The Energon Pub

Saber Prime wrote:1. In their first appearance Megatron says "It was worth all that time building them.

2. The Omega Supreme "they were reprogramed" origin.

3. They built Megatron.

Bingo. You can't really reconcile 2 and 3, as "Five Faces of Darkness" definately makes them out to be 'evil' when they built Megatron.

And I do believe we're all forgetting the earliest Matrix-bearer shown in the G1 cartoon. U-Haul Robot, who didn't change forms either, isn't called anything(imus) Prime, and is officially named U-Haul Robot in the script.

Jeep! wrote:And I do believe we're all forgetting the earliest Matrix-bearer shown in the G1 cartoon. U-Haul Robot, who didn't change forms either, isn't called anything(imus) Prime, and is officially named U-Haul Robot in the script.

That's is much his name as when you see people listed as "Guard 1" "Jailer" or "Mysterious Voice", he's just a nameless extra.

Come on guys, this is a thread of fun, not fact.

Ramjetimus Prime

Bonecrushermus Prime

Bumblebemus Prime

Unicronimus Prime (actually sounds quite menacing )

Thrustimus Prime

Galvatronimus Prime

Nemesisimus Prime

Saber Prime wrote:Had to look at that for a while before I noticed but yes he does seem to have a few extra fetures in his Optimus form that Optronix doesn't have. (Like the side intenas on his helmet and a few other minor changes to the chest details.) Thanks for the pics.

Your Welcome.

Saber Prime wrote:You missunderstood what I said here. I only ment that Hot Rod was the only known Transformer to be physically upgraded by the Matrix not that no one else was effected at all. Just whatever effecets it had on Optimus and the other Autobots wasn't any physical change. (At least in the cartoon)

My point has been that we really dont know if Optimus had any physical change when he got the Matrix.Since we were never shown what happened we really just dont know.

Saber Prime wrote:What happened in Scourge's case is actully verry different. It's the "Autobot" Matrix of leadership and Scourge was in a sence poisoned by it and mutated into an allmost blob like creature. We know that because he's a Decepticon he was never ment to have the Matrix and what happen to him may verry well of happened to any Decepticon that took it.

I woulded call it an "Almost blob like creature" but thats your opinion.

There's not really much difference between a "mutation" and a "upgrade" when both are being enacted by the same outside source.

The introduction of an outside power source [the Matrix] into their bodies effected a change in their bodies and power levels.

You can call both case's mutations or upgrades in the long run both were changed by the power of the Matrix in a very simular way.Both were changed in body and power levels.

And as I said before this points to the very real possibility that theres a small number of TF's that could be changed by the Matrix since all others that had the Matrix received no change to their bodies or power levels at all.

Saber Prime wrote:Before you mention Galvatron though, he never actully held the Matrix inside him like Scourge or the Autobots did.

Thats a matter of opinion.It depends in you consider Galvatrons arm cannon a part of him.

Galvatron did place it inside his arm cannon and doing so did infact provoked a response from the Matrix itself.If you remember the Matrix spoke useing the voices of the old leaders.

The Matrix never in the toon showed any ability to communicate with its bearer or anyone else unless it was inside of some living thing.

The only times it communicated with anyone was in "5 faces of Darkness" while inside Rodimus, "The return of Optimus Prime" while inside Optimus, "The Rebirth" while inside Vector Sigma which is a living computer that also has the living spark of Alpha Trion with in it and in the "Burden hardest to bear" when Galvatron placed it in his cannon.

Other then those times anytime the Matrix was outside a living TF body it remained silent.To me that suggest that placing the Matrix in his cannon was akin to placing it inside his chest other wise the Matrix would have not responded to that action like it didnt respond to being worn around his neck or being held by Wildrider or being inside his car mode.

If Galvatron's cannon is not a part of him the Matrix should have acted like it did when Galvatron had it in the 86 movie....or when Wildrider had it.

Saber Prime wrote:It may verry well be that Optimus got the Matrix the same day he was rebuilt but the lines spoken do say he was "rebuilt by Alpha Trion" so regardless of weather or not he had the Matrix at that time we do know it wasn't the Matrix that gave him that form.

Actually the line's spoken were "Reconstructed" not rebuilt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BokzrY7Lpr8
But I've said this to you and here many times......you cant take every line spoken in the G1 toon too literally.If you do then you have to believe that Megatron was "born" like the rest of us were born.They did say in dialog that Megatron was born in "5 faces of darkness".

And the definition or the word "Born" is "brought forth by birth the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring".

And no where in the G1 serries were we ever givven the idea that TF's bear young.So the word "Born" in Megatrons case must have been a "Metaphor.

So the line "Reconstructed" could very well be the same kind of "Metaphor" that saying Megatron was born was.If your going to except that kind of thinking for one line in the serries you have to except it as a possibility for all lines that leave a question about the flow of events.

And thats a case nether of us can prove.And that being said....nether of us can prove that it was or wasnt the Matrix that effected the repairs or the upgrade to Optimus Prime from Orion Pax.

Saber Prime wrote:If it was only the Matrix that reformated him then the whole thing about Alpha Trion rebuilding him doesn't make any sence. Aireal got rebuilt too, and there's only one Matrix that we know of, so she couldn't of been upgraded by it.

Elita ! also had a special power [to stop time] and that special power could have also been the result of her receiving some special "Tool" or "Device" much like Optimus did.

The fact is we dont know.Just like we dont know if Alpha did more or less in the reconstructing prossus.Since the scenes were never animated we'll never know.

Me, Grimlock! wrote:I remember someone saying on a site somewhere (maybe even this one) that they had 3 separate ones. That's where I got my number. I counted two, too. But, in the spirit of my original point, the cartoon continuity is messy; I was pointing out that the writers weren't too clean in creating character histories, whether fans could later reconcile them or not. Two origins or three, the writers didn't use any rhyme or reason in writing these histories even if fans can somehow reconcile it all 20 years later. Who's to say they were more careful when writing about the Matrix?

Agreed.

Me, Grimlock! wrote:I was saying "duh" precisely because it was obvious and you pointed it out already (one of those "we knew that already; get on with it" duhs).

Ok now I understand.I thought you ment it more like a "Homer Simpson duh".

Me, Grimlock! wrote:Aaarrrggghhhh... I did forget. There goes my theory. I remember only once (when Galvatron steals it from Magnus until when he fights Hot Rod in the belly of Unicron), but I'll take your word for it. You obviously have a better memory than I do.

I still stand by my original point, which doesn't apply to the comics but might help nullify any attempt to explain the cartoon. G1 cartoon history is messy, so I don't think any of it is reliable in telling us what happens when someone gets the Matrix. I really don't think there IS any single explanation. As fans, we might be able to come up with reconciliations, but it would be haphazard. The writers weren't too careful when they wrote their episodes.

Again, can't speak for the comics.

Thats kind of been my point....with the fact that the cartoon continuity is so messed up and so many thing were just not shown we really cant say that Optimus was not changed by the Matrix.

Saber Prime wrote:1. In their first appearance Megatron says "It was worth all that time building them.

That could have been a "Metaphor" and could have ment that they built them new bodies on earth.

Saber Prime wrote:2. The Omega Supreme "they were reprogramed" origin.

Which doesnt change anything if their new bodies were built on earth.

Saber Prime wrote:3. They built Megatron.

No that was never said.....but it was implyed by the animation.

And ether way it doesnt change ether origin story.Just because Megatron reprogramed the Constructions to evil bots does not meen that they could not have partisapated in Megatrons creation years earlyer.

And who's to say that was the same team of Constructions [from season 1] that build Megatron.There's good reason to question that little fact.

We see 7 or 8 constructions surrounding the table when the narrator say's the words "Megatron was born".



Since we know that TF's arent born we know the words were ment as a Metaphor" and since we know the Constructions were a team of 6 and not 7 or 8 we know we might not be seeing the real Construction team.

And since we know the word "Born" to be a "Metaphor" for being created then it may be that Megatron was created by "A" teem of Constructions but not the team that we met in season 1.

And while we're on the topic....those constructions could have been doing to Megatron the very same thing that was done to Opion Pax.

They may have been rebuilding some un-named bot into Megatron.

We just dont know.

Jeep! wrote:Bingo. You can't really reconcile 2 and 3, as "Five Faces of Darkness" definately makes them out to be 'evil' when they built Megatron.

I just did.

And building something that turns out to be evil is no indication that the creator['s] is evil....no more then the parents of an evil person is an indication that the parents are evil.

You can see evidence of both in other forms of Si/Fi fiction and real life history.

Jeep! wrote:And I do believe we're all forgetting the earliest Matrix-bearer shown in the G1 cartoon. U-Haul Robot, who didn't change forms either, isn't called anything(imus) Prime, and is officially named U-Haul Robot in the script.

Have you seen the script???

I did when I was working as an intern at Marvel and he's referred to as "past autobot leader" and nothing more.

Dont put so much fate into what you read on Wike and its sister sites.

Unless theres more then one version of that script which is possible.

And being named "U-Haul bot" in a script wouldnt have been official because they would have had to secured the rights from U-Haul to make it official and it would also mean Alpha Trions offical name should be "old bot" since it was the working name he was givven in an early draft for the script of "The search for Alpha Trion" or that " Nightbird" should be called "Female Niga Robot" since it was also a name for the character in an early script of the episode "Enter the Nightbird".

"U-Haul bot" would have only been a working knick name givven to differentiate one past leader from the other in the animation or voicing part of the episodes production and by no means is an official name.

And him not changing form could meen that he doesnt have a "infinity" to the Matrix just like Ultra Magnus didnt.

It proves nothing.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I woulded call it an "Almost blob like creature" but thats your opinion.

There's not really much difference between a "mutation" and a "upgrade" when both are being enacted by the same outside source.

The introduction of an outside power source [the Matrix] into their bodies effected a change in their bodies and power levels.

You can call both case's mutations or upgrades in the long run both were changed by the power of the Matrix in a very simular way.Both were changed in body and power levels.

And as I said before this points to the very real possibility that theres a small number of TF's that could be changed by the Matrix since all others that had the Matrix received no change to their bodies or power levels at all.

It may be the same source that caused it but look at how Hot Rod was upgraded and how Scourge was Mutated. There's no way you can say they were both effected by the Matrix in the same way.

Hot Rod was Physically Upgraded, he got larger and was given a new alt mode.

Scourge kept the same form but just mutated weird lumps on his body. I wouldn't call that an upgrade, more like Cybertronian cancer or hemroids.

Thats a matter of opinion.It depends in you consider Galvatrons arm cannon a part of him.

Galvatron did place it inside his arm cannon and doing so did infact provoked a response from the Matrix itself.If you remember the Matrix spoke useing the voices of the old leaders.

The Matrix never in the toon showed any ability to communicate with its bearer or anyone else unless it was inside of some living thing.

The only times it communicated with anyone was in "5 faces of Darkness" while inside Rodimus, "The return of Optimus Prime" while inside Optimus, "The Rebirth" while inside Vector Sigma which is a living computer that also has the living spark of Alpha Trion with in it and in the "Burden hardest to bear" when Galvatron placed it in his cannon.

Other then those times anytime the Matrix was outside a living TF body it remained silent.To me that suggest that placing the Matrix in his cannon was akin to placing it inside his chest other wise the Matrix would have not responded to that action like it didnt respond to being worn around his neck or being held by Wildrider or being inside his car mode.

If Galvatron's cannon is not a part of him the Matrix should have acted like it did when Galvatron had it in the 86 movie....or when Wildrider had it.

I don't even remember Galvatron putting the Matrix in his arm cannon I was only thinking of the time he wore it around his neck and useing that as an exsplination for why he didn't become a blob like Scourge.

Actually the line's spoken were "Reconstructed" not rebuilt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BokzrY7Lpr8
But I've said this to you and here many times......you cant take every line spoken in the G1 toon too literally.If you do then you have to believe that Megatron was "born" like the rest of us were born.They did say in dialog that Megatron was born in "5 faces of darkness".

And the definition or the word "Born" is "brought forth by birth the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring".

And no where in the G1 serries were we ever givven the idea that TF's bear young.So the word "Born" in Megatrons case must have been a "Metaphor.

So the line "Reconstructed" could very well be the same kind of "Metaphor" that saying Megatron was born was.If your going to except that kind of thinking for one line in the serries you have to except it as a possibility for all lines that leave a question about the flow of events.

And thats a case nether of us can prove.And that being said....nether of us can prove that it was or wasnt the Matrix that effected the repairs or the upgrade to Optimus Prime from Orion Pax.

Reconstructed, rebuilt, same meaning, doesn't matter.

There's no metaphor here. It has to be a litteral statement. Alpha Trion doesn't just talk about "reconstructing" him he allso mentions the procedure is an exsperimental process which if it's a metaphor for the Matrix as you say means that Alpha Trion built the Matrix and that no one ever held the Matrix before Optimus.

Allthough considering the series allso marks A-3/Alpha Trion as the first Autobot leader how anyone got the Matrix before him is a complete mystery. In fact it's never even exsplained where the Matrix came from in the first place and there's 2 differnt storys for how the Autobots first overthrew their Quintesson masters. One had nothing to do with the story of A-3.

I guess it's possible the first strike on the Quints by the nameless robot with the spiked shield could have been years earlier before A-3 took command agenst the Quints. But where does the war agenst the Decepticons fit into the story?

G1 Plots make my head hurt.

Elita ! also had a special power [to stop time] and that special power could have also been the result of her receiving some special "Tool" or "Device" much like Optimus did.

The fact is we dont know.Just like we dont know if Alpha did more or less in the reconstructing prossus.Since the scenes were never animated we'll never know.

Elita's power allso drained most of her life force or whatever you want to call it. What's his name, the little raccon looking guy with the clock on his chest in Beast Wars had a more advance version of the same power without the added side effect Elita had.

Saber Prime wrote: It may be the same source that caused it but look at how Hot Rod was upgraded and how Scourge was Mutated. There's no way you can say they were both effected by the Matrix in the same way.

Hot Rod was Physically Upgraded, he got larger and was given a new alt mode.

I guess we'll have to leave this one to each others opinions.While Scourge did not receive a new alt mode he did get larger....you can see it when he's standing next to the other Sweeps.

The way I see it the Matrix was atempting to upgrade Scourge but ether because of his Decepticon heitige of the fact the he also had Unicrons power running threw him, the upgrade didnt take.

Saber Prime wrote:Scourge kept the same form but just mutated weird lumps on his body. I wouldn't call that an upgrade, more like Cybertronian cancer or hemroids.

Funny as hell

Saber Prime wrote: I don't even remember Galvatron putting the Matrix in his arm cannon I was only thinking of the time he wore it around his neck and useing that as an exsplination for why he didn't become a blob like Scourge.

I figured that so here's a pic from the episode.

If you need further proof watch the episode again and you'll see.But it would still come down to wether you think his arm cannon is a part of him.

Saber Prime wrote:Reconstructed, rebuilt, same meaning, doesn't matter.

There's no metaphor here. It has to be a litteral statement. Alpha Trion doesn't just talk about "reconstructing" him he allso mentions the procedure is an exsperimental process which if it's a metaphor for the Matrix as you say means that Alpha Trion built the Matrix and that no one ever held the Matrix before Optimus.

The term "reconstructed" could still be viewed as a "Metaphor" with out having to believe that Alpha Trion created the Matrix.

As you yourself just pointed out the procedure was in an experimental stage and it may be that Alpha had reached a point in his experiment that he could not get pass with the knowlege he had at the time.

So knowing [as he said] that Orion had a very strong spirt within him....he placed the Matrix inside the body of Orion and the Matrix did the rest.

I'm not saying that this happened nor am I saying its my personal belief but you cant say its not possible.They never showed us what really happened.

Saber Prime wrote:Allthough considering the series allso marks A-3/Alpha Trion as the first Autobot leader how anyone got the Matrix before him is a complete mystery. In fact it's never even exsplained where the Matrix came from in the first place and there's 2 differnt storys for how the Autobots first overthrew their Quintesson masters. One had nothing to do with the story of A-3.

I guess it's possible the first strike on the Quints by the nameless robot with the spiked shield could have been years earlier before A-3 took command agenst the Quints. But where does the war agenst the Decepticons fit into the story?

G1 Plots make my head hurt.

They really do hurt dont they.

Anyway I never really saw A3/Alpha Trion as the first leader of the rebel forces.I just saw him as the one that really helped to rid Cybertron of the Quints.

And the war with the Con's took place after a good number of years of peace.They said that in "5 faces of Darkness".If I remember the line's right...."for a time the robots live together in harmony.. but this did not last...the former consumer goods who called them selfs Autobots sought a peaceful existence ...while the military hardwere wanted conquest"

Just how many years in between "harmony" and "conquest" is up in the air.

As for where the Matrix really came from or if it was created by any bot in the G1 toon......your guess is as good as mine

Saber Prime wrote:Elita's power allso drained most of her life force or whatever you want to call it. What's his name, the little raccon looking guy with the clock on his chest in Beast Wars had a more advance version of the same power without the added side effect Elita had.

I didnt know there was a connection between that Japanese Beast Wars character and Elita 1's power.

But that doesnt really effect what I've been saying was possible to have happened to Elita and Optimus.....and in some ways what you just told me helps the issue.

In the Japan Beast Wars there were more then one Matrix......every Convoy in the consul of Convoys had a Matrix but they were not as powerful of completely of the same nature that the original Matrix was.

So in a sense the JBW's version of the Matrix did not have the same effect on its bearers as the original Matrix had on its bearers....just like that racoon guy had a version Elita's power without the added side effect.

Just a thought