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Va'al wrote:Yes and no.
I can see Dead Metal and your point about more variety once we have a bigger cast to play with. But I also disagree with it.
I believe I could sum up my point by saying that if we have to ascribe gender to Transformers characters, why not just assign it randomly? Megatron could be female, for all we know.
(The IDW dealing with gendering and Arcee, especially the Spotlight, is not a good way to discuss the issue, in case anyone feels like bringing it in to the conversation.)
Va'al wrote:And again, gender is not reproduction-bound. Transformers don't copulate in the human sense, fine, that doesn't mean they can't indentify with the gender spectrum.
My issue is with the associated gender qualities as you described above....
It's a question of normative identification, if anything, and just an easy wait out of a discussion about the values we confer to gender representation.
Va'al wrote:As for Hulk/Strika: I was agreeing with you, but you have now raised a point I want to respond to - The Hulk is still following conventional norms of male power representation. Strika is not.
Va'al wrote:But we seem to agree on the fact that Windblade is an inkling of a step forward for Hasbro, Transformers, fans and parts of society. Good.
Va'al wrote:EDIT: A final point, not from me, but with which I entirely agree.Sprite wrote:I just don't see why some Transformers can't be "female" the way the others are "male". They are technically genderless after all and, Arcee aside, whatever passes for gender comes down to the "pronoun of choice" thing (which is pretty arbitrary). We've got like a zillion Nails who've drifted all over the galaxy for four million years - it's not unthinkable that some of them has adapted the feminine gender as the social norm, is it? And there doesn't need to be made a fuss about it. Face it, any focus on an explanation for gender otherwise is bound to be offensive in some way or other.
Va'al wrote:Dead Metal wrote:For now, could we see the positive in this? Hasbro made a brand new character, a female character, and she's getting a toy. Hasbro has thankfully already gotten ridd of pink and oversexed designs and is moving in the right direction.
Yes, that was my point a while back too (though I also think that the oversexed part will inevitably happen once fans get the figure).
Convotron wrote:It would make more sense for the Transformers to be established with an art direction using androgynous character design, making more sense with the premise of alien/non-human robotic/bio-mechanical organisms. However, again, the brand was developed with the idea of making kids toys that are marketed to boys. This is what brings the baggage of gender roles and values.
[...]
To me, issues with gender role assignment or identification are symptoms rather than the root of a problem. Getting rid of fembots or overtly feminine character designs doesn't address the underlying cause.
njb902 wrote:I think it comes down to this, men are more angular while women have softer lines.
Btw men have breasts as well
SW's SilverHammer wrote:Eat my ass funpub.
Burn wrote:And this is for taking Nemesis Maximo seriously.
*high fives Silly in the face*
carytheone wrote:I can't be assed to do any better right now.
Dead Metal wrote:I never said that breasts are what make a woman a woman, it's more complicated than that. Re-read my post before you decide to put words in my mouth:
Tekka wrote:What she doesn't realize is that Springer actually loves Rodimus.
Handels-Messerschmitt wrote:Dead Metal wrote:I never said that breasts are what make a woman a woman, it's more complicated than that. Re-read my post before you decide to put words in my mouth:
I'm sayin' that a woman can be a woman whether she has breasts or not. They aren't necessary. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm pointing out an obvious fact your use of the phrases "most human females" and "are part of that" gets close to but doesn't outright admit. Much like actual irl people, a transformer's chest status isn't relevant to whether it's a woman or not.
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
Va'al wrote:A brief response to these two points, taken as one:
Yes, that is how the brand started, but I think we can all agree that this is no longer the case. Now, in terms of audio/video adaptations of the characters, there is a problem in terms of voice acting, which will reinforce those characteristics which may only be hinted at in the artwork, for example. The voice will be fairly distinguishable.
Va'al wrote:I do, however, think that the current batch of IDW comics, especially MTMTE and RID, and briefly Beast Hunters are addressing that issue by not making the assumption that genderless means male (Arcee mess excluded). Indeed, Whirl has a holomatter avatar who is female, as does Ultra Magnus - though for different reasons - and the Rewind/Chromedome relationship can be interpreted in several ways. As Sprite pointed out in my citation above, the multitude of NAILs can allow, quite easily, for different societal norms, now that the writers can abandon the original intent, as you put it, of the franchise.
Va'al wrote:How does this tie in with the topic at hand? Windblade is supposed to make an in-comic appearance, and at that point we'll have to see how the character is treated in relation to the rest of the cast(s). I, for one, would like Mairghread Scott to write something about her, as even Barber is not handling Arcee that well, really.
Convotron wrote:Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Dead Metal wrote:Convotron wrote:Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.
Neither did I till he finally made his underwhelming appearance and idw and others acted like that was the greatest thing to ever happen. "Finally a hero we can look up to!", and all he did was cut off an insecticon head, and that makes him the greatest thing since the discovery of fire?
I would like it if she was introduced as being part of the same experiment as Arcee, but took it much better than her.
Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
[lots of images]
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.
Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.Va'al wrote:Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
[lots of images]
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.
Thanks, Sabrblade!
There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.
Tekka wrote:What she doesn't realize is that Springer actually loves Rodimus.
Guess I should have said "rounded" instead, since most Arcee-styled Fembots aren't as square in their limb design.ThunderThruster wrote:Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.
I agree with you on all but Scylla. As it's the animation, it could be disregarded (the toy is a straight repaint), but it does show a sleder waist and a colouration which depict a bust.
It's the same as Minerva, whose toy is a repaint of Nightbeat (another debate for some!), but the animation model is clearly a slender stereotypial femine form.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Dead Metal wrote:Convotron wrote:Incidentally, I don't dislike Drift.
Neither did I till he finally made his underwhelming appearance and idw and others acted like that was the greatest thing to ever happen. "Finally a hero we can look up to!", and all he did was cut off an insecticon head, and that makes him the greatest thing since the discovery of fire?
I would like it if she was introduced as being part of the same experiment as Arcee, but took it much better than her.
njb902 wrote:You guys think that perhaps they might be setting up the transformers to someday actually have a reason to be male or female?
Sabrblade wrote:Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.Va'al wrote:Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
[lots of images]
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.
Thanks, Sabrblade!
There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
I left out Override because a good enough argument could be made regarding the slenderness of that body-type.Dead Metal wrote:You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Dead Metal wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.Va'al wrote:Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
[lots of images]
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.
Thanks, Sabrblade!
There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.
Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.
The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.
Va'al wrote:Dead Metal wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.Va'al wrote:Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
[lots of images]
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.
Thanks, Sabrblade!
There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.
Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.
The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.
I'm not saying the best design for Windblade would have been an androgynous one, I must have not explained myself entirely. I have some issues with the design, yes, but it's actually the face that I find the most 'offensive' - and I'm aware that it could have been much worse!
But about the unrelatability aspect, I'll bring in Rewind and Chromedome again. Or Tailgate. Or Pipes. Were they not relatable? Was there no empathic connection between the readers and the characters in MTMTE? Yet they are genderless.
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
Sabrblade wrote:Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.
Dead Metal wrote:Va'al wrote:Dead Metal wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Sureshock's probably the most memorable of that bunch.Va'al wrote:Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
[lots of images]
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.
Thanks, Sabrblade!
There is more of a variety than we thought, but not in particularly memorable or well known characters (not to me at least), established in the fiction.
You left out Cybertron Override, who like most of the ones you listed, was also designed to be male.
Here's the thing with the design choices in this franchise, Va'al mentioned how the best design choice we could have here was androgynous. I say that would be terrible.
The way it is now gives us much more interesting designs and ways of designing characters, if they where designed with no gender at all, we would be left with something like Neon Genesis Evangelion, and we have plenty of complaining about lazy repaints as is.
Not to mention that taking out the gender and the traits associated with them, would, well make them unrelatable and thus taking out one of the major things this franchise has, they would be too alien, sterile, and strange for us to make a connection to the characters.
I'm not saying the best design for Windblade would have been an androgynous one, I must have not explained myself entirely. I have some issues with the design, yes, but it's actually the face that I find the most 'offensive' - and I'm aware that it could have been much worse!
But about the unrelatability aspect, I'll bring in Rewind and Chromedome again. Or Tailgate. Or Pipes. Were they not relatable? Was there no empathic connection between the readers and the characters in MTMTE? Yet they are genderless.
No you said that would be the best and most logical design direction for the franchise.
The thing with them is, they still look and act like males. In universe they might be genderless, but they still look like guys.
Now imagen if they all looked the same, without any familiar features, would it still have been as powerful?
Say if they all looked like this
Actually, for a moment while looking at that, I thought the bot designs in MTMTE looked almost exactly like that, and they do look very close, but they still look pretty male. But, I think I can see the reason behind Roche's decision for the new redesigns, most of them seem to be going in more of a genderless direction (while mostly still looking male), which is genius considering the themes MTMTE brings up!
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
Sabrblade wrote:ThunderThruster wrote:Sabrblade wrote:The following are all also female:
Not exactly model examples of the typical, slender, feminine body.
I agree with you on all but Scylla. As it's the animation, it could be disregarded (the toy is a straight repaint), but it does show a sleder waist and a colouration which depict a bust.
It's the same as Minerva, whose toy is a repaint of Nightbeat (another debate for some!), but the animation model is clearly a slender stereotypial femine form.
Guess I should have said "rounded" instead, since most Arcee-styled Fembots aren't as square in their limb design.
Tekka wrote:What she doesn't realize is that Springer actually loves Rodimus.
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