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Delete ROTF. Simple. I mean in all honesty, the only thing that would be significantly missing from DOTM plot wise is the rebirth of Megatron from ROTF. I think ROTF ruined the movies for most movie haters...that movie wasn't that great at all, lets be honest here...and Bay could have easily worked in Megatrons rebirth in DOTM, delete ROTF, and that would have been a great sequel. Now I am not trying to pretend that movie never came out, it still exist. I am trying to ask most movie haters this - Do you HATE the movies as a whole, or do you just HATE the fact that ROTF was a horrible movie? Oh, and just a side note, if you do HATE the movies as a whole, then why not hate the Unicron Trilogy? The characters were WAY off their G1 counterparts. Atleast Bay made Ironhide a strong, fearless, tough guy......

primematrix1986 wrote:Delete ROTF. Simple. I mean in all honesty, the only thing that would be significantly missing from DOTM plot wise is the rebirth of Megatron from ROTF. I think ROTF ruined the movies for most movie haters...that movie wasn't that great at all, lets be honest here...and Bay could have easily worked in Megatrons rebirth in DOTM, delete ROTF, and that would have been a great sequel. Now I am not trying to pretend that movie never came out, it still exist. I am trying to ask most movie haters this - Do you HATE the movies as a whole, or do you just HATE the fact that ROTF was a horrible movie? Oh, and just a side note, if you do HATE the movies as a whole, then why not hate the Unicron Trilogy? The characters were WAY off their G1 counterparts. Atleast Bay made Ironhide a strong, fearless, tough guy......

No, really, let's be honest for real; the movie was awesome and still is awesome.

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:Delete ROTF. Simple. I mean in all honesty, the only thing that would be significantly missing from DOTM plot wise is the rebirth of Megatron from ROTF. I think ROTF ruined the movies for most movie haters...that movie wasn't that great at all, lets be honest here...and Bay could have easily worked in Megatrons rebirth in DOTM, delete ROTF, and that would have been a great sequel. Now I am not trying to pretend that movie never came out, it still exist. I am trying to ask most movie haters this - Do you HATE the movies as a whole, or do you just HATE the fact that ROTF was a horrible movie? Oh, and just a side note, if you do HATE the movies as a whole, then why not hate the Unicron Trilogy? The characters were WAY off their G1 counterparts. Atleast Bay made Ironhide a strong, fearless, tough guy......

No, really, let's be honest for real; the movie was awesome and still is awesome.

...no. It sucked, for the most part. It had a few good scenes, but it was a 2 1/2 hour clusterf**k. And I know you love Bayverse and your response is just trying to be flame-bait.

Having said that, I disagree with it being deleted from the series not having impact on DoTM. I had thought of this before, and there are more things than just Megatron's resurrection that would need to be explained. So, let's keep RoTF. If for nothing else, to remind us and the film makers how bad it could be and how not to do it again.

Or just suck it up and get over it. No amount of debating, will change anything. It happened.

Like it, hate it, it happened, plenty of other things in the franchise to drool over.

Burn wrote:Or just suck it up and get over it. No amount of debating, will change anything. It happened.

Like it, hate it, it happened, plenty of other things in the franchise to drool over.

I like the movies for what they are. Could they be improved? For sure. Are they total pieces of crap? No. Its another continuity.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:Delete ROTF. Simple. I mean in all honesty, the only thing that would be significantly missing from DOTM plot wise is the rebirth of Megatron from ROTF. I think ROTF ruined the movies for most movie haters...that movie wasn't that great at all, lets be honest here...and Bay could have easily worked in Megatrons rebirth in DOTM, delete ROTF, and that would have been a great sequel. Now I am not trying to pretend that movie never came out, it still exist. I am trying to ask most movie haters this - Do you HATE the movies as a whole, or do you just HATE the fact that ROTF was a horrible movie? Oh, and just a side note, if you do HATE the movies as a whole, then why not hate the Unicron Trilogy? The characters were WAY off their G1 counterparts. Atleast Bay made Ironhide a strong, fearless, tough guy......

No, really, let's be honest for real; the movie was awesome and still is awesome.

...no. It sucked, for the most part. It had a few good scenes, but it was a 2 1/2 hour clusterf**k. And I know you love Bayverse and your response is just trying to be flame-bait.

Having said that, I disagree with it being deleted from the series not having impact on DoTM. I had thought of this before, and there are more things than just Megatron's resurrection that would need to be explained. So, let's keep RoTF. If for nothing else, to remind us and the film makers how bad it could be and how not to do it again.

Again, I am not trying to pretend ROTF don't exist. It does, like it or not. Plot wise though, if you rule out ROTF and the Megatron Rebirth thing, nothing really changes...Sure, new Autobots. Sure, Optimus has the Matrix, but he always had it in past continuities. I mean they could have simply said "A new team of Autobots arrived here on Earth" in DOTM, and it would explain where Sideswipe, Dino, Que, Wreckers, etc. came from. Unless I am overlooking something, please explain what is so significant (beside Megatrons Rebirth) that is missing?

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:Delete ROTF. Simple. I mean in all honesty, the only thing that would be significantly missing from DOTM plot wise is the rebirth of Megatron from ROTF. I think ROTF ruined the movies for most movie haters...that movie wasn't that great at all, lets be honest here...and Bay could have easily worked in Megatrons rebirth in DOTM, delete ROTF, and that would have been a great sequel. Now I am not trying to pretend that movie never came out, it still exist. I am trying to ask most movie haters this - Do you HATE the movies as a whole, or do you just HATE the fact that ROTF was a horrible movie? Oh, and just a side note, if you do HATE the movies as a whole, then why not hate the Unicron Trilogy? The characters were WAY off their G1 counterparts. Atleast Bay made Ironhide a strong, fearless, tough guy......

No, really, let's be honest for real; the movie was awesome and still is awesome.

It had AWESOME CGI. It had AWESOME fights. It had some AWESOME new robots, but the plot was horrible...yeah, I understand the plot, but there are WAY too many plot holes and confusing things. Do I like ROTF? A little, I thought it was a more Transformer oriented movie, but the plot was sloppy.

primematrix1986 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:Delete ROTF. Simple. I mean in all honesty, the only thing that would be significantly missing from DOTM plot wise is the rebirth of Megatron from ROTF. I think ROTF ruined the movies for most movie haters...that movie wasn't that great at all, lets be honest here...and Bay could have easily worked in Megatrons rebirth in DOTM, delete ROTF, and that would have been a great sequel. Now I am not trying to pretend that movie never came out, it still exist. I am trying to ask most movie haters this - Do you HATE the movies as a whole, or do you just HATE the fact that ROTF was a horrible movie? Oh, and just a side note, if you do HATE the movies as a whole, then why not hate the Unicron Trilogy? The characters were WAY off their G1 counterparts. Atleast Bay made Ironhide a strong, fearless, tough guy......

No, really, let's be honest for real; the movie was awesome and still is awesome.

It had AWESOME CGI. It had AWESOME fights. It had some AWESOME new robots, but the plot was horrible...yeah, I understand the plot, but there are WAY too many plot holes and confusing things. Do I like ROTF? A little, I thought it was a more Transformer oriented movie, but the plot was sloppy.

I don't see how the plot was bad at all. There weren't even any plotholes. Just people making assumptions that weren't exactly clear in the movie, but make sense when you actually think about it. The only problem I have with is is its horrible attempts at humor. But whenever I watch it, I just skip over those parts.

To be honest I dont really have any problems with the first film, sure its is quite a big departure from G1 both in astetic and tone, and there was an element of being cool for cools sake, but there is much to like in terms of humour and pacing, there are also some very cool transformation sequences. With ROTF the major bollock dropped was making Megs subservient to the Fallen, I would have hoped for Megs to come back bigger and stronger, obsessed with defeating Prime, kinda like Galvy was in the UK comics, and keeping Bee mute was annoying oh and more cool for cools sake. then came DOTM, which had potential, I quite liked the moon landing references and the humans working with the Decepticons, but yet again Megs was someones bitch, yet again Bee was mute and the "humour" was just plain irritating, oh and another big dollop of cool for cools sake. So I would not call myself a Movieverse hater, but I do see there were many mistakes made with the franchise and although I enjoy them for what there are they always have a tinge of disapointment to them. Also based on what I've seen from AoE the same mistakes are being repeated.

Exactly

The main problem with this idea is: DOTM dosen't need to be a ROTF sequel to be terrible. DOTM is an epic failure on it's own. So I don't understand why ignoring Transformers 2 should help Transformers 3. I belive that Moon wasn't consider that bad mostly because it was in some area improvet over Revenge.

And if we are ignoring ROTF, why can't we ignore DOTM? It's to early to say it, maybe Age of Extinction could be nice Transformers 2007 sequel (And if not, we can ignore it either...)?

TurboMMaster wrote:Exactly

The main problem with this idea is: DOTM dosen't need to be a ROTF sequel to be terrible. DOTM is an epic failure on it's own. So I don't understand why ignoring Transformers 2 should help Transformers 3. I belive that Moon wasn't consider that bad mostly because it was in some area improvet over Revenge.

And if we are ignoring ROTF, why can't we ignore DOTM? It's to early to say it, maybe Age of Extinction could be nice Transformers 2007 sequel (And if not, we can ignore it either...)?

No, that is not my point. ROTF still exist, I am not trying to ignore it. My point over all, is that I think ROTF ruined it for many people. I don't see what exactly was so ghastly bad about DOTM. Plot was slick, and thorough. Sure, Shockwave wasn't in it that much. Sure, Megatron wasn't in it that much. Sure, Sentinel was "evil", but atleast Megatron had an excuse for being weak - he got the tar beat out of him in ROTF.

TurboMMaster wrote:Exactly

The main problem with this idea is: DOTM dosen't need to be a ROTF sequel to be terrible. DOTM is an epic failure on it's own. So I don't understand why ignoring Transformers 2 should help Transformers 3. I belive that Moon wasn't consider that bad mostly because it was in some area improvet over Revenge.

And if we are ignoring ROTF, why can't we ignore DOTM? It's to early to say it, maybe Age of Extinction could be nice Transformers 2007 sequel (And if not, we can ignore it either...)?

No, that is not my point. ROTF still exist, I am not trying to ignore it. My point over all, is that I think ROTF ruined it for many people. I don't see what exactly was so ghastly bad about DOTM. Plot was slick, and thorough. Sure, Shockwave wasn't in it that much. Sure, Megatron wasn't in it that much. Sure, Sentinel was "evil", but atleast Megatron had an excuse for being weak - he got the tar beat out of him in ROTF.

leakin' lubricant wrote:To be honest I dont really have any problems with the first film, sure its is quite a big departure from G1 both in astetic and tone, and there was an element of being cool for cools sake, but there is much to like in terms of humour and pacing, there are also some very cool transformation sequences. With ROTF the major bollock dropped was making Megs subservient to the Fallen, I would have hoped for Megs to come back bigger and stronger, obsessed with defeating Prime, kinda like Galvy was in the UK comics, and keeping Bee mute was annoying oh and more cool for cools sake. then came DOTM, which had potential, I quite liked the moon landing references and the humans working with the Decepticons, but yet again Megs was someones bitch, yet again Bee was mute and the "humour" was just plain irritating, oh and another big dollop of cool for cools sake. So I would not call myself a Movieverse hater, but I do see there were many mistakes made with the franchise and although I enjoy them for what there are they always have a tinge of disapointment to them. Also based on what I've seen from AoE the same mistakes are being repeated.

Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself.

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:Delete ROTF. Simple. I mean in all honesty, the only thing that would be significantly missing from DOTM plot wise is the rebirth of Megatron from ROTF. I think ROTF ruined the movies for most movie haters...that movie wasn't that great at all, lets be honest here...and Bay could have easily worked in Megatrons rebirth in DOTM, delete ROTF, and that would have been a great sequel. Now I am not trying to pretend that movie never came out, it still exist. I am trying to ask most movie haters this - Do you HATE the movies as a whole, or do you just HATE the fact that ROTF was a horrible movie? Oh, and just a side note, if you do HATE the movies as a whole, then why not hate the Unicron Trilogy? The characters were WAY off their G1 counterparts. Atleast Bay made Ironhide a strong, fearless, tough guy......

No, really, let's be honest for real; the movie was awesome and still is awesome.

It had AWESOME CGI. It had AWESOME fights. It had some AWESOME new robots, but the plot was horrible...yeah, I understand the plot, but there are WAY too many plot holes and confusing things. Do I like ROTF? A little, I thought it was a more Transformer oriented movie, but the plot was sloppy.

I don't see how the plot was bad at all. There weren't even any plotholes. Just people making assumptions that weren't exactly clear in the movie, but make sense when you actually think about it. The only problem I have with is is its horrible attempts at humor. But whenever I watch it, I just skip over those parts.

Almost any movie ever made has some sort of plot holes. ROTF was just...filled with them. Examples - "Ok, lets go ALL around the world to get the Matrix to reactivate Optimus...but wait...we have a shard of the Allspark, couldn't we simply use that instead of finding the Seven Primes?...Wait...Seven Primes? Thought there were Thirteen?...Then Megatron tells Starscream at one point "Even in death, there is no command but mine"...then not even ten seconds later..."My master I have failed you on Earth."...Wait a minute...Where has The Fallen been all these years?...Chilling out, waiting for Megatron to come over and have tea?..."Only a Prime can defeat The Fallen"...So, SEVEN of them couldn't, yet only ONE of them could?...Sure, Optimus had extra power but...still, SEVEN against ONE?...Plus, Megatron killed Optimus, and only a Prime can defeat The Fallen...So...Doesn't that make Megatron a little stronger than The Fallen?...In the final battle, "Bumblbee, take my parents to safety!...But be sure to not tell Ironhide, or any other Autobot to DRIVE me to Optimus with PROTECTION...I think I can run in the steaming hot desert with huge giant evil alien robots wanting to kill me and be alright. Plus, they are too busy killing deceased characters from the fist movie, like Bonecrusher." So...the plot of this movie is easy to understand?...Define easy man...I understand the plot, I get the movie, but the huge plot holes ruin it for me.

primematrix1986 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:Delete ROTF. Simple. I mean in all honesty, the only thing that would be significantly missing from DOTM plot wise is the rebirth of Megatron from ROTF. I think ROTF ruined the movies for most movie haters...that movie wasn't that great at all, lets be honest here...and Bay could have easily worked in Megatrons rebirth in DOTM, delete ROTF, and that would have been a great sequel. Now I am not trying to pretend that movie never came out, it still exist. I am trying to ask most movie haters this - Do you HATE the movies as a whole, or do you just HATE the fact that ROTF was a horrible movie? Oh, and just a side note, if you do HATE the movies as a whole, then why not hate the Unicron Trilogy? The characters were WAY off their G1 counterparts. Atleast Bay made Ironhide a strong, fearless, tough guy......

No, really, let's be honest for real; the movie was awesome and still is awesome.

It had AWESOME CGI. It had AWESOME fights. It had some AWESOME new robots, but the plot was horrible...yeah, I understand the plot, but there are WAY too many plot holes and confusing things. Do I like ROTF? A little, I thought it was a more Transformer oriented movie, but the plot was sloppy.

I don't see how the plot was bad at all. There weren't even any plotholes. Just people making assumptions that weren't exactly clear in the movie, but make sense when you actually think about it. The only problem I have with is is its horrible attempts at humor. But whenever I watch it, I just skip over those parts.

Almost any movie ever made has some sort of plot holes. ROTF was just...filled with them. Examples - "Ok, lets go ALL around the world to get the Matrix to reactivate Optimus...but wait...we have a shard of the Allspark, couldn't we simply use that instead of finding the Seven Primes?...Wait...Seven Primes? Thought there were Thirteen?...Then Megatron tells Starscream at one point "Even in death, there is no command but mine"...then not even ten seconds later..."My master I have failed you on Earth."...Wait a minute...Where has The Fallen been all these years?...Chilling out, waiting for Megatron to come over and have tea?..."Only a Prime can defeat The Fallen"...So, SEVEN of them couldn't, yet only ONE of them could?...Sure, Optimus had extra power but...still, SEVEN against ONE?...Plus, Megatron killed Optimus, and only a Prime can defeat The Fallen...So...Doesn't that make Megatron a little stronger than The Fallen?...In the final battle, "Bumblbee, take my parents to safety!...But be sure to not tell Ironhide, or any other Autobot to DRIVE me to Optimus with PROTECTION...I think I can run in the steaming hot desert with huge giant evil alien robots wanting to kill me and be alright. Plus, they are too busy killing deceased characters from the fist movie, like Bonecrusher." So...the plot of this movie is easy to understand?...Define easy man...I understand the plot, I get the movie, but the huge plot holes ruin it for me.

The humans knew nothing of the Allspark's power to reactivate a spark. And Wheelie was their only source of information, who was a Decepticon at the time.

There are 13 Primes in G1. The movies aren't G1.

The Fallen wasn't commanding Megatron. Megatron is his disciple. And The Fallen was obviously held captive aboard the Nemesis until the line of the Primes had been ended.

I would assume that the Primes weren't very militaristic people. If anything, The Fallen was their only real warrior.

Megatron stabbed Optimus in the back. And just because only a Prime can defeat The Fallen, that doesn't mean only a Prime can defeat Optimus.

Ironhide was out looking for Sam the whole time, anyway. He, Arcee, and her sisters got ambushed by a squad of Decepticons when they found him, and the rest of the Autobots were engaged in battle.

And I'm pretty sure more than one TF can have the same vehicle mode as another.

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:Delete ROTF. Simple. I mean in all honesty, the only thing that would be significantly missing from DOTM plot wise is the rebirth of Megatron from ROTF. I think ROTF ruined the movies for most movie haters...that movie wasn't that great at all, lets be honest here...and Bay could have easily worked in Megatrons rebirth in DOTM, delete ROTF, and that would have been a great sequel. Now I am not trying to pretend that movie never came out, it still exist. I am trying to ask most movie haters this - Do you HATE the movies as a whole, or do you just HATE the fact that ROTF was a horrible movie? Oh, and just a side note, if you do HATE the movies as a whole, then why not hate the Unicron Trilogy? The characters were WAY off their G1 counterparts. Atleast Bay made Ironhide a strong, fearless, tough guy......

No, really, let's be honest for real; the movie was awesome and still is awesome.

It had AWESOME CGI. It had AWESOME fights. It had some AWESOME new robots, but the plot was horrible...yeah, I understand the plot, but there are WAY too many plot holes and confusing things. Do I like ROTF? A little, I thought it was a more Transformer oriented movie, but the plot was sloppy.

I don't see how the plot was bad at all. There weren't even any plotholes. Just people making assumptions that weren't exactly clear in the movie, but make sense when you actually think about it. The only problem I have with is is its horrible attempts at humor. But whenever I watch it, I just skip over those parts.

Almost any movie ever made has some sort of plot holes. ROTF was just...filled with them. Examples - "Ok, lets go ALL around the world to get the Matrix to reactivate Optimus...but wait...we have a shard of the Allspark, couldn't we simply use that instead of finding the Seven Primes?...Wait...Seven Primes? Thought there were Thirteen?...Then Megatron tells Starscream at one point "Even in death, there is no command but mine"...then not even ten seconds later..."My master I have failed you on Earth."...Wait a minute...Where has The Fallen been all these years?...Chilling out, waiting for Megatron to come over and have tea?..."Only a Prime can defeat The Fallen"...So, SEVEN of them couldn't, yet only ONE of them could?...Sure, Optimus had extra power but...still, SEVEN against ONE?...Plus, Megatron killed Optimus, and only a Prime can defeat The Fallen...So...Doesn't that make Megatron a little stronger than The Fallen?...In the final battle, "Bumblbee, take my parents to safety!...But be sure to not tell Ironhide, or any other Autobot to DRIVE me to Optimus with PROTECTION...I think I can run in the steaming hot desert with huge giant evil alien robots wanting to kill me and be alright. Plus, they are too busy killing deceased characters from the fist movie, like Bonecrusher." So...the plot of this movie is easy to understand?...Define easy man...I understand the plot, I get the movie, but the huge plot holes ruin it for me.

The humans knew nothing of the Allspark's power to reactivate a spark. And Wheelie was their only source of information, who was a Decepticon at the time.

There are 13 Primes in G1. The movies aren't G1.

The Fallen wasn't commanding Megatron. Megatron is his disciple. And The Fallen was obviously held captive aboard the Nemesis until the line of the Primes had been ended.

I would assume that the Primes weren't very militaristic people. If anything, The Fallen was their only real warrior.

Megatron stabbed Optimus in the back. And just because only a Prime can defeat The Fallen, that doesn't mean only a Prime can defeat Optimus.

Ironhide was out looking for Sam the whole time, anyway. He, Arcee, and her sisters got ambushed by a squad of Decepticons when they found him, and the rest of the Autobots were engaged in battle.

And I'm pretty sure more than one TF can have the same vehicle mode as another.

- Jetfire was the source of information that explained the Matrix. Plus, humans DO know the power of the Allspark...remember the cell phone that they turned into a Transformer in the first movie?
- The story of the Original 13 weren't even explained in G1, so I wasn't referring to that. Funny, because the ROTF video game said Original 13 primes. Yes, the game and movie has some differences, but its still the same universe.
- The Fallen held captive? By who? He just sat in a chair surrounded with hatchlings. Its not like he was somehow "trapped" there due to Optimus Primes existence...again, if he can take on 6 Primes all at once, I am sure he isn't scared of 1 Prime. Plus, The Fallen had Megatron kill Optimus for him...guess The Fallen is scared of Optimus or something.
- That I agree on, I am sure they weren't expecting it, but you would still think 6 to 1 would win.
- Ok, The Fallen said "Only a Prime can defeat me"...meaning that the only remaining Prime is of coarse Optimus. Meaning, only a PRIME can defeat a PRIME. Megatron, isn't a Prime...that leads us back to "The Fallen being scared of Optimus Prime."
- Well, there was Ratchet, Ironhide, Chromia, Arcee, Elita-1, Sideswipe, and Jolt (the others protecting humans). Now, why couldn't at least ONE of them simply transformed, and went after him? Sure, they were outnumbered, but its still ONE transformer leaving.
- Wasn't just the vehical mode, if you look closely the Decepticon who killed two of the Bike Sisters was Bonecrusher. Plus, DOTM had Longhaul, Brawl, Sideways, and Scrapper...they were dead too.
- Oh, and another question, remember that HUGE gun that shot Devastator? Wouldn't that have been VERY useful if they shot the harvester too? Oh, and that air strike they called that wiped out all of the Decepticons, why couldn't they military have done that sooner?

primematrix1986 wrote:- Ok, The Fallen said "Only a Prime can defeat me"...meaning that the only remaining Prime is of coarse Optimus. Meaning, only a PRIME can defeat a PRIME. Megatron, isn't a Prime...that leads us back to "The Fallen being scared of Optimus Prime."

That is just silly, for me The Fallen could lie to Megatron to secure his position, and even if The Fallen can be killed only by a Prime, then why Optimus should have similiar power? It was nowhere said that Optimus could be killed only by a Prime, so it is not canon.

The Fallen was kinda chained to his throne (for me you shuld ask, why he is in this universe at all!), he could be cursed with some spell, that stand as long as long other Primes lives (Sentinel was in nearly-death stasis lock).

Megatron still was a Decepticon Leader, The Fallen was more his Spiritual Mentor.

As I said in another topic, Megatron's statis and his long time absence was nothing more, but a plot excuse to introduce Sam's Witwicky into action and to explain why Cybertronians are able to scan Earth-Based vechicales so easily. After Megatron was unfrozen, entire thing was abandoned. This is why Megatron Cryostasis have no effect on later plot or Megatron's character development. And this is why Megatron reunion with his Master was so ordinary.

However, still RotF and DotM are bad, there is too big cast, too many real plot holes, too many things not explained and too many motives leading to nowhere. But mostly: Each time they try to make plot more complicated. So we have one scheme after the other, and story become hilarious, since each time they need to change everything we had learned from the previous one.

SlyTF1 wrote:The only problem I have with is is its horrible attempts at humor. But whenever I watch it, I just skip over those parts.

Wow, we actually agree on something!

Truth be told, if all that stupid comedy were taken out, ROTF would have easily been a decent movie for me, with the action scenes being the icing on the cake.

Actually, I'd like it even better if they had toned down the military "asskissery" and "fix-it-all" airstrikes. It was much better in DOTM where the US military was pretty much crippled by superior Cybertronian air dominance, and NEST had to use guerrilla tactics and organized, coordinated attacks with the Autobots to fight back.

TurboMMaster wrote:However, still RotF and DotM are bad, there is too big cast, too many real plot holes, too many things not explained and too many motives leading to nowhere. But mostly: Each time they try to make plot more complicated. So we have one scheme after the other, and story become hilarious, since each time they need to change everything we had learned from the previous one.

Frankly, ROTF had a ton of potential, given the intriguing source material like The Fallen and the First Primes. It was sadly a victim of bad timing given the fact that a strike was going on. O&K had already written a story treatment for ROTF when they were forced to stop work. Bay then had to fill in the missing plot with he knew best and what he thought he knew; action scenes being the former, and comedy being the latter. Well, at least he had the good sense to leave the actual storytelling to the professionals...for all the good it did.

And once the strike was over, they brought in Ehren Kruger to team up with O&K to piece a story together as fast as possible to make the deadline. You know what they say about too many cooks.

Given the circumstances, it couldn't have been much better.

As for DOTM, it has a couple of unanswered questions, but overall, I think it holds up well enough for a typical scifi movie.

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:The only problem I have with is is its horrible attempts at humor. But whenever I watch it, I just skip over those parts.

Wow, we actually agree on something!

Truth be told, if all that stupid comedy were taken out, ROTF would have easily been a decent movie for me, with the action scenes being the icing on the cake.

Actually, I'd like it even better if they had toned down the military "asskissery" and "fix-it-all" airstrikes. It was much better in DOTM where the US military was pretty much crippled by superior Cybertronian air dominance, and NEST had to use guerrilla tactics and organized, coordinated attacks with the Autobots to fight back.

TurboMMaster wrote:However, still RotF and DotM are bad, there is too big cast, too many real plot holes, too many things not explained and too many motives leading to nowhere. But mostly: Each time they try to make plot more complicated. So we have one scheme after the other, and story become hilarious, since each time they need to change everything we had learned from the previous one.

Frankly, ROTF had a ton of potential, given the intriguing source material like The Fallen and the First Primes. It was sadly a victim of bad timing given the fact that a strike was going on. O&K had already written a story treatment for ROTF when they were forced to stop work. Bay then had to fill in the missing plot with he knew best and what he thought he knew; action scenes being the former, and comedy being the latter. Well, at least he had the good sense to leave the actual storytelling to the professionals...for all the good it did.

And once the strike was over, they brought in Ehren Kruger to team up with O&K to piece a story together as fast as possible to make the deadline. You know what they say about too many cooks.

Given the circumstances, it couldn't have been much better.

As for DOTM, it has a couple of unanswered questions, but overall, I think it holds up well enough for a typical scifi movie.

That is exactly the way I feel man.

primematrix1986 wrote:- Jetfire was the source of information that explained the Matrix. Plus, humans DO know the power of the Allspark...remember the cell phone that they turned into a Transformer in the first movie?

They know that it can create Transformers and that's about it. It wouldn't have been able to revive Optimus anyway. When the Decepticons used the shard on Megatron they had to replace his damaged parts first.

- The story of the Original 13 weren't even explained in G1, so I wasn't referring to that. Funny, because the ROTF video game said Original 13 primes. Yes, the game and movie has some differences, but its still the same universe.

No it's not. The games, comics, and novels are different versions of the same story.

- The Fallen held captive? By who? He just sat in a chair surrounded with hatchlings. Its not like he was somehow "trapped" there due to Optimus Primes existence...again, if he can take on 6 Primes all at once, I am sure he isn't scared of 1 Prime. Plus, The Fallen had Megatron kill Optimus for him...guess The Fallen is scared of Optimus or something.

That looked like some kind of life support system to me. Like Jetfire he's old and doesn't have enough energon. So he was laying low until there were no more Primes that could be a threat to him.

- That I agree on, I am sure they weren't expecting it, but you would still think 6 to 1 would win.

I doubt it. If you were to put 6 kindergarten teachers against a Green Beret, I think the Green Beret would win.

- Ok, The Fallen said "Only a Prime can defeat me"...meaning that the only remaining Prime is of coarse Optimus. Meaning, only a PRIME can defeat a PRIME. Megatron, isn't a Prime...that leads us back to "The Fallen being scared of Optimus Prime."

Defeat yes, but anyone could sneak up on a Prime and stab them in the back. Similar to how only a Jedi could beat a Jedi, but a Clone Trooper could easily catch one off guard and take him out.

- Well, there was Ratchet, Ironhide, Chromia, Arcee, Elita-1, Sideswipe, and Jolt (the others protecting humans). Now, why couldn't at least ONE of them simply transformed, and went after him? Sure, they were outnumbered, but its still ONE transformer leaving.

They tried driving there in Bumblebee, but Starscream starting shooting at them. If they were in alt mode driving around in the middle of a battle they'd be a sitting duck and would stand out. If you were in the middle of a battle and had to get from point A to point B would you just run out in the line of fire? No, you'd stay low behind cover and try not to be seen.

- Wasn't just the vehical mode, if you look closely the Decepticon who killed two of the Bike Sisters was Bonecrusher. Plus, DOTM had Longhaul, Brawl, Sideways, and Scrapper...they were dead too.

This confused me a bit too, but it's pretty much the same principle as the seekers in G1. They have the same alt mode and they look almost identical, but they're different characters.

- Oh, and another question, remember that HUGE gun that shot Devastator? Wouldn't that have been VERY useful if they shot the harvester too? Oh, and that air strike they called that wiped out all of the Decepticons, why couldn't they military have done that sooner?

Getting the captain to destroy the Great Pyramid of Giza would be a really hard sell. Convincing him to shoot the giant robot destroying it is a lot easier. Why didn't the airstrike happen sooner? You're just nitpicking, they can't just snap their fingers and make jets appear in the sky.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:Defeat yes, but anyone could sneak up on a Prime and stab them in the back. Similar to how only a Jedi could beat a Jedi, but a Clone Trooper could easily catch one off guard and take him out.

We should seriously end this madness once and for all, so many plot holes, yet some are complaining about the one that they had created by themselfs. THE FALLEN CAN BE DEFEATED ONLY BY A PRIME (and he could lied about that), Optimus isn't The Fallen, there is no single hint that Optimus shares similiar power, then it's safe to say that he can be beaten by anyone (even if it's problematic, due to main protagonist's immunity). It's like with this "Optimus was affraid to use his power in Mission City" stuff: It exist only because some fans just can't accept the way it was, so they add something, even if it's against the facts in the movie.

TurboMMaster wrote:

Evil_the_Nub wrote:Defeat yes, but anyone could sneak up on a Prime and stab them in the back. Similar to how only a Jedi could beat a Jedi, but a Clone Trooper could easily catch one off guard and take him out.

We should seriously end this madness once and for all, so many plot holes, yet some are complaining about the one that they had created by themselfs. THE FALLEN CAN BE DEFEATED ONLY BY A PRIME (and he could lied about that), Optimus isn't The Fallen, there is no single hint that Optimus shares similiar power, then it's safe to say that he can be beaten by anyone (even if it's problematic, due to main protagonist's immunity). It's like with this "Optimus was affraid to use his power in Mission City" stuff: It exist only because some fans just can't accept the way it was, so they add something, even if it's against the facts in the movie.

Suffice it to say, it started out as a cool idea but got too complicated for its own good. With the deadline looming, O&K and Kruger hardly had time to piece the story together, much less concretely explain how and why only a prime can defeat The Fallen.

I think the writers just meant to say that since Primes are regarded as the most powerful bots of their race, it thus takes a prime to kill a prime. I doubt it's meant to be word for word, although the poor choice of dialogue compounded the problem.

Ideally, it would have made more sense if a prime who wields the matrix were the only thing that could kill a Prime. The Fallen, ever cautious, tells Megatron to either find the matrix, or kill the only one who could wield it, namely Optimus, the last prime, so that there isn't even the slightest chance that The Fallen would be in danger.

It would also be sweet irony that killing Optimus actually set the sequence of events that would unite Optimus and the matrix; just like in Kungfu Panda 2 where the peacock seals his own prophesied fate by trying to prevent it.

But I guess such things only work in retrospect.

Optimus didn't put his hand on Matrix until Fallen was already dead. Plus It's Sam is the one who was consider worthy of Matrix. Plus Megatron killed both Optimus and The Fallen (Of course only in The Game, but it's still the same universe and the same rules) and was able to deal propably lethal damage to Sentinel.

For me The Fallen lied to Megatron, in case when Leader of Decepticons start to consider his master as expendable, or it could just be a legend.

TurboMMaster wrote:Optimus didn't put his hand on Matrix until Fallen was already dead. Plus It's Sam is the one who was consider worthy of Matrix. Plus Megatron killed both Optimus and The Fallen (Of course only in The Game, but it's still the same universe and the same rules) and was able to deal propably lethal damage to Sentinel.

For me The Fallen lied to Megatron, in case when Leader of Decepticons start to consider his master as expendable, or it could just be a legend.

Sorry if I confused you a bit there; I was just saying I'd have preferred it if the plot were written that way, so no, it didn't actually happen.

I like your theory, though.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:

primematrix1986 wrote:- Jetfire was the source of information that explained the Matrix. Plus, humans DO know the power of the Allspark...remember the cell phone that they turned into a Transformer in the first movie?

They know that it can create Transformers and that's about it. It wouldn't have been able to revive Optimus anyway. When the Decepticons used the shard on Megatron they had to replace his damaged parts first.

- The story of the Original 13 weren't even explained in G1, so I wasn't referring to that. Funny, because the ROTF video game said Original 13 primes. Yes, the game and movie has some differences, but its still the same universe.

No it's not. The games, comics, and novels are different versions of the same story.

- The Fallen held captive? By who? He just sat in a chair surrounded with hatchlings. Its not like he was somehow "trapped" there due to Optimus Primes existence...again, if he can take on 6 Primes all at once, I am sure he isn't scared of 1 Prime. Plus, The Fallen had Megatron kill Optimus for him...guess The Fallen is scared of Optimus or something.

That looked like some kind of life support system to me. Like Jetfire he's old and doesn't have enough energon. So he was laying low until there were no more Primes that could be a threat to him.

- That I agree on, I am sure they weren't expecting it, but you would still think 6 to 1 would win.

I doubt it. If you were to put 6 kindergarten teachers against a Green Beret, I think the Green Beret would win.

- Ok, The Fallen said "Only a Prime can defeat me"...meaning that the only remaining Prime is of coarse Optimus. Meaning, only a PRIME can defeat a PRIME. Megatron, isn't a Prime...that leads us back to "The Fallen being scared of Optimus Prime."

Defeat yes, but anyone could sneak up on a Prime and stab them in the back. Similar to how only a Jedi could beat a Jedi, but a Clone Trooper could easily catch one off guard and take him out.

- Well, there was Ratchet, Ironhide, Chromia, Arcee, Elita-1, Sideswipe, and Jolt (the others protecting humans). Now, why couldn't at least ONE of them simply transformed, and went after him? Sure, they were outnumbered, but its still ONE transformer leaving.

They tried driving there in Bumblebee, but Starscream starting shooting at them. If they were in alt mode driving around in the middle of a battle they'd be a sitting duck and would stand out. If you were in the middle of a battle and had to get from point A to point B would you just run out in the line of fire? No, you'd stay low behind cover and try not to be seen.

- Wasn't just the vehical mode, if you look closely the Decepticon who killed two of the Bike Sisters was Bonecrusher. Plus, DOTM had Longhaul, Brawl, Sideways, and Scrapper...they were dead too.

This confused me a bit too, but it's pretty much the same principle as the seekers in G1. They have the same alt mode and they look almost identical, but they're different characters.

- Oh, and another question, remember that HUGE gun that shot Devastator? Wouldn't that have been VERY useful if they shot the harvester too? Oh, and that air strike they called that wiped out all of the Decepticons, why couldn't they military have done that sooner?

Getting the captain to destroy the Great Pyramid of Giza would be a really hard sell. Convincing him to shoot the giant robot destroying it is a lot easier. Why didn't the airstrike happen sooner? You're just nitpicking, they can't just snap their fingers and make jets appear in the sky.

- To be fair, Megatron was missing several limbs and pieces. Optimus was just stabbed and then shot.
- When I say the same Universe, I mean the same esthetic. Its obvious that the Original 13 were in thought, so why couldn't they have applied it to the movie? You are correct, the stories are over all the same, but there were many differences. One of them is that the game was better than the movie...
- They looked like life support systems to me too, but if he was the lay low until there were no primes present...again, doesn't that kind of in a way make him "scared" of Optimus?
- Maybe, but your talking about the Orginial 13 *cough* sorry the Orginal 7 *cough* here...if they can travel across the galaxy, build HUGE Star Harvesters, and have abilities...shouldn't they still have the ability to atleast "sneak attack" like how you said in the Jedi/Clone Trooper analogy?
- For Optimus yes, but for The Fallen only a Prime can defeat him...and if we are talking about sneak attacks, again, couldn't atleast ONE of the 6 Primes have simply snuck up on him for example?
- Yeah, but Bumblebee came back and got Sam's Parents and took them to safety. The Decepticons obviously already knew that Autobots were present, and of coarse KNEW Sam was alone and vulnerable. Again, an Autobot could have easily brought him to Optimus with protection rather than going on foot with no defense whatsoever.
- I see what you mean, but they were IDENTICAL in the movies. Atleast the seekers were different characters...
- I wasn't saying they should shoot at the Pyramid, but to simply shoot at the tip of the harvester. You know, what Optimus shot at for example. They tried to get air support before yes, but honestly...that would have been much easier if they tried sooner.