The Energon Pub

by **Galvatron628** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:35 am

Here's just something to think about.

Everytime Optimus Primal gets brought up it is argued quickly that he is not Optimus Prime. That baffles me, because he is IMO. Primal is Prime in beast wars, and Megatron is Megatron in beast wars. Just because they found a way to connect the G1 continuity to it, doesn't make them any less Prime (or megatron, lol).

Every single TF series has Optimus as the leader of the good guys, and Megatron as the leader of the bad guys. I've watched all 50 some episodes of beast wars and all 20 some episodes of the horrible horrible shouldofjuststayedafanfic beast machines and the whole time, Optimus Primal was Optimus Prime in my eyes.

The way I feel about it is if people want to be that technical than RID prime, and anime nightmare, err I mean Unicron trilogy Prime was not Optimus Prime either.

by **Loki120** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:56 am

Cormaster628 wrote:Here's just something to think about.

Everytime Optimus Primal gets brought up it is argued quickly that he is not Optimus Prime. That baffles me, because he is IMO. Primal is Prime in beast wars, and Megatron is Megatron in beast wars. Just because they found a way to connect the G1 continuity to it, doesn't make them any less Prime (or megatron, lol).

Every single TF series has Optimus as the leader of the good guys, and Megatron as the leader of the bad guys. I've watched all 50 some episodes of beast wars and all 20 some episodes of the horrible horrible shouldofjuststayedafanfic beast machines and the whole time, Optimus Primal was Optimus Prime in my eyes.

The way I feel about it is if people want to be that technical than RID prime, and anime nightmare, err I mean Unicron trilogy Prime was not Optimus Prime either.

Well, you're really counterpointing the arguement with flawed logic. While, yes, Optimus Prime from RID and Armada (onwards) could be considering not the "real" Optimus Prime, they're alternate reality versions of the same character.

In concerns of Primal, that's not even the case. Since Beast Wars is considered the cartoon cannon continuation (say that three times fast) of the original cartoon, Primal is clearly pointed out to be a total seperate character from Optimus Prime. And in many cases, the personalities of the characters are totally different as well.

So while the arguement may be irritating to you, it doesnt make it any less true. Primal and Prime and two totally seperate characters, and not even in an alternate reality sort of way.

by **Galvatron628** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:06 am

But really he is not a separate character. They didn't have to make Beast Wars a continuation of G1, they chose too, just to draw in G1 fans. There are a lot of differences between G1 and Beast wars, ie sparks. G1 characters do not have sparks, the concept was not even born until Beast Wars. Starscream appeared as a ghost in one of the later episodes of G1, but he never appeared as a glowing sphere with sparks around it. So in that sense Beast Wars is a seperate continuity. If it is the G1 Continuity, its a different G1 continuity than the one we know of.

Anyway my point is every single series has an OP and Megatron, and Beast Wars is no different. ITs just another take on the same ol' story. Hell they even have the same voice actors as the anime nightmare trilogy!

News Credits: 1 · by **Saber Prime** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:14 am

Um because they're not. It was said in the show that Optimus Primal and Megatron are the DECENDENTS of the originals. They were NAMED after the originals but they are not the same characters.

by **Airlift** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:17 am

Optimus Primal took the name Optimus as a tribute to Optimus Prime, as did Beast Wars Megatron. If the two Optimus' were the same character, then imo nothing would have happened when Primal held Prime's spark in Optimal Situation. During the episodes before Optimal Situation, The Agenda 3 parter, Ravage says to Beast Wars Megatron that he served under the original Megatron, i.e G1 Megatron.

by **The Chopnel** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:07 pm

and there's one big difference too, other than what's been already said.

Optimus Primal is not the supreme commander of the maximals, he's more like a police officer who commands a ship. So he's not a "Prime", he just has a similar name. (at least that's how I see it.)

Same with Megatron, he is not the leader of all predacons, just his band of criminals.

by **Roddy P** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:44 pm

From my understanding he is not Optimus Prime.

by **Ragnorok64** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:07 pm

Cormaster628 wrote:But really he is not a separate character. They didn't have to make Beast Wars a continuation of G1, they chose too, just to draw in G1 fans. There are a lot of differences between G1 and Beast wars, ie sparks. G1 characters do not have sparks, the concept was not even born until Beast Wars. Starscream appeared as a ghost in one of the later episodes of G1, but he never appeared as a glowing sphere with sparks around it. So in that sense Beast Wars is a seperate continuity. If it is the G1 Continuity, its a different G1 continuity than the one we know of.

Anyway my point is every single series has an OP and Megatron, and Beast Wars is no different. ITs just another take on the same ol' story. Hell they even have the same voice actors as the anime nightmare trilogy!

I can't figure if you're attempting to make a point, or don't have a firm grasp of how continuity and the all mighty power of the retcon works.

Regardless of how you my personally feel, Optimus Prime, and Optimus Primal are different characters. They have different history's, personalities, and roles. Not only is this spelled out beyond the shadow of a doubt in the Shows but in transformers media since then they are treated as separate characters.

Saying they aren't separate characters is like saying Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, and Tim Drake (three individuals who filled the role of Robin to Batman) are the same character.

News Credits: 730 · by **Raymond T.** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:48 pm

Cormaster628 wrote:Here's just something to think about.

Everytime Optimus Primal gets brought up it is argued quickly that he is not Optimus Prime. That baffles me, because he is IMO. Primal is Prime in beast wars, and Megatron is Megatron in beast wars. Just because they found a way to connect the G1 continuity to it, doesn't make them any less Prime (or megatron, lol).

Every single TF series has Optimus as the leader of the good guys, and Megatron as the leader of the bad guys. I've watched all 50 some episodes of beast wars and all 20 some episodes of the horrible horrible shouldofjuststayedafanfic beast machines and the whole time, Optimus Primal was Optimus Prime in my eyes.

The way I feel about it is if people want to be that technical than RID prime, and anime nightmare, err I mean Unicron trilogy Prime was not Optimus Prime either.

First off, NOT every Transformers series has an Optimus Prime and a Megatron. The Japanese G1 spin-offs had their very own leaders.

The big differences between the G1 leaders and the BeastWars leaders is that the G1 leaders were vetern warriors in command of all the Autobots/Decepticons. Optimus Prime was a Transport captain that become the leader of the gang Maximals because of the situation BW Megatron put them in. Megatron himself is described as a Rogue and an outcast, not the leader of all Predacons. As Ravage said, He has Megatron's name, but not his army...

News Credits: 767 · by **Dead Metal** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:54 pm

And there were Sparks in G1!
I don't know which thred this has been posted in but there is a scan of a old Marvel comic showing Sparks!

Primal and Prime ar two different carecters just like BW Megatron, heck I've never seen the whole series but the few eps I've seen just make it very clear!

News Credits: 730 · by **Raymond T.** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:22 pm

Dead Metal wrote:And there were Sparks in G1!
I don't know which thred this has been posted in but there is a scan of a old Marvel comic showing Sparks!

Primal and Prime ar two different carecters just like BW Megatron, heck I've never seen the whole series but the few eps I've seen just make it very clear!

There are NO sparks in G1, not in the cartoon not in the comics, because Larry DiTillio didn't invent that until 1995. There was mention of sparks of life, but as a concept to explain life, not as the essense of their being.

News Credits: 767 · by **Dead Metal** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:28 pm

Raymond T. wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:And there were Sparks in G1!
I don't know which thred this has been posted in but there is a scan of a old Marvel comic showing Sparks!

Primal and Prime ar two different carecters just like BW Megatron, heck I've never seen the whole series but the few eps I've seen just make it very clear!
There are NO sparks in G1, not in the cartoon not in the comics, because Larry DiTillio didn't invent that until 1995. There was mention of sparks of life, but as a concept to explain life, not as the essense of their being.

OH OK yes that's what they coled them in that scann, sorry.
But just cos they weren't mentioned in G1 is dosn't mean that they weren't there I mean a lot of stuff about our body get found out all the time.

by **GremlinGrimlock** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:31 pm

Still optimus,somehow evolution turned him into an ape. Nothing
wrong with the boss monkey form...strong,reliable. Like the
japanese version...don't know how this fits..but turned em
into a wooly mammoth. Cold,survivable...boss always there
when needed.

Like Prowl76 on Facebook · by **Prowl76** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:40 pm

Primal was not a Prime.

It is really as simple as that.

by **CloudBreaker22** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:41 pm

Wasn't Big Convoy the Prime at the time?

by **Ragnorok64** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:44 pm

I've searched through the transformers wiki and it seem that G1 referenced "Lasercores" that seem to have a similar function to Sparks or be the casing for such.

Any of you transformers veterans know anything about that?

by **Tangent** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:51 pm

Ragnorok64 wrote:I've searched through the transformers wiki and it seem that G1 referenced "Lasercores" that seem to have a similar function to Sparks or be the casing for such.

Any of you transformers veterans know anything about that?

I aint a vet, but T think they did call them that, I kinda remember Megatron mentioning it, in at least one episode, i think...

by **Airlift** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:03 pm

In the original cartoon they were called laser cores, since Beast Wars/Machines they've been retconned and are now called sparks. IIRC alot of the fans came to like the spark name, and used that name in fan fics, so since DW/IDW took over the duties of producing TF comics, they've been called sparks. Same with CR chambers, never existed in the original cartoon, but they have been seen in the new comics.

News Credits: 33 · by **Glyph** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:07 pm

Geez, let's not get into the G1 Sparks thing, it's not even on topic. G1 never mentioned or depicted sparks, period. They did not exist in G1, period. And because G1 did talk about TFs as though they had some kind of 'life' that could be extinguished, separately from merely damaging their bodies, it's easy to retcon them into the G1 continuity, or to ignore them if you want to. Period.

Anyway, back on topic. It should be really clear from the posts in this thread that there is no argument - Optimus Primal is neither the same character as Optimus Prime, nor is he a Prime at all.

I think I see the point you're making in your initial post - they do fulfil the same role of 'head good guy' in their respective shows - but that only works when you're treating each show as a completely separate entity, and more to the point treating characters as no more than their position in the toyline. So yes, Optimus Primal fulfils (largely) the same role in Beast Wars and Beast Machines as Optimus Prime does in G1 and all its alternate reality spinoffs, as the leader of the show's core Autobot (Maximal) cast; but that doesn't make them the same character in any way.

News Credits: 730 · by **Raymond T.** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:31 pm

Tangent wrote:
Ragnorok64 wrote:I've searched through the transformers wiki and it seem that G1 referenced "Lasercores" that seem to have a similar function to Sparks or be the casing for such.

Any of you transformers veterans know anything about that?
I aint a vet, but T think they did call them that, I kinda remember Megatron mentioning it, in at least one episode, i think...

Throughout the series of the 80's there were three elements that determined a Transformer's Life or spirit. Lasercore, Central Processor Unit (CPU) and Databanks. In the episode of Microbots, we even get to see Megatron's actual Lasercore, as it is explained by Perceptor that it was the brain giving orders to the Heart of Cybertron, which was implanted in his chest at that time.

That is his BRAIN or Lasercore located underneath Megatron's Helmet giving the orders and thinking of "evil new schemes". Not a glowing orb located somewhere in his chest.

The reason why al these years later we are debating the fact of Sparks versus no sparks is because Larry DiTillio never bothered to do his research into the established mythology. He has admitted that he wanted to make the Transformers less robot-like, because "He doesn't like 60 foot tall robots" as he put it.

News Credits: 33 · by **Glyph** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:32 pm

Not to argue with you, Raymond, but wasn't the term 'laser core' only used once in the entire cartoon? For that matter, I don't remember ever seeing 'CPU' used in either the cartoon or comics to describe a fundamental component of every Transformer, and I'm pretty sure 'databanks' was only used as a cartoon technobabble synonym for 'memory'. I wouldn't go so far as to say that there was any established mythology as regards what made a Transformer 'alive', save two specific things: the Matrix in the comics and Vector Sigma in the cartoon.

While it was shown that a TF could be 'killed' permanently by the destruction of certain components - the oft-cited laser core mentioned by Megatron in the cartoon, Shockwave's brain module crushed by Death's Head in the comics, for example - the actual business of bringing a TF to life always required an infusion of mystic mumbo-jumbo; without it, the assembled body - including its laser core and brain module - could never be more than a drone. The analogy to the human condition is implicit, but very clear.

The only major counter-example to this is the cartoon Dinobots, created by Wheeljack on Earth without reference to Vector Sigma, and of course there are two problems there: firstly, they're hardly stellar examples of Transformer life, and secondly the example only works if you say "well, it's just that the cartoon writers hadn't invented Vector Sigma yet" or otherwise explain away the blatant contradiction - a slippery slope given that your main argument against sparks is that Larry "hadn't invented them yet".

At the end of the day, it's not really worth arguing over. No, there were no sparks in G1, so purists can safely ignore them if they so desire. However, Beast Wars unequivocally retconned sparks into the G1 universe, and it managed to do so whilst breaking less of the 'established continuity' than the introduction of Vector Sigma did in the cartoon.

Edit: added "For that matter... 'memory'".

by **Loki120** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:30 pm

Glyph wrote:Not to argue with you, Raymond, but wasn't the term 'laser core' only used once in the entire cartoon?

Yes, it was basically a throw-away line in one episode.

Anyway my point is every single series has an OP and Megatron, and Beast Wars is no different. ITs just another take on the same ol' story. Hell they even have the same voice actors as the anime nightmare trilogy!

Take it for what you will. Cannon-wise, Primal and Prime are to seperate characters. Cannon-wise, Beast Wars and Beast Machines are a continuation of the original series. But feel free to think of them however you want. I know plenty of people who think that the Star Wars Novels are cannon because they're "officially licensed" - this is no different.

by **Galvatron628** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:04 pm

He may just be a commander but on prehistoric earth he is Prime. He is the incarnation of Optimus Prime for the Beast Wars series. He really shows it off as a true leader in Beast machines.

Storyline has them as seperate charachters but he is still "just prime"(quoting him) in my opinion.

technically they are seperate charachters but in many ways they are still one and the same. hell other than Primal's mouth he even has the same head as optimus prime!

by **Galaxion** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:43 pm

Cormaster628 wrote:He may just be a commander but on prehistoric earth he is Prime. He is the incarnation of Optimus Prime for the Beast Wars series. He really shows it off as a true leader in Beast machines.

Storyline has them as seperate charachters but he is still "just prime"(quoting him) in my opinion.

technically they are seperate charachters but in many ways they are still one and the same. hell other than Primal's mouth he even has the same head as optimus prime!

I would have to disagree Optimus Primal is a commander pure and simple, Sure he has some similar features to Optimus Prime and maybe one of the most powerfull Maximals but he was dispatched by the Maximal council to retrieve the Renegade Predacon calling himself Megatron.

Optimus Primal took Optimus Prime name and modified it to Primal as a tribute to Prime and is not even the leaders of the Maximals he was never a Matrix canadite therefore he is not Prime his role would be more similar to Ultra Magnus than Optimus Prime.

BW Megatron took G1 Megatron's name in order to instill fear into the Maximals and although one of the more powerfull Predacons he was not happy with the Tripericus Council and took it upon himself using Megatrons name to attempt to complete Megatrons dream of Universal conquest. Megatron was but a Lieutenant in the Predacons forces not the leader of the Predacons.

by **Ragnorok64** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:23 am

Loki120 wrote:...Take it for what you will. Cannon-wise, Primal and Prime are to seperate characters. Cannon-wise, Beast Wars and Beast Machines are a continuation of the original series. But feel free to think of them however you want. I know plenty of people who think that the Star Wars Novels are cannon because they're "officially licensed" - this is no different.

Just a note, Star Wars has an official canon system http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon so knowing what's canon and what's not is easy, if you know how it works.

To my knowledge Transformers has no such system so it's a little bit more confusing.