The Energon Pub

Shadowman wrote:Where does it say "THIS IS SUPERNATURAL!" in a way that can't be simply explained away with "Sam is constantly hallucinating after touching that AllSpark fragment.

I would say it was said in what you would call the last "hallucination".

Same was dead, and while he was dead he communicated with the dead Primes.The Primes told him that he was always destined to find the Matrix and save the life of the last Prime.They then told him to return to his life, and fulfill his destiny.

Which he did.

The supernatural is, by definition, an event or object that can't be explained. Now find something that can't be explained. Otherwise, you're trying to see something that isn't there.

Already have.

Its right there.
What ever you want to call it, it wasnt an hallucination and cant be explained a science.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Where does it say "THIS IS SUPERNATURAL!" in a way that can't be simply explained away with "Sam is constantly hallucinating after touching that AllSpark fragment.

I would say it was said in what you would call the last "hallucination".

Same was dead, and while he was dead he communicated with the dead Primes.The Primes told him that he was always destined to find the Matrix and save the life of the last Prime.They then told him to return to his life, and fulfill his destiny.

Which he did.

He wasn't dead, but very, very close to it. The Primes spoke to him in that coma-dream type deal, having, as I explained, been "downloaded" into Sam's brain from the AllSpark fragment, and I wouldn't doubt some influence from interacting with energy from the Matrix-dust. He was revived using the same AllSpark energy that was causing his problems, which I will go out on a limb and say also repaired the Matrix. They used the word "Destiny" because if there's one thing ancient Transformers love, it's being melodramatic.

Shadowman wrote:
He wasn't dead, but very, very close to it.

He was dead.

The paramedics were trying to revive him and even showed signs of giving up trying

The Primes spoke to him in that coma-dream type deal, having, as I explained, been "downloaded" into Sam's brain from the AllSpark fragment, and I wouldn't doubt some influence from interacting with energy from the Matrix-dust. He was revived using the same AllSpark energy that was causing his problems, which I will go out on a limb and say also repaired the Matrix. They used the word "Destiny" because if there's one thing ancient Transformers love, it's being melodramatic.

The Primes spoke to him from the after life, which may or may not have been made possible by the download you spoke of.

But the message the writers intended to convey with that scene was that Sam was dead, and the Primes spoke from the after life.

Wether Sam was revived from the Primes, Allspark energy, Matrix dust ,the paramedics work or a combination of all may be debatable.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:
He wasn't dead, but very, very close to it.

He was dead.

The paramedics were trying to revive him and even showed signs of giving up trying

Defibrillators don't always work. Much less so on a living being.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:The Primes spoke to him from the after life, which may or may not have been made possible by the download you spoke of.

But the message the writers intended to convey with that scene was that Sam was dead, and the Primes spoke from the after life.

Alternatively, no they didn't.

Shadowman wrote:Defibrillators don't always work. Much less so on a living being.

True...but I dont see the point of bringing that up.

If he was alive, they wouldnt have needed to even try useing them.

Alternatively, no they didn't.

They did sucseed 100% with that.

Nice reply BTW, even thou we dont agree often, I normally respect you for well thought out replies.

On Written intent:
We have to bear in mind that the writers initial layout has to pass through Bay.These writers are good, acceptable for the level that's expected to graduate from mainstream Hollywood writing schools{*1).Bay, however, is the one who will twist things to see what he wants, at the cost of murder.Case in point: The cube; He chose it and regretted it enough to never bring it back,like so many other things in these films he made.There's no reliability that Robot Heaven was intended as a Robot Heaven by the writers vector.It may have been a Bay directed vision.
Furthermore, and on the other hand, Tf1 establishes that every (known) ancient civilization (which began to think along permanent monumental lines)was linked to Cybertronian visitors(*2).Here, all recorded evolutions of standard spirit worship into (Ancient) technology of religion
(that is,designate deity,issue sphere of influence,offer gifts,win intervention,accidentally offend through too many/few gifts or too little/too much hounding (or wrong type),win wrath,find opposing deity to stabilize CON-sequencences,[Hyuk!], etc, repeat).
passes directly through the involvement or at least presence of the TFs.So all magic is tech,and all tech is magic.There are no exceptions,even if the tech base that created the Allspark is magical to the TFs, it's still a technological construct even to them.
*The fact that it's Sacred is due to the fact that it can repopulate their dying race.
*The fact that it's a stroke of luck that another race made it for them (because they can't),and that it has to be found and HAS granted them life in the past, and will do so again, is tha fact that makes it 'of spiritual significance'.
*The fact that it's the pinnacle of unfathomable-to-barely-guessable (and diminishing) technical achievement in their society(*3) (and self guiding) is what makes it Godlike.They have to appease it,as the Humans had to appease Gods, in order to get something out of it related to what they wanted rather than what it 'feels like' doing.
They react to it, and it answers to itself,because the TFs aren't yet at the evolutionary plataeu to truly replicate its capabilities or remote control its' format.Once they do, it's nothing to them,romanticized only by the nostalgics.

There is Magic, but in the way G1 Jazz sees music as Magical,or that Sam sees Mikaela as Magical,or that G1 Wheelie would tell a tale about the Allspark,or that we see the Dinobots or the Generations line as Magical.It's a matter of luck and wonder.
Optimus is a more realistic version of magic-albeit fully self propelled-for permanently being the being that others need him to be from moment to moment.Does this mean we are twisting it up to see him as an Angel?No.Nor is he faking his behaviour,tho.He bacame the leader by a matter of luck and wonder,and stayed alive for the same reason.

On Sams' death:
There are no injuries indicative of death.

(*1) Provided they aren't writing about Transformers with backstory, but about Transforming aliens based on the Transformers template.They suffer badly at the TF backstory.
(*2)That is, TF visitors.There is no evidence that the Primes came from, went to or contributed to the settlement & 'cyber'forming of Cybertron. If anything, their 'childer' are suggested to be barely shepherded savages, at least in passing glance.
(*3)Without being Taboo or harmful and therefore 'tainted' or 'Infidel/Demonic'.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:On Written intent:
We have to bear in mind that the writers initial layout has to pass through Bay.These writers are good, acceptable for the level that's expected to graduate from mainstream Hollywood writing schools{*1).Bay, however, is the one who will twist things to see what he wants, at the cost of murder.Case in point: The cube; He chose it and regretted it enough to never bring it back,like so many other things in these films he made.There's no reliability that Robot Heaven was intended as a Robot Heaven by the writers vector.It may have been a Bay directed vision.
Furthermore, and on the other hand, Tf1 establishes that every (known) ancient civilization (which began to think along permanent monumental lines)was linked to Cybertronian visitors(*2).Here, all recorded evolutions of standard spirit worship into (Ancient) technology of religion
(that is,designate deity,issue sphere of influence,offer gifts,win intervention,accidentally offend through too many/few gifts or too little/too much hounding (or wrong type),win wrath,find opposing deity to stabilize CON-sequencences,[Hyuk!], etc, repeat).
passes directly through the involvement or at least presence of the TFs.So all magic is tech,and all tech is magic.There are no exceptions,even if the tech base that created the Allspark is magical to the TFs, it's still a technological construct even to them.
*The fact that it's Sacred is due to the fact that it can repopulate their dying race.
*The fact that it's a stroke of luck that another race made it for them (because they can't),and that it has to be found and HAS granted them life in the past, and will do so again, is tha fact that makes it 'of spiritual significance'.
*The fact that it's the pinnacle of unfathomable-to-barely-guessable (and diminishing) technical achievement in their society(*3) (and self guiding) is what makes it Godlike.They have to appease it,as the Humans had to appease Gods, in order to get something out of it related to what they wanted rather than what it 'feels like' doing.
They react to it, and it answers to itself,because the TFs aren't yet at the evolutionary plataeu to truly replicate its capabilities or remote control its' format.Once they do, it's nothing to them,romanticized only by the nostalgics.

There is Magic, but in the way G1 Jazz sees music as Magical,or that Sam sees Mikaela as Magical,or that G1 Wheelie would tell a tale about the Allspark,or that we see the Dinobots or the Generations line as Magical.It's a matter of luck and wonder.
Optimus is a more realistic version of magic-albeit fully self propelled-for permanently being the being that others need him to be from moment to moment.Does this mean we are twisting it up to see him as an Angel?No.Nor is he faking his behaviour,tho.He bacame the leader by a matter of luck and wonder,and stayed alive for the same reason.

Sorry but I dont see the point.

On Sams' death:
There are no injuries indicative of death.

....that we can see with the naked eye.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:On Sams' death:
There are no injuries indicative of death.

....that we can see with the naked eye.

Well, he wasn't hit, he has no visible injuries, and the fact that he was perfectly fine moments later shows he didn't suffer any major internal damage. So...yeah, no fatal injuries.

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:On Sams' death:
There are no injuries indicative of death.

....that we can see with the naked eye.

Well, he wasn't hit, he has no visible injuries, and the fact that he was perfectly fine moments later shows he didn't suffer any major internal damage. So...yeah, no fatal injuries.

I think he just got knocked out and burned a little from the blast.

BeastWarsFTW wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:On Sams' death:
There are no injuries indicative of death.

....that we can see with the naked eye.

Well, he wasn't hit, he has no visible injuries, and the fact that he was perfectly fine moments later shows he didn't suffer any major internal damage. So...yeah, no fatal injuries.

I think he just got knocked out and burned a little from the blast.

Me too. He clearly has a few burns, bruises and scraps, but if there were any life-threatening injuries, he wouldn't be climbing on top of Prime a few second afterwords.

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:On Sams' death:
There are no injuries indicative of death.

....that we can see with the naked eye.

Well, he wasn't hit, he has no visible injuries, and the fact that he was perfectly fine moments later shows he didn't suffer any major internal damage. So...yeah, no fatal injuries.

He wasnt moving, he wasnt breathing, he had no pulse, as evident by the actions taken by the paramedics.

He was dead, Which does indeed indicate he had some kind of a fatal injury substantiated by Megatrons fire.

The fact that he was perfectly fine moments later is just more evidence that shows a super natural effect is in play.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:On Sams' death:
There are no injuries indicative of death.

....that we can see with the naked eye.

Well, he wasn't hit, he has no visible injuries, and the fact that he was perfectly fine moments later shows he didn't suffer any major internal damage. So...yeah, no fatal injuries.

He wasnt moving, he wasnt breathing, he had no pulse, as evident by the actions taken by the paramedics.

He was dead, Which does indeed indicate he had some kind of a fatal injury substantiated by Megatrons fire.

The fact that he was perfectly fine moments later is just more evidence that shows a super natural effect is in play.

True I forgot he had no pulse. I guess the Matrix/All Spark can repair organics as well as non-organics. They did have organic/non-organic transformers Beast machines...(Hate that series. So gay.)

Or, there was no damage, but the energy causing his hallucinations also turned him off after the blast so the Primes could have a heart-to-heart with him. Then that energy turned him back on.

Shadowman wrote:Or, there was no damage, but the energy causing his hallucinations also turned him off after the blast so the Primes could have a heart-to-heart with him. Then that energy turned him back on.

Thats also a good possibility.

Shadowman wrote:Or, there was no damage, but the energy causing his hallucinations also turned him off after the blast so the Primes could have a heart-to-heart with him. Then that energy turned him back on.

Ok, so lets say we accept your "version" of the event......turned off equals dead.

So, he died, and was brought back.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Or, there was no damage, but the energy causing his hallucinations also turned him off after the blast so the Primes could have a heart-to-heart with him. Then that energy turned him back on.

Ok, so lets say we accept your "version" of the event......turned off equals dead.

So, he died, and was brought back.

Or, he wasn't. His heart rate was significantly slowed but his mind was still active.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sorry but I dont see the point.

[/quote]
3 times in a row,huh? Okay!

:Transformers don't go to heaven.Not even in movies.

It LOOKS like a Human religious event but all Human religions have been married to an involvement with Cybertronian culture in the first movie.It is therefore a Cybertronian cultural event recognisable within Human religious lore,which is now being divided between scientific lore and folklore.
Furthermore,Heaven doesn't use magic.Heaven outlaws Magic.

Sam was out of body,projecting himself to the Primes.They guided him.The clouds around him are typical of out of body experience reports.They were alive when he went to them.They used a time-space bridge to send their message to him in 2009 from Prehistory.Humans don't need a Space bridge to Astral project across time as long as they know on every level that it's safe, as Sam did,ultimately,and went to them.They needed to be sure he would know what to do so that they could then hide the Matrix where he and it would find each other.Once absolutely sure he knew what to do,they returned him. They were then free to build the tomb and go offline.
There is no magic involved.It's just a computer (Sam),a Modem (The Matrix)and a wireless remote control (The 7 Primes).
But if you don't see a point yet,don't bother to keep looking for one.

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Or, there was no damage, but the energy causing his hallucinations also turned him off after the blast so the Primes could have a heart-to-heart with him. Then that energy turned him back on.

Ok, so lets say we accept your "version" of the event......turned off equals dead.

So, he died, and was brought back.

Or, he wasn't. His heart rate was significantly slowed but his mind was still active.

Again, the actions of the paramedics indicate he was dead.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:3 times in a row,huh? Okay!

]

Actually I think thats only twice but what ever.

:Transformers don't go to heaven.Not even in movies.

You dont know that.

Simplely put, the Matrix dimension we know sparks return to at death can be called heaven.

It LOOKS like a Human religious event but all Human religions have been married to an involvement with Cybertronian culture in the first movie.It is therefore a Cybertronian cultural event recognisable within Human religious lore,which is now being divided between scientific lore and folklore.

Thats one way to look at it, but its not definitive.

We cant say for sure how much human religion have been effected by Cybertronian culture.

Furthermore,Heaven doesn't use magic.Heaven outlaws Magic.

So, now you have been to heaven?

Thats a perception based argument.I see anything and all things involving a heaven as magical

Sam was out of body,projecting himself to the Primes.They guided him.The clouds around him are typical of out of body experience reports.They were alive when he went to them.They used a time-space bridge to send their message to him in 2009 from Prehistory.Humans don't need a Space bridge to Astral project across time as long as they know on every level that it's safe, as Sam did,ultimately,and went to them.They needed to be sure he would know what to do so that they could then hide the Matrix where he and it would find each other.Once absolutely sure he knew what to do,they returned him. They were then free to build the tomb and go offline.
There is no magic involved.It's just a computer (Sam),a Modem (The Matrix)and a wireless remote control (The 7 Primes).
But if you don't see a point yet,don't bother to keep looking for one.

Twisting what was seen again for your likeing doesnt make it a fact.

Sam was mortally injured, either by a energy discharge or by the blunt impact of Megatrons attack.

In death, he had an of out of body experience, which brought him to the dimension were all dead TF's go, call it the Matrix or TF heavenm, either way its irrelevant.

There they tell him they have always known about him and his destiny.They then tell him to return to his life and save Optimus.

He returns to life, in his hands is a physical representation of the matrix , which was dust only moments before.

Heading the words of the dead primes he returns Optimus to life.

Deny it if you must,but your little fan wank doesnt cover it all.

There was some kind of "magic/supernatural power in play.

Sam was returned to life, the matrix was reformed from dust.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Or, there was no damage, but the energy causing his hallucinations also turned him off after the blast so the Primes could have a heart-to-heart with him. Then that energy turned him back on.

Ok, so lets say we accept your "version" of the event......turned off equals dead.

So, he died, and was brought back.

Or, he wasn't. His heart rate was significantly slowed but his mind was still active.

Again, the actions of the paramedics indicate he was dead.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:3 times in a row,huh? Okay!

]

Actually I think thats only twice but what ever.

:Transformers don't go to heaven.Not even in movies.

You dont know that.

Simplely put, the Matrix dimension we know sparks return to at death can be called heaven.

It LOOKS like a Human religious event but all Human religions have been married to an involvement with Cybertronian culture in the first movie.It is therefore a Cybertronian cultural event recognisable within Human religious lore,which is now being divided between scientific lore and folklore.

Thats one way to look at it, but its not definitive.

We cant say for sure how much human religion have been effected by Cybertronian culture.

Furthermore,Heaven doesn't use magic.Heaven outlaws Magic.

So, now you have been to heaven?

Thats a perception based argument.I see anything and all things involving a heaven as magical

Sam was out of body,projecting himself to the Primes.They guided him.The clouds around him are typical of out of body experience reports.They were alive when he went to them.They used a time-space bridge to send their message to him in 2009 from Prehistory.Humans don't need a Space bridge to Astral project across time as long as they know on every level that it's safe, as Sam did,ultimately,and went to them.They needed to be sure he would know what to do so that they could then hide the Matrix where he and it would find each other.Once absolutely sure he knew what to do,they returned him. They were then free to build the tomb and go offline.
There is no magic involved.It's just a computer (Sam),a Modem (The Matrix)and a wireless remote control (The 7 Primes).
But if you don't see a point yet,don't bother to keep looking for one.

Twisting what was seen again for your likeing doesnt make it a fact.

Sam was mortally injured, either by a energy discharge or by the blunt impact of Megatrons attack.

In death, he had an of out of body experience, which brought him to the dimension were all dead TF's go, call it the Matrix or TF heavenm, either way its irrelevant.

There they tell him they have always known about him and his destiny.They then tell him to return to his life and save Optimus.

He returns to life, in his hands is a physical representation of the matrix , which was dust only moments before.

Heading the words of the dead primes he returns Optimus to life.

Deny it if you must,but your little fan wank doesnt cover it all.

There was some kind of "magic/supernatural power in play.

Sam was returned to life, the matrix was reformed from dust.

Fanwank,now,huh?

2 Klingon photos in your sig and quotes about how amazing you were are, your SELF WANK gets overlooked so that I can Fanwank? Don't use me to pat yourself on the back, dude.

If a Star Trek fan wants to see magic where there is none, go ahead, you'll argue the opposite later when it suits you.
And I didn't declare it either the Matrix or Heaven, I said I nickname it 'twittering' and defined what twittering is, which shows how much you were into this conversation for the conversation.You're the one stupid enough to believe it's Heaven, like a teenage dater the movies get dumbed up for.For 5000 posts,looking forward to your knowledge is a letdown.

*When it challenges your point, you don't see the point.
*When it supercedes your point, I'm twisting it.
*When you agree with it,it's suddenly irrelevant.

You've propably read Lord of the Rings 6 million times.Have you ever read the Bible or Koran or Torah once? Properly? From beginning to end? If not, don't be so absolute about Heaven.Just because the Mass Media will let us know about how schoolkids will write "You are an Angel in Heaven" on a card and leave it at the Site of Lady Dianna's unfortunate death doesn't mean we should sign up to the Hype or sell out our education for a sentence or a moment. I expected more from you.

And yeah, maybe I've been there.Maybe I know a little about the place.

The Matrix Transformed into smaller components, mimicking dust.It's an TF version of sleight of hand.The technology is established as available by the ballbearing Bot combiners that Ravage deploys to steal the Matrix shard.So don't twist it.

There are no indications that Sam is killed by anything.Just a sudden announcement that he is exhibiting signs of death.He is then established to be out of body.So don't twist that.

Transformers don't go to Heaven because it's not part of Transformers lore.You want to argue the Bayverse doesn't comply to TF lore? I'll counter-argue that TF1 introduces the Allspark and TF2 the Matrix without rewriting the lore or Tech base on screen, specifically pertaining to this conversation, and that TF3 press releases state "we are going back to the core mythology".The original post about the TF3 press release is around archive page 5 of the movie forum.I was looking at it 2 days ago.

you know, im with Auto-Smoke and Shadowman on this one, you know why?
because otherwise ROTF is the biggest bucket of fail on the planet.

as it happens i think the movie was written intending a "mystical" explanation and i think the primes were suppossed to be ghosts. but lets face it ghost god robots is just not cool. its the exact lame kind of crap a tottal fan-boi-wankdoodle writes up as his own character...

you know my character can transform into anything and you cant kill him cause hes a god. yeah, right... no

even bay himself said the mystical aspect of ROTF was "crap" his exact words for all you bay-lickers not mine.

i think the non magical explanation is well thought out, well rationalised and is far more suitable and fitting to the TF universe. it also makes the movie much more livable for me.

it is also how i choose to perceive the intent of the film.

as for sam being dead or not, hair splitting. if he was dead it was for moments, and humnas have been revived after longer periods by purely scientific technological means. unless im going to be now told that every case of a human being revived from death was magic and defribulators are really a magical portal to the ghost-god-primes... if you put forward a beleivable and entertaining explanation of this then you get a cookie.

i do not see sams revival as diffinative proof of the supernatural.

the matrix is a mechanical, not spiritual device, it has the technologie to store and deliver a message as well as a jolt of energy capable of reviving a being. just like a defribulator with a thumbdrive attatched really. as for it crumbling to dust and reassembling, technological, not spiritual... along the lines of nanobots and the reedman bot.

dear gods next it will be the TF religeon knocking on my door giving me pamphlets and asking for donations...

once again for clarification
god robots=lame not cool just lazy

shadowynne wrote:god robots=lame not cool just lazy

Oh trust me, they CAN be done right. The Fallen was way more impressive in War Within.

And you're right. A bunch of thought-out scientific explanations is better than "it's magic derp-de-derp."

This is a great debate. I am, however, confused at how most of the players in this debate have become 100% convinced of their correctness. I think both sides have used the "you clearly weren't paying attention to the movie" or "you only saw what you wanted to see" lines. I think it is quite obvious that everyone involved has a pretty solid base of knowledge regarding the movies.

I think it can be interpreted both ways. As stated earlier, the TF franchise does not shy away from the mystical, but that doesn't mean that everything that looks mystical is mystical.

When I watched this scene I thought it smacked of the mystical, but I much prefer the scientific (or, so-advanced-it-looks-like-magic) explanation.

What was Bay trying to express? I don't think we can tell from the movie. In interviews, Bay does mention (as pointed out earlier) that there was a mystical aspect in TF2. I assume that he is referring to Sam's "resurrection", but, again, I don't know and I really don't think there is sufficient evidence in the film. Not really sure how everyone is reaching such solid conclusions. Like, solid enough for the fantastic fanwank war it seems we are about to witness.

And do we care what Bay was trying to express? I understand that is important, but when it comes to my personal enjoyment of the film I have no problem with "alternate explanations". This is nothing new to TF. I mean, how else do we reconcile Heavy Metal War and The Secret of Omega Supreme?

F Prime wrote:This is a great debate. I am, however, confused at how most of the players in this debate have become 100% convinced of their correctness. I think both sides have used the "you clearly weren't paying attention to the movie" or "you only saw what you wanted to see" lines. I think it is quite obvious that everyone involved has a pretty solid base of knowledge regarding the movies.

I think it can be interpreted both ways. As stated earlier, the TF franchise does not shy away from the mystical, but that doesn't mean that everything that looks mystical is mystical.

When I watched this scene I thought it smacked of the mystical, but I much prefer the scientific (or, so-advanced-it-looks-like-magic) explanation.

What was Bay trying to express? I don't think we can tell from the movie. In interviews, Bay does mention (as pointed out earlier) that there was a mystical aspect in TF2. I assume that he is referring to Sam's "resurrection", but, again, I don't know and I really don't think there is sufficient evidence in the film. Not really sure how everyone is reaching such solid conclusions. Like, solid enough for the fantastic fanwank war it seems we are about to witness.

And do we care what Bay was trying to express? I understand that is important, but when it comes to my personal enjoyment of the film I have no problem with "alternate explanations". This is nothing new to TF. I mean, how else do we reconcile Heavy Metal War and The Secret of Omega Supreme?

well said sir. kudos to you on your clear thinking.
in my book nothing else need be said.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:Fanwank,now,huh?

What do you call adding details to a story that werent presented in it?

2 Klingon photos in your sig and quotes about how amazing you were are, your SELF WANK gets overlooked so that I can Fanwank? Don't use me to pat yourself on the back, dude.

Why are you taking this personally?

Dont confuse your over inflated self worth with me bud.I have no need to "pat myself" on the back.Why your taking this personal is beyond me.

And I didn't declare it either the Matrix or Heaven, I said I nickname it 'twittering' and defined what twittering is, which shows how much you were into this conversation for the conversation.

I never said you maid that claim.I was speaking in generalizations.

So, I guess it really shows how much YOU were into this conversation.

You're the one stupid enough to believe it's Heaven,

Wow, not your insulting me??

Shows how weak your argument really is.

like a teenage dater the movies get dumbed up for.

or....they never intended any greater messege.They wrote it dumbed down, for the dumb general audiance.

For 5000 posts,looking forward to your knowledge is a letdown.

And for someone for a great vocabulary, your over all conclusions are ignorant.

*When it challenges your point, you don't see the point.
*When it supercedes your point, I'm twisting it.
*When you agree with it,it's suddenly irrelevant.

*you post irrelevant info,
*you create a "wall of words" hoping its going to make your point relevant
*when your argument challenged your result to childish insults

You've propably read Lord of the Rings 6 million times.

Never read the books.

But I do like the films.

Your conclusionary powers are pretty weak.

Have you ever read the Bible or Koran or Torah once?

The Bible as a child, but admitally I dont recall as much.

The Koran in my early years in college, but those years were full of a lot of experimentation,between that and my ilness my memory of it isint very good.

Never read the Torah.

Properly? From beginning to end? If not, don't be so absolute about Heaven.

And unless you have been there, I suggest you dont believe what you have read about Heaven as absolute.

Just because it was writen does not mean its a fact, I expected more from you.

And yeah, maybe I've been there.Maybe I know a little about the place.

Well, thats nice to know.

The Matrix Transformed into smaller components, mimicking dust.It's an TF version of sleight of hand.The technology is established as available by the ballbearing Bot combiners that Ravage deploys to steal the Matrix shard.So don't twist it.

Your twisting.

You acknowledge that the film "dumbed down" some aspects for the general audience, but your unwilling to see that they just never intended more from those scenes.

Your seeing more then what was there.

""Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"

There are no indications that Sam is killed by anything.

There is a strong indication he's dead by the actions of all those around him.

From the soljers, to the paramedics and Mikals.

Transformers don't go to Heaven because it's not part of Transformers lore.

TF stories have shown a "after life" of sorts for TF'sd.

This can be called "TF Heaven".

It is and has been part of TF lore for some time.

shadowynne wrote:you know, im with Auto-Smoke and Shadowman on this one, you know why?
because otherwise ROTF is the biggest bucket of fail on the planet.

as it happens i think the movie was written intending a "mystical" explanation and i think the primes were suppossed to be ghosts. but lets face it ghost god robots is just not cool. its the exact lame kind of crap a tottal fan-boi-wankdoodle writes up as his own character...

Oooh I'm not saying I dont like their take on the film.To be honest, I wish it were done that way.

But they are "re-writting" what was seen.And I have no problem with people re-writting issues that are inconsistent or things they feel were just stupid.But acknowlidge its your personal re-write and dont try to push it off as fact.

I feel the "mystical explanation" they went with was the stupidest think they could have written.

But that doesnt change the fact that its what was presented.

i do not see sams revival as diffinative proof of the supernatural.

I do in this case because no one was working on him at the time.

Unless you want to consider Mikalas crying and talking to him as working on him.

But then its the power of love that saved him.