The Energon Pub

Good day all,

Here are are some questions for your historians.

I was watching some very old Transformers toys ads, and just the other day I was looking at my old Powermaster Optimus, Piranacons and Metroplex.

And I just wondered. What in your opinions was the turning/ starting points for...

1. Equally nice modes
The one thing that really struck me even as a kid was that you often had one mode that looked decent to good, and one mode that looked crap. The bot modes often looked so forced and their proportions so off, that it didn't quite me so excited as some of the other guys every time a new figure came out. In fact, I think one of the few I felt looked quite decent in both modes were the Predacons.

When I started collecting again with the 2007 movie line, I was immediately struck by the great difference. Many of them had fantastic looking modes in bot or vehicle. Granted, some like Barricade still weren't perfectly proportioned (and DOTM Goblin Barricade is even worse). But the difference is immense.

2. Better articulation
I remember years ago how excited I was with Powermaster Prime. But looking at him now, I'm puzzled. The bot mode looking fugly is one thing, but the whole thing is, in essense, a brick. And likewise for many of the other old toys too.

Yes, recently you still have stuff like Ultimate Prime and the movie Jetfire/ Prime combo (I still think they shouldn't have tried to be too clever and just make removeable Jetfire parts who could just be fixed onto Optimus) But in general articulation is now miles ahead of what it was.

When did having elbows, knees, wrists, and even waist articulation begin?


3. Self containment

Yet one more improvement I'm enjoying and even taking for granted a bit, is the self containment for weapons that many Transformers figures these day sport. I remember way back when if you lost the weapons that was pretty much it. Now most figures are designed to have the weapons stored in one way or another in the vehicle mode itself. Some are really nice, others not so (e.g. Transformers Prime Bulkhead) but in general still a very nice touch compared to the past.

When did this happen?

I'm really interested to know when did this good stuff happen. Which year/decade, which line? I suppose improved engineering and sense of aesthetic had a lot to do with it. I'm just wondering when this good stuff happened.

Cheers!

I first want to start by saying I love the original G1 TF's, and for me it's because of nostalgia. I grew up amazed by them, because at that time they were the best toys to have, hands down.
There is no question that compared to the TF's now, the original ones were pretty limited as far as Bot modes, but we are talking about nearly 30 years of development since.

I have to agree that TF's have come a log way in terms of engineering and now offering in most cases a great Bot mode as well as an Alt mode.

With all the advancements in engineering and manufacturing TF's in the past 28 years, I can't wait to see what they will be like in the next decade.

As far as the question as to when it started, it has been kind of gradual, but I would say around the time G2 started. They just got better and better each line after.

Long live the Transformers....

I think ball joints and all started in beast wars... I could be wrong though.

As for weapon storage, I think It was G2... The new molds that came from there had some form of integrated weapon storage. (Lazer Prime, water/cyclone disk/LED shooting robots) all had their weapons in vehicle mode. Granted, some become parts like the engine block of a car, so if you loose the gun, you're left with a hole in the car/boat/ thing.

I think it became more consistant in BW, where figures had compartments on their bodies to keep guns/throwing weapons/missiles.

While the above comments are fairly accurate they're also a little off. The first example of ball joints being used for articulation that I'm aware of is actually on G1 Wreck Gar, although that toy is still largely in the brick camp. Ball joints became more common place through the G2 line and really became the standard with Beast Wars. Integrated weapons storage was certainly present in G2 but was narrowly preceded by the European/Canadian/Australasian G1.5 toys, some of which then made it into the US G2 line in some form or another. So while advancements continue to be made the early to mid 90s were a very important time in terms of advancements in TF engineering.

Bonecrusher27 wrote:Good day all,

Here are are some questions for your historians.

I was watching some very old Transformers toys ads, and just the other day I was looking at my old Powermaster Optimus, Piranacons and Metroplex.

And I just wondered. What in your opinions was the turning/ starting points for...

1. Equally nice modes
The one thing that really struck me even as a kid was that you often had one mode that looked decent to good, and one mode that looked crap. The bot modes often looked so forced and their proportions so off, that it didn't quite me so excited as some of the other guys every time a new figure came out. In fact, I think one of the few I felt looked quite decent in both modes were the Predacons.

When I started collecting again with the 2007 movie line, I was immediately struck by the great difference. Many of them had fantastic looking modes in bot or vehicle. Granted, some like Barricade still weren't perfectly proportioned (and DOTM Goblin Barricade is even worse). But the difference is immense.

2. Better articulation
I remember years ago how excited I was with Powermaster Prime. But looking at him now, I'm puzzled. The bot mode looking fugly is one thing, but the whole thing is, in essense, a brick. And likewise for many of the other old toys too.

Yes, recently you still have stuff like Ultimate Prime and the movie Jetfire/ Prime combo (I still think they shouldn't have tried to be too clever and just make removeable Jetfire parts who could just be fixed onto Optimus) But in general articulation is now miles ahead of what it was.

When did having elbows, knees, wrists, and even waist articulation begin?


3. Self containment

Yet one more improvement I'm enjoying and even taking for granted a bit, is the self containment for weapons that many Transformers figures these day sport. I remember way back when if you lost the weapons that was pretty much it. Now most figures are designed to have the weapons stored in one way or another in the vehicle mode itself. Some are really nice, others not so (e.g. Transformers Prime Bulkhead) but in general still a very nice touch compared to the past.

When did this happen?

I'm really interested to know when did this good stuff happen. Which year/decade, which line? I suppose improved engineering and sense of aesthetic had a lot to do with it. I'm just wondering when this good stuff happened.

Cheers!

1.) That's all in the eye of the beholder of course so I can't really give a proper answer on that.

2.) Ball joints actually debuted in 1986, f.i. Vortex had them in his shoulders. Still, they really broke though with the introduction of the G2 Cyberjets in 1995, and double swivels were used extensively with the Laser Rods the year prior.

3) Weapon storage can be taken in two ways. Simply putting a weapon on top of a vehicle to create an Attack Mode began as way back as the Constructicons, as each could carry a part of their combiner kibble. That became more commonplace in 1986 and onwards with the non-Diaclone/Microman molds.
Vehicle mode parts becoming guns started with the Turbomasters in 1991 (though a case can be made with Star Saber's nosecone becoming the hilt of his sword), and full integration of weapons started with the Axelerators and Skyscorchers in 1992.

Why do people seem to think that integrating weapons into the Transformer is a GOOD thing? First of all, it robs the weapon(and sometimes the TF itself) of good aesthetics. Secondly, and more importantly, if you lost the weapon on some of the newer TFs, you essentially lost part of the Transformer itself, whereas if you lost one from an old figure, you could merely replace it with a different one.

For instance, if you lost RtS G2 Prime's sword, his alt mode is left without a rear trailer hitch and a stable alt mode. Whereas if you lost Laser Prime's sword, you'd still have an in-tact figure in both modes.

Seems backwards to me.

Your first question can be answered with a lot of opinion. I'm approaching it as when did transformers go from being sweet toys to sweet action figures. For me, that's the G2 cyberjets. Great plane modes; great robot modes. Beast Wars continued this, car robots took it and ran most of the time, and then there were several odd years until CHUG/Animated/Movie toys came back and did it again.

orangeitis wrote:Why do people seem to think that integrating weapons into the Transformer is a GOOD thing? First of all, it robs the weapon(and sometimes the TF itself) of good aesthetics. Secondly, and more importantly, if you lost the weapon on some of the newer TFs, you essentially lost part of the Transformer itself, whereas if you lost one from an old figure, you could merely replace it with a different one.

While you make a good point (Classics Voyager Optimus is another good example of losing the weapons kills the altmode), the POINT of integrated weapons is to prevent losing them. In early TFs, there was often nowhere to put them, they were loose separate parts. Now, there's always somewhere to plug them in so you don't lose the random bits of plastic laying around.

RAcast wrote:

orangeitis wrote:Why do people seem to think that integrating weapons into the Transformer is a GOOD thing? First of all, it robs the weapon(and sometimes the TF itself) of good aesthetics. Secondly, and more importantly, if you lost the weapon on some of the newer TFs, you essentially lost part of the Transformer itself, whereas if you lost one from an old figure, you could merely replace it with a different one.

While you make a good point (Classics Voyager Optimus is another good example of losing the weapons kills the altmode), the POINT of integrated weapons is to prevent losing them. In early TFs, there was often nowhere to put them, they were loose separate parts. Now, there's always somewhere to plug them in so you don't lose the random bits of plastic laying around.

That IS a good idea, I'm not denying that. Sometimes it's implemented well enough, like the CHUG Kup/Swerve mold. But it's cringe-worthy simply seeing Universe Octane's melee weapon because it's just a huge chunk of his alt mode(s).

I guess there are good things and bad things to it, but if it's done wrong, it just simply ruins a figure's aesthetic, IMHO.

Thanks for the replies guys! It seems that Beast Wars played a huge factor... and I think it does make sense considering the sort of poses you'd have animals in, and then what joint would makes most sense - the ball joint.

I'm also astounded that you guys know so much with such long memories... I thought I was 'old' here! lol

orangeitis wrote:
I guess there are good things and bad things to it, but if it's done wrong, it just simply ruins a figure's aesthetic, IMHO.

Yes, and no worse in my opinion than the monstrosity that was Mechcrap.

Bonecrusher27 wrote:

orangeitis wrote:
I guess there are good things and bad things to it, but if it's done wrong, it just simply ruins a figure's aesthetic, IMHO.

Yes, and no worse in my opinion than the monstrosity that was Mechcrap.

I actually quite like Mechcrap. Weapons like DOTM Voyager prime's gun (from takara and hasbro) as well as Lazerbeak's gun were pretty good...

gavinfuzzy wrote:
I actually quite like Mechcrap. Weapons like DOTM Voyager prime's gun (from takara and hasbro) as well as Lazerbeak's gun were pretty good...

I know... in and of itself the weapons were cool. I liked Roadbusters chainsaw and Ratchet's buzzsaw. But I felt that too much wasted plastic was spend on the weapons, which were huge ass and made the smaller deluxes look even smaller. You couldn't lock out the weapons for the Deluxe figures, so then you couldn't display the cool sides to the weapons.

And in the context of being part of the alt mode, Mechtech mounted look like absolute monstrosities. I liked how most of the times weapons can be concealed or blended seamlessly into the alt mode. Mechtech is like a total cheat. One ugly pile of .... mounted onto a very nice looking vehicle.

Bonecrusher27 wrote:Thanks for the replies guys! It seems that Beast Wars played a huge factor... and I think it does make sense considering the sort of poses you'd have animals in, and then what joint would makes most sense - the ball joint.

I'm also astounded that you guys know so much with such long memories... I thought I was 'old' here! lol

Well keep in mind what gets most people collecting toys, it's what we had as kids. . And yeah, Hasbro made such a good decision by bringing Kenner in. It's they who designed the Beast Wars toys and are responsible for ball joints becoming standard. It's a shame Armada was such a step backwards in terms of possibility. :/ I liked armada, but I've only got a few figures; not even nostalgia makes most of the ones I don't have better. XD That said, there are a few REALLY good molds, but for each of those, there's an equally bad one...

The Good: Jetfire-Prime(-Overload)
It makes SUCH an awesome combiner. It's a total brick, but it looks great. I'd easily call the set of three one of my grails.

The Mediocre: Hot Shot
He's...okay. Not particularly bad, but his articulation is just so disappointing. I wish I'd been able to find Jolt, because his Mini-con is great.

The Bad: Side Swipe
OH dear god I can't begin on how much I hate that mold! And it's gotten like...three or four redecos/retools! I'll never understand why, it has derpy arms, an awkward and hindered by gimmickry transformation, and...it looks so dumb. -.- His Mini-con is derpy too...

More Bad: Smokescreen
Who thought this thing was okay? Seriously! Who thought that head gimmick was a good idea!? XD He is the epitome of Visible Head Syndrome! Upside is Liftor is one of my favorite Mini-cons ever; it's such an awesome mold, just a shame he's so heavy, makes him hard to mount on wrist ports as a weapon.