guy started up, I meant what I said- I put them both on ignore. I'm bringing this up, because if either of you are confrontationally respinding to my posts ( and I suspect one of you might be) you're wasting your time. I'm not seeing them, I have no interest in replying to them, so any responses you give will be the effectively pointless.

Hopefully putting that out there kills off a huge part of this. I'm only sorry I didn't use the ignore option earlier in this thread.

Our hobby "to sort of paraphrase Hotrod in the 1986 movie".........is getting expensive! Maybe I mentioned it already but....just focus on a specific line and not the whole shebang itself. Save you a lot of times eating (eating(?) ) food on the cheap side (after purchasing MP Soundwave.......and before that MP-10)........Primus! When will I ever learn

However what about if it's because manufacturing costs go up? Doesn't that consumer, in the interests of making civil, respectful and articulate comments have a responsibility to actually inform themselves as to why? Is there some issue say, driving up the cost of oil, or gravely affecting the economy - in which case lobbying for change in that area would force either a higher value dollar or a reduction in plastics and shipping costs respectively?

For the consumer of luxury goods or sundry items, it doesn't really make a difference why costs go up.

Consumers (hopefully) budget such items. If the cost of those items goes up, then they (assumably) end up buying fewer units. Even if costs have gone up for a good reason, that reason is not going to mean I make more money. If the company can't reduce prices, that doesn't mean I make more money.

One of the reasons why toys like Squinkies became so popular, and why Hasbro got involved in micro-figures, is precisely because manufacturers recognized parents can't afford to buy kids complete lines of action figures at $9.99 a pop...but for $9.99 they can get ten little versions of those same characters. It's probably why some collectors find Kreons so addicting...I feel like I bought all of the Predacons for the price of one deluxe action figure. (And they take up less space!) The same idea goes for Cyberverse and Botshots.

See, Hasbro responds to consumer complaints...by selling simplified, smaller, and therefore cheaper versions of its characters. But now we are far removed from the retailer conversation...

Tresob wrote:

However what about if it's because manufacturing costs go up? Doesn't that consumer, in the interests of making civil, respectful and articulate comments have a responsibility to actually inform themselves as to why? Is there some issue say, driving up the cost of oil, or gravely affecting the economy - in which case lobbying for change in that area would force either a higher value dollar or a reduction in plastics and shipping costs respectively?

For the consumer of luxury goods or sundry items, it doesn't really make a difference why costs go up.

Except that nothing exists in a vacuum in this world, and plastic goods are at the very least, the exception to what you've said here - even when they fall into the "luxury goods" category. Ultimately your 2 driving factors in cost increases of plastics goods (factoring out any devaluation of the dollar) are going to be the cost of labour and the cost of oil (which covers both materials and shipping). With materials, if the cost of oil is going up, then it's going to affect everything, including food and power, meaning that driving factor is going to be a far more universal concern. Granted if food costs are through the roof because of it, then people aren't exactly going to be more worried about toy price rises. However it becomes one more thing that adds fuel to the fire (no pun intended).

The other issue in there is labour. With companies having moved production to places like China, you run into some cans of worms in terms of issues like economic slavery. In fact it's telling that Alan Hassenfeld now fights those sorts of conditions in factories servicing the toy industry. In this situation, cheap labour costs means sweatshop labour conditions and even workers being abused, as well as possibly unsafe work environments. Conversely, labour costs going up means an increase in those conditions which is actually a win for justice and ethics in those situations.

Of course, the irony there is that when people complain about price rises which are due to working conditions improving, then they are effectively complaining about a move away from people being subjected to sweatshop conditions and the economic slavery which goes with it.

Of course the labour issue is one which is invisible to most consumers and reveals a very uncomfortable truth about cheap consumer products in the developed world- purely because it transcends consumerism too the human condition and makes every consumer product from these countries similar to "blood diamonds" in many respects.

Tresob wrote:One of the reasons why toys like Squinkies became so popular, and why Hasbro got involved in micro-figures, is precisely because manufacturers recognized parents can't afford to buy kids complete lines of action figures at $9.99 a pop...but for $9.99 they can get ten little versions of those same characters. It's probably why some collectors find Kreons so addicting...I feel like I bought all of the Predacons for the price of one deluxe action figure. (And they take up less space!) The same idea goes for Cyberverse and Botshots.

See, Hasbro responds to consumer complaints...by selling simplified, smaller, and therefore cheaper versions of its characters. But now we are far removed from the retailer conversation...

A couple of things here. First off, Cyberverse figures aren't a new invention. In fact you might have noticed that what are now Cyberverse figures, were formerly Scout Class and Legends Class figures.

Secondly, even that hasn't removed the complaints. People complain about plastic being in place of die cast, or about figures getting smaller, or about figures getting hollow- unsurprising as this is essentially an issue of value for people. The problem here is that those people complaining are doing so because they haven't bothered to understand what the driving factors are. If that happened, then you'd probably see complaints being alot more constructive, right down to the types of alternatives they expect from Hasbro. Heck in the case of working condition improvement, you'd probably see many ffans welcoming the price rises.

Hasbro and Takara have been making small, simple, cheap Transformers since 1984. And the same goes for every size class. I don't think the mix of sizes has changed much at all over 30 years.

And while prices have gone up, when you adjust for inflation, they really haven't. They may have even gone down in price. They've been able to keep prices down by lowering manufacturing costs, which they've done by eliminating die cast metal parts and reusing molds. While the quality of construction may not be the same, we've gained a lot in terms of transformation and articulation. I'm OK with trading die cast for elbows, knees, and legs that separate.

So basically, size and price have stayed relatively the same, while the figures have improved in some ways and declined in others. It all balances out, in my view. We still get awesome toys at an affordable price.

if you think thats bad i was at rite aid and happened to go down the toy aisle and noticed that deluxes were at 19.99 what a rip off

yeah it doesnt suprise me, any drug store has inflated toy prices.