The Energon Pub

- I was about to make a long list of faults in Lastjustice's "logic" (especially since he chose the worst example of Optimus killing, since if he took some more seconds to watch that episode, he would have heard that Optimus destroyed only drones) but that would derail this topic even further into another "Brutallicus Prime is innocent" topic...

Lastjustice wrote:

It is a simple matter of fact, the cartoon Prime would not have put down Demolisher in that fashion, the cartoon Prime WOULD have let him limp away to freedom as much as that might shock you, that's the kind of series G1 was.

And no one magically would have died from demolishers rampage either in G1. So Prime wouldn't have felt he was a threat to bother killing him. In context people did die...sorry Prime would have taken him out.

Prime had apoint where enuff is enuff and put things down. I mean he put down Kremzeek. Being cute didn't stop Prime from pulling the plug. (Basically if it wasn't human or named decepticon it was ok to blow away.) Prime ordered the dinobots to smash up Atlantis when the subatlantians attacked, which likely resulted in some of them dying during the fighting or the place exploding afterwards when Nergril set the self destruct.

Cartoon Prime was never directly responsible for anyone's death, even Megatron didn't die as a result of his battle with Prime because he became Galvatron.

As a commander he's directly reponsible for all deaths inflicted. Which bunch of the Decepticons that got tossed into space were destroyed by Prime himself when he came in with the touch playing. Megatron was going to die if he didn't get help, it wasn't because prime didn't inflict lethal damage or wasn't trying kill him. Which Galvatron pretty much became a whole new character thru out season 3, so for all intents and purposes Prime killed Megatron if you're looking pull techincalities.

Again there's War Dawn.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=649_5Chs ... 2C7ABF2672 @ 4 mins you see Prime blow away several Decepticons. Yeah Prime never kills anyone....sure.

Sigh.

Kremzeek was an unitelligent electric monster, and your other hypothetical situations have no basis in fact because they are simply that, hypothetical. Smashing, no evidence of death. Self destruction, no evidence of death, not even Prime's decision. There is no merit to the argument that if a Decepticon killed people in G1 Prime would have executed him, because that situation would not occur. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

If you're looking to 'pull technicalities', Starscream and the other Decepticons were responsible for those 'deaths', by tossing their wounded comrades out into space when they could have been repaired. With the exception of Megatron they were all perfectly capable of running away and getting on board Astrotrain, and Megatron was still alive when they reached Unicron. Nobody died because of Prime. There is no proof to say Megatron would have died from his injuries. So again, there is no merit to that argument.

The generics from War Dawn? I'll give you that, even though they're generic and possibly just drones. But that scene still does not reinforce your claim that cartoon Prime would execute a beaten enemy, Megatron does order them all to attack him at once after all. At no point does he walk up to one he's put down and shoot it in the head after a cavalier quip.

Simple matter of fact, cold hearted G1 'toon executions wouldn't happen.

Chaoslock wrote:No memorable battles or scenes - at least not like in the first movie, where battles gave a frame to the whole movie: the base attack, the dam, the city - they were good scenes, just like Frenzys attack on Air Force 1, Barricades chase, and the autobots arrival. There were no such scenes in RotF.

What about the forest battle... that was memorable

HoundimusPrime wrote:

Chaoslock wrote:No memorable battles or scenes - at least not like in the first movie, where battles gave a frame to the whole movie: the base attack, the dam, the city - they were good scenes, just like Frenzys attack on Air Force 1, Barricades chase, and the autobots arrival. There were no such scenes in RotF.

What about the forest battle... that was memorable

I give it, that one was a good battle (although I allways think about this cartoon when I think about that scene, and then I can't stop laughing - "I said we all fight together!" )

- I was about to make a long list of faults in Lastjustice's "logic" (especially since he chose the worst example of Optimus killing, since if he took some more seconds to watch that episode,

I did as I posted a link ...oh wait you don't read my posts and just like talking out of your behind. Thanks for playing with your weak sauce reponse.

Kremzeek was an unitelligent electric monster, and your other hypothetical situations have no basis in fact because they are simply that, hypothetical.

There's nothing Hypothetical about..Prime did it in. The Ben 10 it's not as human it's ok murder it logic is faulty. Death was an acceptable course of action...period.

If you're looking to 'pull technicalities', Starscream and the other Decepticons were responsible for those 'deaths', by tossing their wounded comrades out into space when they could have been repaired. With the exception of Megatron they were all perfectly capable of running away and getting on board Astrotrain, and Megatron was still alive when they reached Unicron. Nobody died because of Prime. There is no proof to say Megatron would have died from his injuries. So again, there is no merit to that argument.

No only thing Starscream was guilty of not helping those who had fallen. Thundercracker, Skywarp, and insecticons were dead as doornails when they drifted into space. Completely motionless.They were tossed off the ship before Starscream began fighting over who'd be leader so the Decepticons weren't responsible for their injuries. All damage they took was at the hands of autobots.

Megatron was only one who functioned at all, and he was hanging on by a thread. I wouldn't assume for even an instance if Unicron hadn't summoned Megatron he'd ever returned without outside aid. Megatron as we knew him was dead.

The generics from War Dawn? I'll give you that, even though they're generic and possibly just drones. But that scene still does not reinforce your claim that cartoon Prime would execute a beaten enemy, Megatron does order them all to attack him at once after all. At no point does he walk up to one he's put down and shoot it in the head after a cavalier quip.

He tossed the one liner I'm your worst nightmare to Megatron (which Miekayla says to Wheelie in Rotf.) , which he then promptly blows away the nameless Generic decepticons. He talks trash in Megatron plenty, which is pretty close what prime says in the Forest battle.

"You're old, Megatron. Yesterday's model—ready for the scrap heap!"
"We'll see who's ready for the scrap heap!"
"Junk! That's what you are, junk!"
"Silence!"

— Optimus Prime insults Megatron during their battle

The differences between Movie prime and G1 prime are very small. I mean Animated Wolverine never kills anyone on screen, doesn't mean what he's doing somehow isn't potentially lethal or intended to be. (Movie Wolverine kills tons of people since his claws actually make contact.) At their core they're same character which is the point Im getting at.


Look at this... Heavy Metal war http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFplwGU_lb0 @ 6 mins...All the Decepticons are shoved into the Lava. Prime makes a 1 liner and blasts Megatron not unlike what he did to Demolisher. He believes they ended the war as there was intent to kill the Decepticons....but due to plot armor the Decepticons survived. Not because it's not in Prime's character.

Prime was going blow away megatron in the movie when Megatron asks for mercy...if Hotrod didn't get in the way. So this my Optimus prime never hurts anyone...sorry that's simply not true. The plot might not allow him to do them in all time but he's definitely trying kill them.

Okay, you win. I give up.

Tekka wrote:Okay, you win. I give up.

YES!

SlyTF1 wrote:

Tekka wrote:Okay, you win. I give up.

YES!

Celebrate hard, it's a victory for nonsensical arguments and faulty logic. Shockwave would be ashamed of you.

Tekka wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Tekka wrote:Okay, you win. I give up.

YES!

Celebrate hard, it's a victory for nonsensical arguments and faulty logic. Shockwave would be ashamed of you.

I know, ain't it great?

SlyTF1 wrote:

Tekka wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Tekka wrote:Okay, you win. I give up.

YES!

Celebrate hard, it's a victory for nonsensical arguments and faulty logic. Shockwave would be ashamed of you.

I know, ain't it great?

If that means you're admitting to being nonsensical and illogical, yeah I'd agree that it's pretty great.

Tekka wrote:Okay, you win. I give up.

I'd waited an eternity for this...(gets cheap shotted while gloating.)

Lord, why must you test me so? All I want is the right to shoot lightning at fools.

Lastjustice wrote:

- I was about to make a long list of faults in Lastjustice's "logic" (especially since he chose the worst example of Optimus killing, since if he took some more seconds to watch that episode,

I did as I posted a link ...oh wait you don't read my posts and just like talking out of your behind. Thanks for playing with your weak sauce reponse.

FYI, last juice of a lot of men and one woman, I did read your post, but you are derailing this thread and YOU didn't watch what you linked. Optimus destroyed generic decepticons (that can be drones), that were in far greater number than he, so it is not the same situation as a cold-blooded execution of a crippled con.

Oh well, to lower to your level:
- it's not the americans or the autobots right to point out no-fly zones. It's like pulling a line in the beach, and then being shocked when somebody steps over it. Or feeling the right to shoot at anybody in the vicinity of the line.
- the Decepticons weren't harming anybody until the autobots got close. They were just searching for their leader. Sideways didn't even harm anybody and tried to flee under the radar. Also, they were searching for Demolishor actively even before all of their forces, including the big ACE, OP arrived at the scene. Summary: Any human casualties can be written on the autobots account after disturbing them.
- Prime executing Demolishor: There were methods shown in the first movie how to disable a Bayformer: Optimus knew it, and could have used information if he would have interrogated Demo. But, since movie OP was going for the hero badge, he didn't even gave Demolishor a chance to surrender.
- you're trying to use the american armys moral on an alien lifeform: Now, these lifeforms can be repared, and are in dire need of an unique energy (in both G1 and Bayverse): it doesn't take much of a tactician that it is a much bigger cut to cripple an enemy and then make the enemy take the costs of the repairs than kill the enemys simple soldiers just so they could single out the weaklings.

Optimus destroyed generic decepticons (that can be drones), that were in far greater number than he, so it is not the same situation as a cold-blooded execution of a crippled con.

The point was to illustrate prime using lethal force. Which I did. That was the point other poster tried make on grounds Optimus Prime of G1 never killed anyone or would execute another lifeform. I showed canon examples of both, or intent of such. There's nothing illogical about that. You want to say movies weren't for you (which on topic.), which is fine but Prime being radically different isn't why.

Oh well, to lower to your level:
- it's not the americans or the autobots right to point out no-fly zones. It's like pulling a line in the beach, and then being shocked when somebody steps over it. Or feeling the right to shoot at anybody in the vicinity of the line.

I used it as a term for Earth to demostrate the M.O.(which NEST was from all over the world...not just America since it's time be nitpicking.China clearly didn't want the Decepticons there or they wouldn't have allowed armed forces into their country.) that both the autobots and armed froces were expressing. The Decepticons were TRYING KILL ALL LIFE (converting our machines into a new army, and using knowledge of the allspark to find and activate the star haverster to blow up our sun.) on earth in both movies. They have the right to do whatever they need to keep them from successing. Decepticons have no claim to our world and have nothing but ill intent.

If the Decepticons were willing to be flexible then the Fallen never would have betrayed his brother in the first place. They are uncompromising , otherwise they'd just packed up and moved to another location when they discover humans. Shooting them in the face is only thing they that seems to register to them.

- the Decepticons weren't harming anybody until the autobots got close. They were just searching for their leader. Sideways didn't even harm anybody and tried to flee under the radar. Also, they were searching for Demolishor actively even before all of their forces, including the big ACE, OP arrived at the scene. Summary: Any human casualties can be written on the autobots account after disturbing them

They were searching for means to KILL EVERYONE on the planet. Somehow I fail see how that's our fault for not wanting them on Earth. What were they supposed to do..ignore them and just let them find the harvester? Sorry if this is best "logic" to my faulty responses.

- Prime executing Demolishor: There were methods shown in the first movie how to disable a Bayformer: Optimus knew it, and could have used information if he would have interrogated Demo. But, since movie OP was going for the hero badge, he didn't even gave Demolishor a chance to surrender.

Did you see how large demolisher was? There's no way they could have moved him in one piece. He was badly injured and likely wouldn't have survived transport. They couldn't leave him there and question him since they were outside the quartined zone and the public could find him. Given the situation there wasn't much option to do much else.

- you're trying to use the american armys moral on an alien lifeform: Now, these lifeforms can be repared, and are in dire need of an unique energy (in both G1 and Bayverse): it doesn't take much of a tactician that it is a much bigger cut to cripple an enemy and then make the enemy take the costs of the repairs than kill the enemys simple soldiers just so they could single out the weaklings.

What you are saying is true...when dealing with humans or even the autobots. As they tell America soldiers, shoot to maim, not to kill so they need take 3 more guys to carry that one away. They'd likely expend alot of resources to save one of their own if Decepticons crippled them. (which they restored bumble bee to full fighting condition after all the damage he took in the first film.)

With Decepticons...what you said doesn't apply at all. Outside of Megatron(because the Fallen knew he was one Decepticon able to defeat Prime.), Decepticons never waste resources saving someone who's gimped. They were willing kill a fully functional one to rebuild Megatron. They have littlevalue of life, so leaving a gimp for them to repair isn't going slow their cause. They'd killed demolisher themselves.

The Doctor bio pretty much made out to most decepticons would rather suffer in silence than have him operate on them if they could help it.Decepticons don't do health care. You're either healthy or you're dead with them.

You want to go down to my level...please you need to come up heh.

I read some of the posts. Only true fault would be that the Autobots and Nest really didn't offer what would be the deal on the table if the Decepticons turned themselves in. But, after the introduction of Wheelie and Jetfire, the Autobots may realize there are more peaceful alternatives, which could be explored in the third movie.

But before Wheelie and Jetfire came into the picture, the Autobots in this verse lived in a world where it is kill or be killed. Considering the human pricks that were around Optimus, he was quite forgiving. If I were him, I might of grabbed that politician and give him a whole new meaning to the word hand shake.

Capt.Failure wrote:
I stick to my guns when I say RotF is a good movie because I enjoyed it. I can't tell people who didn't like it they're wrong because, well, that's their opinion. However, I can look at the fanbase (the people Hasbro listens to when giving Bay orders) and say, "If you didn't like it, you're partially to blame." You can fire back with "we expect better," but you'll never get better if you refuse to be happy.

Agreed. One thing thats's for sure is you have to give any director and his team alot of credit for even atempting to make live action movies based on anything with such a large fan base. Many people in the fan base (regaurdless of what it is), have very high expectations, and will pick such a movie to death.

shamone wrote: technically autobots did strike first, sideways was attacked

Umm... I don't believe so. If i remember correctly, he (Sideways) started up and ran off. Granted, the autobots did fire on him first, I'll give you that, but Demolisher also transformered and attacked before the that chase began. He could have transformed, and stood his ground without attacking the Nest team. Remember...
Lenox said that this could not get into the public eye. So if there was a possibility to avoid a battle, I don't see why they wouldn't negotiate. But that leads to another question....
Regardless of the situation, Demolisher is a decepticon. And that being, he still stands for the decepticon cause. If the autobots do not kill him, then he would need to be captured and imprisoned

shamone wrote:secondly there was no terms of surrender offered, remember the twins cwent round, broadcasting the message "come and get your ass whipped" not come out and surrender, so demolisher is justified in defending himself when cornered considering the threat from the twins and sideways fate

Your correct. The twins did broadcast an ass whoopin. Fair enough. But Demolisher was cornered. One can only defend him/herself if attacked first, which he was not.

shamone wrote: as for complaining about prime, and try and follow this please, there are some who did not complain about prime in the first movie (i felt he was too cold and detatched re jazz's death if anything) and did complain about him in second movie.

I'm sure there were some that didn't complain about Prime in the first movie. But there were many that did. And many of those same people complained about him in both movies. But regardless, people are going to react more to things they don't like. Which has alot to do with how Prime was in ROTF.

shamone wrote:Its not a simple case of either/or, its not a go figure moment, people can have conflicting views and what makes one happy may not please another

True. But thats the problem. Were never going to make everyone happy. The intire movieverse is built on comprimises. Thats why we have a "love" story in the plot. Many think its irrelevent, but the general public eat up that kind of stuff.

Many G1 fans might not like the new designs and want something more simple. But when making a movie of this magnatude, its pretty much expected for them to bring the best CGI possible. A bunch of plated robots running around do not impress, but small itriget parts constantly moving within the body of the TF's do.

I could go on and on, but hopfully you get were i'm going.

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:
I stick to my guns when I say RotF is a good movie because I enjoyed it. I can't tell people who didn't like it they're wrong because, well, that's their opinion. However, I can look at the fanbase (the people Hasbro listens to when giving Bay orders) and say, "If you didn't like it, you're partially to blame." You can fire back with "we expect better," but you'll never get better if you refuse to be happy.

Agreed. One thing thats's for sure is you have to give any director and his team alot of credit for even atempting to make live action movies based on anything with such a large fan base. Many people in the fan base (regaurdless of what it is), have very high expectations, and will pick such a movie to death.

shamone wrote: technically autobots did strike first, sideways was attacked

Umm... I don't believe so. If i remember correctly, he (Sideways) started up and ran off. Granted, the autobots did fire on him first, I'll give you that, but Demolisher also transformered and attacked before the that chase began. He could have transformed, and stood his ground without attacking the Nest team. Remember...
Lenox said that this could not get into the public eye. So if there was a possibility to avoid a battle, I don't see why they wouldn't negotiate. But that leads to another question....
Regardless of the situation, Demolisher is a decepticon. And that being, he still stands for the decepticon cause. If the autobots do not kill him, then he would need to be captured and imprisoned

shamone wrote:secondly there was no terms of surrender offered, remember the twins cwent round, broadcasting the message "come and get your ass whipped" not come out and surrender, so demolisher is justified in defending himself when cornered considering the threat from the twins and sideways fate

Your correct. The twins did broadcast an ass whoopin. Fair enough. But Demolisher was cornered. One can only defend him/herself if attacked first, which he was not.

shamone wrote: as for complaining about prime, and try and follow this please, there are some who did not complain about prime in the first movie (i felt he was too cold and detatched re jazz's death if anything) and did complain about him in second movie.

I'm sure there were some that didn't complain about Prime in the first movie. But there were many that did. And many of those same people complained about him in both movies. But regardless, people are going to react more to things they don't like. Which has alot to do with how Prime was in ROTF.

shamone wrote:Its not a simple case of either/or, its not a go figure moment, people can have conflicting views and what makes one happy may not please another

True. But thats the problem. Were never going to make everyone happy. The intire movieverse is built on comprimises. Thats why we have a "love" story in the plot. Many think its irrelevent, but the general public eat up that kind of stuff.

Many G1 fans might not like the new designs and want something more simple. But when making a movie of this magnatude, its pretty much expected for them to bring the best CGI possible. A bunch of plated robots running around do not impress, but small itriget parts constantly moving within the body of the TF's do.

I could go on and on, but hopfully you get were i'm going.

i think demolisher could justifiably expect to defend himself considering sideways fate and as i mentioned before this has happened before to other cons

taking prisoners is more difficult i agree, but thats what seperates the good from the bad, mercy.

I dont think demolisher can be held responsible for the deaths in his escape. I can understand prime taking him down though. Its the finalexecution which sticks in my throat to be fair.

I dont mind the design so much. I think the filming and editing is a bit too hectic and you cant appreciate the machines, battle scenes need to be rewatcehed a number of times as you dont kno where to focus due to the rapid edits.

Capt.Failure wrote:Yes, this is what I said...

Capt.Failure wrote:I agree, why post on these forums if you're just going to stirr up trouble about how much you hate the movies? You're either trying too hard to be a troll, or you're secretly in denial that you like them.

Because frankly alot of people have done this, though they aren't around anymore since the more sensible people on the forums (those who discuss things when they disagree instead of fling mud) outweigh them. Though I do admit I was sort of generalizing.

shamone wrote:Im afraid its not a fact that people who dislike the movies would never be happy, unless the definition of fact has changed now.

This is my second attempt to clarify this for you. Here's what I said.

Capt.Failure wrote:The fact that a large portion of those who dislike the films fall into the "would never be happy" camp, however, is simple fact. Not because I wish to label them because they disagree with me, but because that's how fanbases work. For example, I dare you to go onto a Harry Potter forum and say you liked the Half-Blood Prince movie. I'll wait here behind a lead blast shield.

You refuse to interpret what I say properly, twisting it around to fit your viewpoint. I'm saying that fandoms, ANY fandom, has this problem. Not aknowledging it is simply foolish. Generally speaking any hardcore fan of a series will never be pleased by any iteration of the series outside the one they grew accustomed to as it does not fit their vision of the show they believe it is their right to dictate the direction of as loyal fans. But the thing is that it's not their right, it's the producers/directors/owners of the series who make those calls. So these fans will never get what they want, and be forever miserable.

And that brings me back to my point: sure, there's numerous reasons not to like the movieverse. There's just as many reasons to love the movieverse. But if history has proven anything, most hardcore Transformers fans dislike the movieverse because it doesn't conform to their ideal vision of the franchise. Just like they disliked Beast Wars, Armada, Animated, Prime, etc. There's a reason the trope RuinedFOREVER was coined by the Transformers fandom.

you speak in absolutes, its a fact, its a fact.

Show me the empirical evidence please if you want to insist something is verifable fact or merely an opinion or observation

as for flinging mud, you should look at yourself, you use the word troll when ever i disagree with you. I have tried to debate using my observations and my opinions without denigrating you.

shamone wrote:


taking prisoners is more difficult i agree, but thats what seperates the good from the bad, mercy.

You think taking prisoners is what separates the good from the bad?

shamone wrote: i think demolisher could justifiably expect to defend himself considering sideways fate and as i mentioned before this has happened before to other cons

Again, he full on attacked nest before the autobots chased Sideways.

I dont think demolisher can be held responsible for the deaths in his escape. I can understand prime taking him down though. Its the finalexecution which sticks in my throat to be fair.

Completely disagree. Because ones's chasing you is no excuse to harm others while making an escape. How do you justify throwing cars as your escaping?

shamone wrote:dont mind the design so much. I think the filming and editing is a bit too hectic and you cant appreciate the machines, battle scenes need to be rewatcehed a number of times as you dont kno where to focus due to the rapid edits.

I can understand this in the first movie, but in ROTF, they specificly slowed down many of the fight scenes so you could see the details.

Iamwarhorse wrote:

shamone wrote:


taking prisoners is more difficult i agree, but thats what seperates the good from the bad, mercy.

You think taking prisoners is what separates the good from the bad?

I assume you dont

which would suggest you believe the following are moral

- extra judiciary executions
- shooting a wounded and incapicated foe in the face
- ignoring the geneva convention
- entering a sovereign state, surrounding and breaking into someones home and shooting them in the face

when you become like your enemy what are you fighting for anymore

5150 Cruiser wrote:

shamone wrote: i think demolisher could justifiably expect to defend himself considering sideways fate and as i mentioned before this has happened before to other cons

Again, he full on attacked nest before the autobots chased Sideways.

I dont think demolisher can be held responsible for the deaths in his escape. I can understand prime taking him down though. Its the finalexecution which sticks in my throat to be fair.

Completely disagree. Because ones's chasing you is no excuse to harm others while making an escape. How do you justify throwing cars as your escaping?

shamone wrote:dont mind the design so much. I think the filming and editing is a bit too hectic and you cant appreciate the machines, battle scenes need to be rewatcehed a number of times as you dont kno where to focus due to the rapid edits.

I can understand this in the first movie, but in ROTF, they specificly slowed down many of the fight scenes so you could see the details.

when you are running for our life, under feqar of execution, then you may not care who gets in your way

Agreed scenes were slowed down at parts, but the deser tscene when there was multiple bots i could not follow it. Didnt see the arcees in it at all, and the cons were too generic

shamone wrote:

Iamwarhorse wrote:

shamone wrote:


taking prisoners is more difficult i agree, but thats what seperates the good from the bad, mercy.

You think taking prisoners is what separates the good from the bad?

I assume you dont

which would suggest you believe the following are moral

- extra judiciary executions
- shooting a wounded and incapicated foe in the face
- ignoring the geneva convention
- entering a sovereign state, surrounding and breaking into someones home and shooting them in the face

when you become like your enemy what are you fighting for anymore

You're still ignoring the fact that the Decepticons are on Earth in the first place. It's like someone in Al Qaeda living in the US. They're only here to cause destruction. The only viable option is to remove the treat before any innocent people are harmed.

The Autobots didn't break into Demolishor's home, he invaded their planet with the intention of killing every one on it. Once they found him he attacked and made a run for it killing dozens of people in the process. Killing him was the right thing to do, imprisoning him would risk even more lives.

shamone wrote: when you are running for our life, under feqar of execution, then you may not care who gets in your way

But how does that excuse him from picking up cars and throwing them? And thats just the point... He didn't care. If your inocent, your not going to go out of your way to harm others that are innocent as well. If bad guys are chasing me and i know i'm a good hearted person, then i'm not going to run people over, step on peolpe, knock them over a flight of stairs just to get away. cause

1- Thats not what an innocent person does..
2- thats not what a good natured person does.

That is what seperates the good from the bad. even in times of danger, you still put others in front of yourself.

5150 Cruiser wrote:

shamone wrote: when you are running for our life, under feqar of execution, then you may not care who gets in your way

But how does that excuse him from picking up cars and throwing them? And thats just the point... He didn't care. If your inocent, your not going to go out of your way to harm others that are innocent as well. If bad guys are chasing me and i know i'm a good hearted person, then i'm not going to run people over, step on peolpe, knock them over a flight of stairs just to get away. cause

1- Thats not what an innocent person does..
2- thats not what a good natured person does.

That is what seperates the good from the bad. even in times of danger, you still put others in front of yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf1bx37lh_M