The Energon Pub

According to Robert Orci over at the official movie message boards, The reason why the Allspark created nothing but "Decepticons" in the movie was not because all of Earth's tech came from Megatron, though he did like that theory. His reason for it was because the Allspark was never meant to create life directly, but instead, was meant to be used on the planet itself to promote the growth of life. By using the Allpsark directly on an object, it is corrupting that power and creating mindless, destructive monsters.

That's kind of what I was thinking. We know nothing about Cybertron, but I figured that, like in the original marvel comic continuation, there has something to do with the transformers being spawned through cell division, perhaps and the allspark pretty much just puts the spark into the body, considering it may have been connected directly to the planet itself to pump sentient life and souls throughout. In the comic, they lost that ability fairly early, so they had to put robots together and use the Matrix to channel life into them. So when you have the allspark giving consciousness and a soul to machinery never meant to be alive in the first place, you get completely animalistic transformers, rather than ones that can make up their own mind whether they want to be good, or selfish. In my opinion, you need someone to put together the body, give it proper programming, etc etc. Or something along those lines.

Or, like any other life form, simply allow them to propegate naturally. There are males and females among Cybertronians after all, and one of the main factors to life is reproduction.

Tramp wrote:According to Robert Orci over at the official movie message boards, The reason why the Allspark created nothing but "Decepticons" in the movie was not because all of Earth's tech came from Megatron, though he did like that theory. His reason for it was because the Allspark was never meant to create life directly, but instead, was meant to be used on the planet itself to promote the growth of life. By using the Allpsark directly on an object, it is corrupting that power and creating mindless, destructive monsters.

I call anything that ORCI say's after the fact BS...I mean come on he has an answer for every giant hole in the story that he helped write....But if he wanted that known, then he should have done that before hand and made all that clear and included in the story to begin with....But instead if you ask me I say he thinks **** up on the fly when people ask him about the simplest **** that he obviously didnt look at....I just wish he would have left it alone instead of trying to elaborate on something that is set in stone already.

There was nothing "set in stone" regarding the reason why everything that was "brought to life" by the Allspark was a monster. It was all just fan speculation. Secondly, a movie doesn't have to answer every little question that comes up. People asked why, and he told us why. If you can't accept his answer, so be it. That doesn't make it BS though.

Tramp wrote:There was nothing "set in stone" regarding the reason why everything that was "brought to life" by the Allspark was a monster. It was all just fan speculation. Secondly, a movie doesn't have to answer every little question that comes up. People asked why, and he told us why. If you can't accept his answer, so be it. That doesn't make it BS though.

but wasn't the reverse engineering reason the one the writers gave at Botcon?

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Tramp wrote:There was nothing "set in stone" regarding the reason why everything that was "brought to life" by the Allspark was a monster. It was all just fan speculation. Secondly, a movie doesn't have to answer every little question that comes up. People asked why, and he told us why. If you can't accept his answer, so be it. That doesn't make it BS though.

but wasn't the reverse engineering reason the one the writers gave at Botcon?

yes....which is why i say everything he keeps saying now like even though it was never mentioned or hinted at in the tons of movie leaks or comics/books "it was really suppose to be like this or i wanted to have this in the film i just didnt know how to do it" is total bs...all he has to say is it looked cooler on screen to have decepticons going crazy when they are born on earth then just quiet autobots, or he could have just said i dont know i never gave it much thought.

bottom line is ths allspark spits out sentient bots....thats its sole purpose to give life from what we have been told....be it on earth or on whatever cybertron was before it turned into the robo-world of the all powerful bots....it still created them and i know it's safe to say the allspark is not the one trick pony that orci keeps making it out to be.

Sonray wrote:

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Sonray wrote:

Insurgent wrote:Allspark created all tf's in the movie continuity.

Which brings up another question...if it has been destroyed, how will new robots be created?

well, when a mommy bot and a daddy bot do some special hugging....

My guess would be that what ever TF's are alive at this point are it. And since we don't know how many left Cybertron, there could be 100's or millions.

But still that basically means its the end of their species. No more TF's can be created....thats a rather saddening prospect because sooner or later, they will all die and there wont be anything left to replendish (sp?) the species.

Barring wars, or accidents, can TF's die of natural causes?

I am not sure. What is their life span? Must be hundreds of thousands of years at least...or are they immortal as long as they arent killed or injured to the point of no repair?

Considering that the TF universe is full of war (thats the main thing that makes the whole franchise exciting so without it TF's would be rather pointless) however its safe to say that every bots life expectancy will be cut short somewhere along the lines....in which case, how will they create more bots if the allspark is no more?

They have been living for more than 4 million years now.

I think they can live forever, unless killed in battle.

Unlike organic life forms, metals and circuitry don't age like organic cells. Although they can corrode and deteriorate, but as shown in the movie, they have some sort of protective force field, which can protect the metals from oxidation and other corrosive processes.

Besides, if parts wear out, they can be replaces or repaired.

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Tramp wrote:There was nothing "set in stone" regarding the reason why everything that was "brought to life" by the Allspark was a monster. It was all just fan speculation. Secondly, a movie doesn't have to answer every little question that comes up. People asked why, and he told us why. If you can't accept his answer, so be it. That doesn't make it BS though.

but wasn't the reverse engineering reason the one the writers gave at Botcon?

Not that I know of. But then again, I wasn't at BotCon. All I know is what Robert Orci said in the Q&A thread on the official movie message boards.

Here is the actual question and his response.;

Originally Posted by MegaGearX
Bob,

Great movie. I'm sorry I thought you guys had no clue what you were doing before. I've seen it with other movie and hought a spade was a spade. I'm happy to say that it wasn't the case here! I've already seen it twice and plan to go again.

1) How come the Allspark created TFs were all Decepticons?

2) WAS there a scene that introduced all the Decepticons, similar to the one that showed all the Autobots?

3) Why did you guys make Megatron stronger than Prime? Is it simply that they are are of the same power, but Megatron is simply a little BIGGER or is Megatron just better than Prime is period? Or was Prime just having a bad fight this time?

4) Was there more Megatron/Starscream insults that didn't make it?

5) Can they do a George Lucas and digitally add more Transformers stuff to the movie on DVD post-movie? This IS ILM we are talking here. I'm talking adding Transformer scenes, dialogue, fights. Making a more gripping Jazz death scene. The human stuff is fine where it is.

6) What happened to Barricade? In the novel Prime clobbered him along with Bonecrusher (which was why he was late). Did he truly escape? Scorponok too? And where exactly is Starscream going?

1.) Prime intended to use the Allspark to repower Cybertron as it was intended. Megatron wants to abuse it by creating Transformers directly, which makes souless, primal Transformers.

2.) No. We wanted to keep them more mysterious, and they didn't have a human to introduce themselves to.

3.) I think a little of both. I agree that Prime should've gotten in a few good hits.

4.) A couple. Yes.

5.) Interesting.

6.) You'll find out, I'm sure!

Here is the link to the Q&A thread for those interested:
http://boards.transformersmovie.com/showthread.php?t=12054

lilcarus wrote:

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Tramp wrote:There was nothing "set in stone" regarding the reason why everything that was "brought to life" by the Allspark was a monster. It was all just fan speculation. Secondly, a movie doesn't have to answer every little question that comes up. People asked why, and he told us why. If you can't accept his answer, so be it. That doesn't make it BS though.

but wasn't the reverse engineering reason the one the writers gave at Botcon?

yes....which is why i say everything he keeps saying now like even though it was never mentioned or hinted at in the tons of movie leaks or comics/books "it was really suppose to be like this or i wanted to have this in the film i just didnt know how to do it" is total bs...all he has to say is it looked cooler on screen to have decepticons going crazy when they are born on earth then just quiet autobots, or he could have just said i dont know i never gave it much thought.

bottom line is ths allspark spits out sentient bots....thats its sole purpose to give life from what we have been told....be it on earth or on whatever cybertron was before it turned into the robo-world of the all powerful bots....it still created them and i know it's safe to say the allspark is not the one trick pony that orci keeps making it out to be.

No, Illcarus, the bottom line is that Fans can only speculate, and if the writer himself gives you an explaination as the reason why something happened, that is the reason.

Personally, I don't like that theory. Otherwise, who would have programed the first transformers away from the animalistic natures? I'm gonna go with the reverse engineered idea. Makes more sense in my mind.

EDIT: Creates souless transformers? The allspark grants them a soul by its very nature. That is what a spark is. A tf soul. I'm sticking with the reverse engineered theory.

It isn't a matter of reprogramming. You're talking as if Transformers are just robots. They are more than that, they are organisms; life forms. You don't program a life form. It's a matter of evolution. The Allspark was meant to revitalize Cybertron allowing it to bring forth life and for that life to propegate. That was its intended purpose. Based upon that, and what we learned from the beginning of the movie, in the ancient past, the Allspark came to what would become Cybertron and seeded it with the capability to bring forth life in the form of robotic organisms. Over time, many of these organisms evolved and developed sentience and civilization. Thus was born the Cybertronian race which eventually split into two factions, The Autobots and the Decepticons, resulting in a war that consumed their planet and a the loss of the Allspark which gave their planet life.

And, no, it doesn't grant them "souls" by its very nature. It granst them a Spark, and that is not the same thing. Also, the term "soulless" does not just mean literally without a soul. IT also means without the nobility of soul. In other words, cruel, cowardly, animalistic.

Insurgent wrote:Personally, I don't like that theory. Otherwise, who would have programed the first transformers away from the animalistic natures? I'm gonna go with the reverse engineered idea. Makes more sense in my mind.

EDIT: Creates souless transformers? The allspark grants them a soul by its very nature. That is what a spark is. A tf soul. I'm sticking with the reverse engineered theory.

Not to question any other part of your post or anything, but to the first part they could have evolved to be less primitive, just like us humans did.

Oh...wait thats right humans didnt evolve according to some people, we were all just part of a big magic trick and mysteriously "appeared".

Tramp wrote:It isn't a matter of reprogramming. You're talking as if Transformers are just robots. They are more than that, they are organisms; life forms. You don't program a life form. It's a matter of evolution. The Allspark was meant to revitalize Cybertron allowing it to bring forth life and for that life to propegate. That was its intended purpose. Based upon that, and what we learned from the beginning of the movie, in the ancient past, the Allspark came to what would become Cybertron and seeded it with the capability to bring forth life in the form of robotic organisms. Over time, many of these organisms evolved and developed sentience and civilization. Thus was born the Cybertronian race which eventually split into two factions, The Autobots and the Decepticons, resulting in a war that consumed their planet and a the loss of the Allspark which gave their planet life.

And, no, it doesn't grant them "souls" by its very nature. It granst them a Spark, and that is not the same thing. Also, the term "soulless" does not just mean literally without a soul. IT also means without the nobility of soul. In other words, cruel, cowardly, animalistic.

Is all that explained in the prequal books? Because I have only seen the movie. Haven't read any other media.
And ok. I was stupid with the 'souless' comment. But that still doesn't explain it. Megatron had nothing to do with creating those tf's in the city. Or that phone dude in the dam. If anything, the ones in the city should have been good by your statement, as BB was in possession of the Allspark. Why would he create evil ones? I know, I know, he didn't mean to, but still.

And I'm sure I read somewhere someone mentioned programming the animal insticts out of new tf's. Must have read that on another window, too many open.

If a spark isn't a tf's soul, what is it?

And you don't need to bold words, I read everything you post.

Insurgent wrote:

Tramp wrote:It isn't a matter of reprogramming. You're talking as if Transformers are just robots. They are more than that, they are organisms; life forms. You don't program a life form. It's a matter of evolution. The Allspark was meant to revitalize Cybertron allowing it to bring forth life and for that life to propegate. That was its intended purpose. Based upon that, and what we learned from the beginning of the movie, in the ancient past, the Allspark came to what would become Cybertron and seeded it with the capability to bring forth life in the form of robotic organisms. Over time, many of these organisms evolved and developed sentience and civilization. Thus was born the Cybertronian race which eventually split into two factions, The Autobots and the Decepticons, resulting in a war that consumed their planet and a the loss of the Allspark which gave their planet life.

And, no, it doesn't grant them "souls" by its very nature. It granst them a Spark, and that is not the same thing. Also, the term "soulless" does not just mean literally without a soul. IT also means without the nobility of soul. In other words, cruel, cowardly, animalistic.

Is all that explained in the prequal books? Because I have only seen the movie. Haven't read any other media.
And ok. I was stupid with the 'souless' comment. But that still doesn't explain it. Megatron had nothing to do with creating those tf's in the city. Or that phone dude in the dam. If anything, the ones in the city should have been good by your statement, as BB was in possession of the Allspark. Why would he create evil ones? I know, I know, he didn't mean to, but still.

And I'm sure I read somewhere someone mentioned programming the animal insticts out of new tf's. Must have read that on another window, too many open.

If a spark isn't a tf's soul, what is it?

And you don't need to bold words, I read everything you post.

I haven't read the prequel either, so I can't answer that. As for Megatron not having anything to do with the creation of the bots in the city, that just helps prove my point. The Allspark itself did that because it was used on those machines directly. IT had nothing to do with Megatron or them being reverse engineered from him. All reverse engineering means is that they copied the technology. They didn't take pieces of Megatron and clone them to make new tech. They simply studied him and used the knowledge they learned from that study to creat our modern tech. That would not cause that tech to be inherently evil. It isn't like his personality was imprinted into every circuit because no part of Megatron was actually used in their construction. Therefore, how can Earth tech being develoed from reverse engineering of Megatron be the cause of the Allspark creating savage machines?

And, a "Spark" is the Life Force; the "Spark of life". All living things have a life force, but do they all have "souls"? Does a plant or animal have a soul, or only sentient beings?

Secondly, Just because someone reads a whole post doesn't mean that they can pick out the important parts, which is what bolding is for: to emphasise the important parts.

Tramp wrote:

lilcarus wrote:

Decepticon Spike wrote:

Tramp wrote:There was nothing "set in stone" regarding the reason why everything that was "brought to life" by the Allspark was a monster. It was all just fan speculation. Secondly, a movie doesn't have to answer every little question that comes up. People asked why, and he told us why. If you can't accept his answer, so be it. That doesn't make it BS though.

but wasn't the reverse engineering reason the one the writers gave at Botcon?

yes....which is why i say everything he keeps saying now like even though it was never mentioned or hinted at in the tons of movie leaks or comics/books "it was really suppose to be like this or i wanted to have this in the film i just didnt know how to do it" is total bs...all he has to say is it looked cooler on screen to have decepticons going crazy when they are born on earth then just quiet autobots, or he could have just said i dont know i never gave it much thought.

bottom line is ths allspark spits out sentient bots....thats its sole purpose to give life from what we have been told....be it on earth or on whatever cybertron was before it turned into the robo-world of the all powerful bots....it still created them and i know it's safe to say the allspark is not the one trick pony that orci keeps making it out to be.

No, Illcarus, the bottom line is that Fans can only speculate, and if the writer himself gives you an explaination as the reason why something happened, that is the reason.

I have to disagree on that one. A good writer will connect the reason to something that happened on screen to make the reasoning canon. To just give a reason without on screen proof is just a poor lack of thinking on the writers part.

The thing is that it does tie into the movie. In the movie, Prime said he wanted to take the Allspark back to Cybertron to revitalize the planet because the planet itself was dying. He also told Sam that Megatron intended to use the Allspark to bring all of Earth's technology to life in order to create a new army and wipe out himanity. Why would Megatron want do this if he didn't already know that using the Allspark directly on an object would create a soulless killing machine? That is how Robert Orci's stetment ties directly into the movie. The movie gives the real explaination, but no one seemes to have caught it. Instead, they focused on Earth's tech being reverse engineered from Megatron. And all that really means is that we studied him and built our tech from what we learned in that study.

Here is a theory: (like there isnt enough of them already)

Maybe the bots created in the city turne dout to be savage, mindless drones because they were more primitive versions of the autobots and decepticons.

They were new life forms, acting entirely on instinct alone. A life forms main instinct and drive is to survive and it will do anything it can to do so. Same thing could be applied to these mindless tf's created in the city?

Tramp wrote:I haven't read the prequel either, so I can't answer that. As for Megatron not having anything to do with the creation of the bots in the city, that just helps prove my point. The Allspark itself did that because it was used on those machines directly. IT had nothing to do with Megatron or them being reverse engineered from him. All reverse engineering means is that they copied the technology. They didn't take pieces of Megatron and clone them to make new tech. They simply studied him and used the knowledge they learned from that study to creat our modern tech. That would not cause that tech to be inherently evil. It isn't like his personality was imprinted into every circuit because no part of Megatron was actually used in their construction. Therefore, how can Earth tech being develoed from reverse engineering of Megatron be the cause of the Allspark creating savage machines?

And, a "Spark" is the Life Force; the "Spark of life". All living things have a life force, but do they all have "souls"? Does a plant or animal have a soul, or only sentient beings?

So the Allspark creates evil tf's. Like I said in my original statement, that could lead us to belive that the Allspark is evil.

An animal is sentient, so it has a soul. As for plants, we can't say unless you can talk to one.

Or do sentient beings have souls? We are controlled by neurons firing in our brains. Basically the same as a robot CPU. Just alot squishier. So who's to say tf's dont have souls? What constitutes a 'soul'? The thing that makes us us. Basically, our spark of life. Where do we get our sparks/souls from. I'm going off on a tangent, I know.

To the Philospohy thread Robin!

Insurgent wrote:An animal is sentient, so it has a soul. As for plants, we can't say unless you can talk to one.

How do you test for sentience? Where do you draw the line?
How do we know animals are sentient if we can't talk to them either?

you can talk to anything, they just might not responed

autobot comander wrote:you can talk to anything, they just might not responed

Good point.

Another thing about sentience is if a human being is mentally disabled, & can't respond, much like a plant, would you call that sentience? If you do then why can't we call plants sentient?

Justicity wrote:

Insurgent wrote:An animal is sentient, so it has a soul. As for plants, we can't say unless you can talk to one.

How do you test for sentience? Where do you draw the line?
How do we know animals are sentient if we can't talk to them either?

Animals have personalities, which means they have souls. If you are just a mindless drone, organic or not, with no sense of logic or right or wrong you have no soul.

Thats my take on the matter of what has a soul and what doesnt.

Just look at your pets. My cats for example, are dumb animals but they both show different signs of behaviour and personalities. I love them both dearly, and they love me.


....ok this thread will have to be moved into the philosophers section soon if we arent careful lol.

Justicity wrote:

Insurgent wrote:An animal is sentient, so it has a soul. As for plants, we can't say unless you can talk to one.

How do you test for sentience? Where do you draw the line?
How do we know animals are sentient if we can't talk to them either?

I class sentient as living creatures that can interact with their environment. We can not talk to animals, but they can talk to each other. I'm not aware plants can. Though they too react to the environment. They grow towards the light. Turn it around, it grows the other way.

Justicity wrote:

Insurgent wrote:An animal is sentient, so it has a soul. As for plants, we can't say unless you can talk to one.

How do you test for sentience? Where do you draw the line?
How do we know animals are sentient if we can't talk to them either?

Sentience is self awareness. It is having a conscious mind and ability to feel and perceive through senses and emotion. Plants don't feel, and don't percieve. They don't have a conscious mind. Animals act on instinct. Most can't differentiate their reflection from another individual. They lack self awareness and consciousness.