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Bowspearer wrote:
You cannot turn this:
into this:
with a mere minor retool. Forgetting about the difference in the shoulders, the chest transforms radically differently, the waist is fundamentally different and the feet/legs transformation is fundamentally different.
-Kanrabat- wrote:TF-fan kev777 wrote:First-Aid wrote:Okay, did anyone else notice that we all get a wonderful shot of Starscreams crotch anytime he sits in that throne? That's unnerving. Couldn't they have put n extra flap in there? It's....weird.
Its kind of like Basic Instinct, but not in a good way...
Goddammit, now I can't unsee it.
First-Aid wrote:Two minor mold changes separate Prowl and Jazz. In both cases the head is attached to the roof/front windshield of the car mode and folds down to reveal the head. The chest in both cases is the front of the vehicle from the doors forward folded at a 90 degree angle. In both cases the feet are formed by pulling the rear of the vehicle- from behind the doors back- down and apart. You can turn Jazz into Prowl by:
1. Adding a hip rotation allowing the waist to turn around 180 degrees so that the rear of the car forms the front of the feet and legs; and
2. Turning the wheels/shoulders on Jazz so that they match the angle of Prowl's.
Structurally, as robot modes they are virtually identical. You can keep the robot portion- the infrastructure engineering, so to speak- the same and simply change the exterior to change one to another. Not quite a "repaint", but much less than a new mold altogether, saving wads of money on engineering and time to produce. The infrastructure can remain the same and only the exterior need change. This is why I say Jazz will come from this basic mold. I have both Jazz and Prowl's G1 figures. They really are not that different.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Jazz needs to have his own mold made for him. To do otherwise would go against the very nature of the Masterpiece line.
Henry921 wrote:and I don't think we've yet reached the limit on ways to use the MP-10 mold.
In that sense, Jazz would still require his own mold since G1 Jazz was still his own mold separate from Prowl.Henry921 wrote:I'm not crazy enough to get into this argument, but I disagree on this point. I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:If they really wanted to milk MP redecos/remolds for all that they're worth, they would have made the Lambor mold be able to work for Sunstreaker. But, they did not, and are even doing the similarly-colored Tigertrack instead to boot.
warzon3 wrote:So I think Prowl should come with Chip Chase....What do you all think?
First-Aid wrote:Two minor mold changes separate Prowl and Jazz. In both cases the head is attached to the roof/front windshield of the car mode and folds down to reveal the head. The chest in both cases is the front of the vehicle from the doors forward folded at a 90 degree angle. In both cases the feet are formed by pulling the rear of the vehicle- from behind the doors back- down and apart. You can turn Jazz into Prowl by:
1. Adding a hip rotation allowing the waist to turn around 180 degrees so that the rear of the car forms the front of the feet and legs; and
2. Turning the wheels/shoulders on Jazz so that they match the angle of Prowl's.
Structurally, as robot modes they are virtually identical. You can keep the robot portion- the infrastructure engineering, so to speak- the same and simply change the exterior to change one to another.
mandingo_rex wrote:I didn't compare the MP line to Binaltech or Classics. I used it as an example of how within the BT line, they used similar engineering from one (the Subaru, for example) and just essentially repeated it (with the RX-8). It was completely new parts, though, yet essentially the same "skeleton" transformation. There's absolutely no reason to reinvent the wheel completely if they create a Jazz in the MP line. They'll likely take a lot of what they learned from the Fairlady figures, and it will reflect in the designs.
As far as Sunstreaker? We won't see a Sunstreaker reusing Sideswipe tooling, I don't think. At least not from Takara. But if we get a Sunstreaker, I can easily see them reusing that Lambo transformation (this is what I meant, I didn't specify because I forgot to include it in my previous post) for Wheeljack. Roof=chest, hood=feet, that sort of thing. I don't recall all the similar G1 transformations, but didn't several of the Autobot cars transform similarly? Granted, feet may have spun around backwards or other things, but roughly there were some similarities in the designs.
Will they reskin it? No, I don't see them doing that or cutting corners. But there are a LOT of changes from the vintage figures to the MP ones. It's not just a simple update on the transformation by adding joints, some parts are significantly different.
Henry921 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Jazz needs to have his own mold made for him. To do otherwise would go against the very nature of the Masterpiece line.
I'm not crazy enough to get into this argument, but I disagree on this point. I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline. There will always be ways to redo Starscream, and I don't think we've yet reached the limit on ways to use the MP-10 mold.
Fanboy wrote:You need to see the figure, feel the figure , lick the figure , be the figure,
And only then can you love mp 01 the way I have.
Bowspearer wrote:Right so in other words, you don't own the figures and have no idea what you're talking about. If you did, you'd know that making claims of them being virtually identical and oversimplifying the transformational differences is sheer fallacy.
The fact is that the chest transformation on Jazz alone is radically different. On Jazz, you have to rotate the waist 90 degrees then slide the hood of the car back over the waist. That requires a radically different torso design to Prowl's.
That's forgetting about the radical difference in the sculpts of even similar parts on both moulds.
Furthermore, if there is such attention to detail in the Masterpiece line that Red Alert has specifically crafted upper arms, then why on earth would they cut such corners with a major character like Jazz?
----
On the contrary, you have conflated the Masterpiece line's approach to the BT line and continue to. Your entire argument is an utter prima facie as you have failed to grasp both the engineering differences between different G1 moulds and the fact that every single Masterpiece figure's transformation has built on the transformation of the original as opposed to simplifying it (in fact the arm transformation on Sunstreaker is similar to Prowl/Jazz, rather than Wheejack). Considering that the line has turned into a gravy train for Takara, why on earth would they go against that unless they wanted to hurt their bottom line. Besides, Jazz has a Stepper retool that can be done from him so he automatically has retool value.
Heck even Red Alert had radically different upper arms to Sideswipe when they could have just used the toy design as an excuse to share moulds. Yet that never happened. That should prove how utterly baseless arguments about Prowl and Jazz sharing moulds is- let alone any parts sharing which cannot be justified as being in the best interests of the figure..
----
You've just completely contradicted yourself here. The entire point of the Masterpiece line has been to produce "masterpiece" versions of G1 toys. As such the retools and reissues will only extend as far as something was a retool and recolour in the original G1 line.
Will we get the likes of Tigertrack? Definitely, as we already are. However we wont see recolours or retools of G1 characters that were not originally retools or recolours.
mandingo_rex wrote:No need to start tossing in legal terminology or "debate team" lingo to try and boost your opinion. This isn't a court of law, and there's zero facts to base anything off from either side. There's no right and wrong at this point, it's all speculation! The difference about a courtroom and this is that in a court of law, you can disprove something. You can't disprove something that hasn't occurred yet, no matter how much you argue the case.
mandingo_rex wrote:Look, I don't care if Jazz gets all-new tooling and hours wasted on semi-redundant new engineering or "reuses" some engineering from the Datsun mold, or if anyone else agrees with me at this point. I'm just enjoying the discussion, as silly as it is. You and those on your "side" of this argument could very well be right and Jazz will share zero similarities with Prowl, but I don't expect that will happen. I actually don't even own the vintage version of Prowl, but I've messed with it once or twice but I do own Jazz, and when I transformed my friend's Prowl, I even recall being like "Oh, it's sorta like Jazz!" The Sunstreaker/Wheeljack example was probably just a bad example. It was a casual one based off first glances with little experience with either vintage toy, so I wouldn't spend too much time trying to deconstruct that example.
mandingo_rex wrote:Look, here are some things I do know, though, that folks keep bringing up from actual "fact" that isn't actually true, no matter how eloquently it's worded or how many debate-terms are tossed in to try and boost the argument. And I can say without a doubt, I know this from the Takara MP track record because I actually own every MP mold release to date...
• The point of the Masterpiece line is not to recreate the vintage toy with "masterpiece" articulation and design. It's to create a "masterpiece" version of the vintage figure AND the Sunbow cartoon appearance. The best of both worlds, literally. Sure, there are a few compromises, but they did a damn fine job finding the right middle ground for most of the MPs. As an example, Megatron is significantly different from his G1 toy, and while he had to follow the original's transformation somewhat, it achieves the visuals of the cartoon much more effectively than the original figure. Sideswipe's shoulders and wheels mimic the cartoon look, not the toy. True, the doors form the arms, but the wheels hide away completely.
mandingo_rex wrote:• I'm not sure that the thing you said about Sideswipe and Red Alert's shoulders made sense to me. Did you mean the vintage figures had different transformations? Because the new ones have new molds for the shoulders, they're not exactly radically different, I don't think. The transformation is the same, and Red Alert has fake wheels on them. That's about it. If the transformation happened the same as the vintage figure, the actual wheels would be visible on both, and would've been the actual wheels on the shoulders, not tucked underneath the arms to form the bot's ribcage.
mandingo_rex wrote:• Ultra Magnus (MP-02) was a total cop-out, and a huge "cutting corners" effort. So much in fact, that I didn't bother with MP-02. True, UM was originally a Prime repaint with a new suit-of-armor/trailer, but the end result looked nothing like Prime in robot mode once he was "suited up". While I do believe (well, really, really hope) that they'll make a new Ultra Magnus with trailer since they did completely retool Prime and not just scale him down (plus, this also milks the tooling for the main market, where not everyone will shell out the money for the Nemesis or "dark awakening" niche repaints), I feel like their efforts so far were just a cash grab. So I do consider that a cost-cutting, lazy cash grab. That's not Ultra Magnus.
mandingo_rex wrote:Now, to jump to the other side, and argue FOR your stance, here's what is actually starting to sway my opinion, and it's nothing that's been said, really, but from the photos posted of the G1 cartoon models...
Jazz didn't have door-wings in the cartoon! And Prowl didn't have shoulder cannons! For Prowl, I think it could just be that they didn't include them in the promo shot, and we'll get them regardless with the figure. (Fingers crossed here, as I like the toy look versus the cartoon.) But it is cartoon-accurate. I think the MP version of Jazz will likely do their best to either hide the doors completely, or have them be able to be displayed with or without, so that little tidbit alone may require a significantly different transformation for Jazz, regardless of the leg transformation difference (which I personally think they have enough room to simply shift things around below the waist and still use a similar above-the-waist transformation for both Jazz and Prowl... but that's with my old thinking).
mandingo_rex wrote:Stepper/Ricochet is also not a huge "repaint" draw from Jazz, I don't think. Sure, he can be repainted, but Stepper isn't anywhere in the realm of G1-must-have like Prowl/Bluestreak/Smokescreen or the Seekers. If they do make Jazz, I fully expect to see Stepper, but not as an individual figure. He's more along the lines of Tigertracks or Sunstorm in terms of popularity, with the exception of Stepper actually having a vintage figure.
Fanboy wrote:You need to see the figure, feel the figure , lick the figure , be the figure,
And only then can you love mp 01 the way I have.
Bowspearer wrote:Henry921 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Jazz needs to have his own mold made for him. To do otherwise would go against the very nature of the Masterpiece line.
I'm not crazy enough to get into this argument, but I disagree on this point. I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline. There will always be ways to redo Starscream, and I don't think we've yet reached the limit on ways to use the MP-10 mold.
You've just completely contradicted yourself here. The entire point of the Masterpiece line has been to produce "masterpiece" versions of G1 toys. As such the retools and reissues will only extend as far as something was a retool and recolour in the original G1 line.
Will we get the likes of Tigertrack? Definitely, as we already are. However we wont see recolours or retools of G1 characters that were not originally retools or recolours.
DinobotSix wrote:guess it's time to click the ol' "If you no longer wish to watch this topic..." link. =) cheers, all!
Henry921 wrote:You can always be counted on to listen to reason, Pryme.
Dead Metal wrote:Have you ever, and i mean ever seen/read/heard something that is completely original and does not copy/homage/pay tribute to something else? Here's a hint: Nope. You never have and you never will.
Bowspearer wrote:First-Aid wrote:Two minor mold changes separate Prowl and Jazz. In both cases the head is attached to the roof/front windshield of the car mode and folds down to reveal the head. The chest in both cases is the front of the vehicle from the doors forward folded at a 90 degree angle. In both cases the feet are formed by pulling the rear of the vehicle- from behind the doors back- down and apart. You can turn Jazz into Prowl by:
1. Adding a hip rotation allowing the waist to turn around 180 degrees so that the rear of the car forms the front of the feet and legs; and
2. Turning the wheels/shoulders on Jazz so that they match the angle of Prowl's.
Structurally, as robot modes they are virtually identical. You can keep the robot portion- the infrastructure engineering, so to speak- the same and simply change the exterior to change one to another.
Right so in other words, you don't own the figures and have no idea what you're talking about. If you did, you'd know that making claims of them being virtually identical and oversimplifying the transformational differences is sheer fallacy.
-Kanrabat- wrote:TF-fan kev777 wrote:First-Aid wrote:Okay, did anyone else notice that we all get a wonderful shot of Starscreams crotch anytime he sits in that throne? That's unnerving. Couldn't they have put n extra flap in there? It's....weird.
Its kind of like Basic Instinct, but not in a good way...
Goddammit, now I can't unsee it.
First-Aid wrote:Actually I DO own both figures which I how I know how similar they are. Yes I am aware of the "extension" of Jazz's chest. But superficially, the figures physically appear very, very much the same.
First-Aid wrote:If you were the average Joe on the street and learned how to transform Prowl for the first time, you could easily assume just by looking at them that they could transform the same.
First-Aid wrote:I premise is that by simply changing the exterior of the MP Prowl version- the car parts so to speak, and by painting a couple parts differently, and keeping the base engineering nearly identical it is possible to reuse the Prowl mold for other figures besides the obvious straight repaints of Bluestreak and Smokescreen (and the inevitable SG equivalents).
Fanboy wrote:You need to see the figure, feel the figure , lick the figure , be the figure,
And only then can you love mp 01 the way I have.
The very nature of the MP line is to take G1 designs and makes them super detailed and as show-accurate as possible with modern engineering. The use of redeco-able molds is just a business strategy not inherently tied to the purpose of the MP line. That's a strategy that is used for far more than just the MPs.Henry921 wrote:Where, exactly did I contradict myself? My point of contention was "the very nature of the Masterpiece line", which I felt was intentionally designed both to select popular characters and molds which could be redecoed and retooled, as indeed, Seekers and OP are, and the Alert/Sideswipe mold has already demonstrated.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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